subject:"Re\: \[time\-nuts\] The home time\-lab"

And I will add a high voltage power resistor to limit the Q.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 22:12:53 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi
>
>If you try this, be very careful with the voltage at the junction of the L and 
>the C.
>
>Bob
>
>> On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:52 PM, David  wrote:
>> 
>> I wonder how well a pair of high voltage transformers wired back to
>> back with a 60 Hz series resonate LC circuit between them would work
>> for removing power line glitches.  They wouldn't do anything for
>> voltage regulation unlike a constant voltage transformer though.  Time
>> to break out a couple of plate transformers and try it I guess.
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Dave Brown

Be aware that operating CVTs at low loading (wrpt their rated load) will 
usually result in a low power factor. The nature of the load will influence 
this as well.

DaveB, NZ

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Stewart" 
To: "Brooke Clarke" ; "Discussion of Precise Time and 
Frequency Measurement" 

Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2016 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

OK, you pushed me over the edge. I ordered a Sola 63-23-210-8. Hopefully 
it'll do enough for most of the problems.

Bob

-
AE6RV.com

GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

 From: Brooke Clarke 
To: Bob Stewart 
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi Bob:

Just ordered a Sola SOLA 23-23-150-8 CONSTANT VOLTAGE TRANSFORMER 500VAon 
eBay for under $200 including shipping.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Bob Camp

Hi

If you try this, be very careful with the voltage at the junction of the L and 
the C.

Bob

> On Jul 8, 2016, at 9:52 PM, David  wrote:
> 
> I wonder how well a pair of high voltage transformers wired back to
> back with a 60 Hz series resonate LC circuit between them would work
> for removing power line glitches.  They wouldn't do anything for
> voltage regulation unlike a constant voltage transformer though.  Time
> to break out a couple of plate transformers and try it I guess.
> 
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 10:18:03 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> Hi Bob:
>> 
>> A resonate transformer may solve your problem.  I added one to my first 
>> computer, See Fig 1.
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg
>> The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the 
>> transformer and resonates at 60 Hz.  Think of 
>> it as a filter centered at 60 Hz and as an energy storage device.
>> This removes line spikes and fills in narrow line drop outs.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator#Constant-voltage_transformer
>> 
>> Here are models with capacities of: 300, 600, 1200 & 1800 VA:
>> http://www.hammondmfg.com/CVR.htm
>> Just search for "Constant-voltage transformer".
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

I wonder how well a pair of high voltage transformers wired back to
back with a 60 Hz series resonate LC circuit between them would work
for removing power line glitches.  They wouldn't do anything for
voltage regulation unlike a constant voltage transformer though.  Time
to break out a couple of plate transformers and try it I guess.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 10:18:03 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi Bob:
>
>A resonate transformer may solve your problem.  I added one to my first 
>computer, See Fig 1.
>http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP
>http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg
>The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the 
>transformer and resonates at 60 Hz.  Think of 
>it as a filter centered at 60 Hz and as an energy storage device.
>This removes line spikes and fills in narrow line drop outs.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator#Constant-voltage_transformer
>
>Here are models with capacities of: 300, 600, 1200 & 1800 VA:
>http://www.hammondmfg.com/CVR.htm
>Just search for "Constant-voltage transformer".
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Charles Steinmetz

Tim wrote:

> I strongly disagree.
>

What happens, is you have transformers, fluorescent ballasts, and motors
*  *  * in the vicinity of your lab equipment.  *  *  *  not even necessarily 
in the
same room  *  *  *  every time there's a sudden power cut, a large back-EMF
develops and then the power suddenly comes back on and then there's a
sudden large current as the magnetic fields are built back up. It's these
transient magnetic fields from your non-lab equipment, that is what's
disrupting your measurement.

If you now add a UPS in the vicinity of your lab equipment, and it of
course has a transformer in it, it will likely add to the disruption in a
power glitch.

Both theory and experience show that this is not the usual case.  (Note 
that certain grounding problems can make it appear initially as if there 
are magnetic-field problems, but closer analysis reveals that incorrect 
grounding is the actual cause.)

The magnetic fields you describe are very localized and diminish rapidly 
as you move away from the source.  The shielding normally provided by a 
metal (or even metallized plastic) housing is plenty to prevent most 
problems of this nature, and moving extremely sensitive circuits a few 
inches to a few feet is generally enough to resolve any remaining issues.

If magnetic fields were the main problem, it would be impossible to 
build and use stereo systems, televisions, telephones, and any sort of 
electronic device that monitors or controls anything. Every time the 
refrigerator started up, there would be a huge BANG through the stereo, 
TV, radio receivers, and telephone, and all of your shop electronics 
would go crazy.

The usual problem is glitches on the on-site AC mains supply, and 
properly designed and installed on-line UPS systems do a very fine job 
of cleaning that up.

Best regards,

Charles

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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Clay Autery

That has been my experience over the last 25 odd years...

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/8/2016 5:37 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:
> The usual problem is glitches on the on-site AC mains supply, and
> properly designed and installed on-line UPS systems do a very fine job
> of cleaning that up.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Charles Steinmetz


Bob wrote:


OK, you pushed me over the edge.  I ordered a Sola 63-23-210-8.


Hum

Best regards,

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Clay Autery

You do what you can do...

