Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Magnus Danielson wrote: So far: UTC based: France, Sweden GMT based (UT1?): Great Brittian, Denmark I suspect several countries (such as US, Germany etc. etc) to be UTC based, but I do not know for sure. Norway is UTC-based as of 2008-01-01. The law on units, measurements and standard time: http://www.lovdata.no/all/tl-20070126-004-002.html#6 |§6 Normaltiden i Norge er én time foran koordinert | universaltid (UTC+1). | Kongen kan fastsette en avvikende normaltid for særskilte | årstider. (rough translation): «The standard time of Norway is _one_ hour ahead of coordinated universal time (UTC+1). The King (i.e the cabinet) can decide to deviate and establish another standard time for given seasons (i.e daylight savings time)» Before this, we had the Log um sams normaltid fyr kongeriket Norig from 1894, which was based on an understanding of GMT, but not very scientifically written: «Fraa den 1ste januar 1895 skal mideltidi fyr den meridianen, som ligg 15 grader austanfyr Greenwich, vera det loglege klokkeslætte i Norig.» translated: «From the 1st of January 1895, the mean time for that meridian, that is 15 degrees east of Greenwich, be the legal time in Norway» --Magne ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Hei Magne! Magne Mæhre wrote: Magnus Danielson wrote: So far: UTC based: France, Sweden GMT based (UT1?): Great Brittian, Denmark I suspect several countries (such as US, Germany etc. etc) to be UTC based, but I do not know for sure. Norway is UTC-based as of 2008-01-01. The law on units, measurements and standard time: http://www.lovdata.no/all/tl-20070126-004-002.html#6 |§6 Normaltiden i Norge er én time foran koordinert | universaltid (UTC+1). | Kongen kan fastsette en avvikende normaltid for særskilte | årstider. (rough translation): «The standard time of Norway is _one_ hour ahead of coordinated universal time (UTC+1). The King (i.e the cabinet) can decide to deviate and establish another standard time for given seasons (i.e daylight savings time)» Clear enought. I assume there is a summer-time writing in there somewhere. Before this, we had the Log um sams normaltid fyr kongeriket Norig from 1894, which was based on an understanding of GMT, but not very scientifically written: «Fraa den 1ste januar 1895 skal mideltidi fyr den meridianen, som ligg 15 grader austanfyr Greenwich, vera det loglege klokkeslætte i Norig.» translated: «From the 1st of January 1895, the mean time for that meridian, that is 15 degrees east of Greenwich, be the legal time in Norway» This is the same type of language used in the Danish law from the same vintage. It is a good example of how indirect reference to GMT may be written. L2C capable receivers should be able to realize UT1 from the CNAV data along with a number of other related timescales. We have 6 out of 31 sats giving us this, so there should be no long gaps when this info is not available. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Jim Palfreyman skrev: In Australia, each state or territory defines its own time. I've scanned the Australian legal database and found bills for all states and territories defining time relative to UTC. So you can put the whole of Australia definitely in the UTC pile. OK, thanks Jim. Hmm... it is certainly piling up here... *Magnus looks at the corner of his desk where a varity of countries is piled in a jumble onto each other* Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Magnus, On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 00:16:10 +0100, Magnus Danielson wrote: the legal time for Germany (done via DCF77) , as defined in the german 'Zeitgesetz' as summarized here: http: //www.ptb.de/de/org/4/44/441/dars.htm English version is on http://www.ptb.de/en/org/4/44/441/_index.htm Thank you for this hint, it makes international discussion easier. If I interprete correct, this part implies clearly that MEZ = CET i s based fix on UTC ! I can derive therefore that all countries using officially CET are fixed to UTC as well !! Be careful not to use language in one countries law to be used in interpretation of another countries law. It could help you to get a clue of what they mean, but it could lead you up the wrong tree. I see the point, I have to admit it is true as laws are seldom related to mathematics and national laws are not comitting other countries. Cheers Magnus Arnold ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Arnold, Arnold Tibus skrev: Magnus, On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 00:16:10 +0100, Magnus Danielson wrote: the legal time for Germany (done via DCF77) , as defined in the german 'Zeitgesetz' as summarized here: http: //www.ptb.de/de/org/4/44/441/dars.htm English version is on http://www.ptb.de/en/org/4/44/441/_index.htm Thank you for this hint, it makes international discussion easier. Certainly. I am quite sure I could get local assistance to German, but others might not be as lucky when they need to. It's handy that the actual law is available as PDF. Be careful not to use language in one countries law to be used in interpretation of another countries law. It could help you to get a clue of what they mean, but it could lead you up the wrong tree. I see the point, I have to admit it is true as laws are seldom related to mathematics and national laws are not comitting other countries. Indeed. They are supposed to be self-standing texts to a much higher degree than scientific papers. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
In message 49c17d52.6050...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: Last time I checked, Gudhjem is the home of 777 soles. I doubt that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sole_(fish) It is a bit humours that the Danish translation of the EC Directive on summer-time shifts defines the shifts between summer and winter time as occuring at certain UTC times where as only GMT based times is legally acknowledged in Denmark. Lovely. :) The real fun, is that the government finds itself unable to run a public NTP server, because it would dole out non-legal time. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
