Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Since when is the Anarchist Cookbook censored??? I have an original copy that I'm saving for a sale about 30 years from now. ($$$ I hope) It's really a rather simple publication with too much obvious information and questionable recipes, or so I've been told by people who should know. Dave - Original Message - From: Mike Feher mfe...@eozinc.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2010 4:35:37 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Well, I really have not contributed much if anything to this thread, and this will be no exception. However, it does remind me of my youth and specifically of some of my non electronics related activities. Of course, what I am about to disclose below, today would label me a terrorist. In the late 50's and early 60's besides electronics, a bunch of my friends and I were also interested in explosives and the reactions that various chemical combinations could bring. All of the required ingredients were available in any drug store, off the shelf. None of our interests had to do with actually creating havoc, or harm, but just the ability to do them. The now censored The Anarchist Cookbook is a joke compared to what we used to improvise, and, no one ever got hurt. What triggered me to respond to this post was the explosion upon impact statement. I devised a very unique, at the time, device that worked just the way I wanted. I had a pump action .22 caliber air pistol, on which I made a mount to place a rifle scope. It was awesome. Anyway, the .22 pellets were hollow, so, inside, in the very front, I place the tip of a self igniting match and followed it with gunpowder. Gunpowder of course was readily available either from bullets (shot gun) or I just made it. Then I epoxied the end to seal it. Overnight they were ready to go. Real neat. When shot, upon impact, they of course would explode. Since at the time I was considered one of the brains at high school, and all my teachers were my buddies, they had no objection to me having this pistol in my briefcase at school. Heck, I even was a baby sitter for a lot of their kids, and, of course, I repaired their broken TVs and radios. I even helped one build a house. The last several years of HS, a lot of my teachers signed my yearbook as To 007. I still have those yearbooks, and the best is the one where one teacher signed it To 007 - From Dr. No. I better save the more volatile experiments and adventures for another time, as this has nothing to do with time-nuts, other than to prove that besides time, we are all kind of nuts. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc. 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 office 908-901-9193 cell -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hawkins Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 5:39 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Group, I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've contributed to others :^) If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for you! Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this over the area of the target that you intend to hit. When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate for the average 10X scope and photosensor. No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare. Yours for more creative solutions, Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
I also have an original that I found at a flea market for $2 about 5 years ago. CNN recently, on their web site, had a list of 10 censored books, and this was one of them. I am sure that only means that it is not readily available. Heck, even Uncle Tom's Cabin was on the list. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc. 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 office 908-901-9193 cell -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of d.sei...@comcast.net Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 2:16 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Since when is the Anarchist Cookbook censored??? I have an original copy that I'm saving for a sale about 30 years from now. ($$$ I hope) It's really a rather simple publication with too much obvious information and questionable recipes, or so I've been told by people who should know. Dave - Original Message - From: Mike Feher mfe...@eozinc.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2010 4:35:37 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Well, I really have not contributed much if anything to this thread, and this will be no exception. However, it does remind me of my youth and specifically of some of my non electronics related activities. Of course, what I am about to disclose below, today would label me a terrorist. In the late 50's and early 60's besides electronics, a bunch of my friends and I were also interested in explosives and the reactions that various chemical combinations could bring. All of the required ingredients were available in any drug store, off the shelf. None of our interests had to do with actually creating havoc, or harm, but just the ability to do them. The now censored The Anarchist Cookbook is a joke compared to what we used to improvise, and, no one ever got hurt. What triggered me to respond to this post was the explosion upon impact statement. I devised a very unique, at the time, device that worked just the way I wanted. I had a pump action .22 caliber air pistol, on which I made a mount to place a rifle scope. It was awesome. Anyway, the .22 pellets were hollow, so, inside, in the very front, I place the tip of a self igniting match and followed it with gunpowder. Gunpowder of course was readily available either from bullets (shot gun) or I just made it. Then I epoxied the end to seal it. Overnight they were ready to go. Real neat. When shot, upon impact, they of course would explode. Since at the time I was considered one of the brains at high school, and all my teachers were my buddies, they had no objection to me having this pistol in my briefcase at school. Heck, I even was a baby sitter for a lot of their kids, and, of course, I repaired their broken TVs and radios. I even helped one build a house. The last several years of HS, a lot of my teachers signed my yearbook as To 007. I still have those yearbooks, and the best is the one where one teacher signed it To 007 - From Dr. No. I better save the more volatile experiments and adventures for another time, as this has nothing to do with time-nuts, other than to prove that besides time, we are all kind of nuts. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc. 