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/8/2016 1:27 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> Everyone else is talking as if these blips can be protected from, by having
> a UPS supplying your precious lab equipment.
>
> I strongly disagree.
>
> Tim N3QE
>
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi Tim,
I've learned a lot from the responses to my original post.  I had almost come 
to the conclusion that a UPS wasn't going to do it for me before I started 
this.  Unfortunately, I can't afford to have a Generac running 24/7, so I was 
hoping for alternatives.  The idea of an inverter type system sounds good in 
theory.  The cost and complications were a concern.  It's probably more of a 
case of "fear of the unknown" than anything else.  But, I was uncomfortable 
with actually going out on a limb and putting one together.  So, I ordered a 
1KVA Sola constant voltage transformer.  With any luck, it'll do enough that my 
testing will settle down.  If not, then I'm going to add a power-line monitor 
of the type using a small transformer and a sound card.  That would identify 
times where tests weren't reliable.  And that should be enough.

Thanks to everyone who posted.  I certainly got my money's worth!
Bob
 -
AE6RV.com

GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Tim Shoppa 
 To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement  
 Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 1:27 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
   
Everyone else is talking as if these blips can be protected from, by having a 
UPS supplying your precious lab equipment.
I strongly disagree.
What happens, is you have transformers, fluorescent ballasts, and motors (e.g. 
HVAC blowers) in the vicinity of your lab equipment. Probably on a completely 
different AC branch circuit, and not even necessarily in the same room but 
maybe in an adjacent room or above or below your lab. With an inductive load, 
every time there's a sudden power cut, a large back-EMF develops and then the 
power suddenly comes back on and then there's a sudden large current as the 
magnetic fields are built back up. It's these transient magnetic fields from 
your non-lab equipment, that is what's disrupting your measurement.
If you now add a UPS in the vicinity of your lab equipment, and it of course 
has a transformer in it, it will likely add to the disruption in a power glitch.
Of course things are a little different if you banish all AC power from a few 
hundred feet of your lab and only run sustaining charging current for the DC 
batteries developed in a far-away DC supply :-).
Tim N3QE
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:

I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my 
testing.

I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the 
two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, there was a long series 
of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely enough, there was nothing in the 
data collected directly from the unit involved.  The preceding two days we had 
had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut 
down.  So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of 
the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related.
So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand 
enough to waste my money on a bad one.  The two big questions seem to be 
"on-line" and "sine wave".  Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims?  Is 
there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W 
worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line 
transients?  Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power 
line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending 
data?  From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts.  Should I have 
been paying more attention?

Bob - AE6RV
 
---
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Scott McGrath

Best bet is to get 4 6v deep cycle batteries connect in series and connect a 
high quality power supply capable of supporting planned load and set output 
voltage to the selected 'float' voltage This will give you a setup which 
depending on batter rating could give you several days of backup power

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

> On Jul 8, 2016, at 12:53 PM, Wes  wrote:
> 
> I have for years powered much of my ham station with a 90AH SLA maintained 
> with a homemade "smart" charger. I used an analog Astron 35A power supply 
> (RS-35M) for its raw DC and series pass transistors with its regulator board 
> replaced with a (now obsolete) AA Engineering smart charger board.  This used 
> a uC3906 IC for control.  Capacity wise this was actually overkill for my 
> application as the charger could supply the total load.
> 
> Although many years ago I worked for the founders of Iota Engineering I have 
> no interest in the company other than as a satisfied customer.  That said, if 
> someone wants to pursue something similar I can recommend their power 
> supplies with their "smart charger" modules.  
> (http://iotaengineering.com/power.htm)
> 
> 
>> On 7/8/2016 12:08 AM, Hal Murray wrote:
>> i...@blackmountainforge.com said:
>>> There is a company in the USA that manufactures a product called
>>> BatteryTender - excellent float charger and maintainer. Costco sells them
>>> for $40
>> How do those types of chargers work when there is a load?
>> 
>> It's not the typical "float" there is also significant current going to the
>> thunderbolt.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

OK, you pushed me over the edge.  I ordered a Sola 63-23-210-8.  Hopefully 
it'll do enough for most of the problems.
Bob

 -
AE6RV.com

GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Brooke Clarke 
 To: Bob Stewart  
 Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 1:13 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
   
 Hi Bob:
 
 Just ordered a Sola SOLA 23-23-150-8 CONSTANT VOLTAGE TRANSFORMER 500VAon eBay 
for under $200 including shipping.
 -- 
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

  
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Tim Shoppa

Everyone else is talking as if these blips can be protected from, by having
a UPS supplying your precious lab equipment.

I strongly disagree.

What happens, is you have transformers, fluorescent ballasts, and motors
(e.g. HVAC blowers) in the vicinity of your lab equipment. Probably on a
completely different AC branch circuit, and not even necessarily in the
same room but maybe in an adjacent room or above or below your lab. With an
inductive load, every time there's a sudden power cut, a large back-EMF
develops and then the power suddenly comes back on and then there's a
sudden large current as the magnetic fields are built back up. It's these
transient magnetic fields from your non-lab equipment, that is what's
disrupting your measurement.

If you now add a UPS in the vicinity of your lab equipment, and it of
course has a transformer in it, it will likely add to the disruption in a
power glitch.

Of course things are a little different if you banish all AC power from a
few hundred feet of your lab and only run sustaining charging current for
the DC batteries developed in a far-away DC supply :-).

Tim N3QE

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:

> I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my
> testing.
>
> I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of
> the two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, there was a
> long series of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely enough, there was
> nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved.  The
> preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the
> lights blinked but nothing shut down.  So, putting one and one together, I
> suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has
> been power-grid related.
> So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even
> understand enough to waste my money on a bad one.  The two big questions
> seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave".  Make that three: can I trust the
> mfgs claims?  Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s
> and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be
> prey to power-line transients?  Or would it be more cost effective to
> somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests
> or cut out the offending data?  From time to time we get a thread on
> power-line nuts.  Should I have been paying more attention?
>
> Bob - AE6RV
>
>  
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Mark Spencer

I also have had good results with various APC UPS systems.   

