Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
It makes senses even for this list! Numbers like 12 and 60 are chosen for their high number of dividers. That is a mathematical reason. Think of in ancient time all was divided in equal integers units. Even the Maya knew it! This is connected to numbers of low n-divide with the ultimate of prime numbers. If you're there you find reasons for encryption and low-spur PLLs. Then you're on on-topic again ;-) - Henry -- ehydra.dyndns.info ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
On 4/5/11 7:38 PM, Greg Broburg wrote: The number 6 and derivations thereof were presented to the world of science from the numerologists. Time was arranged as parts of a day, 24 hours 60 minutes per hour 60 seconds per minute. Very tenuous at best. I propose that we consider 100 seconds in a minute, 100 minutes in an hour, and 10 hours in a day. People could handle that with an IPhone ap, right? Then there's the Babylonians, who used a number system where 60 was important. 60 has lots of factors, which makes dividing things up into equal sized chunks easy. (as my daughter said when much younger, and doing fractions in math, curse those Babylonians). The fact that a year is about 360 days long (6*60) also feeds into it. You really needed the invention and adoption of place value for a decimalized system to work well, and that didn't come along til around 700-800 C.E., I think. By then, the fractional measurement approach and customary units were well entrenched. Sure, although King John standardized the yard and inch and pound and such in the 1200s, I'm sure that the units themselves were already in use for a long time. Currency is also done in a fractional system (pieces o'eight, 12pence/shilling with ha'pennies to boot) The French *did* have a decimalized calendar (and time, too, I think). ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
On 04/06/2011 03:19 PM, Jim Lux wrote: On 4/5/11 7:38 PM, Greg Broburg wrote: The number 6 and derivations thereof were presented to the world of science from the numerologists. Time was arranged as parts of a day, 24 hours 60 minutes per hour 60 seconds per minute. Very tenuous at best. I propose that we consider 100 seconds in a minute, 100 minutes in an hour, and 10 hours in a day. People could handle that with an IPhone ap, right? Then there's the Babylonians, who used a number system where 60 was important. 60 has lots of factors, which makes dividing things up into equal sized chunks easy. (as my daughter said when much younger, and doing fractions in math, curse those Babylonians). The fact that a year is about 360 days long (6*60) also feeds into it. You really needed the invention and adoption of place value for a decimalized system to work well, and that didn't come along til around 700-800 C.E., I think. By then, the fractional measurement approach and customary units were well entrenched. Sure, although King John standardized the yard and inch and pound and such in the 1200s, I'm sure that the units themselves were already in use for a long time. Currency is also done in a fractional system (pieces o'eight, 12pence/shilling with ha'pennies to boot) The French *did* have a decimalized calendar (and time, too, I think). You can't do much about the the number of days per year, and a 400 day calender would be useless since it would be hard to pin things which depends on seasons to a fixed date, month or so... Another annoying detail is that the SI second takes about 86400 seconds for a twist around the axis such that the closest star is at the same place in the sky again. If you want to get the closes decimal number it would be 10 new seconds and such a second would require 86400 * 9192631770 / 10 = 864 * 919263177 / 100 = 7942433849.28 cycles per new second of a caesium reference. Not a particular neat number, but in reality it would not be too strange when considering how a caesium clock actually works. Going full decimal is not practical. I does not support it. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
On 4/5/11 8:25 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue Hz . // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. actually 1/s (= Hz) = 2*pi rad/sec BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
Hi Jim: But what you show violates the SI rules, even though it's the correct calculation. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com Jim Lux wrote: On 4/5/11 8:25 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue Hz . // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. actually 1/s (= Hz) = 2*pi rad/sec BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
-Brian, WA1ZMS On Apr 5, 2011, at 11:51 AM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 4/5/11 8:25 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue Hz . // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. actually 1/s (= Hz) = 2*pi rad/sec BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
Is that the one that's plotted on Lin-Log paper? -Brian, WA1ZMS On Apr 5, 2011, at 11:51 AM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 4/5/11 8:25 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue Hz . // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. actually 1/s (= Hz) = 2*pi rad/sec BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
Le 05/04/2011 17:51, Jim Lux a écrit : On 4/5/11 8:25 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue Hz . // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. Isn't his premiss wrong? I see no required relation between s^-1 or 1/s and angular measure. If I am dropping rocks into a pool at 1 second intervals I get splashes at 1Hz . Not many radians in that. Maybe that is why cps was dropped. actually 1/s (= Hz) = 2*pi rad/sec BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
