Re: [time-nuts] Speedy neutrino puzzle solved
Now if tvb had loaded up his van with caesium clocks and driven back and forth between the two stations several times, then corrected for altitude/gravity effects, would he not have revealed the timing problem? cheers, Neville Michie On 16/10/2011, at 8:46 AM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: http://nbcu.mo2do.net/s/18488/29?itemId=tag:dvice.com, 2011://3.83661&fullPageURL=/archives/2011/10/speedy-neutrino.php Comments please! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speedy neutrino puzzle solved
>From jim77...@gmail.com, Oct 15, 2011, 23.46 >http://nbcu.mo2do.net/s/18488/29?itemId=tag:dvice.com,2011://3. 83661&fullPageURL=/archives/2011/10/speedy-neutrino.php > >Comments please! I'm a bit confused. While I may figure what the reference frame of a single GPS satellite is, I wonder what is the reference frame of any visible constellation of GPS satellites as a whole? Help please. Antonio I8IOV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speedy neutrino puzzle solved
At 05:46 PM 10/15/2011, Jim Palfreyman wrote... http://nbcu.mo2do.net/s/18488/29?itemId=tag:dvice.com,2011://3.83661&fullPageURL=/archives/2011/10/speedy-neutrino.php Comments please! What an annoying website. Here's a better source, without all the unnecessary pagination and pablum. http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2685 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speedy neutrino puzzle solved
>From mi...@flatsurface.com, Oct 16,2011, 01.50 > >At 05:46 PM 10/15/2011, Jim Palfreyman wrote... >>http://nbcu.mo2do.net/s/18488/29?itemId=tag:dvice.com,2011://3. 83661&fullPageURL=/archives/2011/10/speedy-neutrino.php >> >>Comments please! > >What an annoying website. > >Here's a better source, without all the unnecessary pagination and >pablum. http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2685 Well, the title of the paper is "Times of Flight between a Source and a Detector observed from a GPS satelite". From a single GPS satellite? Does this make any sense? Antonio I8IOV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speedy neutrino puzzle solved
>Well, the title of the paper is "Times of Flight between a Source and a >Detector observed from a GPS satelite". From a single GPS satellite? Does this >make any sense? >Antonio I8IOV And further, what the author states, in other words, would mean that the two clocks at Earth, in the frame in which the measurement was made, were off by 60 ns, isn't it? Antonio I8IOV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speedy neutrino puzzle solved
On 10/16/2011 01:50 AM, Mike S wrote: At 05:46 PM 10/15/2011, Jim Palfreyman wrote... http://nbcu.mo2do.net/s/18488/29?itemId=tag:dvice.com,2011://3.83661&fullPageURL=/archives/2011/10/speedy-neutrino.php Comments please! What an annoying website. Here's a better source, without all the unnecessary pagination and pablum. http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2685 Thanks. While the annoying website was scetchy in the science pub way, and also failed to explain why neutrinos would experiencing this but not photons, the paper is scetchy in that it makes quite rough assumptions on the GPS system as a time transfer mechanism AND fails to address the much tighter time difference of 2.4 ns that the time-transfer experiment achieved. It is a good comment that you need to consider the reference frame of GPS birds etc. It fails to analyze what is already being done and researched in that field. So no, I do not think this paper debunk the OPERA paper, at least not by itself. I'm to tired to make a detailed break-down right now, therefore my schetchy comments. I can dig up papers and provide detailed accounts if needed. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speedy neutrino puzzle solved
On 10/16/2011 01:59 AM, iov...@inwind.it wrote: From mi...@flatsurface.com, Oct 16,2011, 01.50 At 05:46 PM 10/15/2011, Jim Palfreyman wrote... http://nbcu.mo2do.net/s/18488/29?itemId=tag:dvice.com,2011://3. 83661&fullPageURL=/archives/2011/10/speedy-neutrino.php Comments please! What an annoying website. Here's a better source, without all the unnecessary pagination and pablum. http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2685 Well, the title of the paper is "Times of Flight between a Source and a Detector observed from a GPS satelite". From a single GPS satellite? Does this make any sense? Therein lies the prime weakness of that paper. It assumes that a single GPS bird was used, while in fact many was being used. It is an expansion of the statement: The Cs4000 oscillator provides the reference frequency to the PolaRx2e receiver, which is able to time-tag its “One Pulse Per Second” output (1PPS) with respect to the individual GPS satellite observations. However, more usefull information follows: The latter are processed offline by using the CGGTTS format [19]. The two systems feature a technology commonly used for high-accuracy time transfer applications [20]. They were calibrated by the Swiss Metrology Institute (METAS) [21] and established a permanent time link between two reference points (tCERN and tLNGS) of the timing chains of CERN and OPERA at the nanosecond level. This time link between CERN and OPERA was independently verified by the German Metrology Institute PTB (Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt) [22] by taking data at CERN and LNGS with a portable time-transfer device [23]. The difference between the time base of the CERN and OPERA PolaRx2e receivers was measured to be (2.3 ± 0.9) ns [22]. This correction was taken into account in the application of the time link. (Both quotes is from page 9 in the OPERA paper) For me, this reads out that they use common view for comparison of the cesium clocks, in which case main part of the time sent from the satelite would in fact cancel, and I also expect even more detailed effects like ionspherics is being canceled, which was not even covered. More details both of the processing actually done would assist, but I assume it will cover many of the relative effects that GPS time involves. However, this paper did not really provided a good insight into that. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speedy neutrino puzzle solved