I typically have to replace the batteries in my UPS's and my stand alone backup 
batteries every 5 to 7 years or so.   Units such as the HP105B and FTS1050 that 
feature backup DC power inputs simplify the provision of long term backup power 
in my experience.   

Last summer we had a two day power outage when I was away (so my generator 
sitting in the garage was of no use.)  My 100 amp hour battery system kept my 
HP105B and FTS1050 running while everything else lost power.  On occasion I've 
run my BVA from the battery system as well.   Using my HP5370's I've never been 
able to detect a difference in performance of my OCXO's running on battery 
power vs AC line power (or DC supplied from an HP linear supply in the case of 
the BVA.)

All the best
Mark Spencer

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 8, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Charles Steinmetz  wrote:
> 
> David wrote:
> 
>> This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do
>> not know how suitable it would be and it is more
>> than I paid although about twice as powerful:
>> 
>> http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx
> 
> I have a fleet of its bigger brothers, the 2000XL and 2200XL, and recommend 
> them highly.  The conversion engines are rated for continuous duty, so you 
> can add as many extra battery packs as you like to extend the run time (most 
> UPSs designed for home use -- even very expensive ones -- do not have enough 
> cooling to run continuously, so they depend on the battery going dead to keep 
> them from burning down).
> 
> That price is not bad, IMO, if they come with fresh, GOOD QUALITY batteries. 
> I strongly advise NOT using the generic black Chinese batteries -- IME, they 
> are worthless crap. If you live somewhere you can get genuine Panasonic SLA 
> batteries, use those [but BEWARE of fakes!!]. Here in the US, the PowerSonic 
> SLAs are the best I've found.  I get mine from "ecomelectronics" on ebay [no 
> affiliation, just a satisfied customer].
> 
> I have had no RF interference issues, or any other problems other than bad, 
> generic black Chinese batteries.  The APC supplies are rugged and 
> well-protected -- one battery pack I hadn't rebuilt (full of the generic 
> black batteries) failed in a spectacular fashion (sparks and smoke and melted 
> plastic *from the batteries*).  The UPS itself suffered no damage.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi Brooke,
Now that looks like it has promise.  I had forgotten about those.  I see a big 
selection on ebay.  Maybe I can find one large enough that doesn't have a large 
price.
Bob
 -
AE6RV.com

GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Brooke Clarke 
 To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement  
 Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 12:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
   
Hi Bob:

A resonate transformer may solve your problem.  I added one to my first 
computer, See Fig 1.
http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP
http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg
The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the 
transformer and resonates at 60 Hz.  Think of 
it as a filter centered at 60 Hz and as an energy storage device.
This removes line spikes and fills in narrow line drop outs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator#Constant-voltage_transformer

Here are models with capacities of: 300, 600, 1200 & 1800 VA:
http://www.hammondmfg.com/CVR.htm
Just search for "Constant-voltage transformer".

-- 
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 
> I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my 
> testing.
>
> I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the 
> two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, there was a long 
> series of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely enough, there was nothing 
> in the data collected directly from the unit involved.  The preceding two 
> days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but 
> nothing shut down.  So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair 
> percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid 
> related.
> So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even 
> understand enough to waste my money on a bad one.  The two big questions seem 
> to be "on-line" and "sine wave".  Make that three: can I trust the mfgs 
> claims?  Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and 
> maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to 
> power-line transients?  Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor 
> the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the 
> offending data?  From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts.  
> Should I have been paying more attention?
>
> Bob - AE6RV
>  
>---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp

In message <5846a3c3-16d4-28ae-af9c-743ff895b...@triconet.org>, Wes writes:

>Capacity wise this was actually overkill for my application as the 
>charger could supply the total load.

If you go the LVDC route, your charger should be able to supply at least
150% of your full load, so that you can also charge the batteries
after an outage...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Brooke Clarke

Hi Bob:

A resonate transformer may solve your problem. I added one to my first
computer, See Fig 1.
http://www.prc68.com/I/comp.shtml#SWTP
http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/SWTP-01b.jpg
The oval shaped silver can oil capacitor is connected to a winding on the transformer and resonates at 60 Hz. Think of
it as a filter centered at 60 Hz and as an energy storage device.

This removes line spikes and fills in narrow line drop outs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator#Constant-voltage_transformer

Here are models with capacities of: 300, 600, 1200 & 1800 VA:
http://www.hammondmfg.com/CVR.htm
Just search for "Constant-voltage transformer".

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

Original Message

I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my
testing.

Bob - AE6RV

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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Clay Autery

Bob,

I'm new to the time nut thing...  What is the 5370?  Full nomenclature
so I can read up on it.

I don't know how much power it draws, but I've ted to run all my HAM
(including the amps), networking, home theater, lab equipment, et al.
from appropriately sized batteries and charge the batts with linears. 
Mostly going to use LFP batts for the longevity and cell balancing.

I don't like weird crap creeping into my data either... be it instrument
or radio...  I'm building a "quiet zone".

Did the survey on JUST my house and found 53 SMPSs, and a bunch of AC
electrical wiring "mistakes", mostly grounds terminated at both ends, et
al...