I don't understand what is wrong with 'Hz'. As Time in seconds is a SI unit, Frequency is the reciprocal value of time, f=1/T, Frequency is not a SI base unit but a SI coherent derived unit (in the list with special names and symbols as force, pressure, charge, power, resistance etc.). [11th CGPM, Resolution 12] So Frequency is defined as the measure of the number of occurrences of a repeating event per unit time. To calculate the frequency, the number of occurrences of the event within a fixed time interval are counted, and then it's divided by the length of the time interval. NIST wording: The rotational frequency n of a rotating body is defined to be the number of revolutions it makes in a time interval divided by that time interval [4: ISO 8-3]. The SI unit of this quantity is thus the reciprocal second (s-1). But perhaps I misunderstand your position, could you give an explanation? Arnold Am 05.04.2011 17:54, schrieb Brooke Clarke: Hi Jim: But what you show violates the SI rules, even though it's the correct calculation. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com Jim Lux wrote: On 4/5/11 8:25 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue Hz . // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. actually 1/s (= Hz) = 2*pi rad/sec BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
Hi Arnold: The web site contains a lot of unit related computations, see: http://futureboy.us/fsp/frink.fsp and it's author has spent quite a lot of time in understanding units. In school when I learned this it was called dimensional analysis. Here is the section dealing with Hertz: --- hertz := s^-1// frequency Hz := hertz // // Alan's Editorializing: Here is YET ANOTHER place where the SI made a // really stupid definition. Let's follow their chain of definitions, shall // we, and see how it leads to absolutely ridiculous results. // The Hz is currently defined simply as inverse seconds. (1/s). // See: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html // // The base unit of frequency in the SI *used* to be cycles per second. // This was fine and good. However, in 1960, the BIPM made the // change to make the made the fundamental unit of frequency to // be Hz which they defined as inverse seconds (without qualification.) // // Then, in 1974, they changed the radian from its own base unit in the SI // to be a dimensionless number, which it indeed is (it's a length divided by // a length.) That change was correct and good in itself. // // However, the definition of the Hz was *not* corrected at the same // time that the radian was changed. Thus, we have the conflicting SI // definition of the radian as the dimensionless number 1 (without // qualification) and Hz as 1/s. (Without qualification.) // // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. // The entire rest of the world, up until that point, knew that 1 Hz needs to // be equal to *2 pi* radians/s or be changed to mean *cycles/second* for // these to be reconcilable. If you use Hz to mean cycles/second, say, // in sinusoidal motion, as the world has done for a century, know that the SI // made all your calculations wrong. A couple of times, in different ways. // // This gives the wonderful situation that the SI's Hz-vs-radian/s definitions // have meant completely different things in the timeperiods: // // * pre-1960 // * 1960 to 1974 // * post-1974 // // // Thus, anyone trying to mix the SI definitions for Hz and angular // frequencies (e.g. radians/s) will get utterly wrong answers that don't // match basic mathematical reality, nor match any way that Hz was ever used // for describing, say, sinusoidal motion. // // Beware the SI's broken definition // of Hz. You should treat the radian as being correct, as a fundamental // dimensionless property of the universe that falls out of pure math like // the Taylor series for sin[x], and you should treat the Hz as being a // fundamental property of incompetence by committee. // // One could consider the CGPM in 1960 to have made the original mistake, // re-defining Hz in a way that did not reflect its meaning up to that point, // or the CGPM in 1974 to have made the absolutely huge mistake that made // the whole system inconsistent and wrong, and clearly broke the definition // of Hz-vs-radian/s used everywhere in the world, turning it into a broken, // self-contradictory mess that it is now. // // Either way, if I ever develop a time machine, I'm going to go back and // knock both groups' heads together. At a frequency of about 1 Hz. Or // better yet, strap them to a wheel and tell them I'm going to spin one group // at a frequency of 1 Hz, and the other at 1 radian/s and let them try to // figure out which one of those stupid inconsistent definitions means what. // Hint: It'll depend on which time period I do it in, I guess, thanks to // their useless inconsistent definition changes. // // It's as if this bunch of geniuses took a well-understood term like day // and redefined it to mean 60 minutes. It simply breaks every historical // use, and present use, and just causes confusion and a blatant source of // error. // // In summary: Frink grudgingly follows the SI's ridiculous, broken definition // of Hz. You should not use Hz. The SI's definition of Hz should be // considered harmful and broken. Instead, if you're talking about circular // or sinusoidal motion, use terms like cycles/sec revolutions/s, // rpm, circle/min, etc. and Frink will do the right thing because it // doesn't involve the stupid SI definition that doesn't match what any // human knows about sinusoidal motion. Use of Hz will cause communication // problems, errors, and make one party or another look insane in the eyes // of the other. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com Arnold Tibus wrote: I don't understand what is wrong with 'Hz'. As Time in seconds is a SI unit, Frequency is the reciprocal value of time, f=1/T, Frequency is not a SI base unit but a SI coherent derived unit (in the list with special names and symbols as force, pressure,