FWIW.. When I worked for Zyfer, we sold a system to a military customer who wanted to distribute NTP to various clients, but using two reference NTP sources - one running UTC and one set to run GPS time. Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of M. Warner Losh Sent: 19 March 2009 00:20 To: time-nuts@febo.com; mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks In message: 49c17d52.6050...@rubidium.dyndns.org Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes: : I am still wondering who would set up NTP servers that provides UT1 time : in order to realize GMT over NTP. It would not be all that difficult as : UTC-UT1R is published regularly with advance estimates which could be : smoothed out and interpolated properly. I've never heard of such a beast... At least there wouldn't be any leap seconds in that kind of setup :) Warner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 00:04:51 +0100, Magnus Danielson wrote: Arnold, To remove another questionmark partly: I suspect several countries (such as US, Germany etc. etc) to be UTC based, but I do not know for sure. The german time is fixed by law to MEZ=CET, the Central European Time, which again is fixed by the same law to the Universal Time Coordinated (UTC) as MEZ = UTC+1h. Many thanks! If you have web-pointers to the respective texts let me know. Of course Magnus, no problem. But it would be helpful to be multilingual, because such laws are very seldom translated: Easier to start from the rear: The german PTB is charged to distribute the legal time for Germany (done via DCF77) , as defined in the german 'Zeitgesetz' as summarized here: http: //www.ptb.de/de/org/4/44/441/dars.htm Das Zeitgesetz von 1978 (Bundesgesetzblatt 1978, Teil I, S. 1110-), zuletzt geändert durch Artikel 1 des Gesetzes vom 11. Juli 2008 (BGBl. Teil I, S. 1185) und nun umfassend Einheiten- und Zeitgesetz genannt, legt u. a. die gesetzliche Zeit in Deutschland und die Rolle der PTB fest. Interesting statement in that law (excerpt) : § 4 Gesetzliche Zeit (1) Die gesetzliche Zeit ist die mitteleuropäische Zeit. Diese ist bestimmt durch die koordinierte Weltzeit unter Hinzufügung einer Stunde. If I interprete correct, this part implies clearly that MEZ = CET i s based fix on UTC ! I can derive therefore that all countries using officially CET are fixed to UTC as well !! According to the pic showing the time zones (annex: Les fuseaux horaires et les décalages par pays au 1 juin 2000 Crédit: H.M.N.A.O.) most countries are affixed to UTC. Well, it may not be exactly right... On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 00:11:22 +0100, Magnus Danielson wrote: If you look at the map Arnold linked to, you will see that France sits very neatly into the Zulu-timezone. Infact, France is better served by it then GB. I have enjoyed the incorrectness of France time-zone-wise on my many travels to France, so I am not complaining from a practical point of view, but it would not be my first choice if I would choose something for France. Map: http://media4.obspm.fr/public/amc/images/mesure-temps/images/849.gif everything possible, because as already mentied in this thread, most people may still not have understood the 'fine differences', I doubt it at least for most politicians ... ;-) (perhaps some countries do really use today UTC and did not change the expression 'GMT' in their law for that reason incl. Denmark?) Anyway, if one is interested to have that a. m. 'french' time zone map in english and in very high resolution, have a look here: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/world_tzones.php or directly download: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/graphics/TimeZoneMap0802.png http://aa.usno.navy.mil/graphics/TimeZoneMap0802.jpg regards Arnold ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Poul-Henning Kamp skrev: In message 49c17d52.6050...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: Last time I checked, Gudhjem is the home of 777 soles. I doubt that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sole_(fish) You should complain on my spelling... I knew something was fishy... I naturally meant 777 souls... darn. It is a bit humours that the Danish translation of the EC Directive on summer-time shifts defines the shifts between summer and winter time as occuring at certain UTC times where as only GMT based times is legally acknowledged in Denmark. Lovely. :) The real fun, is that the government finds itself unable to run a public NTP server, because it would dole out non-legal time. Exactly. This is why this IS an interesting topic. This is why I propose bastard NTP servers that provide UT1 rather than UTC. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Arnold Tibus skrev: On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 00:04:51 +0100, Magnus Danielson wrote: Arnold, To remove another questionmark partly: I suspect several countries (such as US, Germany etc. etc) to be UTC based, but I do not know for sure. The german time is fixed by law to MEZ=CET, the Central European Time, which again is fixed by the same law to the Universal Time Coordinated (UTC) as MEZ = UTC+1h. Many thanks! If you have web-pointers to the respective texts let me know. Of course Magnus, no problem. But it would be helpful to be multilingual, because such laws are very seldom translated: Easier to start from the rear: The german PTB is charged to distribute the legal time for Germany (done via DCF77) , as defined in the german 'Zeitgesetz' as summarized here: http: //www.ptb.de/de/org/4/44/441/dars.htm English version is on http://www.ptb.de/en/org/4/44/441/_index.htm Das Zeitgesetz von 1978 (Bundesgesetzblatt 1978, Teil I, S. 1110-), zuletzt geändert durch Artikel 1 des Gesetzes vom 11. Juli 2008 (BGBl. Teil I, S. 1185) und nun umfassend Einheiten- und Zeitgesetz genannt, legt u. a. die gesetzliche Zeit in Deutschland und die Rolle der PTB fest. Interesting statement in that law (excerpt) : § 4 Gesetzliche Zeit (1) Die gesetzliche Zeit ist die mitteleuropäische Zeit. Diese ist bestimmt durch die koordinierte Weltzeit unter Hinzufügung einer Stunde. If I interprete correct, this part implies clearly that MEZ = CET i s based fix on UTC ! I can derive therefore that all countries using officially CET are fixed to UTC as well !! I now see the passage which I is to be interprented as UTC - koordinierte Weltzeit - Coordinated Universal Time. From the above page the actual law text is available in full on the first resource-link. Be careful not to use language in one countries law to be used in interpretation of another countries law. It could help you to get a clue of what they mean, but it could lead you up the wrong tree. According to the pic showing the time zones (annex: Les fuseaux horaires et les décalages par pays au 1 juin 2000 Crédit: H.M.N.A.O.) most countries are affixed to UTC. Well, it may not be exactly right... On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 00:11:22 +0100, Magnus Danielson wrote: If you look at the map Arnold linked to, you will see that France sits very neatly into the Zulu-timezone. Infact, France is better served by it then GB. I have enjoyed the incorrectness of France time-zone-wise on my many travels to France, so I am not complaining from a practical point of view, but it would not be my first choice if I would choose something for France. Map: http://media4.obspm.fr/public/amc/images/mesure-temps/images/849.gif everything possible, because as already mentied in this thread, most people may still not have understood the 'fine differences', I doubt it at least for most politicians ... ;-) (perhaps some countries do really use today UTC and did not change the expression 'GMT' in their law for that reason incl. Denmark?) Actually, the politicians does not deal with fine-grain details like these. They have a staff of people gifted in all kinds of areas which aids with the details, and few of them has a clue either, but hopefully they know who to send a draft to in order to get quality feedback on it. Interestingly enough, the Danish government agencies obviously is aware of the distinction between the GMT which their law identifies and the UTC that Poul-Henning is feeding the ISPs with. Obviously this does not help them to get the boll rolling in the parliament. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
