Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 06:11:22PM -0700, Jim Lux wrote: I'm not so sure about that, in general. (the access to the public, not the tax funding).. A lot of universities have put badge readers on a lot of areas that one might think are totally public access. Now, they might be wide open during the middle of the day, but at some point, you have to badge in to get access (so that my daughter studying at 3AM doesn't meet up with weirdness, probably). For what it's worth, I know of at least one large public university that does this, but you can get a card issued to you for library access with in-state ID and a credit card on file (for any resultant fees and as a deposit.) Try asking, it might be available to you, even off-hours. They tend not to advertise this option, but it's there in some cases. --msa ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
On Mon, 07 May 2012 16:22:41 -0700 Cliff Sojourner c...@employees.org wrote: not at all. read the summary, they are playing with group delay. And group strange group delay stuff can have very strange effects... IEEE Circuits and Systems had a 20 or so page article a couple months ago on various applications of superluminal signals due to negative group delay. Also, if you read the paper, you know that they are not the first ones who acheived that, but just applied it in an novel way. Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
On Tue, 08 May 2012 01:14:01 -0700 jim s j...@jwsss.com wrote: Hal, others, There were two things that are interesting about this. There was a special about Hawkings theories and a recent turn of heart and theory he had, which hits at the center of the quantum theory involved here. I don't know about that one... Lost track (and a lot of interest) of Hawkings after i found out that his book lacks nearly all physical details and is a pure none techical description of what he's been up to. (if you want to know how to do it better, read The God Particle by Lederman). And being in highschool back then and not having access to the papers i have today, it was kind of disapointing to not know what all that stuff he writes about is really about:) The other is the current groups experience with Rb oscillators and those comments. May be way off track. I was interested there were two frequencies referred to in the news article. So hopefully the full details will be revealed as to what that means and it can be discussed. Not enough in the register article. Are you familiar with coherent population trapping in an A configuration? They are doing something similar. If i understood the paper correctly, they use one laser to seed one ground state (generating an non-thermal distribution), use a second laser to pump the atoms into an excited state. If they now send pulses of the first seed laser, they get superluminal pulse at a third frequency (from the exited state to the second, unpopulated ground state) that seems to exit before the seed laser pulse. I havent read the paper completely and those parts i have, not very carefully either, not to speak that nuclear physics is way over my head.. so i might be completely wrong... Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
On Mon, 07 May 2012 15:16:51 -0700 jim s j...@jwsss.com wrote: Sadly the actual information is behind a paywall. BTW: Little known fact: most university libraries have site subscriptions for the most popular/relevant scientific journals. You usually can access these journals from the computers at the libary for free. (free as in paid by your tax money). Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
On 5/9/12 11:06 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Mon, 07 May 2012 15:16:51 -0700 jim sj...@jwsss.com wrote: Sadly the actual information is behind a paywall. BTW: Little known fact: most university libraries have site subscriptions for the most popular/relevant scientific journals. You usually can access these journals from the computers at the libary for free. (free as in paid by your tax money). I'm not so sure about that, in general. (the access to the public, not the tax funding).. A lot of universities have put badge readers on a lot of areas that one might think are totally public access. Now, they might be wide open during the middle of the day, but at some point, you have to badge in to get access (so that my daughter studying at 3AM doesn't meet up with weirdness, probably). There's also more and more badge access to computers (so that they know you have agreed to the acceptable use policy and/or can pay for your printer output). The need for you badge on campus is so pervasive there are big signs on my daughter's dorm doors did you remember your J-card? (if for no other reason than you can't get back into the building without it, unless you get security to let you in, and if it's sleeting that's miserable) I'll have to ask her about whether there are access controls on online databases. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
On Wed, 09 May 2012 18:11:22 -0700 Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: I'm not so sure about that, in general. (the access to the public, not the tax funding).. A lot of universities have put badge readers on a lot of areas that one might think are totally public access. Now, they might be wide open during the middle of the day, but at some point, you have to badge in to get access (so that my daughter studying at 3AM doesn't meet up with weirdness, probably). Ok.. The universtities i know here in Europe are pretty much open. During the day there are usually no entrance controls, only for special areas like the chemistry labs with the dangerous stuff (but not the chemistry building itself). Of course, they lock the doors in the evening and you need a badge or a key to get in afterwards. But it's obvious why you don't want to have random people being able to walk in during the night... Anyways.. it's getting OT again... I just wanted to say that it's possible to get access to a lot of scientific publications using the university library. Which, at least here in Europe, have usually also subscriptions for people who are not enroled (in Switerland, they are for free, but you have to get a card/badge). Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