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
On 4/5/11 10:10 AM, wa1...@att.net wrote: Is that the one that's plotted on Lin-Log paper? It is indeed. I have no idea where it originated. From the typography, I'm going to guess it was done in the 60s, but I got a copy of a copy from a field engineer, etc. BTW, if anyone is confused, I have a handy direct reading graph published by HP a few decades ago to assist engineers in converting from cycles per second to Hertz. I'll see if I can scan it and attach it later. I know I really should have mentioned this last Friday. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
On 04/05/2011 05:25 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi: Just reading at: http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt First about the candela and all it's problems, then what's a Time Nut issue Hz . // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. I've tried to check this against up-to-date references, and the NIST SP 811-1985 isn't a valid reference, it is also a derivate work. Today you can get the hard docs here: http://www.bipm.org/en/si/si_brochure/ I haven't had the brains to follow the rant, but I think the problem doesn't exist any more. Current docs should make it coherent. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
For me it looks like this guy hates SI system. There are many out there. How cares? The problems arise if systems get mixed up and at least one end of the communication link thinks the other does the same. So left-right screws confusing between UK and Europe, satellites with inch-meters trouble etc. - Henry -- ehydra.dyndns.info ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
In message 4d9b5a36@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: On 04/05/2011 05:25 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: I haven't had the brains to follow the rant, but I think the problem doesn't exist any more. Current docs should make it coherent. I think he is fundamentally (ha!) confused. There is no reason for him or anybody else to think that the redefinition of the radian has anything to do with the Hz at all: Hz has never been defined in terms of the radian nor vice versa. Hz is the reciprocal of time, the same exact way conductivity (Siemens) is of resistance (Ohm) and that's all there is to that. But his rant about the Candela is spot on. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
And you are being redundant, by saying SI system which is like saying International System System. Also see PIN number :-) Rick On 4/5/2011 2:22 PM, ehydra wrote: For me it looks like this guy hates SI system. There are many out there. How cares? The problems arise if systems get mixed up and at least one end of the communication link thinks the other does the same. So left-right screws confusing between UK and Europe, satellites with inch-meters trouble etc. - Henry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
Don't forget LCD Display - Liquid Crystal Display Display Alternative to LED Display - Light Emitting Diode Display Greg On 4/5/2011 4:07 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: And you are being redundant, by saying SI system which is like saying International System System. Also see PIN number :-) Rick On 4/5/2011 2:22 PM, ehydra wrote: For me it looks like this guy hates SI system. There are many out there. How cares? The problems arise if systems get mixed up and at least one end of the communication link thinks the other does the same. So left-right screws confusing between UK and Europe, satellites with inch-meters trouble etc. - Henry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
On 04/06/2011 12:04 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message4d9b5a36@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: On 04/05/2011 05:25 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: I haven't had the brains to follow the rant, but I think the problem doesn't exist any more. Current docs should make it coherent. I think he is fundamentally (ha!) confused. There is no reason for him or anybody else to think that the redefinition of the radian has anything to do with the Hz at all: Hz has never been defined in terms of the radian nor vice versa. Hz is the reciprocal of time, the same exact way conductivity (Siemens) is of resistance (Ohm) and that's all there is to that. Yeah, the Hz rambling is confusing to the degree that I could not quite set my finger on it. But his rant about the Candela is spot on. Candela is such a strange unit that it is almost cute. What was it? 1 inch candle... Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