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 office 908-901-9193 cell -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hawkins Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 5:39 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Group, I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've contributed to others :^) If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for you! Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this over the area of the target that you intend to hit. When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate for the average 10X scope and photosensor. No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare. Yours for more creative solutions, Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Here are some exploding targets that are legal: http://www.tannerite.com/ A friend uses them and swears by them. On 11/3/2010 11:28 PM, jimlux wrote: Michael Conlen wrote: There's always nitroglycerin. I've heard it reacts well to vibration. nitromethane is much more readily available and also shock sensitive. Cyanoacrylate debonder. or glowplug fuel ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Be careful about giving legal advice. These are not legal where I live. Making explosives in any quantity is legal at a federal level in all 50 states without any kind of license but those darn states and cities make laws to restrict that. Mixing tannerite turns it into a federally, state, and locally regulated explosive which means at a very minimum the federal laws apply. This means no transporting it, storing it, buying it, selling it, etc. without an ATF license (this would fall under manufacturing regs which are related to commerce, not a physical act of mixing). This means if you mix it at home and transport to a range, you go to prison. Mix at the range and hold onto it over night, you go to prison. Throw it down range, can't find it, get caught, go to prison. Google for the ATF Orange Book that covers almost anything you want to know on the subject but it's only at the federal level. Always check state and local laws before toying with this stuff. Prison doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. Also, I noticed that the thread degenerated into nothing having to do with time measurement. I tend to restrict myself but felt I really needed to point out that legal in one place doesn't make it legal everywhere all of the time. -Bob (p.s. tannerite is flippin' awesome!) On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Heathkid heath...@heathkid.com wrote: Here are some exploding targets that are legal: http://www.tannerite.com/ A friend uses them and swears by them. On 11/3/2010 11:28 PM, jimlux wrote: Michael Conlen wrote: There's always nitroglycerin. I've heard it reacts well to vibration. nitromethane is much more readily available and also shock sensitive. Cyanoacrylate debonder. or glowplug fuel ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
I wasn't giving legal advice... just pointing out one can purchase the targets (not make them). Be legal and obey all laws... if you have to purchase through someone with a FFL make sure the transfer is legal (or even possible) and be responsible. Good advice Bob. But this did start out as a timing project thread. I just wanted to explain IF one can legally purchase these, they are available. I do not and did not suggest in any way that anyone makes explosives or do anything illegal. If someone is going to use these, I hope they have the smarts to know and understand the laws applicable to them. Always read and understand your local laws regarding purchase, ownership, and use of anything. I am not giving legal advice on anything. - Original Message - From: Robert Darlington rdarling...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Be careful about giving legal advice. These are not legal where I live. Making explosives in any quantity is legal at a federal level in all 50 states without any kind of license but those darn states and cities make laws to restrict that. Mixing tannerite turns it into a federally, state, and locally regulated explosive which means at a very minimum the federal laws apply. This means no transporting it, storing it, buying it, selling it, etc. without an ATF license (this would fall under manufacturing regs which are related to commerce, not a physical act of mixing). This means if you mix it at home and transport to a range, you go to prison. Mix at the range and hold onto it over night, you go to prison. Throw it down range, can't find it, get caught, go to prison. Google for the ATF Orange Book that covers almost anything you want to know on the subject but it's only at the federal level. Always check state and local laws before toying with this stuff. Prison doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. Also, I noticed that the thread degenerated into nothing having to do with time measurement. I tend to restrict myself but felt I really needed to point out that legal in one place doesn't make it legal everywhere all of the time. -Bob (p.s. tannerite is flippin' awesome!) On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Heathkid heath...@heathkid.com wrote: Here are some exploding targets that are legal: http://www.tannerite.com/ A friend uses them and swears by them. On 11/3/2010 11:28 PM, jimlux wrote: Michael Conlen wrote: There's always nitroglycerin. I've heard it reacts well to vibration. nitromethane is much more readily available and also shock sensitive. Cyanoacrylate debonder. or glowplug fuel ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
And that is why lawyers have taken over the world - fear of the unknown. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Heathkid Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 8:46 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... I wasn't giving legal advice... just pointing out one can purchase the targets (not make them). Be legal and obey all laws... if you have to purchase through someone with a FFL make sure the transfer is legal (or even possible) and be responsible. Good advice Bob. But this did start out as a timing project thread. I just wanted to explain IF one can legally purchase these, they are available. I do not and did not suggest in any way that anyone makes explosives or do anything illegal. If someone is going to use these, I hope they have the smarts to know and understand the laws applicable to them. Always read and understand your local laws regarding purchase, ownership, and use of anything. I am not giving legal advice on anything. - Original Message - From: Robert Darlington rdarling...