Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Art Sepin]

Timing product manufacturers used a variety of OEM GPS timing receivers over 
the years including the Motorola Oncore series. The 1024 Week-Roll-Over dates 
for Oncore receivers, computed from the firmware version compile date, are 
listed here:

http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/motorola%20oncore%201024%20week%20roll.pdf

Synergy is adding 8 channel Motorola binary commands to our u-Blox based 
SSR-6Tf OEM timing receiver that plugs into an Oncore 8 channel slot - 
available "soon."

Art Sepin

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 2:54 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>
Cc: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover


petervince1...@gmail.com said:
> Can I just ask why the Z3801As are  having week roll-over problems now 
> - I didn't think it was 2048 weeks since GPS "zero-hour" until late on 
> the 6th of April 2019?

It's probably 1024 weeks since a date was built into the firmware.

It's like the year 2000 problem.  If you aren't worried about old people and I 
tell you somebody was born in 03, you can assume that's 2003 rather than 1903.  
For GPS, a handy value for the cutoff is the date the firmware was built.  Any 
date that looks like it is older than the firmware is probably off by a 
rollover.


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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[paul swed]

The gps rcvr does not have a batter but will indeed support an external
battery.
I attached 2 AA batteries in a external easily replaceable holder and ran
the 2 wires to the receiver 10 pin plug. (At least I think it was 10)
I change the batteries every 2 years not so much for voltage as concern for
leakage. Then use the old battery in my wireless mouse.

On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 12:51 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:

> The Z3801A status page takes 3 seconds to process/send.  Not surprising
> that the time is a bit off.  Lady Heather only requests the SYST:STAT
> message once per minute (at hh:mm:33 seconds) because it blocks the unit
> from doing anything else while it is handling it.  The main things
> extracted from the status screen are the satellite positions and signal
> levels.
>
> The Z3801A T1/T2 message times are correct.  The end of the message that
> sends the T2 time arrives around 20 msecs before the 1PPS pulse.
>
> I don't see a battery anywhere... there might be a capacitor, but, if so,
> it is not a large super-cap type unit.
>
> --
>
> >  There seem to be two internal versions of time
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Hal Murray]

kb...@n1k.org said:
> The bigger problem for NTP is when the leap second correction process is
> thrown off by the “time warp”. When leap seconds get fixed in  mid-August
> rather than the end of June … not a good thing. 

Is that still a problem?  If so, do you have any details.  I don't know of 
any leap-second bugs that haven't been fixed.

The usual most-recent problem is that GPS now announces the pending leap many 
months in advance and some of the drivers didn't have a June/December filter. 
 So the system would do bogus leaps at the end of all the months between the 
start-of-announce and the right one.


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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Magnus Danielson]

On 09/09/2016 01:17 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi



On Sep 9, 2016, at 3:06 AM, Magnus Danielson  wrote:

Hi,

On 09/08/2016 11:53 PM, Hal Murray wrote:


petervince1...@gmail.com said:

Can I just ask why the Z3801As are  having week roll-over problems now - I
didn't think it was 2048 weeks since GPS "zero-hour" until late on the 6th
of April 2019?


It's probably 1024 weeks since a date was built into the firmware.

It's like the year 2000 problem.  If you aren't worried about old people and
I tell you somebody was born in 03, you can assume that's 2003 rather than
1903.  For GPS, a handy value for the cutoff is the date the firmware was
built.  Any date that looks like it is older than the firmware is probably
off by a rollover.


We had this discussion in NTP context, and people where saying "We won't fix 
receiver problems" and where not helpful. When I explained how GPS time actually 
worked and just showing how the receivers was attempting to correct the GPS signal 
behaviors they realized that 1024 week wrap-around is more of a GPS generic problem and 
accepting time modulus 1024 weeks was not too hard. I don't know if that ever made it 
into the code thought.


The bigger problem for NTP is when the leap second correction process is thrown 
off by the “time warp”. When leap seconds get fixed in
mid-August rather than the end of June … not a good thing.


Uhm, not same bug.

The UTC offset message is expressed in GPS-week modulo 256, so if it is 
off modulo 1024 does not care, it can adjust leap-second corrections 
correctly even if it's can display the correct date.