You must work for the Department of Redundancy Department. Joe Gray W5JG On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Greg Broburg semif...@comcast.net wrote: Don't forget LCD Display - Liquid Crystal Display Display Alternative to LED Display - Light Emitting Diode Display Greg On 4/5/2011 4:07 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: And you are being redundant, by saying SI system which is like saying International System System. Also see PIN number :-) Rick On 4/5/2011 2:22 PM, ehydra wrote: For me it looks like this guy hates SI system. There are many out there. How cares? The problems arise if systems get mixed up and at least one end of the communication link thinks the other does the same. So left-right screws confusing between UK and Europe, satellites with inch-meters trouble etc. - Henry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
...probably somebody who hates SI units for some unknown reason and uses his intelligence to construct a couple of ridiculous arguments supposed to show that this system of units had holes. On Tuesday 05 April 2011, Brooke Clarke wrote: // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic Why exactly should hat arise when following the rules of SI? If I follow this guy's rule, I could also argue: 1 Hz = radians Hz = radians^2 Hz = radians^3726 Hz. Similarly, 1 s = radians s = 1 radians s. That's independent of the definition of Hz and seconds and can be constructed whenever you can replace numerical 1 with something else. Where's the point? What links radians to seconds? But hey, guys, sshhh... don't tell this guy that you could also write Hz = s^-1 because then he'd start with 1 Hz = seconds to the power of a negataive radiant which clearly shows that SI units are utterly perverse! Wolfgang, DL1SKY ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
I agree. After all, teh SI system is clearly God's units as revealed by the French... Don Wolfgang ...probably somebody who hates SI units for some unknown reason and uses his intelligence to construct a couple of ridiculous arguments supposed to show that this system of units had holes. On Tuesday 05 April 2011, Brooke Clarke wrote: // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic Why exactly should hat arise when following the rules of SI? If I follow this guy's rule, I could also argue: 1 Hz = radians Hz = radians^2 Hz = radians^3726 Hz. Similarly, 1 s = radians s = 1 radians s. That's independent of the definition of Hz and seconds and can be constructed whenever you can replace numerical 1 with something else. Where's the point? What links radians to seconds? But hey, guys, sshhh... don't tell this guy that you could also write Hz = s^-1 because then he'd start with 1 Hz = seconds to the power of a negataive radiant which clearly shows that SI units are utterly perverse! Wolfgang, DL1SKY ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
I used to tell my students upon the introduction of angular frequency that if the math of AC analysis had come along a little earlier that our radio dials would be calibrated in radians per second instead of cycles per second (Hz). Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems Hi Arnold: The web site contains a lot of unit related computations, see: http://futureboy.us/fsp/frink.fsp and it's author has spent quite a lot of time in understanding units. In school when I learned this it was called dimensional analysis. Here is the section dealing with Hertz: --- hertz := s^-1// frequency Hz := hertz // // Alan's Editorializing: Here is YET ANOTHER place where the SI made a // really stupid definition. Let's follow their chain of definitions, shall // we, and see how it leads to absolutely ridiculous results. // The Hz is currently defined simply as inverse seconds. (1/s). // See: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html // // The base unit of frequency in the SI *used* to be cycles per second. // This was fine and good. However, in 1960, the BIPM made the // change to make the made the fundamental unit of frequency to // be Hz which they defined as inverse seconds (without qualification.) // // Then, in 1974, they changed the radian from its own base unit in the SI // to be a dimensionless number, which it indeed is (it's a length divided by // a length.) That change was correct and good in itself. // // However, the definition of the Hz was *not* corrected at the same // time that the radian was changed. Thus, we have the conflicting SI // definition of the radian as the dimensionless number 1 (without // qualification) and Hz as 1/s. (Without qualification.) // // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic // ideas of sinusoidal motion, and is simply a stupid definition. // The entire rest of the world, up until that point, knew that 1 Hz needs to // be equal to *2 pi* radians/s or be changed to mean *cycles/second* for // these to be reconcilable. If you use Hz to mean cycles/second, say, // in sinusoidal motion, as the world has done for a century, know that the SI // made all your calculations wrong. A couple of times, in different ways. // // This gives the wonderful situation that the SI's Hz-vs-radian/s definitions // have meant completely different things in the timeperiods: // // * pre-1960 // * 1960 to 1974 // * post-1974 // // // Thus, anyone trying to mix the SI definitions for Hz and angular // frequencies (e.g. radians/s) will get utterly wrong answers that don't // match basic mathematical reality, nor match any way that Hz was ever used // for describing, say, sinusoidal motion. // // Beware the SI's broken definition // of Hz. You should treat the radian as being correct, as a fundamental // dimensionless property of the universe that falls out of pure math like // the Taylor series for sin[x], and you should treat the Hz as being a // fundamental property of incompetence by committee. // // One could consider the CGPM in 1960 to have made the original mistake, // re-defining Hz in a way that did not reflect its meaning up to that point, // or the CGPM in 1974 to have