Re: [time-nuts] modern electronics education/jobs (was:
A mentor of mine did airplane wiring during WW II. They initially used cable lacing that was likely similar to your Collins method. What they found was a machine gun bullet that penetrated the airframe caused more damage due to the laced cable bundles. At some point the changed to just laying the cables in the wiring trays. (It could have been Korea instead of WW II, but he is SK so I cannot ask him to refresh my memory.). Rob, NC0B Sent from my iPad > On Nov 15, 2015, at 9:01 AM, "flar...@yahoo.dk" wrote: > > > > I went to Collins soldering school in the late 1960's. I also learned to tie > the special Collins-knot for wrapping wires into neat cable bundles for > airplanes, and still remember how to do both. > I also built a 6-digit clock using TTL chips and nixie tubes in the early > 1970's. Looked great and worked well, but kept horrible time ... which let me > on a search for a better timebase, with no way to check accuracy, which led > me to build a 5-digit frequency counter, also using nixie tubes and with an > MK5009N oscillator and timebase. With nothing to compare it to, I started to > search for a way to use a local radio station (Kalundborg LW on 245kHz), and > later WWVB, for calibration. One project led to another, and eventually > landed me on this list. > And I agree, don't solder in the nude or while wearing shorts, and don't walk > barefoot in your workshop. > > From: Mark Sims > > When I was in high school (early 1970's) I designed and built my own alarm > clock out of TTL... (none of that sticking the guts of a commercial alarm > clock in a pencil case that get kids arrested today). Also built my first > computer by interfacing a TV Typewriter to a calculator chip. I was well > skilled in the dark arts of soldering (hint: don't solder in the nude) and > wire wrapping. > > There is no substitute for hands-on experience, learning, and experimenting > (particularly when it comes to soldering in the nude going wrong, or the > subtle wonders of stepping bare foot on a legs-up TO3 power transistor). > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > > -- > If this email is spam, report it to > https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTgyNTYwODA2Nzpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] modern electronics education/jobs (was:
I went to Collins soldering school in the late 1960's. I also learned to tie the special Collins-knot for wrapping wires into neat cable bundles for airplanes, and still remember how to do both. I also built a 6-digit clock using TTL chips and nixie tubes in the early 1970's. Looked great and worked well, but kept horrible time ... which let me on a search for a better timebase, with no way to check accuracy, which led me to build a 5-digit frequency counter, also using nixie tubes and with an MK5009N oscillator and timebase. With nothing to compare it to, I started to search for a way to use a local radio station (Kalundborg LW on 245kHz), and later WWVB, for calibration. One project led to another, and eventually landed me on this list. And I agree, don't solder in the nude or while wearing shorts, and don't walk barefoot in your workshop. From: Mark Sims When I was in high school (early 1970's) I designed and built my own alarm clock out of TTL... (none of that sticking the guts of a commercial alarm clock in a pencil case that get kids arrested today). Also built my first computer by interfacing a TV Typewriter to a calculator chip. I was well skilled in the dark arts of soldering (hint: don't solder in the nude) and wire wrapping. There is no substitute for hands-on experience, learning, and experimenting (particularly when it comes to soldering in the nude going wrong, or the subtle wonders of stepping bare foot on a legs-up TO3 power transistor). ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] modern electronics education/jobs (was:
Am Thu, 12 Nov 2015 18:14:57 -0800 schrieb "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" : > > > On 11/12/2015 1:01 PM, William Schrempp wrote: > > > > has failed. I hear old machinists complaining about new machinists > > who can't drill a hole if the drill-press isn't > > computer-controlled. And in my work, nurse education, I see > > students who can't be bothered to learn how to take a manual > > blood-pressure, because a machine can now do it (sort of). Much to > > ponder here. . . . > > > Bill Schrempp > > > > This reminds me of a summer job I had as a lab assistant between my > freshman and sophomore years at college. There were a couple of > journeyman machinists with Bridgeport mills. They didn't let me > use them, but they did patiently teach me how to use the drill > press, taps, hacksaw, etc to make simple parts that didn't require > their skills. They told me that, in Germany, a kid training to be > a machinist would start out by being given a file, a pair of calipers, > and a rough block of metal. His task was to make a perfect cube with > sides of exactly 1 cm by 1 cm. Only after mastering that, would > he be allowed to move onto more advanced equipment. And that's been actually quite true. Not too long ago - well, around year 2000 - when I was just about to finish high school in Germany, we had a class in a machine shop. We were literally given one single piece of steel of about 10x10x20cm, and were to make a pretty nice PCB holder out of it. The only tools allowed for most of it were a set of files and a saw. Only after we managed to get most of the parts done according to the drawing - and they were tested to be nicely rectangular, to size and pretty flat on all sides - we were allowed to drill the missing holes and tap a few threads. Only the most skilled were finally allowed to turn the screws for the class on a lathe... > Fortunately, the > machinists just told me this story to scare me, but they didn't make > me file a perfect cube. They did tell me I needed to learn to drill > holes with 0.005 inch accuracy using a machinist's scale and a center > punch to lay them out. > Well, 5 mil shouldn't be too difficult if some care is taken. Of course this also depends a lot on the material used, dull or mis-centered drill bits certaily can destroy alignment and hole sizes easily... Best regards, Florian ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] modern electronics education/jobs (was:
Hi Ok, I believe I first heard this “the kids don’t know nothing” story back in the early to mid 1960’s. Pretty much the same comments. Kids out of school never saw a soldering iron ever. All they know is theory, nothing practical. If only it was like the “good old days”. Back then we put the all the junior engineers down on the furnace for two years or so to learn how to shovel coal. No that’s not a joke, actually quite far from it. That approach was pretty common in the 1950’s and still hung on for quite a while in some companies. So here’s the question: I hear a lot about “I never did learn to program and don’t want to start now” from various people. I would suggest that roughly 100% of the kids coming out of just about any tech school today can write code pretty darn well. At least all the ones I’ve run into can. Which do you think they will have more use for, coding or soldering irons? Not that either is un-important. Knowing how to stoke a furnace was indeed important. It’s a matter of what’s likely to be more useful to them as time moves on. There’s an awful lot of quick soldering jobs these days that go to a gal who does a better job in her sleep than I could do on my best day. Fine pitch soldering is easy to mess up. Shipping out a part with a problem is a *much* bigger deal than it used to be. It’s not going to be long before that’s the only way it will be done. Skilled professionals do it or it’s not done. Bob > On Nov 14, 2015, at 7:17 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > When I got to a fancy school where they build satellites, I thought for > sure my soldering iron skills would be useful for doing all the fancy stuff. > > But no! The satellites were built by a team of highly skilled ladies who > looked completely down on the amateurish skills of us wannabes. And I > include in the wannabes, the professor who had a Nobel prize! > > My skills putting together circuits from handbooks for real experiments > were put to good use. Knowing how to use a scope and to not put the ammeter > in parallel with the power supply, was very useful. But no way was I as > good as the ladies who actually built the satellites. > > Tim N3QE > > On Saturday, November 14, 2015, Ray Xu wrote: > >> Hi guys, >> >> Your mostly-lurking EE (and, recently, also physics) undergraduate student >> here. >> >> You guys make me feel nostalgic for my young age of >> almost-legal-to-drink-in-the-US! >> >> I wish I can reply to all of you one by one but I'd rather not clog the >> mailing list with more off-topic discussion. (Feel free to email me >> off-list) >> >> I just have to say I have a deep appreciation for the previous generation >> of electronics and technology and engineers (you guys). I personally feel >> like I've been born into the wrong generation, or at least "conflicted" >> between the two generations of electronics. I still enjoy hands-on >> DIY-building, soldering, dead-bug style prototyping, and etc at home but it >> definitely is starting to become obsolete and antiquated. On the other >> hand, I also enjoy working in research labs with the cutting-edge. In the >> former, time slows down and its just a matter of mostly applying >> knowledge. In the latter, time passes by quickly and its all about >> intellectual growth. >> >> When I was younger, I frequently interacted with engineers that used to be >> involved in the defense industry during the Cold War/Viet/Korean War era. >> They are now mostly retired. They were my main source of knowledge, and as >> a consequence, I grew up learning analog electronics by actual >> breadboarding, hand-soldering, playing with oscilloscopes, and reading The >> Art Of Electronics during my free time. It wasn't until relatively >> recently I started using LTSpice. I have never touched an Arduino or >> Raspberry Pi and I probably never want to*; I learned microcontrollers on >> my own using the PIC platform and in a few of my courses on the ARM and >> "LC3" platform. Perhaps the biggest contributor towards my passion and >> desire to learn about electronics is my family. My father bought me a >> brand new Tek oscilloscope during ~7th grade and made it clear to me that >> he will spend money for my hobby if it meant I will have the opportunity to >> learn. (This was significant, because from where I grew up, the Asian >> parents were stereotypically notorious for being frugal and only cared what >> their son's/daughter's GPA and test scores were) >> >> In the research (the "cutting-edge") world, I actually find my past and DIY >> experience useful in gaining an intuitive understanding of a problem or >> design challenge at hand. >> >> In the classroom, I heavily agree that most of my peers need more hands-on >> experience. Seriously, some people still can't explain why knowing the >> power dissipation of a resistor is important. Or how much current is >> flowing through a pull-low or pull-high bias resistor. Or what happens >> when you
Re: [time-nuts] modern electronics education/jobs (was:
When I got to a fancy school where they build satellites, I thought for sure my soldering iron skills would be useful for doing all the fancy stuff. But no! The satellites were built by a team of highly skilled ladies who looked completely down on the amateurish skills of us wannabes. And I include in the wannabes, the professor who had a Nobel prize! My skills putting together circuits from handbooks for real experiments were put to good use. Knowing how to use a scope and to not put the ammeter in parallel with the power supply, was very useful. But no way was I as good as the ladies who actually built the satellites. Tim N3QE On Saturday, November 14, 2015, Ray Xu wrote: > Hi guys, > > Your mostly-lurking EE (and, recently, also physics) undergraduate student > here. > > You guys make me feel nostalgic for my young age of > almost-legal-to-drink-in-the-US! > > I wish I can reply to all of you one by one but I'd rather not clog the > mailing list with more off-topic discussion. (Feel free to email me > off-list) > > I just have to say I have a deep appreciation for the previous generation > of electronics and technology and engineers (you guys). I personally feel > like I've been born into the wrong generation, or at least "conflicted" > between the two generations of electronics. I still enjoy hands-on > DIY-building, soldering, dead-bug style prototyping, and etc at home but it > definitely is starting to become obsolete and antiquated. On the other > hand, I also enjoy working in research labs with the cutting-edge. In the > former, time slows down and its just a matter of mostly applying > knowledge. In the latter, time passes by quickly and its all about > intellectual growth. > > When I was younger, I frequently interacted with engineers that used to be > involved in the defense industry during the Cold War/Viet/Korean War era. > They are now mostly retired. They were my main source of knowledge, and as > a consequence, I grew up learning analog electronics by actual > breadboarding, hand-soldering, playing with oscilloscopes, and reading The > Art Of Electronics during my free time. It wasn't until relatively > recently I started using LTSpice. I have never touched an Arduino or > Raspberry Pi and I probably never want to*; I learned microcontrollers on > my own using the PIC platform and in a few of my courses on the ARM and > "LC3" platform. Perhaps the biggest contributor towards my passion and > desire to learn about electronics is my family. My father bought me a > brand new Tek oscilloscope during ~7th grade and made it clear to me that > he will spend money for my hobby if it meant I will have the opportunity to > learn. (This was significant, because from where I grew up, the Asian > parents were stereotypically notorious for being frugal and only cared what > their son's/daughter's GPA and test scores were) > > In the research (the "cutting-edge") world, I actually find my past and DIY > experience useful in gaining an intuitive understanding of a problem or > design challenge at hand. > > In the classroom, I heavily agree that most of my peers need more hands-on > experience. Seriously, some people still can't explain why knowing the > power dissipation of a resistor is important. Or how much current is > flowing through a pull-low or pull-high bias resistor. Or what happens > when you have a simple RC circuit (without having to write a transfer > function). It's kind of disturbing. Maybe after I've obtained my PhD, I'd > like to propose serious changes to the undergraduate EE curriculum of my > university. > > Keep it up guys. If any of you are in the Austin, TX or Dallas, TX area, I > am willing to meet up in person. > > > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist < > rich...@karlquist.com > wrote: > > > > > > > On 11/12/2015 1:01 PM, William Schrempp wrote: > > > >> > >> has failed. I hear old machinists complaining about new machinists who > >> can't > >> drill a hole if the drill-press isn't computer-controlled. And in my > work, > >> nurse education, I see students who can't be bothered to learn how to > >> take a > >> manual blood-pressure, because a machine can now do it (sort of). Much > to > >> ponder here. . . . > >> > > > > Bill Schrempp > >> > >> > > This reminds me of a summer job I had as a lab assistant between my > > freshman and sophomore years at college. There were a couple of > > journeyman machinists with Bridgeport mills. They didn't let me > > use them, but they did patiently teach me how to use the drill > > press, taps, hacksaw, etc to make simple parts that didn't require > > their skills. They told me that, in Germany, a kid training to be > > a machinist would start out by being given a file, a pair of calipers, > > and a rough block of metal. His task was to make a perfect cube with > > sides of exactly 1 cm by 1 cm. Only after mastering that, would > > he be allowed to move onto more advanced equipment. Fortun
Re: [time-nuts] modern electronics education/jobs (was:
Hi guys, Your mostly-lurking EE (and, recently, also physics) undergraduate student here. You guys make me feel nostalgic for my young age of almost-legal-to-drink-in-the-US! I wish I can reply to all of you one by one but I'd rather not clog the mailing list with more off-topic discussion. (Feel free to email me off-list) I just have to say I have a deep appreciation for the previous generation of electronics and technology and engineers (you guys). I personally feel like I've been born into the wrong generation, or at least "conflicted" between the two generations of electronics. I still enjoy hands-on DIY-building, soldering, dead-bug style prototyping, and etc at home but it definitely is starting to become obsolete and antiquated. On the other hand, I also enjoy working in research labs with the cutting-edge. In the former, time slows down and its just a matter of mostly applying knowledge. In the latter, time passes by quickly and its all about intellectual growth. When I was younger, I frequently interacted with engineers that used to be involved in the defense industry during the Cold War/Viet/Korean War era. They are now mostly retired. They were my main source of knowledge, and as a consequence, I grew up learning analog electronics by actual breadboarding, hand-soldering, playing with oscilloscopes, and reading The Art Of Electronics during my free time. It wasn't until relatively recently I started using LTSpice. I have never touched an Arduino or Raspberry Pi and I probably never want to*; I learned microcontrollers on my own using the PIC platform and in a few of my courses on the ARM and "LC3" platform. Perhaps the biggest contributor towards my passion and desire to learn about electronics is my family. My father bought me a brand new Tek oscilloscope during ~7th grade and made it clear to me that he will spend money for my hobby if it meant I will have the opportunity to learn. (This was significant, because from where I grew up, the Asian parents were stereotypically notorious for being frugal and only cared what their son's/daughter's GPA and test scores were) In the research (the "cutting-edge") world, I actually find my past and DIY experience useful in gaining an intuitive understanding of a problem or design challenge at hand. In the classroom, I heavily agree that most of my peers need more hands-on experience. Seriously, some people still can't explain why knowing the power dissipation of a resistor is important. Or how much current is flowing through a pull-low or pull-high bias resistor. Or what happens when you have a simple RC circuit (without having to write a transfer function). It's kind of disturbing. Maybe after I've obtained my PhD, I'd like to propose serious changes to the undergraduate EE curriculum of my university. Keep it up guys. If any of you are in the Austin, TX or Dallas, TX area, I am willing to meet up in person. On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist < rich...@karlquist.com> wrote: > > > On 11/12/2015 1:01 PM, William Schrempp wrote: > >> >> has failed. I hear old machinists complaining about new machinists who >> can't >> drill a hole if the drill-press isn't computer-controlled. And in my work, >> nurse education, I see students who can't be bothered to learn how to >> take a >> manual blood-pressure, because a machine can now do it (sort of). Much to >> ponder here. . . . >> > > Bill Schrempp >> >> > This reminds me of a summer job I had as a lab assistant between my > freshman and sophomore years at college. There were a couple of > journeyman machinists with Bridgeport mills. They didn't let me > use them, but they did patiently teach me how to use the drill > press, taps, hacksaw, etc to make simple parts that didn't require > their skills. They told me that, in Germany, a kid training to be > a machinist would start out by being given a file, a pair of calipers, > and a rough block of metal. His task was to make a perfect cube with > sides of exactly 1 cm by 1 cm. Only after mastering that, would > he be allowed to move onto more advanced equipment. Fortunately, the > machinists just told me this story to scare me, but they didn't make me > file a perfect cube. They did tell me I needed to learn to drill holes > with 0.005 inch accuracy using a machinist's scale and a center > punch to lay them out. > > Rick > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- -- __ Ray Xu http://www.utdallas.edu/~rxx110130 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] modern electronics education/jobs (was:
On 11/12/2015 1:01 PM, William Schrempp wrote: has failed. I hear old machinists complaining about new machinists who can't drill a hole if the drill-press isn't computer-controlled. And in my work, nurse education, I see students who can't be bothered to learn how to take a manual blood-pressure, because a machine can now do it (sort of). Much to ponder here. . . . Bill Schrempp This reminds me of a summer job I had as a lab assistant between my freshman and sophomore years at college. There were a couple of journeyman machinists with Bridgeport mills. They didn't let me use them, but they did patiently teach me how to use the drill press, taps, hacksaw, etc to make simple parts that didn't require their skills. They told me that, in Germany, a kid training to be a machinist would start out by being given a file, a pair of calipers, and a rough block of metal. His task was to make a perfect cube with sides of exactly 1 cm by 1 cm. Only after mastering that, would he be allowed to move onto more advanced equipment. Fortunately, the machinists just told me this story to scare me, but they didn't make me file a perfect cube. They did tell me I needed to learn to drill holes with 0.005 inch accuracy using a machinist's scale and a center punch to lay them out. Rick ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] modern electronics education/jobs (was:
Hi Indeed there is a bit of a shift in focus that has gone on. Look at a “kid” in the 1960’s and the same today: In the 60’s stuff like radios were the tech target of choice. Today it’s servers and game computers. No less passion, no less craziness. A different target. Today a *lot* of time gets devoted to the internet and video games. In the 60’s the focus rarely included either one. Stuff like Ham radio was bigger then. In the 60’s if you wanted a this or a that, you grabbed a handful of parts and a soldering iron. Today, you grab a compiler or an Arduino shield. (Try hand soldering a BGA). In the 60’s stuff like Heathkits were the low cost leader for this and that. Today there is simply no way for a kit to compete with a mass produced item. In the 60’s we were all going to be wiped out by atomic disaster. Today it’s a bunch of guys with IED’s. (Some things never change). In the 60’s the furthest you could go in math at most high schools was about 2 years short of what you can hit these days. In the 60’s the idea of a high school student heading off to another continent on a multi week scholarship program … not so much. These days it’s common enough that I know people who have done it (CERN no less). Yes, a lot’s changed. Not all of it is for the worse. Bob > On Nov 12, 2015, at 4:01 PM, William Schrempp > wrote: > > Interesting discussion! How much is this the familiar spectacle of old coots > (I am one of them) harrumphing about the younger generation and how things > are now going to hell? And how much is it a well-justified lament and elegy > over a true golden age and how its important and honorable skills are now > being disvalued and forgotten? I certainly hear concerns in many quarters > about how technology is dumbing us down. The FAA is said to be worried about > commercial pilots who can barely hand-fly the airplane whose Flight Director > has failed. I hear old machinists complaining about new machinists who can't > drill a hole if the drill-press isn't computer-controlled. And in my work, > nurse education, I see students who can't be bothered to learn how to take a > manual blood-pressure, because a machine can now do it (sort of). Much to > ponder here. . . . > > > > Bill Schrempp > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