73,

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/8/2016 12:46 AM, Bob Stewart wrote:
> Hi Clay,
> Powering the GPSDOs isn't a problem.  They run on 12V and draw less than an 
> amp.  The problem is that 5370 is a big hulking power sink and it appears 
> that when it's hit with a spike it lets its displeasure be known in the data.
> Bob 
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
>
>   From: Clay Autery 
>  To: time-nuts@febo.com 
>  Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 10:09 PM
>  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
>
> You'd be better off running the GPSDO off a LiFePO battery and float
> charge the battery with an appropriately constructed linear PS...
>
> ALL but the most expensive UPSs use switch-mode power supplies... to
> power the load when on mains.
>
> __
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
>
> On 7/7/2016 7:44 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:
>> I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my 
>> testing.
>>
>> I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the 
>> two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, there was a long 
>> series of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely enough, there was nothing 
>> in the data collected directly from the unit involved.  The preceding two 
>> days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked 
>> but nothing shut down.  So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a 
>> fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid 
>> related.
>> So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even 
>> understand enough to waste my money on a bad one.  The two big questions 
>> seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave".  Make that three: can I trust the mfgs 
>> claims?  Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and 
>> maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to 
>> power-line transients?  Or would it be more cost effective to somehow 
>> monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut 
>> out the offending data?  From time to time we get a thread on power-line 
>> nuts.  Should I have been paying more attention?
>>
>> Bob - AE6RV
>>   
>> ---
>> GFS GPSDO list:
>> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Charles Steinmetz


David wrote:


This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do
not know how suitable it would be and it is more
than I paid although about twice as powerful:

http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx


I have a fleet of its bigger brothers, the 2000XL and 2200XL, and 
recommend them highly.  The conversion engines are rated for continuous 
duty, so you can add as many extra battery packs as you like to extend 
the run time (most UPSs designed for home use -- even very expensive 
ones -- do not have enough cooling to run continuously, so they depend 
on the battery going dead to keep them from burning down).


That price is not bad, IMO, if they come with fresh, GOOD QUALITY 
batteries. I strongly advise NOT using the generic black Chinese 
batteries -- IME, they are worthless crap. If you live somewhere you can 
get genuine Panasonic SLA batteries, use those [but BEWARE of fakes!!]. 
Here in the US, the PowerSonic SLAs are the best I've found.  I get mine 
from "ecomelectronics" on ebay [no affiliation, just a satisfied customer].


I have had no RF interference issues, or any other problems other than 
bad, generic black Chinese batteries.  The APC supplies are rugged and 
well-protected -- one battery pack I hadn't rebuilt (full of the generic 
black batteries) failed in a spectacular fashion (sparks and smoke and 
melted plastic *from the batteries*).  The UPS itself suffered no damage.


Best regards,

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Wes

I have for years powered much of my ham station with a 90AH SLA maintained with 
a homemade "smart" charger. I used an analog Astron 35A power supply (RS-35M) 
for its raw DC and series pass transistors with its regulator board replaced 
with a (now obsolete) AA Engineering smart charger board.  This used a uC3906 IC 
for control.  Capacity wise this was actually overkill for my application as the 
charger could supply the total load.


Although many years ago I worked for the founders of Iota Engineering I have no 
interest in the company other than as a satisfied customer.  That said, if 
someone wants to pursue something similar I can recommend their power supplies 
with their "smart charger" modules.  (http://iotaengineering.com/power.htm)



On 7/8/2016 12:08 AM, Hal Murray wrote:

i...@blackmountainforge.com said:

There is a company in the USA that manufactures a product called
BatteryTender - excellent float charger and maintainer. Costco sells them
for $40

How do those types of chargers work when there is a load?

It's not the typical "float" there is also significant current going to the
thunderbolt.



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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Some UPSes like my old Powerware 9120 monitor the AC line condition
for various things and keep a log but I do not know if that would be
sufficient for what you have in mind.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 01:54:58 + (UTC), you wrote:

>So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep 
>cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter?  At this point in the process, a 
>power line monitor is looking like a good solution.  At least it would tell me 
>to ignore the test results.
>
>Bob
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 11:23:39 -0400, you wrote:

>David wrote:
>
>> This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do
>> not know how suitable it would be and it is more
>> than I paid although about twice as powerful:
>>
>> http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx
>
>I have a fleet of its bigger brothers, the 2000XL and 2200XL, and 
>recommend them highly.  The conversion engines are rated for continuous 
>duty, so you can add as many extra battery packs as you like to extend 
>the run time (most UPSs designed for home use -- even very expensive 
>ones -- do not have enough cooling to run continuously, so they depend 
>on the battery going dead to keep them from burning down).

Online or double conversion UPSes all have to be rated for continuous
duty.

I have an old Powerware 9120 which I bought new, two refurbished
Powerware Prestige EXTs, and two refurbished Leibert GTX2-700s.  The
Prestige EXTs are interesting because they can operate as line
conditioners without the batteries.  These all support external
batteries so I wonder if that is a ubiquitous feature with online
UPSes.

>That price is not bad, IMO, if they come with fresh, GOOD QUALITY 
>batteries. I strongly advise NOT using the generic black Chinese 
>batteries -- IME, they are worthless crap. If you live somewhere you can 
>get genuine Panasonic SLA batteries, use those [but BEWARE of fakes!!]. 
>Here in the US, the PowerSonic SLAs are the best I've found.  I get mine 
>from "ecomelectronics" on ebay [no affiliation, just a satisfied customer].

I am actually on the hunt for replacement batteries now so thanks for
the tip; I will check them out.

>I have had no RF interference issues, or any other problems other than 
>bad, generic black Chinese batteries.  The APC supplies are rugged and 
>well-protected -- one battery pack I hadn't rebuilt (full of the generic 
>black batteries) failed in a spectacular fashion (sparks and smoke and 
>melted plastic *from the batteries*).  The UPS itself suffered no damage.