El 16/10/2011 02:14, iov...@inwind.it escribió: And further, what the author states, in other words, would mean that the two clocks at Earth, in the frame in which the measurement was made, were off by 60 ns, isn't it? More or less :) I'm also not sure of the accuracy of the phrase "The clocks in the OPERA experiment are orbiting the earth in GPS satellites", since as far as I've understood the GPS is used to use common view for comparison of the Cs clocks. And it seems that the author does not know that relativity has already been taken into account in the GPS system. I'm of the same opinion as Magnus: I do not think that this paper will bebunk the OPERA one, not even a little :) Regards, Javier, EA1CRB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speedy neutrino puzzle solved
iov...@inwind.it said: > I'm a bit confused. While I may figure what the reference frame of a single > GPS satellite is, I wonder what is the reference frame of any visible > constellation of GPS satellites as a whole? Help please. You can pick any reference frame you want. Often it makes analyzing what is happening a lot simpler if you pick a particular one. You should get the same answer with a different reference frame, it just takes more work. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speedy neutrino puzzle solved
Mike S wrote: At 05:46 PM 10/15/2011, Jim Palfreyman wrote... http://nbcu.mo2do.net/s/18488/29?itemId=tag:dvice.com,2011://3.83661&fullPageURL=/archives/2011/10/speedy-neutrino.php Comments please! What an annoying website. Here's a better source, without all the unnecessary pagination and pablum. http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2685 and the original one in a more readable form: http://dvice.com/archives/2011/10/speedy-neutrino.php -- Bob Smither, PhD Circuit Concepts, Inc. = An armed society is a polite society. -- Robert Heinlein = smit...@c-c-i.com http://www.C-C-I.Com 281-331-2744(office) -4616(fax) <>___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speedy neutrino puzzle solved
I don't know what the experimental setup is. However if I were to be using GPS, I would use the GPS system to get a precise time at each end, record the time of the event that should generate the neutrino burst at one end precisely to a clock set by GPS and record the arrival time at the other end. The observation from the GPS frame is irrelevant if that way the experiment is performed. I would think the mathematics of GPS timing and calculations would already have the relativistic effects factored into constants. I vaguely recall such things in there, but the whole GPS system is something hard to retain and recall at this point to find references about that. I read some amount about the calculations in reading a patent some years ago which was to try to use a couple of PC's to do the calculations among other things, and had an analysis of the time required to do the calculations. I need to find it because there were estimates of how long each part of the system calculations took to justify that the scheme would work. I assumed that if one were solving a multi term equation of readings to arrive at a spatial value from the timing information that the motion of the satellites would have to have had the relativistic effects factored in. So it would not be present in my above description of the experiment. Jim On 10/15/2011 8:13 PM, Bob Smither wrote: Mike S wrote: At 05:46 PM 10/15/2011, Jim Palfreyman wrote... http://nbcu.mo2do.net/s/18488/29?itemId=tag:dvice.com,2011://3.83661&fullPageURL=/archives/2011/10/speedy-neutrino.php Comments please! What an annoying website. Here's a better source, without all the unnecessary pagination and pablum. http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2685 and the original one in a more readable form: http://dvice.com/archives/2011/10/speedy-neutrino.php ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Speedy neutrino puzzle solved
On 10/16/2011 02:39 AM, Javier Herrero wrote: El 16/10/2011 02:14, iov...@inwind.it escribió: And further, what the author states, in other words, would mean that the two clocks at Earth, in the frame in which the measurement was made, were off by 60 ns, isn't it? More or less :) I'm also not sure of the accuracy of the phrase "The clocks in the OPERA experiment are orbiting the earth in GPS satellites", since as far as I've understood the GPS is used to use common view for comparison of the Cs clocks. And it seems that the author does not know that relativity has already been taken into account in the GPS system. A first compensation of relativity is done by shifting the frequency such that the fixed satellite would use 10,23 MHz as observed from the earth. This frequency is used in 120, 154, 1 and 1/10 multiples for carries and chip-rate of pseudo-random noise in the set of gears providing time distribution. The one relative effect which they maybe didn't account for is the Sagnac effect, which Tom estimated being about 2.3 ns which matches the difference found in the time-difference testing. This effect comes from the spinning of the earth. Much of the effects is first degree compensated when doing a common view comparision, and the GPS clock is only a transfer clock, not the clock of the measurement. A much more detailed analysis would be required of the timing system then provided by that 4 page paper, detailing the processes in the GPS receivers, post-processing etc. Also, a full review of the timing system would need to analyse the internal distribution system and verify that on both sites. Also, the timing of the neutrinos in the detectors and their location when detected etc also needs to be looked at. So far, I have only been looking at this quickly and the reasonability of things being done correctly. Both the main paper and the PTB preliminary report is unsatisfactory in the details for full analysis, but they seem reasonable. I'm of the same opinion as Magnus: I do not think that this paper will bebunk the OPERA one, not even a little :) Indeed. It was a very sloppy attempt. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