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Be careful about giving legal advice. These are not legal where I live. Making explosives in any quantity is legal at a federal level in all 50 states without any kind of license but those darn states and cities make laws to restrict that. Mixing tannerite turns it into a federally, state, and locally regulated explosive which means at a very minimum the federal laws apply. This means no transporting it, storing it, buying it, selling it, etc. without an ATF license (this would fall under manufacturing regs which are related to commerce, not a physical act of mixing). This means if you mix it at home and transport to a range, you go to prison. Mix at the range and hold onto it over night, you go to prison. Throw it down range, can't find it, get caught, go to prison. Google for the ATF Orange Book that covers almost anything you want to know on the subject but it's only at the federal level. Always check state and local laws before toying with this stuff. Prison doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. Also, I noticed that the thread degenerated into nothing having to do with time measurement. I tend to restrict myself but felt I really needed to point out that legal in one place doesn't make it legal everywhere all of the time. -Bob (p.s. tannerite is flippin' awesome!) On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Heathkid heath...@heathkid.com wrote: Here are some exploding targets that are legal: http://www.tannerite.com/ A friend uses them and swears by them. On 11/3/2010 11:28 PM, jimlux wrote: Michael Conlen wrote: There's always nitroglycerin. I've heard it reacts well to vibration. nitromethane is much more readily available and also shock sensitive. Cyanoacrylate debonder. or glowplug fuel ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
My first chore is to investigate what kind of pulse rise-times I get from a selection of inexpensive ultrasonic sensors when a supersonic bullet passes within a couple of feet from them. I have a Tek 2252 scope that I can place downrange to look at the sensors with but storing the waveform for examination may be a problem (no one seems to have volunteered to stand downrange monitoring the scope screen!) The Tek 2252 has a Centronix screen-capture printer output but it is an Epson FX format and I have no idea if any current printers at the local Office Mart are compatible with the Epson FX data format. Anyone on the TimeNuts list have any thoughts on this? www.printcapture.com should be able to deal with the Epson format, I believe. They have a free trial version. The 2252 scope also has a GPIB port but I don't know if it outputs the printer data. I have a Sparkfun GPIB/USB dongle but that may not be of any use if there is no printer data on the GPIB port. It almost certainly will support dumping HPGL or Epson data to GPIB. -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
How about a rubber-mirror, adaptive optics? We use this on our large telescopes to overcome the atmospheric scintillation, otherwise known as speckle-patterns. Works exceedingly well... Atmospheric turbulence can be described by a Kolmogorov distribution, or equivalently as a chaotic attractor basin of fractal dimension between 6 and 7. Hence a feedback Perceptron neural network can be trained on the speckle sequences and this also works very well. That's how we did it on the Steward Observatory 90-inch. Dr. David McClain Chief Technical Officer Refined Audiometrics Laboratory 4391 N. Camino Ferreo Tucson, AZ 85750 email: d...@refined-audiometrics.com phone: 1.520.390.3995 web: http://refined-audiometrics.com On Nov 3, 2010, at 11:10, Michael Baker wrote: Timenutters-- The question was asked-- Why can't a large aperture high-resolution optic be used to locate bullet holes in a target at 800 yards? Consider this--: I often shoot at targets on the 600 yard berm at the Manatee Range (near Bradenton, FL). Typically, by 11AM the atmospheric shimmering mirage distortion makes even the 4 target hard to see. By 1PM the use of any rifle scope magnification greater than around 10X is an exercise in futility. Often, the mirage is severe enough that even the 12 steel plates are hard to find through a 10X scope. .30 holes in a target...? No way. - Other questions that were asked: To what degree of accuracy can the 800 yard distance be measured? I have a laser range-finder which has been verified to be within +/- 20 inches out to 1000 yards (the U of F college of Engineering has a series of distance marker posts set up for some research they were doing). What kind of accuracy is expected for measuring bullet velocity at the shooting bench and downrange? I have a set of Oehler Research sky-screen chronographs that use a 10MHz crystal for clocking the counting registers. The projectiles start out at roughly between 2750 FPS and 3100 fps and end up downrange not slower than around 1800 fps. Assume sky-screen clocking ambiguities of only a couple of clock pulses. As an aside, projectiles whose velocity drops to sub-sonic at 800 yds are of no interest to me. The transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic generally includes conditions that create inaccuracy. I am VERY grateful for the feedback on this topic! A couple of innovative suggestions from list members have given me food for thought and I am going to pursue looking into them. My first chore is to investigate what kind of pulse rise-times I get from a selection of inexpensive ultrasonic sensors when a supersonic bullet passes within a couple of feet from them. I have a Tek 2252 scope that I can place downrange to look at the sensors with but storing the waveform for examination may be a problem (no one seems to have volunteered to stand downrange monitoring the scope screen!) The Tek 2252 has a Centronix screen-capture printer output but it is an Epson FX format and I have no idea if any current printers at the local Office Mart are compatible with the Epson FX data format. Anyone on the TimeNuts list have any thoughts on this? The 2252 scope also has a GPIB port but I don't know if it outputs the printer data. I have a Sparkfun GPIB/USB dongle but that may not be of any use if there is no printer data on the GPIB port. Mike Baker --- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Group, I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've contributed to others :^) If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for you! Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this over the area of the target that you intend to hit. When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate for the average 10X scope and photosensor. No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare. Yours for more creative solutions, Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it. -Original Message- From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:b...