Naturally, you can implement this incorrectly.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Bob Camp]

Hi


> On Sep 9, 2016, at 3:06 AM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On 09/08/2016 11:53 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>> 
>> petervince1...@gmail.com said:
>>> Can I just ask why the Z3801As are  having week roll-over problems now - I
>>> didn't think it was 2048 weeks since GPS "zero-hour" until late on the 6th
>>> of April 2019?
>> 
>> It's probably 1024 weeks since a date was built into the firmware.
>> 
>> It's like the year 2000 problem.  If you aren't worried about old people and
>> I tell you somebody was born in 03, you can assume that's 2003 rather than
>> 1903.  For GPS, a handy value for the cutoff is the date the firmware was
>> built.  Any date that looks like it is older than the firmware is probably
>> off by a rollover.
> 
> We had this discussion in NTP context, and people where saying "We won't fix 
> receiver problems" and where not helpful. When I explained how GPS time 
> actually worked and just showing how the receivers was attempting to correct 
> the GPS signal behaviors they realized that 1024 week wrap-around is more of 
> a GPS generic problem and accepting time modulus 1024 weeks was not too hard. 
> I don't know if that ever made it into the code thought.

The bigger problem for NTP is when the leap second correction process is thrown 
off by the “time warp”. When leap seconds get fixed in 
mid-August rather than the end of June … not a good thing.

Bob

> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 09/08/2016 11:53 PM, Hal Murray wrote:


petervince1...@gmail.com said:

Can I just ask why the Z3801As are  having week roll-over problems now - I
didn't think it was 2048 weeks since GPS "zero-hour" until late on the 6th
of April 2019?


It's probably 1024 weeks since a date was built into the firmware.

It's like the year 2000 problem.  If you aren't worried about old people and
I tell you somebody was born in 03, you can assume that's 2003 rather than
1903.  For GPS, a handy value for the cutoff is the date the firmware was
built.  Any date that looks like it is older than the firmware is probably
off by a rollover.


We had this discussion in NTP context, and people where saying "We won't 
fix receiver problems" and where not helpful. When I explained how GPS 
time actually worked and just showing how the receivers was attempting 
to correct the GPS signal behaviors they realized that 1024 week 
wrap-around is more of a GPS generic problem and accepting time modulus 
1024 weeks was not too hard. I don't know if that ever made it into the 
code thought.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Hal Murray]

hol...@hotmail.com said:
> Happy until the next power glitch...  the setting does not seem to persist
> between boots.   There may also be other conditions that causes it to forget
> your date. 

I just power cycled mine.  It came back correct without setting the date.

I've assumed there is a tiny battery on the GPS board and that it is very old 
by now so it may not last very long.

The first try was only a few seconds.  I tried again, waiting longer.  Maybe 
a minute but I didn't time it.  It worked again.

-

There seem to be two internal versions of time.  I have a hack that asks for 
the time, then displays a status page, the sleeps for a while in a loop.  The 
T2 time is different from the status page time.  It also looks like the 
status page time is a second or two behind.

#  T2201609092893+0143
>> Power-up: GPS acquisition  Holdover Uncertainty
Tracking: 0Not Tracking: 6UTC  11:59:56 [?] 01 Jan 
2007

#  T2201609095893+0146
>> Power-up: GPS acquisition  Holdover Uncertainty
Tracking: 0Not Tracking: 6UTC  12:00:09 [?] 01 Jan 
2007

#  T22016090900012893+0144
>> Power-up: GPS acquisition  Holdover Uncertainty
Tracking: 0Not Tracking: 6UTC  12:00:39 [?] 01 Jan 
2007

#  T22016090900015893+0147
>> Power-up: GPS acquisition  Holdover Uncertainty
Tracking: 0Not Tracking: 6UTC  12:01:09 [?] 01 Jan 
2007

#  T22016090900022893+0145
>> Power-up: GPS acquisition  Holdover Uncertainty
Tracking: 1Not Tracking: 7UTC  03:28:35 [?] 09 Sep 
2016

#  T22016090900025893+0148
>> Power-up: coarse freq adj [TI -95.91 ms]   Holdover Uncertainty
Tracking: 2Not Tracking: 6UTC  03:29:04 [?] 09 Sep 
2016

#  T22016090900032763+0142
>> Power-up: fine freq adj   [TI +101.0 ns]   Holdover Uncertainty
Tracking: 3Not Tracking: 5UTC  03:29:34 [?] 09 Sep 
2016

#  T22016090900035763+0145
>> Power-up: phase alignment [TI +128.0 ns]   Holdover Uncertainty 
Tracking: 4Not Tracking: 4UTC  03:30:04 [?] 09 Sep 
2016

#  T22016090903303241+003C
>> Locked to GPS: stabilizing frequency   TFOM 4 FFOM 
1
Tracking: 4Not Tracking: 4UTC  03:30:31 09 Sep 
2016

#  T22016090903310241+003A
>> Locked to GPS: stabilizing frequency   TFOM 4 FFOM 
1
Tracking: 3Not Tracking: 5UTC  03:31:01 09 Sep 
2016

#  T22016090903313241+003D
>> Locked to GPS: stabilizing frequency   TFOM 4 FFOM 
1
Tracking: 3Not Tracking: 6UTC  03:31:31 09 Sep 
2016

#  T22016090903320241+003B
>> Locked to GPS: stabilizing frequency   TFOM 4 FFOM 
1
Tracking: 3Not Tracking: 6UTC  03:32:01 09 Sep 
2016

#  T22016090903323241+003E
>> Locked to GPS: stabilizing frequency   TFOM 4 FFOM 
1
Tracking: 3Not Tracking: 6UTC  03:32:31 09 Sep 
2016

#  T22016090903330231+003B
>> Locked to GPS: stabilizing frequency   TFOM 3 FFOM 
1
Tracking: 3Not Tracking: 6UTC  03:33:01 09 Sep 
2016




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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Peter Vince]

That makes sense - thanks guys!

 Peter


On 8 September 2016 at 22:53, Hal Murray  wrote:

>
> petervince1...@gmail.com said:
> > Can I just ask why the Z3801As are  having week roll-over problems now -
> I
> > didn't think it was 2048 weeks since GPS "zero-hour" until late on the
> 6th
> > of April 2019?
>
> It's probably 1024 weeks since a date was built into the firmware.
>
> It's like the year 2000 problem.  If you aren't worried about old people
> and
> I tell you somebody was born in 03, you can assume that's 2003 rather than
> 1903.  For GPS, a handy value for the cutoff is the date the firmware was
> built.  Any date that looks like it is older than the firmware is probably
> off by a rollover.
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Hal Murray]

petervince1...@gmail.com said:
> Can I just ask why the Z3801As are  having week roll-over problems now - I
> didn't think it was 2048 weeks since GPS "zero-hour" until late on the 6th
> of April 2019? 

It's probably 1024 weeks since a date was built into the firmware.

It's like the year 2000 problem.  If you aren't worried about old people and 
I tell you somebody was born in 03, you can assume that's 2003 rather than 
1903.  For GPS, a handy value for the cutoff is the date the firmware was 
built.  Any date that looks like it is older than the firmware is probably 
off by a rollover.


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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Bob Camp]

Hi

After the first batch of GPS devices rolled over, the manufacturers came up 
with a “fix”
for the problem. If the date came out to a number *before* the firmware was 
issued, 
it was corrected forward in time. This only works over a single span of GPS 
dates. 
Depending on when the firmware you have was issued, the failure can occur at 
any time.

Bob

> On Sep 8, 2016, at 4:34 PM, Peter Vince  wrote:
> 
> Can I just ask why the Z3801As are  having week roll-over problems now - I
> didn't think it was 2048 weeks since GPS "zero-hour" until late on the 6th
> of April 2019?
> 
> Peter
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Peter Vince]

Can I just ask why the Z3801As are  having week roll-over problems now - I
didn't think it was 2048 weeks since GPS "zero-hour" until late on the 6th
of April 2019?

Peter
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[paul swed]

Tom,
Right on the pps and frequency. I should have been far more clear date and
time.
I fired up my 3801 and it locked up just fine. Need to check its message to
see whats its putting out.
I will say that I added 2 AA batteries that seem to be lasting for several
years easily and they keep the memory in the GPS engine going and maybe
that keeps the date and time correct so that once you have corrected the
date and time maybe it sticks.
Regards
Paul.

On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Tom Van Baak <t...@leapsecond.com> wrote:

> Paul,
>
> IIRC, we've never heard reports of GPSDO pulse or frequency outputs being
> affected by rollovers. In GPS there are internal rollovers every 1, 256,
> and 1024 weeks but the 1PPS and 10 MHz outputs are not dependent on any of
> these events. The same is true for leap seconds; they may be mishandled by
> some GPS receivers, but they have no effect on 1PPS or 10 MHz outputs.
>
> /tvb
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "paul swed" <paulsw...@gmail.com>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 8:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover
>
>
> > Mark,
> > From some earlier threads on rollovers. Do you even need to set the time
> at
> > all?
> > Granted not great if the 3801 is a time source, but if its just frequency
> > do you care?
> > Thanks
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 11:30 AM, Mark Sims <hol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Happy until the next power glitch...  the setting does not seem to
> persist
> >> between boots.   There may also be other conditions that causes it to
> >> forget your date.
> >>
> >> And when setting the date, you should disconnect the antenna first, then
> >> power on.  Once the unit starts tracking satellites you can no longer
> enter
> >> the date.
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> >>
> >> > I had one that screwed up.  I power cycled and set the date.  It's
> happy
> >> now.
> >> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Tom Van Baak]

Paul,

IIRC, we've never heard reports of GPSDO pulse or frequency outputs being 
affected by rollovers. In GPS there are internal rollovers every 1, 256, and 
1024 weeks but the 1PPS and 10 MHz outputs are not dependent on any of these 
events. The same is true for leap seconds; they may be mishandled by some GPS 
receivers, but they have no effect on 1PPS or 10 MHz outputs.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "paul swed" <paulsw...@gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover


> Mark,
> From some earlier threads on rollovers. Do you even need to set the time at
> all?
> Granted not great if the 3801 is a time source, but if its just frequency
> do you care?
> Thanks
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 11:30 AM, Mark Sims <hol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Happy until the next power glitch...  the setting does not seem to persist
>> between boots.   There may also be other conditions that causes it to
>> forget your date.
>>
>> And when setting the date, you should disconnect the antenna first, then
>> power on.  Once the unit starts tracking satellites you can no longer enter
>> the date.
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> > I had one that screwed up.  I power cycled and set the date.  It's happy
>> now.
>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[paul swed]

Mark,
>From some earlier threads on rollovers. Do you even need to set the time at
all?
Granted not great if the 3801 is a time source, but if its just frequency
do you care?
Thanks
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 11:30 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:

> Happy until the next power glitch...  the setting does not seem to persist
> between boots.   There may also be other conditions that causes it to
> forget your date.
>
> And when setting the date, you should disconnect the antenna first, then
> power on.  Once the unit starts tracking satellites you can no longer enter
> the date.
>
>
> ---
>
> > I had one that screwed up.  I power cycled and set the date.  It's happy
> now.
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Hal Murray]

I had one that screwed up.  I power cycled and set the date.  It's happy now.


I'm not sure of the exact recipe to tell it the right date.  After feeding it 
a date of roughly today, the status screen jumped to Jan 2007.  After it 
found a few satellites and such, it jumped to Sep 2016.


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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Magnus Danielson]

That would be sunday midnight, GPS time, as GPS time-gears have GPS week 
shift between saturday and sunday. This naturally makes Monday extra 
monday as the system that fail do it during sunday.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 09/05/2016 06:29 AM, Mark Sims wrote:

I did a little math on the dates and it looks like the rollover happened in the 
last couple of days...
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Hal Murray]

hol...@hotmail.com said:
>  I did a little math on the dates and it looks like the rollover happened in
> the last couple of days...

Thanks for the heads up.

Mine started on Aug 17th

/var/log/ntp/clockstats.20160817:57617 2.033 127.127.26.1 
T21997010102300103
8  64 0

That's from ntpd's clockstats which only logs every 64 samples.

Is there a date code in the serial number (or anyplace else)?  I have 2 
units.  One has rolled over.  The other hasn't (yet).
  HEWLETT-PACKARD,Z3801A,3542A01377,3543-A
  HEWLETT-PACKARD,Z3801A,3542A04389,3543-A



Years ago, I powered up a unit that been off for a long time.  It came up 
with the wrong date.  Feeding it the date before it got lock solved the 
problem.  (Or something like that.)  Has anybody tried that yet?

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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The rollover is in the GPS module firmware. If you dig into it, they didn't 
quite update the firmware once every 3 months, but almost that often. Each 
manufacturer latched onto various versions as they sailed by. None of them had 
a validation process that could keep up with 4 releases a year...

Bob

> On Sep 5, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Ben Hall  wrote:
> 
>> On 9/4/2016 10:48 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
>> Sometime (I didn't have it connected) in  the last couple of weeks
>> my Z3801A went into gps week rollover.
>> 
>> If you have a Z3801A that had been working properly you might want to
>> check yours.  Different firmware versions roll over at different
>> times.
> 
> My Z3801 seems to be working fine, reporting today as 05 Sep 2016:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, it had been off for a long time prior to it going back online in 
> December 2014.  When I fired it back up, it did misreport the date until I 
> forced with, the set time command I believe?
> 
> I've never been able to figure out the self-test error.  It keeps 
> working...so I keep using it...  ;)
> 
> 14 years of power-on time...  :)
> 
> thanks much and 73,
> ben, kd5byb
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A gps week rollover

[Ben Hall]

On 9/4/2016 10:48 PM, Mark Sims wrote:

Sometime (I didn't have it connected) in  the last couple of weeks
my Z3801A went into gps week rollover.

If you have a Z3801A that had been working properly you might want to
check yours.  Different firmware versions roll over at different
times.


My Z3801 seems to be working fine, reporting today as 05 Sep 2016:



That said, it had been off for a long time prior to it going back online 
in December 2014.  When I fired it back up, it did misreport the date 
until I forced with, the set time command I believe?


I've never been able to figure out the self-test error.  It keeps 
working...so I keep using it...  ;)


14 years of power-on time...  :)

thanks much and 73,
ben, kd5byb
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