In Australia, each state or territory defines its own time. I've scanned the Australian legal database and found bills for all states and territories defining time relative to UTC. So you can put the whole of Australia definitely in the UTC pile. Jim 2009/3/18 Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org Arnold, Arnold Tibus skrev: Magnus and all, interestlingly the discussion about GMT seem to be a never ending story, all over the world. As I know GMT was already renamed in the year 1925 ( or 1928 acc. other source ) to UT and universal time coordinated (U T C) (that) is standard since January 1, 1972. acc. About the Time : http://www.fai.org/astronautics/time.asp , look into the short overview to this history. Does anyone know the exact difference between GMT and UTC? - this question seem to be already very old, Magnus. Um. That's not the question I am asking. Richard B. Langley wrote a summary trying to give the right answer with A Few Facts Concerning GMT, UT, and the RGO . His article can be found here: http://www.apparent-wind.com/gmt-explained.html It summarizes: The Greenwich mean time, GMT, has today only an historical interest. It has been abandoned since the thirties for successively the T U 1, the T U 2 and finally, in 1972, for the much more regular universal time coordinated, U T C, that must be used for all present use. ! That is what I thought as well quite a while. But I had to change ever so often all kind of scientific and technical units, and I see the need to adopt it, I am sure we have to be open for more steps into the future. Learning will never end...! You brings me no new knowledge, only a few more links, which I suspect repeats what my sources already says to me. I already know what GMT is in the several senses it is. For me it is clearly not UTC, except for the GMT transmissions done by BBC. I object to the use of GMT when it should say UTC, they should not be used interchangeably when talking about international time. The question I am asking is really about which is the time-scale accepted for national time in various countries. So far: UTC based: France, Sweden GMT based (UT1?): Great Brittian, Denmark I suspect several countries (such as US, Germany etc. etc) to be UTC based, but I do not know for sure. As you see, this is a quite different question then asking about what is GMT or what timezone is country X. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Arnold, Arnold Tibus skrev: Magnus and all, interestlingly the discussion about GMT seem to be a never ending story, all over the world. As I know GMT was already renamed in the year 1925 ( or 1928 acc. other source ) to UT and universal time coordinated (U T C) (that) is standard since January 1, 1972. acc. About the Time : http://www.fai.org/astronautics/time.asp , look into the short overview to this history. Does anyone know the exact difference between GMT and UTC? - this question seem to be already very old, Magnus. Um. That's not the question I am asking. Richard B. Langley wrote a summary trying to give the right answer with A Few Facts Concerning GMT, UT, and the RGO . His article can be found here: http://www.apparent-wind.com/gmt-explained.html It summarizes: The Greenwich mean time, GMT, has today only an historical interest. It has been abandoned since the thirties for successively the T U 1, the T U 2 and finally, in 1972, for the much more regular universal time coordinated, U T C, that must be used for all present use. ! That is what I thought as well quite a while. But I had to change ever so often all kind of scientific and technical units, and I see the need to adopt it, I am sure we have to be open for more steps into the future. Learning will never end...! You brings me no new knowledge, only a few more links, which I suspect repeats what my sources already says to me. I already know what GMT is in the several senses it is. For me it is clearly not UTC, except for the GMT transmissions done by BBC. I object to the use of GMT when it should say UTC, they should not be used interchangeably when talking about international time. The question I am asking is really about which is the time-scale accepted for national time in various countries. So far: UTC based: France, Sweden GMT based (UT1?): Great Brittian, Denmark I suspect several countries (such as US, Germany etc. etc) to be UTC based, but I do not know for sure. As you see, this is a quite different question then asking about what is GMT or what timezone is country X. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
- Original Message - From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks Arnold, Arnold Tibus skrev: Magnus and all, interestlingly the discussion about GMT seem to be a never ending story, all over the world. As I know GMT was already renamed in the year 1925 ( or 1928 acc. other source ) to UT and universal time coordinated (U T C) (that) is standard since January 1, 1972. acc. About the Time : http://www.fai.org/astronautics/time.asp , look into the short overview to this history. Does anyone know the exact difference between GMT and UTC? - this question seem to be already very old, Magnus. Um. That's not the question I am asking. Richard B. Langley wrote a summary trying to give the right answer with A Few Facts Concerning GMT, UT, and the RGO . His article can be found here: http://www.apparent-wind.com/gmt-explained.html It summarizes: The Greenwich mean time, GMT, has today only an historical interest. It has been abandoned since the thirties for successively the T U 1, the T U 2 and finally, in 1972, for the much more regular universal time coordinated, U T C, that must be used for all present use. ! That is what I thought as well quite a while. But I had to change ever so often all kind of scientific and technical units, and I see the need to adopt it, I am sure we have to be open for more steps into the future. Learning will never end...! You brings me no new knowledge, only a few more links, which I suspect repeats what my sources already says to me. I already know what GMT is in the several senses it is. For me it is clearly not UTC, except for the GMT transmissions done by BBC. I object to the use of GMT when it should say UTC, they should not be used interchangeably when talking about international time. The question I am asking is really about which is the time-scale accepted for national time in various countries. So far: UTC based: France, Sweden GMT based (UT1?): Great Brittian, Denmark I suspect several countries (such as US, Germany etc. etc) to be UTC based, but I do not know for sure. As you see, this is a quite different question then asking about what is GMT or what timezone is country X. Cheers, Magnus This will answers all the questions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMT . ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
In message 000501c9a7b1$ef689bb0$a101a...@officemail, phil writes: GMT based (UT1?): Great Brittian, Denmark No, legally Denmark is still on mean solar time. https://www.retsinformation.dk/Forms/R0710.aspx?id=83966 -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Sorry Magnus, my comment were not related exactly to your question, I know. Mainly I did want to help to clarify a bit wether France does or not base their official time to UTC. [L'HEURE LEGALE ou l'heure en usage en France se détermine à partir du Temps universel coordonné (UTC). par le décret du 9 août 1978 qui stipule que le temps légal est obtenu en ajoutant ou en retranchant un nombre entier d'heures au temps universel coordonné etc. ] To remove another questionmark partly: I suspect several countries (such as US, Germany etc. etc) to be UTC based, but I do not know for sure. The german time is fixed by law to MEZ=CET, the Central European Time, which again is fixed by the same law to the Universal Time Coordinated (UTC) as MEZ = UTC+1h. For USA and other countries I don't know, but they have lot of persons who should be informed about... According to the pic showing the time zones (annex: Les fuseaux horaires et les décalages par pays au 1 juin 2000 Crédit: H.M.N.A.O.) most countries are affixed to UTC. That' it, friendly greetings Arnold On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 00:36:03 +0100, Magnus Danielson wrote: Arnold, Arnold Tibus skrev: Magnus and all, interestlingly the discussion about GMT seem to be a never ending story, all over the world. As I know GMT was already renamed in the year 1925 ( or 1928 acc. other source ) to UT and universal time coordinated (U T C) (that) is standard since January 1, 1972. acc. About the Time : http://www.fai.org/astronautics/time.asp , look into the short overview to this history. Does anyone know the exact difference between GMT and UTC? - this question seem to be already very old, Magnus. Um. That's not the question I am asking. Richard B. Langley wrote a summary trying to give the right answer with A Few Facts Concerning GMT, UT, and the RGO . His article can be found here: http://www.apparent-wind.com/gmt-explained.html It summarizes: The Greenwich mean time, GMT, has today only an historical interest. It has been abandoned since the thirties for successively the T U 1, the T U 2 and finally, in 1972, for the much more regular universal time coordinated, U T C, that must be used for all present use. ! That is what I thought as well quite a while. But I had to change ever so often all kind of scientific and technical units, and I see the need to adopt it, I am sure we have to be open for more steps into the future. Learning will never end...! You brings me no new knowledge, only a few more links, which I suspect repeats what my sources already says to me. I already know what GMT is in the several senses it is. For me it is clearly not UTC, except for the GMT transmissions done by BBC. I object to the use of GMT when it should say UTC, they should not be used interchangeably when talking about international time. The question I am asking is really about which is the time-scale accepted for national time in various countries. So far: UTC based: France, Sweden GMT based (UT1?): Great Brittian, Denmark I suspect several countries (such as US, Germany etc. etc) to be UTC based, but I do not know for sure. As you see, this is a quite different question then asking about what is GMT or what timezone is country X. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Sorry again, not of real importance, but I forgot to annex the mentioned map, On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:53:48 +0100, Arnold Tibus wrote: Sorry Magnus, my comment were not related exactly to your question, I know. Mainly I did want to help to clarify a bit wether France does or not base their official time to UTC. [L'HEURE LEGALE ou l'heure en usage en France se détermine à partir du Temps universel coordonné (UTC). par le décret du 9 août 1978 qui stipule que le temps légal est obtenu en ajoutant ou en retranchant un nombre entier d'heures au temps universel coordonné etc. ] .. According to the pic showing the time zones (annex: Les fuseaux horaires et les décalages par pays au 1 juin 2000 Crédit: H.M.N.A.O.) most countries are affixed to UTC. here is th link: http://media4.obspm.fr/public/amc/images/mesure-temps/images/849. gif Arnold ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
And when people are asking about UTC vs GMT, it should be noted the real question is Is legal time defined to be UTC, or is it defined to be mean solar time? GMT is mean solar time, except for all the silly confusion caused by folks who think it is the same as UTC. See recent threads on LEAPSECONDS for perfectly reasonable people that still get this distinction wrong... Warner In message: e1ljior-0007z8...@meow.febo.com Arnold Tibus arnold.ti...@gmx.de writes: : Magnus and all, : : interestlingly the discussion about GMT seem to be a never ending : story, all over the world. As I know GMT was already renamed in : the year 1925 ( or 1928 acc. other source ) to UT and : universal time coordinated (U T C) (that) is standard since : January 1, 1972. acc. About the Time : : : http://www.fai.org/astronautics/time.asp , : look into the short overview to this history. : : Does anyone know the exact difference between GMT and UTC? : - this question seem to be already very old, Magnus. : : Richard B. Langley wrote a summary trying to give the right : answer with A Few Facts Concerning GMT, UT, and the RGO . : : His article can be found here: : http://www.apparent-wind.com/gmt-explained.html : : It summarizes: : The Greenwich mean time, GMT, has today only an historical : interest. It has been abandoned since the thirties for successively : the T U 1, the T U 2 and finally, in 1972, for the much more regular : universal time coordinated, U T C, that must be used : for all present use. ! : : That is what I thought as well quite a while. : But I had to change ever so often all kind of scientific and : technical units, and I see the need to adopt it, I am sure we have : to be open for more steps into the future. Learning will never end...! : : Arnold : : : : : : On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:12:18 -, Jean-Louis Oneto wrote: : : Hello, : The French Legal Time Reference is defined since a 1978 decree by the : UTC(OP) realisation of UTC, as stated here: : http://syrte.obspm.fr/index.php?prefix=tempslang=en : : Furthermore, the International Earth Rotation Service at Paris Observatory : is responsible for the leapseconds insertion in UTC... : Have a nice day, : Jean-Louis Oneto : Grasse - France : : - Original Message - : From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org : To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement : time-nuts@febo.com : Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:27 PM : Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks : : : Arnold, : : I therefore cannot see any problem is with France, : but we have the need to define more precise and stable : reference time from where we can then measure and add : the Earth and Solar instabilities for our daily used standard : watches, in order to be enabled still to continue living and : travelling sun synchronously : : I hope not having been informed wrong so far, : kind regards and always precise time : : Please recall that just because the TAI and UTC clocks is being : maintained by BIPM just outside of Paris does not mean the same as being : legally accepted basis of time within France. : : Citing relevant law stating that the time of France shall be UTC + 1h : for normal time and UTC + 2h for summer time is providing the piece of : the puzzle that I was asking for. : : I have read Swedish and Danish law in this respect, as well as most : translations of the EC directive on summertime. : : It should be noted that I do not assume UTC = GMT. : : Cheers, : Magnus : : : : : : : ___ : time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com : To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts : and follow the instructions there. : : ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
In message: 49c033e3.2010...@rubidium.dyndns.org Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes: : So far: : : UTC based: France, Sweden : GMT based (UT1?): Great Brittian, Denmark US: UTC It was Mean Solar Time for a long time, and then it was changed to Mean Solar Time as interpreted by the secretary of commerce which gave enough wiggle room to move to UTC. The recent DST changes also contained a rider that changed this to UTC, as implemented by USNO. Warner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
In message: 000501c9a7b1$ef689bb0$a101a...@officemail phil fort...@bellsouth.net writes: : This will answers all the questions. : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMT Except that it doesn't answer much of anything for Magnus' questions. There's only 4 countries listed. Warner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
M. Warner Losh skrev: In message: 000501c9a7b1$ef689bb0$a101a...@officemail phil fort...@bellsouth.net writes: : This will answers all the questions. : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMT Except that it doesn't answer much of anything for Magnus' questions. There's only 4 countries listed. It also incorrectly identifies Denmark as UTC+1h when I know (as Poul-Henning pointed out many times before, and I read the law he pointed me to) it is GMT+1h. I have considered traveling to Gudhjem which is the Danish village which is closest to the 15-degree line. When I am at my summerhouse, I am far closer to Gudhjem then Poul-Henning is when he is at home. Last time I checked, Gudhjem is the home of 777 soles. It should be noted that there is many ways to write GMT, you can write it as GMT, Greenwhich Mean Time, Mean solar time at the Greenwich meridian (usually with ix15 degrees offsets) or just Mean solar time at ix15 meridian. It is a bit humours that the Danish translation of the EC Directive on summer-time shifts defines the shifts between summer and winter time as occuring at certain UTC times where as only GMT based times is legally acknowledged in Denmark. Lovely. :) I guess I am a nut-case to find humour in such things. I am still wondering who would set up NTP servers that provides UT1 time in order to realize GMT over NTP. It would not be all that difficult as UTC-UT1R is published regularly with advance estimates which could be smoothed out and interpolated properly. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Arnold, Arnold Tibus skrev: Sorry Magnus, my comment were not related exactly to your question, I know. OK. No problem. Mainly I did want to help to clarify a bit wether France does or not base their official time to UTC. [L'HEURE LEGALE ou l'heure en usage en France se détermine à partir du Temps universel coordonné (UTC). par le décret du 9 août 1978 qui stipule que le temps légal est obtenu en ajoutant ou en retranchant un nombre entier d'heures au temps universel coordonné etc. ] That is clear enought for me. To remove another questionmark partly: I suspect several countries (such as US, Germany etc. etc) to be UTC based, but I do not know for sure. The german time is fixed by law to MEZ=CET, the Central European Time, which again is fixed by the same law to the Universal Time Coordinated (UTC) as MEZ = UTC+1h. Many thanks! If you have web-pointers to the respective texts let me know. For USA and other countries I don't know, but they have lot of persons who should be informed about... According to the pic showing the time zones (annex: Les fuseaux horaires et les décalages par pays au 1 juin 2000 Crédit: H.M.N.A.O.) most countries are affixed to UTC. Well, it may not be exactly right... Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
M. Warner Losh skrev: In message: 49c17d52.6050...@rubidium.dyndns.org Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes: : I am still wondering who would set up NTP servers that provides UT1 time : in order to realize GMT over NTP. It would not be all that difficult as : UTC-UT1R is published regularly with advance estimates which could be : smoothed out and interpolated properly. I've never heard of such a beast... At least there wouldn't be any leap seconds in that kind of setup :) Indeed. It could also be the only way to use NTP for GMT when needed for legal activities without hacking away on the full protocol, only the statum 1 server(s) would need to be hacked. The side-effect is that it would be POSIX compliant if UT1 was accepted instead of UTC in the time-mapping and a generous interpretation would allow for it. Poof and leap seconds would cease to be a problem and it would follow the law of some countries. UTC does not need to be refined. :) It is however evil to the bone as UTC and UT1 servers can't be mixed (and should not be that) in the same set of sources because they would be false-tickers to each other. Also, it would break the NTP definition, but not necessarilly the protocol and its implementations, except for details in the servers. It would not take too much of hacking to achieve such a beast. There's even a hacker-value in it I suspect. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Rich and Marcia Putz skrev: Hi all; Gov't got to save that money for executive bonuses! Also, would anyone like to speculate when France finally accepted UTC? Uhm? I thought France was UTC country... Anyone got a comprehensive list of what time scale is legally accepted in various countries? I suddenly felt that I wanted to read one but don't know where to find one. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Hi Magnus, Try this site out for size: http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/timezone.htm 73, Steve 2009/3/17 Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org: Rich and Marcia Putz skrev: Hi all; Gov't got to save that money for executive bonuses! Also, would anyone like to speculate when France finally accepted UTC? Uhm? I thought France was UTC country... Anyone got a comprehensive list of what time scale is legally accepted in various countries? I suddenly felt that I wanted to read one but don't know where to find one. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
And they are on CET = GMT+1 2009/3/17 Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org: Rich and Marcia Putz skrev: Hi all; Gov't got to save that money for executive bonuses! Also, would anyone like to speculate when France finally accepted UTC? Uhm? I thought France was UTC country... Anyone got a comprehensive list of what time scale is legally accepted in various countries? I suddenly felt that I wanted to read one but don't know where to find one. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Not sure where that comment (and the question) comes from, since France is one of the originator of the standard... As far back as I can recall (admittedly maybe not THAT far, and the older I get, the less far that is...), UTC has been the time standard in France. Didier KO4BB time-nuts-boun...@febo.com wrote: Never ?? 73, Dick, W1KSZ -Original Message- From: Rich and Marcia Putz rp...@bnin.net Sent: Mar 16, 2009 6:54 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks Hi all; Gov't got to save that money for executive bonuses! Also, would anyone like to speculate when France finally accepted UTC? Rich ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
UTC? France? Of course they do accept it! see : Université de Technologie de Compiègne (UTC) (www.utc.fr/) [ ;-) ] More seriously: We do use in Europe, including France, CET ¡ Central European Time, Time zone offset: UTC + 1 hour. Interesting facts: The GPS navigation system has GPS Time as its basis. Galileo will have TAI as its basis. GLONASS has UTC as its basis, Air traffic controllers are using UTC. Looking into http://www.cv.nrao.edu/~rfisher/Ephemerides/times.html (Astronomical Times) we do find: [...]There are two widely used time standards. One is the rotation of the earth, and the other is the frequency of atomic oscillations (mainly the cesium-133 atom). [...] [...] By definition, UTC and TAI have the same rate, but UTC stays close to Mean Solar Time by adding integer numbers of seconds, called leap seconds, from time to time. This keeps solar noon at the same UTC (averaged over the year), even though the rotation of the earth is slowing down. [...] TAI is controlled from France since 1955 I think. (Temps Atomique International) Location: Bureau International des Poids et Mesures (BIPM), Sevres, France. There is a discussion ongoing since years to find a new definition for UTC for several reasons: UTC Timescale Colloquium 28-29 May 2003 (http://www.gfy.ku.dk/~iag/ecag05doc/torino_coll.pdf) [...] As a matter of policy, the U.S. Naval Observatory timescale, UTC(USNO), and its real-time implementation, Master Clock #2 (MC #2), are kept within a close but unspecified tolerance of the international atomic timescale published by the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures (International Bureau of Weights and Measures [BIPM]) in Sevres, France. The world's timing centers, including USNO, submit their clock measurements to BIPM, which then uses them to compute a free-running (unsteered) mean timescale (Echelle Atomique Libre [EAL]). BIPM then applies frequency corrections (steers) to EAL, based on measurements from primary frequency standards and intended to keep the International System's basic unit of time, the second, constant. [...] and [...] The difference between UTC (computed by BIPM) and any other timing center's UTC only becomes known after computation and dissemination of UTC, which occurs about two weeks after the fact. This difference is presently limited mainly by the long-term frequency instability of UTC. UTC(USNO) has been kept within 26 nanoseconds of UTC during the past year through frequency steering of our Master Clocks to our extrapolation of UTC. Since synchronization is never perfect, we provide the latest data below on the differences between UTC and the UTC of other timing centers, including USNO, [...] more: (http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/bipm.html) I therefore cannot see any problem is with France, but we have the need to define more precise and stable reference time from where we can then measure and add the Earth and Solar instabilities for our daily used standard watches, in order to be enabled still to continue living and travelling sun synchronously I hope not having been informed wrong so far, kind regards and always precise time Arnold On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:32:56 -0500, Bill Hawkins wrote: According to Wikipedia (a handy way to avoid speculation), international agreement was reached in 1960. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time UTC is a compromise between the French and British initials. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Rich and Marcia Putz Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 5:55 PM Hi all; Gov't got to save that money for executive bonuses! Also, would anyone like to speculate when France finally accepted UTC? Rich ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
On 3/17/09 5:58 AM, Arnold Tibus arnold.ti...@gmx.de wrote: Interesting facts: The GPS navigation system has GPS Time as its basis. Galileo will have TAI as its basis. GLONASS has UTC as its basis, Air traffic controllers are using UTC. The latter is probably because air traffic control is basically done at a resolution of 1 minute (e.g. Hold at SADLE intersection, expect release at 32[minutes after the hour]) so the several second offset between UTC and GPS is immaterial. You're looking at a mechanical watch in any case. Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