@iaxs.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Group, I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've contributed to others :^) If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for you! Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this over the area of the target that you intend to hit. When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate for the average 10X scope and photosensor. No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare. Yours for more creative solutions, Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it yourself. Put on the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry... On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net wrote: Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it. -Original Message- From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:b...@iaxs.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Group, I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've contributed to others :^) If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for you! Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this over the area of the target that you intend to hit. When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate for the average 10X scope and photosensor. No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare. Yours for more creative solutions, Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Hi After each shot you need to haul a new batch down range. How many trips do you think you would make successfully ... I know, this is going to tie it all back into the dreaded time of death thread ... yikes ... did I do that Bob On Nov 3, 2010, at 5:55 PM, William H. Fite wrote: Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it yourself. Put on the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry... On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net wrote: Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it. -Original Message- From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:b...@iaxs.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Group, I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've contributed to others :^) If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for you! Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this over the area of the target that you intend to hit. When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate for the average 10X scope and photosensor. No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare. Yours for more creative solutions, Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
time-nuts-boun...@febo.com wrote on 11/03/2010 05:55:16 PM: From: William H. Fite omni...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Date: 11/03/2010 05:55 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Sent by: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it yourself. Put on the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry... But it's too sensitive - a fly landing on the dry crystals will do. Joe Gwinn On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net wrote: Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it. -Original Message- From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:b...@iaxs.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Group, I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've contributed to others :^) If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for you! Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this over the area of the target that you intend to hit. When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate for the average 10X scope and photosensor. No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare. Yours for more creative solutions, Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/ listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Hi Roughly speaking, you know the distance to 0.1%. If the electronics are good to 0.01% they aren't going to contribute a significant amount of error. A fairly modest bare crystal will do quite nicely for the time base. No need to go any further. If you want to go time-nutty, put in a cell phone TCXO at both ends. That will easily get you sub 0.001%. In all cases a simple adjustment to net them together would be required every so often (yearly ...). The only real issue left is how to sync the counter at the far end to the start time. The RF link sounds like a good candidate for the job. Bob On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:10 PM, Michael Baker wrote: Timenutters-- The question was asked-- Why can't a large aperture high-resolution optic be used to locate bullet holes in a target at 800 yards? Consider this--: I often shoot at targets on the 600 yard berm at the Manatee Range (near Bradenton, FL). Typically, by 11AM the atmospheric shimmering mirage distortion makes even the 4 target hard to see. By 1PM the use of any rifle scope magnification greater than around 10X is an exercise in futility. Often, the mirage is severe enough that even the 12 steel plates are hard to find through a 10X scope. .30 holes in a target...? No way. - Other questions that were asked: To what degree of accuracy can the 800 yard distance be measured? I have a laser range-finder which has been verified to be within +/- 20 inches out to 1000 yards (the U of F college of Engineering has a series of distance marker posts set up for some research they were doing). What kind of accuracy is expected for measuring bullet velocity at the shooting bench and downrange? I have a set of Oehler Research sky-screen chronographs that use a 10MHz crystal for clocking the counting registers. The projectiles start out at roughly between 2750 FPS and 3100 fps and end up downrange not slower than around 1800 fps. Assume sky-screen clocking ambiguities of only a couple of clock pulses. As an aside, projectiles whose velocity drops to sub-sonic at 800 yds are of no interest to me. The transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic generally includes conditions that create inaccuracy. I am VERY grateful for the feedback on this topic! A couple of innovative suggestions from list members have given me food for thought and I am going to pursue looking into them. My first chore is to investigate what kind of pulse rise-times I get from a selection of inexpensive ultrasonic sensors when a supersonic bullet passes within a couple of feet from them. I have a Tek 2252 scope that I can place downrange to look at the sensors with but storing the waveform for examination may be a problem (no one seems to have volunteered to stand downrange monitoring the scope screen!) The Tek 2252 has a Centronix screen-capture printer output but it is an Epson FX format and I have no idea if any current printers at the local Office Mart are compatible with the Epson FX data format. Anyone on the TimeNuts list have any thoughts on this? The 2252 scope also has a GPIB port but I don't know if it outputs the printer data. I have a Sparkfun GPIB/USB dongle but that may not be of any use if there is no printer data on the GPIB port. Mike Baker --- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Yep. Makes life interesting. [?] On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 6:02 PM, Joseph M Gwinn gw...