The local HAM club has been looking for sine wave UPSes and inverters
which produce minimal RFI without much luck.
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Poul,
I wouldn't know the difference between a high-quality professional power line 
monitor and an also-ran.  Could you point me to a couple on ebay?
Bob

---
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Poul-Henning Kamp 
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement ; 
Hal Murray  
Cc: Bob Stewart 
 Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 1:52 AM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

In message <20160708041855.562d7406...@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Mu
rray writes:

>b...@evoria.net said:
>> So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both)

I've been staring at the 5370 PSU many times, it is a horribly inefficient
design.

The 5V rails are regulated down from 10V, the 15V rails down from
20V, so somewhere between 25% and 50% of the power becomes heat in
the series transistors.

A new A6 with four high quality DC/DC converters and some extra
filtering would be a really big improvement both heat and efficiency
wise.

It would be trivial to make such a design able to run from a 24V
Battery supply input as well

I havn't tried to measure the power-drain on the four regulated
rails, but from the short-circuit resistors it looks like less
than two amps on +/-15V and less than 10 amp on +/-5V ones.

>Yes, you can build your own UPS.  It would be interesting to see what the 
>parts cost totals out to.

Taking the detour around mains is a bad idea, everybody who can are
moving away from it.

>What did you have in mind for a power line monitor?

Plenty of high quality professional ones on eBay

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp      | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org        | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer      | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Gerhard Hoffmann


Am 08.07.2016 um 08:52 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:



A new A6 with four high quality DC/DC converters and some extra
filtering would be a really big improvement both heat and efficiency
wise.


I keep wondering how this tiny transformer in the SR620
can power that baking tray full of ECL.

regards, Gerhard
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Hal Murray


i...@blackmountainforge.com said:
> There is a company in the USA that manufactures a product called
> BatteryTender - excellent float charger and maintainer. Costco sells them
> for $40 

How do those types of chargers work when there is a load?

It's not the typical "float" there is also significant current going to the 
thunderbolt.

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 21:31:58 -0400, you wrote:

>If you decide to go the UPS route, dont bother with anything that does not 
>produce a sine wave 
>output. Modern power factor corrected stuff is a lot happier with sine waves 
>than with weird looking
>semi-square wave stuff.

Active power factor correction should not care about input wave shape
but it would not surprise me of there were poor designs which have
issues.  What happens with these?

>By far the most expensive gear is the stuff that runs full time. You take the 
>AC line and convert it to DC.
>That plus a battery supply the DC to sine wave converter. Everything 
>downstream runs off of the DC to 
>sine wave converter all the time. Since it always supplies the gear, it needs 
>to be big enough to supply
>whatever surge the gear requires.  That tends to make them a bit large 

I have a couple of used but refurbished online UPSes and they work
great.  I picked them up from either www.upsforless.com or
www.refurbups.com.  This is the only deal I see at the moment but I do
not know how suitable it would be and it is more than I paid although
about twice as powerful:

http://www.upsforless.com/apcsurta1500xlref.aspx

>None of the UPS systems take care of all issues. There are things like RFI and 
>ground isolation that 
>still *could* be an issue. To get into the next layer of that onion you go 
>with stuff like faraday cages and
>fairly big filters. 

Neutral and/or common mode filtering or the lack of it may be the
biggest problem.  A couple of years ago there was a change in UL
regulations for UPSes concerning how the neutral output is wired which
may have affected this:

http://www.apc.com/us/en/faqs/FA156549/
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-08 Thread Bob Camp

Hi

A 5335 / 5334 generation counter will spot a 30 ns blip. A modern MCU demo board
probably can to the same sort of thing. The cost of another (cheap) couple of 
counters
is probably less than mucking around with power line monitors and giant banks 
of batteries. 

The most likely output of a *really* good monitor: There is a blip of some sort 
about every
5 to 10 minutes forever and ever ….When there is bad weather they happen every 
few seconds up to
a few a second. Not a lot you can make sense out of ….

UPS’s (except for the continuous type) are designed with an “acceptable 
dropout” in mind. The assumption 
is that the gear downstream is OK with a cycle / half cycle / couple of cycles 
missing. Compared to the 
sort of things a really good line monitor catches, those are giant blips. Does 
a 5370 chug on through a 30 ms full
line drop out and go nuts on a 3.1 (or 30 or 0.3) us wide spike at 203V? Seems 
unlikely. If it does, the answer is a really 
good (screen room grade) line filter rather than a UPS of any sort. 

Here’s something to try that has not yet come up:

Grounding is more likely to be the issue than anything else. Having an isolated 
/ independantly grounded test space is a really 
good idea. You can get surplus isolation transformers into the couple of KVA 
range for mighty cheap prices. 
Coupled with a good  line filter they will take out a lot of mains related 
issues. They will also force you to
cable up everything to the new “good ground”. It might also drive you to look 
at how the GPS and other 
antennas are grounded  and isolated from the test system. Keep in mind this is 
*not* an un-grounded
system. There still is a proper ground on it. It just isn’t grounded who knows 
where and who knows how.