made the absolutely huge mistake that made // the whole system inconsistent and wrong, and clearly broke the definition // of Hz-vs-radian/s used everywhere in the world, turning it into a broken, // self-contradictory mess that it is now. // // Either way, if I ever develop a time machine, I'm going to go back and // knock both groups' heads together. At a frequency of about 1 Hz. Or // better yet, strap them to a wheel and tell them I'm going to spin one group // at a frequency of 1 Hz, and the other at 1 radian/s and let them try to // figure out which one of those stupid inconsistent definitions means what. // Hint: It'll depend on which time period I do it in, I guess, thanks to // their useless inconsistent definition changes. // // It's as if this bunch of geniuses took a well-understood term like day // and redefined it to mean 60 minutes. It simply breaks every historical // use, and present use, and just causes confusion and a blatant source of // error. // // In summary: Frink grudgingly follows the SI's ridiculous, broken
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
At 08:43 PM 4/5/2011, Wolfgang wrote... ...probably somebody who hates SI units for some unknown reason and uses his intelligence to construct a couple of ridiculous arguments supposed to show that this system of units had holes. ...or someone tired of academics creating things which are ambiguous, wrong, or which simply don't work in the real world. Lots of things work in theory, but no one lives there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
I don't think that SI is the last system we see and that is for the decimal system too. I see small problems like the definiton of mass as units of 1000xgrams and that the k is low but should be K to be consistent (M, G, etc). But to think the american system is better must be a joke. Even the japanese changes all 40 years ago. S/N is now almost at -infinitum. - Henry -- ehydra.dyndns.info Don Latham schrieb: I agree. After all, teh SI system is clearly God's units as revealed by the French... Don Wolfgang ...probably somebody who hates SI units for some unknown reason and uses his intelligence to construct a couple of ridiculous arguments supposed to show that this system of units had holes. On Tuesday 05 April 2011, Brooke Clarke wrote: // This means that, if you follow the rules of the SI, // 1 Hz = 1/s = 1 radian/s which is simply inconsistent and violates basic Why exactly should hat arise when following the rules of SI? If I follow this guy's rule, I could also argue: 1 Hz = radians Hz = radians^2 Hz = radians^3726 Hz. Similarly, 1 s = radians s = 1 radians s. That's independent of the definition of Hz and seconds and can be constructed whenever you can replace numerical 1 with something else. Where's the point? What links radians to seconds? But hey, guys, sshhh... don't tell this guy that you could also write Hz = s^-1 because then he'd start with 1 Hz = seconds to the power of a negataive radiant which clearly shows that SI units are utterly perverse! Wolfgang, DL1SKY ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
The number 6 and derivations thereof were presented to the world of science from the numerologists. Time was arranged as parts of a day, 24 hours 60 minutes per hour 60 seconds per minute. Very tenuous at best. I propose that we consider 100 seconds in a minute, 100 minutes in an hour, and 10 hours in a day. People could handle that with an IPhone ap, right? Lets put an end to this nuber 6 nonsense. I admit that it will change a few constants here and there but then isnt it time for us to throw off the old numerology nonsense?? Greg On 4/5/2011 7:01 PM, ehydra wrote: I don't think that SI is the last system we see and that is for the decimal system too. I see small problems like the definiton of mass as units of 1000xgrams and that the k is low but should be K to be consistent (M, G, etc). But to think the american system is better must be a joke. Even the japanese changes all 40 years ago. S/N is now almost at -infinitum. - Henry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
At 09:01 PM 4/5/2011, ehydra wrote... the k is low but should be K to be consistent (M, G, etc). That's historical. All of the original prefixes (from 1795) were lower case. When new ones extended the magnitudes (in 1960), capitalization was necessary to distinguish M(ega) from m(icro). They also chose to capitalize all higher order prefixes. Prefixes da, h, and k weren't capitalized to maintain backward consistency. I suppose they could have used me or ma as the prefix for mega, just as d(ek)a was originally used to distinguish it from d(eci), but then two character prefixes (or alternate, non-conflicting ones) would also be needed for P(eta)/p(ico), Z(etta)/z(epto), and Y(otta)/y(octo) when things were extended even further. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems
On Apr 5, 2011, at 17:48, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: I agree. After all, teh SI system is clearly God's units as revealed by the French... Don Oh, those Cassinis At least the English got the Prime Meridian out of the deal ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] SI Unit Problems - no more please
Guys, enough already please!! Sent from my iPad On Apr 5, 2011, at 20:30, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On Apr 5, 2011, at 17:48, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: I agree. After all, teh SI system is clearly God's units as revealed by the French... Don Oh, those Cassinis At least the English got the Prime Meridian out of the deal ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