@raytheon.com wrote: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com wrote on 11/03/2010 05:55:16 PM: From: William H. Fite omni...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Date: 11/03/2010 05:55 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Sent by: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it yourself. Put on the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry... But it's too sensitive - a fly landing on the dry crystals will do. Joe Gwinn On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net wrote: Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it. -Original Message- From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:b...@iaxs.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Group, I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've contributed to others :^) If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for you! Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this over the area of the target that you intend to hit. When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate for the average 10X scope and photosensor. No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare. Yours for more creative solutions, Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/ listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. 343.gif___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Well, I really have not contributed much if anything to this thread, and this will be no exception. However, it does remind me of my youth and specifically of some of my non electronics related activities. Of course, what I am about to disclose below, today would label me a terrorist. In the late 50's and early 60's besides electronics, a bunch of my friends and I were also interested in explosives and the reactions that various chemical combinations could bring. All of the required ingredients were available in any drug store, off the shelf. None of our interests had to do with actually creating havoc, or harm, but just the ability to do them. The now censored The Anarchist Cookbook is a joke compared to what we used to improvise, and, no one ever got hurt. What triggered me to respond to this post was the explosion upon impact statement. I devised a very unique, at the time, device that worked just the way I wanted. I had a pump action .22 caliber air pistol, on which I made a mount to place a rifle scope. It was awesome. Anyway, the .22 pellets were hollow, so, inside, in the very front, I place the tip of a self igniting match and followed it with gunpowder. Gunpowder of course was readily available either from bullets (shot gun) or I just made it. Then I epoxied the end to seal it. Overnight they were ready to go. Real neat. When shot, upon impact, they of course would explode. Since at the time I was considered one of the brains at high school, and all my teachers were my buddies, they had no objection to me having this pistol in my briefcase at school. Heck, I even was a baby sitter for a lot of their kids, and, of course, I repaired their broken TVs and radios. I even helped one build a house. The last several years of HS, a lot of my teachers signed my yearbook as To 007. I still have those yearbooks, and the best is the one where one teacher signed it To 007 - From Dr. No. I better save the more volatile experiments and adventures for another time, as this has nothing to do with time-nuts, other than to prove that besides time, we are all kind of nuts. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc. 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 office 908-901-9193 cell -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hawkins Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 5:39 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Group, I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've contributed to others :^) If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for you! Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this over the area of the target that you intend to hit. When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate for the average 10X scope and photosensor. No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare. Yours for more creative solutions, Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
On 11/3/2010 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it. And be sure to wear gloves to prevent direct skin absorption of the nitro (usually not mentioned on the MSDS.) Other wise you may loose some time. Stan, W1LE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
There's always nitroglycerin. I've heard it reacts well to vibration. -- Mike On Nov 3, 2010, at 5:55 PM, William H. Fite wrote: Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it yourself. Put on the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry... On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net wrote: Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it. -Original Message- From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:b...@iaxs.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds... Group, I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've contributed to others :^) If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for you! Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this over the area of the target that you intend to hit. When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate for the average 10X scope and photosensor. No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare. Yours for more creative solutions, Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Michael Conlen wrote: There's always nitroglycerin. I've heard it reacts well to vibration. nitromethane is much more readily available and also shock sensitive. Cyanoacrylate debonder. or glowplug fuel ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