Bob

> On Jul 8, 2016, at 12:25 AM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> 
> Nothing looks good at the moment.  It may be that I just have to trust the 
> equipment testing and if there's a big blip that's not repeatable, then it 
> didn't happen.  No, I don't like it either.
> Bob 
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
> 
>  From: Hal Murray 
> To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
> measurement  
> Cc: Hal Murray ; hmur...@megapathdsl.net
> Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 11:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
> 
> 
> b...@evoria.net said:
>> So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep
>> cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter?  At this point in the process, a
>> power line monitor is looking like a good solution.  At least it would tell
>> me to ignore the test results.
> 
> Yes, you can build your own UPS.  It would be interesting to see what the 
> parts cost totals out to.
> 
> What did you have in mind for a power line monitor?
> 
> I didn't look very hard, but I didn't see anything interesting under $100.  
> My manual says the 5370 is 250 VA.  2 of those cuts out some of the low end 
> UPS units, but there are still several left under $100.
> 
> They will fix the blinking lights glitches.  They won't fix real power 
> outages that last for more than a few minutes.
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi Clay,
Powering the GPSDOs isn't a problem.  They run on 12V and draw less than an 
amp.  The problem is that 5370 is a big hulking power sink and it appears that 
when it's hit with a spike it lets its displeasure be known in the data.
Bob 
---
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Clay Autery 
 To: time-nuts@febo.com 
 Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 10:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
   
You'd be better off running the GPSDO off a LiFePO battery and float
charge the battery with an appropriately constructed linear PS...

ALL but the most expensive UPSs use switch-mode power supplies... to
power the load when on mains.

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/7/2016 7:44 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:
> I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my 
> testing.
>
> I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the 
> two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, there was a long 
> series of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely enough, there was nothing 
> in the data collected directly from the unit involved.  The preceding two 
> days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but 
> nothing shut down.  So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair 
> percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid 
> related.
> So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even 
> understand enough to waste my money on a bad one.  The two big questions seem 
> to be "on-line" and "sine wave".  Make that three: can I trust the mfgs 
> claims?  Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and 
> maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to 
> power-line transients?  Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor 
> the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the 
> offending data?  From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts.  
> Should I have been paying more attention?
>
> Bob - AE6RV
>  
>---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-07 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp

In message <20160708041855.562d7406...@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Mu
rray writes:

>b...@evoria.net said:
>> So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both)

I've been staring at the 5370 PSU many times, it is a horribly inefficient
design.

The 5V rails are regulated down from 10V, the 15V rails down from
20V, so somewhere between 25% and 50% of the power becomes heat in
the series transistors.

A new A6 with four high quality DC/DC converters and some extra
filtering would be a really big improvement both heat and efficiency
wise.

It would be trivial to make such a design able to run from a 24V
Battery supply input as well

I havn't tried to measure the power-drain on the four regulated
rails, but from the short-circuit resistors it looks like less
than two amps on +/-15V and less than 10 amp on +/-5V ones.

>Yes, you can build your own UPS.  It would be interesting to see what the 
>parts cost totals out to.

Taking the detour around mains is a bad idea, everybody who can are
moving away from it.

>What did you have in mind for a power line monitor?

Plenty of high quality professional ones on eBay

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-07 Thread DaveH

I have this set up in my radio room with ham radio equipment and my
thunderbolt. I got the same size battery as is in my truck so if that fails,
I have a drop-in replacement.

There is a company in the USA that manufactures a product called
BatteryTender - excellent float charger and maintainer. Costco sells them
for $40

http://www.costco.com/Battery-Tender-Power-Plus-3-Amp-Charger.product.100241
973.html

Dave

 

> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
> Of Jeremy Nichols
> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2016 18:12
> To: Bob Stewart; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
> 
> I recommend rigging up something to operate from storage 
> batteries for the
> rest, thus eliminating the power line temporarily.
> 
> Jeremy
> N6WFO
> 
> 
> On Thursday, July 7, 2016, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> > I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a 
> big impact on my
> > testing.
> >
> > I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing 
> the phase of
> > the two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, 
> there was a
> > long series of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely 
> enough, there was
> > nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved.  The
> > preceding two days we had had a number of switching 
> transients where the
> > lights blinked but nothing shut down.  So, putting one and 
> one together, I
> > suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've 
> been getting has
> > been power-grid related.
> > So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even
> > understand enough to waste my money on a bad one.  The two 
> big questions
> > seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave".  Make that three: can 
> I trust the
> > mfgs claims?  Is there something affordable that could run 
> a pair of 5370s
> > and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or 
> two and not be
> > prey to power-line transients?  Or would it be more cost 
> effective to
> > somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps 
> and blow off tests
> > or cut out the offending data?  From time to time we get a thread on
> > power-line nuts.  Should I have been paying more attention?
> >
> > Bob - AE6RV
> >
> >  
> --
> -
> > GFS GPSDO list:
> > groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com 
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab


Nothing looks good at the moment.  It may be that I just have to trust the 
equipment testing and if there's a big blip that's not repeatable, then it 
didn't happen.  No, I don't like it either.
Bob 
---
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Hal Murray 
 To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement  
Cc: Hal Murray ; hmur...@megapathdsl.net
 Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 11:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
   

b...@evoria.net said:
> So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep
> cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter?  At this point in the process, a
> power line monitor is looking like a good solution.  At least it would tell
> me to ignore the test results.

Yes, you can build your own UPS.  It would be interesting to see what the 
parts cost totals out to.

What did you have in mind for a power line monitor?

I didn't look very hard, but I didn't see anything interesting under $100.  
My manual says the 5370 is 250 VA.  2 of those cuts out some of the low end 
UPS units, but there are still several left under $100.

They will fix the blinking lights glitches.  They won't fix real power 
outages that last for more than a few minutes.


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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-07 Thread Clay Autery

You'd be better off running the GPSDO off a LiFePO battery and float
charge the battery with an appropriately constructed linear PS...

ALL but the most expensive UPSs use switch-mode power supplies... to
power the load when on mains.