On 5/9/12 10:04 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Wed, 09 May 2012 18:11:22 -0700 Jim Luxjim...@earthlink.net wrote: I'm not so sure about that, in general. (the access to the public, not the tax funding).. A lot of universities have put badge readers on a lot of areas that one might think are totally public access. Now, they might be wide open during the middle of the day, but at some point, you have to badge in to get access (so that my daughter studying at 3AM doesn't meet up with weirdness, probably). Ok.. The universtities i know here in Europe are pretty much open. During the day there are usually no entrance controls, only for special areas like the chemistry labs with the dangerous stuff (but not the chemistry building itself). Of course, they lock the doors in the evening and you need a badge or a key to get in afterwards. But it's obvious why you don't want to have random people being able to walk in during the night... Anyways.. it's getting OT again... I just wanted to say that it's possible to get access to a lot of scientific publications using the university library. Which, at least here in Europe, have usually also subscriptions for people who are not enroled (in Switerland, they are for free, but you have to get a card/badge). Because folks DO want to get those papers.. I talked to my daughter tonight.. At Johns Hopkins (probably typical of big uni in a urban area)... during the day, you have to show some sort of ID to get in (not college ID, just some sort of ID), at night, uni ID swiped in the badge reader. Some journals are unrestricted, others you need to have a JHU id to get access to. Depends on the journal. social science (unlikely to be of extreme interest to time-nuts, unless looking up behavior of mailing lists) are more likely to be in the must be staff/student bucket. hard science technical journals are more wide open. If you want to print, you need to have the special debit card (which anyone can buy and load with cash) In the U.S., local municipal/county libraries can usually request bound journals from other libraries for free (or nominal charge). That probably works pretty well for things in the greater than 10 but less than 30 years old. Newer stuff is online, and there aren't any bound copies. older stuff has been scrapped to save space. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
Observed phenomena which verify or demonstrate this impact some theories related to how the quantum effects govern areas around black holes. Since they are only observable from their effects, and the theories about the causes of these effects are used to explain these observations, anything that messes with this area is very important. the conservation of information or entropy is currently at the center of several key debates about what black holes are and the nature of the universe and origins. I suspect that this may be why such basic research is being pursued, not just for the H of it. I'm way off the game of these theories, and people here will know better than I, but the research is of interest. As I've said in other discussion groups it is sad that the politics seem to have smeared all of scientific method, and everything has to be examined like this with assumptions up front. At least let someone claim that this affects climate change before you condemn it or make a comment like this. Jim On 5/7/2012 6:38 PM, Tom Knox wrote: Yea NIST and JILA keep pushing pseudo science, and they keep on recieveing the Noble Prize in Physics for these ideas. Thomas Knox ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
j...@jwsss.com said: At least let someone claim that this affects climate change before you condemn it or make a comment like this. On 5/7/2012 6:38 PM, Tom Knox wrote: Yea NIST and JILA keep pushing pseudo science, and they keep on recieveing the Noble Prize in Physics for these ideas. I read Tom's comment as tongue in cheek. (I admit I had to google for JILA. I do have friends who live withing walking/biking distance of NIST in Boulder.) A quick google finds that NIST has 3 Nobel prizes. (all in physics) http://www.nist.gov/pml/news/index.cfm In my opinion, that's way above any threshold for serious good work. (I wonder how many of their important papers I could understand?) Has anybody read the Phys Rev paper that started this discussion? (The one behind the paywall.) Can you translate it to something us mortals can understand? - Maybe we should lobby for a prize in timekeeping. :) -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
Hal, others, There were two things that are interesting about this. There was a special about Hawkings theories and a recent turn of heart and theory he had, which hits at the center of the quantum theory involved here. The other is the current groups experience with Rb oscillators and those comments. May be way off track. I was interested there were two frequencies referred to in the news article. So hopefully the full details will be revealed as to what that means and it can be discussed. Not enough in the register article. If I mistook comments, my apologies. Three other lists I'm on are off on silly tangents, and this is one list where we are not. Very informed and interesting group here. thanks Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
Hal, Excellent comment! In some sense, success is related to the number of people signed up. Yes, in the same sense that happiness is related to the money you have. It is possible to have too many or too much. Human nature includes Look at me, Ma. Look at me! Most pros can stifle that. People grow out of behaviors at different times, or not ever. The bigger the list, the more people under the skirts of the bell curve. Seems like many lists where members are acquainted with Ohm's law will fall into audiophile bashing at the drop of an extravagantly priced widget. Possibly to show the group I'm smarter than that! A possible way to select messages that stay on topic is to filter out those that don't have time in the text. If you believe your message is on-topic but time isn't mentioned, add Ob time-nuts: (Obligatory) and some words about time. It won't get them all because the word is common, but it might slow them down. I have wondered if part of the problem is that the list is set to only reply to the list. You have to work to get an individual address for an individual reply. Every list seems to have people who don't or can't edit their replies. I get the whole list first and skim it to find the interesting bits, then read them and let the rest go to an Outlook archive. I have trouble throwing away things that might be useful some day. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Hal Murray Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 10:45 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type c...@employees.org said: one more thing, people need to learn to hit the delete key if they don't like a particular email. get over it. I don't think that's a reasonable approach. Yes, of course, we should all be more tolerant. But that's only half the story. There is an interesting problem with technical discussion lists, bboards, usenet groups, web forums, whatevers. In some sense, success is related to the number of people signed up. On the other hand, once you get enough people, the signal to noise ratio often falls off a cliff. A (strong) hint of the problem is bursts of noise like the recent events here. The problem with saying just-hit-delete is that many of the people with technical skills/opinions/ideas that I want to hear from are not very tolerant of low signal/noise. So they leave the group rather than pound on their delete key. I think there is a fundamental truth for this area. It may be a physical constant. It's at least a good PhD topic. For any large list there will be some amount of traffic (like this message) that is grumbling about the bad traffic on the list. At best, it's the list operator/moderator occasionally (preemptively?) reminding people to stay on topic. It's something like 1/e for the max throughput of an Aloha network. If you beat up on the noisy people so they are less noisy, the list will grow to include enough new people to fill in the spots that were previously quiet. It would be interesting to study the timing of the noise bursts and/or the relation to people signing up or leaving a list. I've seen similar problems in standards groups. Initially, the group is full of smart geeks with good ideas. They are cooperating to try to solve an interesting problem. Then some not-so-sharp guy gets sent to make sure his company's products are blessed. As the group turns to politics, the smart guys leave, their company sends a lawyer to replace them, and things spiral downhill. -- One thing that might help is if everybody would get in the habit of scanning all their mail before responding to anything. The idea is that if a discussion explodes while you are sleeping (or away from your mail for whatever reason), you will learn that a topic has exploded before you contribute your wise-ass or me-too comment. Even if your answer is technical and valuable, you might notice that somebody has already said exactly what you were about to say. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
So it is not scientific information..just pseudo science.. like I travelled back in Time yesterday !! But then I woke up. Another cold fusion.. Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: jim s j...@jwsss.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 11:16 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type This is a note on a site about some experiments to transmit information faster than light. It fiddles with some definitions in the speed of light restrictions in quantum theory. the reason I am posting here is that it used Rubidium beams. The actual publications may be of interest to those who use such around here. Sadly the actual information is behind a paywall. Jim http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/07/faster_than_light_quantum/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
not at all. read the summary, they are playing with group delay. oh and by the way, there is some effect working with cold fusion. we don't know what it is. that's why it's called basic research. if we knew what we were doing it wouldn't be called research one more thing, people need to learn to hit the delete key if they don't like a particular email. get over it. Cliff K6CLS On 2012-05-07 16:13, Alan Melia wrote: So it is not scientific information..just pseudo science.. like I travelled back in Time yesterday !! But then I woke up. Another cold fusion.. Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: jim sj...@jwsss.com To:time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 11:16 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type This is a note on a site about some experiments to transmit information faster than light. It fiddles with some definitions in the speed of light restrictions in quantum theory. the reason I am posting here is that it used Rubidium beams. The actual publications may be of interest to those who use such around here. Sadly the actual information is behind a paywall. Jim http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/07/faster_than_light_quantum/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
MMmmm I still thing that NIST should know better it obviously getting near appropriations time I think you call it !! It is not a connector that is loose this time! I may have access to Phys Rev Letters. Alan - Original Message - From: Cliff Sojourner c...@employees.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 12:22 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type not at all. read the summary, they are playing with group delay. oh and by the way, there is some effect working with cold fusion. we don't know what it is. that's why it's called basic research. if we knew what we were doing it wouldn't be called research one more thing, people need to learn to hit the delete key if they don't like a particular email. get over it. Cliff K6CLS On 2012-05-07 16:13, Alan Melia wrote: So it is not scientific information..just pseudo science.. like I travelled back in Time yesterday !! But then I woke up. Another cold fusion.. Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: jim sj...@jwsss.com To:time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 11:16 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type This is a note on a site about some experiments to transmit information faster than light. It fiddles with some definitions in the speed of light restrictions in quantum theory. the reason I am posting here is that it used Rubidium beams. The actual publications may be of interest to those who use such around here. Sadly the actual information is behind a paywall. Jim http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/07/faster_than_light_quantum/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
Yea NIST and JILA keep pushing pseudo science, and they keep on recieveing the Noble Prize in Physics for these ideas. Thomas Knox From: alan.me...@btinternet.com To: jwsm...@jwsss.com; time-nuts@febo.com Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 00:13:44 +0100 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type So it is not scientific information..just pseudo science.. like I travelled back in Time yesterday !! But then I woke up. Another cold fusion.. Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: jim s j...@jwsss.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 11:16 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type This is a note on a site about some experiments to transmit information faster than light. It fiddles with some definitions in the speed of light restrictions in quantum theory. the reason I am posting here is that it used Rubidium beams. The actual publications may be of interest to those who use such around here. Sadly the actual information is behind a paywall. Jim http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/07/faster_than_light_quantum/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
c...@employees.org said: one more thing, people need to learn to hit the delete key if they don't like a particular email. get over it. I don't think that's a reasonable approach. Yes, of course, we should all be more tolerant. But that's only half the story. There is an interesting problem with technical discussion lists, bboards, usenet groups, web forums, whatevers. In some sense, success is related to the number of people signed up. On the other hand, once you get enough people, the signal to noise ratio often falls off a cliff. A (strong) hint of the problem is bursts of noise like the recent events here. The problem with saying just-hit-delete is that many of the people with technical skills/opinions/ideas that I want to hear from are not very tolerant of low signal/noise. So they leave the group rather than pound on their delete key. I think there is a fundamental truth for this area. It may be a physical constant. It's at least a good PhD topic. For any large list there will be some amount of traffic (like this message) that is grumbling about the bad traffic on the list. At best, it's the list operator/moderator occasionally (preemptively?) reminding people to stay on topic. It's something like 1/e for the max throughput of an Aloha network. If you beat up on the noisy people so they are less noisy, the list will grow to include enough new people to fill in the spots that were previously quiet. It would be interesting to study the timing of the noise bursts and/or the relation to people signing up or leaving a list. I've seen similar problems in standards groups. Initially, the group is full of smart geeks with good ideas. They are cooperating to try to solve an interesting problem. Then some not-so-sharp guy gets sent to make sure his company's products are blessed. As the group turns to politics, the smart guys leave, their company sends a lawyer to replace them, and things spiral downhill. -- One thing that might help is if everybody would get in the habit of scanning all their mail before responding to anything. The idea is that if a discussion explodes while you are sleeping (or away from your mail for whatever reason), you will learn that a topic has exploded before you contribute your wise-ass or me-too comment. Even if your answer is technical and valuable, you might notice that somebody has already said exactly what you were about to say. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
On 5/7/12 8:45 PM, Hal Murray wrote: One thing that might help is if everybody would get in the habit of scanning all their mail before responding to anything. The idea is that if a discussion explodes while you are sleeping (or away from your mail for whatever reason), you will learn that a topic has exploded before you contribute your wise-ass or me-too comment. Even if your answer is technical and valuable, you might notice that somebody has already said exactly what you were about to say. AN interesting comment.. I wonder if the nature of email and how it gets read has any effect on usenet lists. Think back to expensive dialup days.. you'd dial up, download the batch, and then hangup. So you'd go through all the mail (almost like a digest) before responding. Now zap forward and you're reading on an iPhone, which tends to promote a more interactive style of usage. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
On 5/7/2012 7:22 PM, Cliff Sojourner wrote: one more thing, people need to learn to hit the delete key if they don't like a particular email. I prefer to simply subscribe to low noise sources, where I'm not required to get manually intervene. get over it. Don't tell me what to do. Get over yourself. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
jim...@earthlink.net said: I wonder if the nature of email and how it gets read has any effect on usenet lists. Think back to expensive dialup days.. you'd dial up, download the batch, and then hangup. So you'd go through all the mail (almost like a digest) before responding. I think that depends upon the individual. Do you scan everything before responding, or do you process (and respond) to messages one at a time as you first read them? Now zap forward and you're reading on an iPhone, which tends to promote a more interactive style of usage. Are smart phone mail GUIs buggy/broken? Do they show you that there are N more messages in this thread before you get a chance to respond? Maybe we need to beat on people with phones and get them to wait until they get home to a real mail system before they respond to anything that will go to a large list. How about politely rejecting anything that includes Sent from my unless there is a magic word in the Subject? -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