In message c5e4ee4d.6481%james.p@jpl.nasa.gov, Lux, James P writes: On 3/17/09 5:58 AM, Arnold Tibus arnold.ti...@gmx.de wrote: Interesting facts: The GPS navigation system has GPS Time as its basis. Galileo will have TAI as its basis. GLONASS has UTC as its basis, Air traffic controllers are using UTC. The latter is probably because air traffic control is basically done at a resolution of 1 minute [...] The underlying requirements is 10 seconds, and many ATC installations have special UTC clocks with five digits because that makes it pretty hard to get it wrong. One does pause on seeing a clock with 12:34:5 where the last digit clearly isn't dead, because there is no space for it :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Hi Poul: I've more than once misread a clock display of the type 12:34:05. I've noticed that military clocks show 1234:05 and there's no mistaking the time. Seems like a more foolproof display format. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message c5e4ee4d.6481%james.p@jpl.nasa.gov, Lux, James P writes: On 3/17/09 5:58 AM, Arnold Tibus arnold.ti...@gmx.de wrote: Interesting facts: The GPS navigation system has GPS Time as its basis. Galileo will have TAI as its basis. GLONASS has UTC as its basis, Air traffic controllers are using UTC. The latter is probably because air traffic control is basically done at a resolution of 1 minute [...] The underlying requirements is 10 seconds, and many ATC installations have special UTC clocks with five digits because that makes it pretty hard to get it wrong. One does pause on seeing a clock with 12:34:5 where the last digit clearly isn't dead, because there is no space for it :-) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Arnold, I therefore cannot see any problem is with France, but we have the need to define more precise and stable reference time from where we can then measure and add the Earth and Solar instabilities for our daily used standard watches, in order to be enabled still to continue living and travelling sun synchronously I hope not having been informed wrong so far, kind regards and always precise time Please recall that just because the TAI and UTC clocks is being maintained by BIPM just outside of Paris does not mean the same as being legally accepted basis of time within France. Citing relevant law stating that the time of France shall be UTC + 1h for normal time and UTC + 2h for summer time is providing the piece of the puzzle that I was asking for. I have read Swedish and Danish law in this respect, as well as most translations of the EC directive on summertime. It should be noted that I do not assume UTC = GMT. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Steve Rooke skrev: Hi Magnus, Try this site out for size: http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/timezone.htm No. It just fails to make the distinction that I am asking for... Stockholm, Sweden is UTC+1h as normal time and UTC+2h as summer time, not GMT+1h and GMT+2h as indicated in the above site. Let me rephrase it properly so that it is understood: Does anyone has a collected list of the legally accepted time scale and offset, such that distinctions such as that between UTC and GMT is maintained? Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
UTC is the accepted international standard, but GMT appears to be steadfastly held onto by the UK (especially Government departments). I believe that GMT is actually by definition UTC_NPL, i.e. NPL contributes to UTC, but will have a small local offset as will all contributors. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here. Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson Sent: 17 March 2009 19:20 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks Steve Rooke skrev: Hi Magnus, Try this site out for size: http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/timezone.htm No. It just fails to make the distinction that I am asking for... Stockholm, Sweden is UTC+1h as normal time and UTC+2h as summer time, not GMT+1h and GMT+2h as indicated in the above site. Let me rephrase it properly so that it is understood: Does anyone has a collected list of the legally accepted time scale and offset, such that distinctions such as that between UTC and GMT is maintained? Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Magnus, at least as of 2000, GMT was still the legal time in the UK, though it doesn't have a technically accurate definition any more. A bill in 1997 attempted to change UK time to UTC, but it died in Parliament. There's some discussion of this at pages 93-94 of a book that was recommended here a few months ago, Splitting the Second by Tony Jones. It's well worth a read as a general overview of timekeeping. But outside of the UK, I don't think GMT is viewed as a defined timescale today; UTC has supplanted it everywhere (that I know of). John Magnus Danielson said the following on 03/17/2009 03:20 PM: Steve Rooke skrev: Hi Magnus, Try this site out for size: http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/timezone.htm No. It just fails to make the distinction that I am asking for... Stockholm, Sweden is UTC+1h as normal time and UTC+2h as summer time, not GMT+1h and GMT+2h as indicated in the above site. Let me rephrase it properly so that it is understood: Does anyone has a collected list of the legally accepted time scale and offset, such that distinctions such as that between UTC and GMT is maintained? Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Hello, The French Legal Time Reference is defined since a 1978 decree by the UTC(OP) realisation of UTC, as stated here: http://syrte.obspm.fr/index.php?prefix=tempslang=en Furthermore, the International Earth Rotation Service at Paris Observatory is responsible for the leapseconds insertion in UTC... Have a nice day, Jean-Louis Oneto Grasse - France - Original Message - From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks Arnold, I therefore cannot see any problem is with France, but we have the need to define more precise and stable reference time from where we can then measure and add the Earth and Solar instabilities for our daily used standard watches, in order to be enabled still to continue living and travelling sun synchronously I hope not having been informed wrong so far, kind regards and always precise time Please recall that just because the TAI and UTC clocks is being maintained by BIPM just outside of Paris does not mean the same as being legally accepted basis of time within France. Citing relevant law stating that the time of France shall be UTC + 1h for normal time and UTC + 2h for summer time is providing the piece of the puzzle that I was asking for. I have read Swedish and Danish law in this respect, as well as most translations of the EC directive on summertime. It should be noted that I do not assume UTC = GMT. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
-Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Smith Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 12:05 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks Not exactly the case. Radio components of the ADS-B system require 100 ns accuracy. Multilateration systems also require very precise timing between components. The navigation and communications systems are most definitely not looking at the hands of a mechanical watch. Ralph On Tue, March 17, 2009 9:06 am, Lux, James P wrote: The latter is probably because air traffic control is basically done at a resolution of 1 minute (e.g. Hold at SADLE intersection, expect release at 32[minutes after the hour]) so the several second offset between UTC and GPS is immaterial. You're looking at a mechanical watch in any case. Jim Oh, yes, if you consider ATC to include navigation functions. But the flight control kinds of things are done on a substantially coarser time scale. I suppose as automated flight control (collision avoidance, for instance) becomes more common, then tighter timing is required. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Looks like the original post in this thread was a troll, as in fishing for bites. Anybody know this guy? Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Rich and Marcia Putz Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 5:55 PM Hi all; Gov't got to save that money for executive bonuses! Also, would anyone like to speculate when France finally accepted UTC? Rich ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Magnus and all, interestlingly the discussion about GMT seem to be a never ending story, all over the world. As I know GMT was already renamed in the year 1925 ( or 1928 acc. other source ) to UT and universal time coordinated (U T C) (that) is standard since January 1, 1972. acc. About the Time : http://www.fai.org/astronautics/time.asp , look into the short overview to this history. Does anyone know the exact difference between GMT and UTC? - this question seem to be already very old, Magnus. Richard B. Langley wrote a summary trying to give the right answer with A Few Facts Concerning GMT, UT, and the RGO . His article can be found here: http://www.apparent-wind.com/gmt-explained.html It summarizes: The Greenwich mean time, GMT, has today only an historical interest. It has been abandoned since the thirties for successively the T U 1, the T U 2 and finally, in 1972, for the much more regular universal time coordinated, U T C, that must be used for all present use. ! That is what I thought as well quite a while. But I had to change ever so often all kind of scientific and technical units, and I see the need to adopt it, I am sure we have to be open for more steps into the future. Learning will never end...! Arnold On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:12:18 -, Jean-Louis Oneto wrote: Hello, The French Legal Time Reference is defined since a 1978 decree by the UTC(OP) realisation of UTC, as stated here: http://syrte.obspm.fr/index.php?prefix=tempslang=en Furthermore, the International Earth Rotation Service at Paris Observatory is responsible for the leapseconds insertion in UTC... Have a nice day, Jean-Louis Oneto Grasse - France - Original Message - From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks Arnold, I therefore cannot see any problem is with France, but we have the need to define more precise and stable reference time from where we can then measure and add the Earth and Solar instabilities for our daily used standard watches, in order to be enabled still to continue living and travelling sun synchronously I hope not having been informed wrong so far, kind regards and always precise time Please recall that just because the TAI and UTC clocks is being maintained by BIPM just outside of Paris does not mean the same as being legally accepted basis of time within France. Citing relevant law stating that the time of France shall be UTC + 1h for normal time and UTC + 2h for summer time is providing the piece of the puzzle that I was asking for. I have read Swedish and Danish law in this respect, as well as most translations of the EC directive on summertime. It should be noted that I do not assume UTC = GMT. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
I can vouch for Rich -- he's been on the list for a long time. John Bill Hawkins said the following on 03/17/2009 06:33 PM: Looks like the original post in this thread was a troll, as in fishing for bites. Anybody know this guy? Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Rich and Marcia Putz Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 5:55 PM Hi all; Gov't got to save that money for executive bonuses! Also, would anyone like to speculate when France finally accepted UTC? Rich ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Hi Rob you might be able to get the official line from Peter Whibberly at Teddington. Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Rob Kimberley r...@timing-consultants.com To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks UTC is the accepted international standard, but GMT appears to be steadfastly held onto by the UK (especially Government departments). I believe that GMT is actually by definition UTC_NPL, i.e. NPL contributes to UTC, but will have a small local offset as will all contributors. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here. Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson Sent: 17 March 2009 19:20 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks Steve Rooke skrev: Hi Magnus, Try this site out for size: http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/timezone.htm No. It just fails to make the distinction that I am asking for... Stockholm, Sweden is UTC+1h as normal time and UTC+2h as summer time, not GMT+1h and GMT+2h as indicated in the above site. Let me rephrase it properly so that it is understood: Does anyone has a collected list of the legally accepted time scale and offset, such that distinctions such as that between UTC and GMT is maintained? Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
Never ?? 73, Dick, W1KSZ -Original Message- From: Rich and Marcia Putz rp...@bnin.net Sent: Mar 16, 2009 6:54 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks Hi all; Gov't got to save that money for executive bonuses! Also, would anyone like to speculate when France finally accepted UTC? Rich ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
According to Wikipedia (a handy way to avoid speculation), international agreement was reached in 1960. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time UTC is a compromise between the French and British initials. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Rich and Marcia Putz Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 5:55 PM Hi all; Gov't got to save that money for executive bonuses! Also, would anyone like to speculate when France finally accepted UTC? Rich ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks
-Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hawkins Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 4:33 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C French Clocks According to Wikipedia (a handy way to avoid speculation), international agreement was reached in 1960. Hah.. Wikipedia != no dispute... But for this it's probably pretty safe. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time UTC is a compromise between the French and British initials. Oohh. That's an area with a lot of discussion, and I think it came up on the list a few months back, with folks slinging first references back and forth. Or maybe that was a discussion here at JPL. Wikipedia, unusually, actually cites a NIST page. (of course, the link in the bibliography for HP AN 1289 by Allan, et al., is just to the Wikipedia entry for Application Note.. Spare me!) In any case, the solomonic solution of TLA (three letter abbreviation) which is not a TLA (Three Letter Acronym) is not too bad. Look what happened with the meter and prime meridian a few centuries ago. I guess we could have the Prime Meridian through Giza and use the Royal Cubit.. Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