__
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/7/2016 7:44 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:
> I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my 
> testing.
>
> I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the 
> two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, there was a long 
> series of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely enough, there was nothing 
> in the data collected directly from the unit involved.  The preceding two 
> days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but 
> nothing shut down.  So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair 
> percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid 
> related.
> So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even 
> understand enough to waste my money on a bad one.  The two big questions seem 
> to be "on-line" and "sine wave".  Make that three: can I trust the mfgs 
> claims?  Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and 
> maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to 
> power-line transients?  Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor 
> the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the 
> offending data?  From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts.  
> Should I have been paying more attention?
>
> Bob - AE6RV
>  
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-07 Thread Hal Murray


b...@evoria.net said:
> So, since I need to power the 5370 (preferably both) I'm looking at a deep
> cycle battery, a charger, and an inverter?  At this point in the process, a
> power line monitor is looking like a good solution.  At least it would tell
> me to ignore the test results.

Yes, you can build your own UPS.  It would be interesting to see what the 
parts cost totals out to.

What did you have in mind for a power line monitor?

I didn't look very hard, but I didn't see anything interesting under $100.  
My manual says the 5370 is 250 VA.  2 of those cuts out some of the low end 
UPS units, but there are still several left under $100.

They will fix the blinking lights glitches.  They won't fix real power 
outages that last for more than a few minutes.


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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi Bob,
They're spikes.  So, what I'll do is just keep a test like this running for the 
next few days as I do other things.  I'll go ahead and put it back on internal 
clock, just in case.  If I see nothing, I'm going to have to conclude it's the 
power line.  If bad weather comes back and they happen again, once again I have 
to conclude it's the power line.  

I haven't taken the time to go through either unit.  I'll try to make some time 
for that in the next few weeks.

Bob

---
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  From: Bob Camp 
 To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement  
 Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 10:17 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi

Have you been through the full alignment process on one or both of the 5370’s ? 
They are as much
an analog beast as they are digital. They *do* drift out of calibration / 
alignment / adjustment. When 
they go it’s usually not all of a sudden. They just gradually get worse and 
worse as the adjustments bake
away inside that hot box. 

===

35 ns pops are pretty big. Are you seeing spikes or are you seeing steps? 
Spikes can be just about 
anything, including the next door neighbor’s bug zapper. Steps are a bit more 
indicative of something 
actually wrong. In either case, a counter with far less resolution than a 5370 
can be used to help “triangulate”
the problem. A free running OCXO (or three) is also perfect for this sort of 
thing. 

Bob

> On Jul 7, 2016, at 10:16 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> Tim,
> There is one variable that I neglected to mention in the first response.  
> I've been unhappy with the stability of the 10811s in both 5370s.  So, for 
> this test, I'm using the 10MHz output from another one of my units to supply 
> the clock.  In the past 71,000 seconds of the retest, I'm seeing a phase 
> variance of only +60ps to -80ps in timelab with an "averaging window" of 0.
> 
> Bob
>  
>---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
> 
>      From: Tim Shoppa 
> To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
> measurement  
> Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 8:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
> 
> 1/35ns is about 30MHz. Is there anything in your clock chains that is ticking 
> at 30MHz, such that a false count or slipped count induced by inductive 
> disruption, would cause a 35ns phase jump?
> Related thread: https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2016-May/098028.html
> 
> Tim N3QE

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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-07 Thread Bob Camp

Hi

Have you been through the full alignment process on one or both of the 5370’s ? 
They are as much
an analog beast as they are digital. They *do* drift out of calibration / 
alignment / adjustment. When 
they go it’s usually not all of a sudden. They just gradually get worse and 
worse as the adjustments bake
away inside that hot box. 

===

35 ns pops are pretty big. Are you seeing spikes or are you seeing steps? 
Spikes can be just about 
anything, including the next door neighbor’s bug zapper. Steps are a bit more 
indicative of something 
actually wrong. In either case, a counter with far less resolution than a 5370 
can be used to help “triangulate”
the problem. A free running OCXO (or three) is also perfect for this sort of 
thing. 

Bob

> On Jul 7, 2016, at 10:16 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> Tim,
> There is one variable that I neglected to mention in the first response.  
> I've been unhappy with the stability of the 10811s in both 5370s.  So, for 
> this test, I'm using the 10MHz output from another one of my units to supply 
> the clock.  In the past 71,000 seconds of the retest, I'm seeing a phase 
> variance of only +60ps to -80ps in timelab with an "averaging window" of 0.
> 
> Bob
>  
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
> 
>  From: Tim Shoppa 
> To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
> measurement  
> Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 8:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
> 
> 1/35ns is about 30MHz. Is there anything in your clock chains that is ticking 
> at 30MHz, such that a false count or slipped count induced by inductive 
> disruption, would cause a 35ns phase jump?
> Related thread: https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2016-May/098028.html
> 
> Tim N3QE
> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my 
> testing.
> 
> I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the 
> two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, there was a long 
> series of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely enough, there was nothing 
> in the data collected directly from the unit involved.  The preceding two 
> days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but 
> nothing shut down.  So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair 
> percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid 
> related.
> So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even 
> understand enough to waste my money on a bad one.  The two big questions seem 
> to be "on-line" and "sine wave".  Make that three: can I trust the mfgs 
> claims?  Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and 
> maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to 
> power-line transients?  Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor 
> the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the 
> offending data?  From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts.  
> Should I have been paying more attention?
> 
> Bob - AE6RV
>  
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
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> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Tim,
There is one variable that I neglected to mention in the first response.  I've 
been unhappy with the stability of the 10811s in both 5370s.  So, for this 
test, I'm using the 10MHz output from another one of my units to supply the 
clock.  In the past 71,000 seconds of the retest, I'm seeing a phase variance 
of only +60ps to -80ps in timelab with an "averaging window" of 0.

Bob
 
---
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info

  From: Tim Shoppa 
 To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement  
 Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 8:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
   
1/35ns is about 30MHz. Is there anything in your clock chains that is ticking 
at 30MHz, such that a false count or slipped count induced by inductive 
disruption, would cause a 35ns phase jump?
Related thread: https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2016-May/098028.html

Tim N3QE
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:

I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my 
testing.

I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the 
two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, there was a long series 
of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely enough, there was nothing in the 
data collected directly from the unit involved.  The preceding two days we had 
had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut 
down.  So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of 
the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related.
So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand 
enough to waste my money on a bad one.  The two big questions seem to be 
"on-line" and "sine wave".  Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims?  Is 
there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W 
worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line 
transients?  Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power 
line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending 
data?  From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts.  Should I have 
been paying more attention?

Bob - AE6RV
 
---
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-07 Thread Bob Camp

Hi

As has been mentioned a few times before …. the best approach is to run 
batteries to supply the
gear in question off of DC power. Running everything off of it’s own battery 
may not be practical if
you have gear that is looking for 12V, 15V, 18V, 24V, 28V, 48V and -12V. The 
practical answer is
to pick a convenient voltage for the battery stack and derive the rest with 
switchers. 48V and 24V are
pretty good choices if you want to pick up surplus switchers cheap. 

If you decide to go the UPS route, don’t bother with anything that does not 
produce a sine wave 
output. Modern power factor corrected stuff is a lot happier with sine waves 
than with weird looking
semi-square wave stuff. 

By far the most expensive gear is the stuff that runs full time. You take the 
AC line and convert it to DC.
That plus a battery supply the DC to sine wave converter. Everything downstream 
runs off of the DC to 
sine wave converter all the time. Since it always supplies the gear, it needs 
to be big enough to supply
whatever surge the gear requires.  That tends to make them a bit large …

None of the UPS systems take care of all issues. There are things like RFI and 
ground isolation that 
still *could* be an issue. To get into the next layer of that onion you go with 
stuff like faraday cages and
fairly big filters. 

Lots of choices …. lots of money that could be spent. 

Bob

> On Jul 7, 2016, at 8:44 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
> I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my 
> testing.
> 
> I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the 
> two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, there was a long 
> series of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely enough, there was nothing 
> in the data collected directly from the unit involved.  The preceding two 
> days we had had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but 
> nothing shut down.  So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair 
> percentage of the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid 
> related.
> So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even 
> understand enough to waste my money on a bad one.  The two big questions seem 
> to be "on-line" and "sine wave".  Make that three: can I trust the mfgs 
> claims?  Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and 
> maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to 
> power-line transients?  Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor 
> the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the 
> offending data?  From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts.  
> Should I have been paying more attention?
> 
> Bob - AE6RV
>  
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

2016-07-07 Thread Hal Murray


b...@evoria.net said:
> So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even
> understand enough to waste my money on a bad one.

A UPS has 2 major properties.  One is the amount of power it can put out.  
The other is the battery size which translates into how long it will last.

The low cost market is for a unit that will last long enough to let a PC and 
friends shut down cleanly.  The battery isn't very big.  It will cover 
typical blink-the-lights glitches.  Beyond that, the time is measured in 
minutes rather than hours.


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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

Hi Tim,
I don't see how it could be related to a clock chain in my unit.  I'm quite 
literally running the two outputs from one unit through about a meter of coax 
each to the 5370.  These two outputs are from a single 74HCT365.  Pins 12 and 
14 of the chip (the inputs) are tied together, and pins 11 and 13 each go 
through a 50 ohm resistor and a 0.1uF cap to an SMA connector.  So, even if the 
software did something really bad, I don't see how it could cause such a blip 
in the data.  This should be measuring just the hardware, not the software.  
The other input to the 5370 is the PPS pulse from the LEA-6T on the unit 
buffered through a M74VHC1GT125, which I use to gate the time sample through 
the EXT input.  The EXT level is at preset.  And since I had had a few 
anomalies days before, I set the A and B channel levels to about midpoint in 
the active range.  I'm using 50 ohms, divide by 10, DC, positive slope on both 
inputs.  I had gotten the same sort of thing days before using preset 
 on all inputs.

By the way, I've seen exactly the same sort of thing on my other 5370.  It was 
one of the reasons I chose to get the "new" one.  So, unless it's something 
inherent to the 5370, it pretty much has to be something external to the test 
setup.  The only thing I can think of is the power grid.

Bob 
---
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  From: Tim Shoppa 
 To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement  
 Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2016 8:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab
   
1/35ns is about 30MHz. Is there anything in your clock chains that is ticking 
at 30MHz, such that a false count or slipped count induced by inductive 
disruption, would cause a 35ns phase jump?
Related thread: https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2016-May/098028.html

Tim N3QE
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:

I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my 
testing.

I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of the 
two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, there was a long series 
of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely enough, there was nothing in the 
data collected directly from the unit involved.  The preceding two days we had 
had a number of switching transients where the lights blinked but nothing shut 
down.  So, putting one and one together, I suspect that a fair percentage of 
the strange results I've been getting has been power-grid related.
So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even understand 
enough to waste my money on a bad one.  The two big questions seem to be 
"on-line" and "sine wave".  Make that three: can I trust the mfgs claims?  Is 
there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s and maybe another 50W 
worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be prey to power-line 
transients?  Or would it be more cost effective to somehow monitor the power 
line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests or cut out the offending 
data?  From time to time we get a thread on power-line nuts.  Should I have 
been paying more attention?

Bob - AE6RV
 
---
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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab