Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock
There have been a few television documentaries over the years on the Carrington event of 1859. https://www.history.com/news/a-perfect-solar-superstorm-the-1859-carrington-event -=Bryan=- From: time-nuts on behalf of David I. Emery Sent: August 12, 2018 6:36 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 07:48:52PM -0400, Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > Well???. there???s also the solar flare that vaporizes the planet earth :) > > A flare big enough to take out all the sat systems would disrupt a lot more > than just navigation. > It also probably is big enough to take out HF radio gear as well. It takes a > *lot* of energy to > permanently take out a sat system. Hour or two disruptions ??? sure ??? total > destruction, that???s > getting into crazy levels. Not so clear, big events can cause satellites to fail due to large charges and voltages on induced on surfaces of the bird that cause arcs - and also bombardment by energetic particles that can cause logic states in chips to get tweaked (SEDs) and crash the control electronics and CPUS and/or confuse vital sensors.. causing the bird to enter modes that may not be safe for it or recoverable - more than a few satellites have died of these kinds of things. Whether ENOUGH GPS/Galileo/Glonnass/Baideu birds would fail to eliminate them as a functioning constellation is probably somewhat unlikely... however. But It is much more likely that orbits would be less accurately known for a while due to atmospheric heating and increased drag and maybe also due to disturbances in satellite orientation and power and thermal status during the event that could both change drag and perhaps even induce slight impulses if gas jets or similar means were required to recover the bird and make it stable again. And the power and thermal perturbations in emergency mode shutdown configurations might well impact the on board clock performance and accuracy (even maybe just from the extra radiation as the magnetopause moved inside the satellite orbits in an extreme event). So in addition to the disturbed propagation through the ionosphere causing degraded performance there well could be significant errors in ephemerides (basic bird position) that would do so too for a while. And recovering a whole constellation of confused, sick and dangerously misconfigured satellites during a massive world wide event might be less easy than one might first imagine as the resources required on the ground would probably be damaged and disabled by other effects (massive nation wide power grid collapses and the like) and would certainly be stretched thin by all the urgent problems to get under control before individual satellites started to become nearly or completely unrecoverable. And there are certainly positive feedback vicious spiral effects here - such as lack of time and position accuracy caused secondary problems such as sync failures in fiber rings and the like that might take out parts of the Internet and cell systems) and make it much harder to recover the satellites due to lack of effective communications on the ground. I'd expect that decently designed HF and LF radio time and positioning systems would be VERY much more resistant to lethal damage by flare EMPs... hard to see how massive earth magnetic events could kill LF or HF receivers that were even modestly hardened against EMP simply because otherwise local lightning would be frying them regularly. And the HF and LF transmitters involved should be pretty self protecting too... maybe their power supply would be the weak point as the grid collapsed but this is a problem that can be cheaply handled with well known and proved diesel generator technology. -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either." ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii
On 8/12/2018 6:55 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote: I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on 2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz. W1AW is far more useful to check ham antennas, since it broadcasts on ham bands, so that isn't a useful argument. OTOH, the argument that it is OK to obsolete millions of "atomic" clocks because of NTP is also weak. The present WWVB solution is "just right" for the problem; the vast majority of users don't need more accuracy. Rick N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii
Well, maybe NIST wants to cut, and maybe not. What happens is, in zero based budgeting, the chain of command will pass down the line requests for budgets for the coming year with cuts of varying depth. After a couple of cuts everywhere, travel for example, an agency will seek programs that can be cut and managers will have to make several suggested budgets. I have done this, and have had to cut as much as 30 percent out of mine. Since budget cuts are very hard to use as reason for layoffs, operating funds have to take up the slack. So this may not come to anything. The land, if not leased, is probably managed by the GSA, an arm of Congress rather than the executive branch. I'll bet most of you can figure out why this is so. NIST will not see a dime from any sale. Anyway, that's an end to my contributions to this thread. Selah. Don On 2018-08-12 19:46, paul swed wrote: What bits I have read do seem to indicate its NIST that wants to cut the service. Since technology has moved beyond the services value which is kind of true. Just think what they can get for the land the sites on. Microsemi's comments were interesting in that in some manner there might be a NTP based solution that could be far more accurate then what we typically see today for NTP. But it also seemed to hint it would be a fee service. I think thats very very early. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:37 PM, Wes wrote: Comment in the link about visiting WWV reminds me of my experience. Many years ago my late wife and I were roving around Colorado and I telephoned WWV and asked if I could get a tour. I mentioned that I was a ham, an EE, blah blah. This had worked before at other installations (not NAA however) including the Apollo tracking station at Guaymas Mexico a day after a splashdown. The fellow I talked to was somewhat taken aback and said that they didn't give tours. I expressed some dismay and was about to hang up when he said, "Actually, we have some contractors doing some work here and the gate is unlocked. If you were to come in you could look at the antennas, but please stay in your car." So we did. Wes On 8/12/2018 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: Group, This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with comments at https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes- request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. -- Dr. Don Latham PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834 VOX: 406-626-4304 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii
I hope this does not happen. I get questions from new Hams that ask, 'How can I check my antenna easily?' - the quick reply is to check for WWV on 2.5, 5,0, 10.0, 15.0 and 20.0 MHz. Also, from my days in the Merchant Marine until now, I for one will truly miss this service if it is discontinued, and this isn't the first time it has some up. I also tell new Hams - if you can understand the message from WWV that gives out the number in Colorado - your antenna should be in pretty good shape for HF (and or VHF/UHF at least to verify it can receive ok). At least it's an easy rule of thumb and an easy check for most. 73's, John AJ6BC On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 6:46 PM, paul swed wrote: > What bits I have read do seem to indicate its NIST that wants to cut the > service. Since technology has moved beyond the services value which is kind > of true. Just think what they can get for the land the sites on. > Microsemi's comments were interesting in that in some manner there might be > a NTP based solution that could be far more accurate then what we typically > see today for NTP. But it also seemed to hint it would be a fee service. I > think thats very very early. > > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > > On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:37 PM, Wes wrote: > > > Comment in the link about visiting WWV reminds me of my experience. Many > > years ago my late wife and I were roving around Colorado and I telephoned > > WWV and asked if I could get a tour. I mentioned that I was a ham, an EE, > > blah blah. This had worked before at other installations (not NAA > however) > > including the Apollo tracking station at Guaymas Mexico a day after a > > splashdown. > > > > The fellow I talked to was somewhat taken aback and said that they didn't > > give tours. I expressed some dismay and was about to hang up when he > said, > > "Actually, we have some contractors doing some work here and the gate is > > unlocked. If you were to come in you could look at the antennas, but > > please stay in your car." So we did. > > > > Wes > > > > > > > > On 8/12/2018 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: > > > >> > >> Group, > >> > >> This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with > >> comments at > >> > >> https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes- > >> request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/ > >> > > > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii
What bits I have read do seem to indicate its NIST that wants to cut the service. Since technology has moved beyond the services value which is kind of true. Just think what they can get for the land the sites on. Microsemi's comments were interesting in that in some manner there might be a NTP based solution that could be far more accurate then what we typically see today for NTP. But it also seemed to hint it would be a fee service. I think thats very very early. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:37 PM, Wes wrote: > Comment in the link about visiting WWV reminds me of my experience. Many > years ago my late wife and I were roving around Colorado and I telephoned > WWV and asked if I could get a tour. I mentioned that I was a ham, an EE, > blah blah. This had worked before at other installations (not NAA however) > including the Apollo tracking station at Guaymas Mexico a day after a > splashdown. > > The fellow I talked to was somewhat taken aback and said that they didn't > give tours. I expressed some dismay and was about to hang up when he said, > "Actually, we have some contractors doing some work here and the gate is > unlocked. If you were to come in you could look at the antennas, but > please stay in your car." So we did. > > Wes > > > > On 8/12/2018 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: > >> >> Group, >> >> This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with >> comments at >> >> https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes- >> request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/ >> > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock
On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 07:48:52PM -0400, Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > Well???. there???s also the solar flare that vaporizes the planet earth :) > > A flare big enough to take out all the sat systems would disrupt a lot more > than just navigation. > It also probably is big enough to take out HF radio gear as well. It takes a > *lot* of energy to > permanently take out a sat system. Hour or two disruptions ??? sure ??? total > destruction, that???s > getting into crazy levels. Not so clear, big events can cause satellites to fail due to large charges and voltages on induced on surfaces of the bird that cause arcs - and also bombardment by energetic particles that can cause logic states in chips to get tweaked (SEDs) and crash the control electronics and CPUS and/or confuse vital sensors.. causing the bird to enter modes that may not be safe for it or recoverable - more than a few satellites have died of these kinds of things. Whether ENOUGH GPS/Galileo/Glonnass/Baideu birds would fail to eliminate them as a functioning constellation is probably somewhat unlikely... however. But It is much more likely that orbits would be less accurately known for a while due to atmospheric heating and increased drag and maybe also due to disturbances in satellite orientation and power and thermal status during the event that could both change drag and perhaps even induce slight impulses if gas jets or similar means were required to recover the bird and make it stable again. And the power and thermal perturbations in emergency mode shutdown configurations might well impact the on board clock performance and accuracy (even maybe just from the extra radiation as the magnetopause moved inside the satellite orbits in an extreme event). So in addition to the disturbed propagation through the ionosphere causing degraded performance there well could be significant errors in ephemerides (basic bird position) that would do so too for a while. And recovering a whole constellation of confused, sick and dangerously misconfigured satellites during a massive world wide event might be less easy than one might first imagine as the resources required on the ground would probably be damaged and disabled by other effects (massive nation wide power grid collapses and the like) and would certainly be stretched thin by all the urgent problems to get under control before individual satellites started to become nearly or completely unrecoverable. And there are certainly positive feedback vicious spiral effects here - such as lack of time and position accuracy caused secondary problems such as sync failures in fiber rings and the like that might take out parts of the Internet and cell systems) and make it much harder to recover the satellites due to lack of effective communications on the ground. I'd expect that decently designed HF and LF radio time and positioning systems would be VERY much more resistant to lethal damage by flare EMPs... hard to see how massive earth magnetic events could kill LF or HF receivers that were even modestly hardened against EMP simply because otherwise local lightning would be frying them regularly. And the HF and LF transmitters involved should be pretty self protecting too... maybe their power supply would be the weak point as the grid collapsed but this is a problem that can be cheaply handled with well known and proved diesel generator technology. -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either." ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii
Comment in the link about visiting WWV reminds me of my experience. Many years ago my late wife and I were roving around Colorado and I telephoned WWV and asked if I could get a tour. I mentioned that I was a ham, an EE, blah blah. This had worked before at other installations (not NAA however) including the Apollo tracking station at Guaymas Mexico a day after a splashdown. The fellow I talked to was somewhat taken aback and said that they didn't give tours. I expressed some dismay and was about to hang up when he said, "Actually, we have some contractors doing some work here and the gate is unlocked. If you were to come in you could look at the antennas, but please stay in your car." So we did. Wes On 8/12/2018 4:05 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: Group, This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with comments at https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock
Hi Well…. there’s also the solar flare that vaporizes the planet earth :) A flare big enough to take out all the sat systems would disrupt a lot more than just navigation. It also probably is big enough to take out HF radio gear as well. It takes a *lot* of energy to permanently take out a sat system. Hour or two disruptions … sure … total destruction, that’s getting into crazy levels. Bob > On Aug 12, 2018, at 7:29 PM, Dana Whitlow wrote: > > How exactly does one get submillisecond time of day precision with a > sextant? > (even if sticks and pebbles are thrown into the mix) > I'd say more like ~1 sec precision on a really fine day, it the sextant is > wielded by > a skilled and practiced operator who has apriori knowledge of his location. > > And what about standard frequency dissemination? > > I'm also upset about the notion of time distribution and transfer by > internet. Now > there's a fine example of a system that could be brought down by a single > competent > hacker! > > And all it takes is one really good solar flare to bring down GPS (and > Glonass and > the others) semipermanently, if the reports I read are true. > > I argue that instead of shutting down distribution avenues, NIST should be > making > additional ones available. > > A lot has been said lately about how rapidly our technology is exploding. > But think > about how much of that is critically dependent on precision time transfer > over the > planet, and how much longer it would take mankind to recover from (insert > your favorite > disaster here) without good time and frequency transfer still up and > working. > > Dana > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 2:06 PM, djl wrote: > >> all you need for a once a day noon fix is a level surface, a stick, and >> some pebbles. >> Don >> >> >> On 2018-08-12 08:29, Scott McGrath wrote: >> >>> And with dependence on GPS we have created a serious vulnerability as >>> too many critical pieces of infrastructure are dependent on a SINGLE >>> precision timing and positioning system. >>> >>> I can use a sextant and have a copy of Bowditch.But they only work >>> on clear days and nights. >>> >>> if GPS goes down for any reason. Whats the backup solution? >>> >>> >>> On Aug 10, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Lester Veenstra wrote: >>> >>> Used to work with Wayne on two time transfer via satellite >>> Great guy >>> >>> >>> Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y >>> les...@veenstras.com >>> >>> Physical and US Postal Addresses >>> 5 Shrine Club Drive (Physical) >>> HC84 452 Stable Ln (RFD USPS Mail) >>> Keyser WV 26726 >>> GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) >>> GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) >>> >>> >>> Telephones: >>> Home: +1-304-289-6057 >>> US cell+1-304-790-9192 >>> Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 >>> >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of >>> Tom >>> Van Baak >>> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 10:19 AM >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock >>> >>> Tim, >>> >>> Thanks for posting that photo. That space age 1976 GOES clock caught our >>> eyes when the paper came out in 2005 (see also pages 11, 12, 13): >>> >>> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2013.pdf >>> >>> There was quite a bit of traffic on time-nuts around 2005 when the GOES >>> satellite time service was turned off (and back on, and off, and on, and >>> finally off for good). That left many of us with piles of 468 MHz GOES >>> receivers, antennae, clocks and led to efforts to re-create the RF signals >>> in-home so that GOES clocks would still work. There was even a commercial >>> G2G (GPS to GOES) translator. >>> >>> Anyway, I asked around about that one-off bicentennial clock in the photo >>> and neither the authors, NIST, or Smithsonian knows where it ended up. >>> There's tons of information on the GOES satellite system and GOES clocks >>> in >>> the NIST T&F archives: >>> >>> https://tf.nist.gov/general/publications.htm >>> >>> Best to search title for GOES, or search author for Hanson. It's a >>> fascinating glimpse into the recent past. Yes, it's sad that GOES (and >>> Omega, and Loran-C) aren't operational anymore, but GPS does such a better >>> job. Plus we now have cable, WiFi, cell phones, the internet, Iridium, >>> etc. >>> >>> If you wanted to build your own Bicentennial GOES Clock, the design was >>> published, including source code -- for its i4004 (!!) CPU. If you have >>> even >>> one minute to spare, see attached image and click on these two PDF's: >>> >>> "Satellite Controlled Digital Clock System (patent)" >>> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1791.pdf >>> >>> "A Satellite-Controlled Digital Clock (NBS TN-681)" >>> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/452.pdf >>> >>> /tvb >>> >>> >>> - Original Message - >>> From: "Tim Shoppa" >>> To: "Discussion of precise tim
Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock
How exactly does one get submillisecond time of day precision with a sextant? (even if sticks and pebbles are thrown into the mix) I'd say more like ~1 sec precision on a really fine day, it the sextant is wielded by a skilled and practiced operator who has apriori knowledge of his location. And what about standard frequency dissemination? I'm also upset about the notion of time distribution and transfer by internet. Now there's a fine example of a system that could be brought down by a single competent hacker! And all it takes is one really good solar flare to bring down GPS (and Glonass and the others) semipermanently, if the reports I read are true. I argue that instead of shutting down distribution avenues, NIST should be making additional ones available. A lot has been said lately about how rapidly our technology is exploding. But think about how much of that is critically dependent on precision time transfer over the planet, and how much longer it would take mankind to recover from (insert your favorite disaster here) without good time and frequency transfer still up and working. Dana On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 2:06 PM, djl wrote: > all you need for a once a day noon fix is a level surface, a stick, and > some pebbles. > Don > > > On 2018-08-12 08:29, Scott McGrath wrote: > >> And with dependence on GPS we have created a serious vulnerability as >> too many critical pieces of infrastructure are dependent on a SINGLE >> precision timing and positioning system. >> >> I can use a sextant and have a copy of Bowditch.But they only work >> on clear days and nights. >> >> if GPS goes down for any reason. Whats the backup solution? >> >> >> On Aug 10, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Lester Veenstra wrote: >> >> Used to work with Wayne on two time transfer via satellite >> Great guy >> >> >> Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y >> les...@veenstras.com >> >> Physical and US Postal Addresses >> 5 Shrine Club Drive (Physical) >> HC84 452 Stable Ln (RFD USPS Mail) >> Keyser WV 26726 >> GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) >> GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) >> >> >> Telephones: >> Home: +1-304-289-6057 >> US cell+1-304-790-9192 >> Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of >> Tom >> Van Baak >> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 10:19 AM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock >> >> Tim, >> >> Thanks for posting that photo. That space age 1976 GOES clock caught our >> eyes when the paper came out in 2005 (see also pages 11, 12, 13): >> >> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2013.pdf >> >> There was quite a bit of traffic on time-nuts around 2005 when the GOES >> satellite time service was turned off (and back on, and off, and on, and >> finally off for good). That left many of us with piles of 468 MHz GOES >> receivers, antennae, clocks and led to efforts to re-create the RF signals >> in-home so that GOES clocks would still work. There was even a commercial >> G2G (GPS to GOES) translator. >> >> Anyway, I asked around about that one-off bicentennial clock in the photo >> and neither the authors, NIST, or Smithsonian knows where it ended up. >> There's tons of information on the GOES satellite system and GOES clocks >> in >> the NIST T&F archives: >> >> https://tf.nist.gov/general/publications.htm >> >> Best to search title for GOES, or search author for Hanson. It's a >> fascinating glimpse into the recent past. Yes, it's sad that GOES (and >> Omega, and Loran-C) aren't operational anymore, but GPS does such a better >> job. Plus we now have cable, WiFi, cell phones, the internet, Iridium, >> etc. >> >> If you wanted to build your own Bicentennial GOES Clock, the design was >> published, including source code -- for its i4004 (!!) CPU. If you have >> even >> one minute to spare, see attached image and click on these two PDF's: >> >> "Satellite Controlled Digital Clock System (patent)" >> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1791.pdf >> >> "A Satellite-Controlled Digital Clock (NBS TN-681)" >> https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/452.pdf >> >> /tvb >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Tim Shoppa" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 7:29 PM >> Subject: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock >> >> >> See the groovy picture at >>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4847573/figure/ >>> f9-j110-2lom/ >>> >>> If anyone knows the whereabouts or history of the bicentennial GOES time >>> clock display, please let me know! >>> >>> Tim N3QE >>> >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> ___
[time-nuts] Loss of NIST transmitters at Colorado and Hawaii
Group, This subject needs some additional detail. I found an article with comments at https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-fy2019-budget-includes-request-to-shutdown-wwv-and-wwvh/ It is not clear whether WWVB will still be available for all of our cheap "atomic" clocks. One comment says that White House budgets are usually ignored in congress. Another says that it is NIST that cut WWV and WWVH, not the White House. Can anyone clarify the situation? Bill Hawkins Sent from my retirement home in MN Change causes confusion until new methods are learned, and a deep sense of loss when something familiar goes away. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST
Well if the old LF and HF signals go away I am on for yet another wwvb project and wwv. What the heck. Creating a AM wwvb is really pretty easy and in fact I have done that. Can't remember what code that was. Pretty sure it was basic on SXb2. But the good news is the old BPSK code isn't needed so it really becomes easy. The BPSK coder was seriously complicated. (That was the cheatin dePSKr) So it would be GPS to WWVB code. Have to think about the DST thing. Thats always a bit messy. Lastly while I am at it there would be a 5 and 10 MHz wwv simulator at least ticks and minute tone. Looked at voice and thats a bit of a mess. They seem to just say numbers. Not sure there are modules that say time from my bit of research. Of course have to be careful with transmission levels Looks like its time yo look up fcc part 97. Things to ponder. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Wes wrote: > Yep, just like "government shutdowns" where all non-essential people stay > home. (I always wondered why, it they are non-essential they are on the > payroll in the first place, but what do I know, I'm just a taxpayer.) But > what gets shut down first are things like National Parks, which have > immediate effect on lots of people. > > What are the effects on the budget of running WWV/WWVB? The electric bill > I would guess. When John Q. Public's "atomic clock" stops working, they'll > find a way to pay the bill. > > Wes > > On 8/12/2018 11:58 AM, djl wrote: > >> Just a word: When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most >> valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc. This >> is a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . . >> Don >> > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST
Yep, just like "government shutdowns" where all non-essential people stay home. (I always wondered why, it they are non-essential they are on the payroll in the first place, but what do I know, I'm just a taxpayer.) But what gets shut down first are things like National Parks, which have immediate effect on lots of people. What are the effects on the budget of running WWV/WWVB? The electric bill I would guess. When John Q. Public's "atomic clock" stops working, they'll find a way to pay the bill. Wes On 8/12/2018 11:58 AM, djl wrote: Just a word: When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc. This is a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . . Don ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock
all you need for a once a day noon fix is a level surface, a stick, and some pebbles. Don On 2018-08-12 08:29, Scott McGrath wrote: And with dependence on GPS we have created a serious vulnerability as too many critical pieces of infrastructure are dependent on a SINGLE precision timing and positioning system. I can use a sextant and have a copy of Bowditch.But they only work on clear days and nights. if GPS goes down for any reason. Whats the backup solution? On Aug 10, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Lester Veenstra wrote: Used to work with Wayne on two time transfer via satellite Great guy Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y les...@veenstras.com Physical and US Postal Addresses 5 Shrine Club Drive (Physical) HC84 452 Stable Ln (RFD USPS Mail) Keyser WV 26726 GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) Telephones: Home: +1-304-289-6057 US cell+1-304-790-9192 Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 10:19 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock Tim, Thanks for posting that photo. That space age 1976 GOES clock caught our eyes when the paper came out in 2005 (see also pages 11, 12, 13): https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2013.pdf There was quite a bit of traffic on time-nuts around 2005 when the GOES satellite time service was turned off (and back on, and off, and on, and finally off for good). That left many of us with piles of 468 MHz GOES receivers, antennae, clocks and led to efforts to re-create the RF signals in-home so that GOES clocks would still work. There was even a commercial G2G (GPS to GOES) translator. Anyway, I asked around about that one-off bicentennial clock in the photo and neither the authors, NIST, or Smithsonian knows where it ended up. There's tons of information on the GOES satellite system and GOES clocks in the NIST T&F archives: https://tf.nist.gov/general/publications.htm Best to search title for GOES, or search author for Hanson. It's a fascinating glimpse into the recent past. Yes, it's sad that GOES (and Omega, and Loran-C) aren't operational anymore, but GPS does such a better job. Plus we now have cable, WiFi, cell phones, the internet, Iridium, etc. If you wanted to build your own Bicentennial GOES Clock, the design was published, including source code -- for its i4004 (!!) CPU. If you have even one minute to spare, see attached image and click on these two PDF's: "Satellite Controlled Digital Clock System (patent)" https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1791.pdf "A Satellite-Controlled Digital Clock (NBS TN-681)" https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/452.pdf /tvb - Original Message - From: "Tim Shoppa" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 7:29 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock See the groovy picture at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4847573/figure/f9-j110-2lom/ If anyone knows the whereabouts or history of the bicentennial GOES time clock display, please let me know! Tim N3QE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. -- Dr. Don Latham PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834 VOX: 406-626-4304 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST
Just a word: When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc. This is a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . . Don On 2018-08-12 12:20, paul swed wrote: Like all of you I have a few wwvb clocks that work pretty well here in Boston. Certainly have written enough wwvb stuff and created various wwvb projects that I will have to get back into it again. I did look at the cron-verter. Have to say it has a lot of nice features. Unfortunately it hasn't been available for a year or so. (Getting lazy) The good news is the AM modulation of wwb is very easy to create. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:48 PM, Dana Whitlow wrote: I fear the worst. The line in the website simply stated something like "shutting down the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include the whole enchilada. For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go to battery- backed AC power. But not so good for wristwatches, where the expectation is to run at uW power levels. I for one would be very irritated at having to take my watch off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night. So if this shutdown comes to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or at least plans for building one. Dana On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the USA > down technically. Denying global warming, shutting off time signals, and > so on, is great stuff. > On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq < kb...@n1k.org> > wrote: > > Hi > > One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic > clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do. > It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage > wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away …. > > Bob > > > On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux wrote: > > > > On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote: > >> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described > generally in groups here: > >> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget- > request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and > >> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement > dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado > and Hawaii" > > > > I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. -- Dr. Don Latham PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834 VOX: 406-626-4304 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST
Like all of you I have a few wwvb clocks that work pretty well here in Boston. Certainly have written enough wwvb stuff and created various wwvb projects that I will have to get back into it again. I did look at the cron-verter. Have to say it has a lot of nice features. Unfortunately it hasn't been available for a year or so. (Getting lazy) The good news is the AM modulation of wwb is very easy to create. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:48 PM, Dana Whitlow wrote: > I fear the worst. The line in the website simply stated something like > "shutting down > the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include the > whole > enchilada. > > For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go to > battery- > backed AC power. But not so good for wristwatches, where the expectation > is to > run at uW power levels. I for one would be very irritated at having to > take my watch > off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night. So if this > shutdown comes > to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or at > least > plans for building one. > > Dana > > > On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts < > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the USA > > down technically. Denying global warming, shutting off time signals, and > > so on, is great stuff. > > On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq < > kb...@n1k.org> > > wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic > > clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do. > > It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage > > wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away …. > > > > Bob > > > > > On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux wrote: > > > > > > On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote: > > >> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described > > generally in groups here: > > >> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget- > > request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and > > >> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement > > dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado > > and Hawaii" > > > > > > I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH > > > > > > ___ > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/ > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock
Hi If GPS goes down, you then have Glonass. If Glonass goes down, you have Galileo. If all of those go down and you are in the right region, the Chinese and Japanese both have systems you could use. In terms of *system* failure, there’s a lot of redundancy out there ….. Yes, you *would* have to own gear that works with all those systems. You might also go with multi-band (quad band maybe) gear to eliminate various other issues. Widely deployed electronic navigation isn’t all that old. People got along for a really long time without it ….. That includes a whole bunch of folks who had no clue how a sextant works. Bob > On Aug 12, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Scott McGrath wrote: > > And with dependence on GPS we have created a serious vulnerability as too > many critical pieces of infrastructure are dependent on a SINGLE precision > timing and positioning system. > > I can use a sextant and have a copy of Bowditch.But they only work on > clear days and nights. > > if GPS goes down for any reason. Whats the backup solution? > > > On Aug 10, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Lester Veenstra wrote: > > Used to work with Wayne on two time transfer via satellite > Great guy > > > Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y > les...@veenstras.com > > Physical and US Postal Addresses > 5 Shrine Club Drive (Physical) > HC84 452 Stable Ln (RFD USPS Mail) > Keyser WV 26726 > GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) > GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) > > > Telephones: > Home: +1-304-289-6057 > US cell+1-304-790-9192 > Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 > > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom > Van Baak > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 10:19 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock > > Tim, > > Thanks for posting that photo. That space age 1976 GOES clock caught our > eyes when the paper came out in 2005 (see also pages 11, 12, 13): > > https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2013.pdf > > There was quite a bit of traffic on time-nuts around 2005 when the GOES > satellite time service was turned off (and back on, and off, and on, and > finally off for good). That left many of us with piles of 468 MHz GOES > receivers, antennae, clocks and led to efforts to re-create the RF signals > in-home so that GOES clocks would still work. There was even a commercial > G2G (GPS to GOES) translator. > > Anyway, I asked around about that one-off bicentennial clock in the photo > and neither the authors, NIST, or Smithsonian knows where it ended up. > There's tons of information on the GOES satellite system and GOES clocks in > the NIST T&F archives: > > https://tf.nist.gov/general/publications.htm > > Best to search title for GOES, or search author for Hanson. It's a > fascinating glimpse into the recent past. Yes, it's sad that GOES (and > Omega, and Loran-C) aren't operational anymore, but GPS does such a better > job. Plus we now have cable, WiFi, cell phones, the internet, Iridium, etc. > > If you wanted to build your own Bicentennial GOES Clock, the design was > published, including source code -- for its i4004 (!!) CPU. If you have even > one minute to spare, see attached image and click on these two PDF's: > > "Satellite Controlled Digital Clock System (patent)" > https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1791.pdf > > "A Satellite-Controlled Digital Clock (NBS TN-681)" > https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/452.pdf > > /tvb > > > - Original Message - > From: "Tim Shoppa" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 7:29 PM > Subject: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock > > >> See the groovy picture at >> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4847573/figure/f9-j110-2lom/ >> >> If anyone knows the whereabouts or history of the bicentennial GOES time >> clock display, please let me know! >> >> Tim N3QE > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock
And with dependence on GPS we have created a serious vulnerability as too many critical pieces of infrastructure are dependent on a SINGLE precision timing and positioning system. I can use a sextant and have a copy of Bowditch.But they only work on clear days and nights. if GPS goes down for any reason. Whats the backup solution? On Aug 10, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Lester Veenstra wrote: Used to work with Wayne on two time transfer via satellite Great guy Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y les...@veenstras.com Physical and US Postal Addresses 5 Shrine Club Drive (Physical) HC84 452 Stable Ln (RFD USPS Mail) Keyser WV 26726 GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) Telephones: Home: +1-304-289-6057 US cell+1-304-790-9192 Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 10:19 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock Tim, Thanks for posting that photo. That space age 1976 GOES clock caught our eyes when the paper came out in 2005 (see also pages 11, 12, 13): https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2013.pdf There was quite a bit of traffic on time-nuts around 2005 when the GOES satellite time service was turned off (and back on, and off, and on, and finally off for good). That left many of us with piles of 468 MHz GOES receivers, antennae, clocks and led to efforts to re-create the RF signals in-home so that GOES clocks would still work. There was even a commercial G2G (GPS to GOES) translator. Anyway, I asked around about that one-off bicentennial clock in the photo and neither the authors, NIST, or Smithsonian knows where it ended up. There's tons of information on the GOES satellite system and GOES clocks in the NIST T&F archives: https://tf.nist.gov/general/publications.htm Best to search title for GOES, or search author for Hanson. It's a fascinating glimpse into the recent past. Yes, it's sad that GOES (and Omega, and Loran-C) aren't operational anymore, but GPS does such a better job. Plus we now have cable, WiFi, cell phones, the internet, Iridium, etc. If you wanted to build your own Bicentennial GOES Clock, the design was published, including source code -- for its i4004 (!!) CPU. If you have even one minute to spare, see attached image and click on these two PDF's: "Satellite Controlled Digital Clock System (patent)" https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1791.pdf "A Satellite-Controlled Digital Clock (NBS TN-681)" https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/452.pdf /tvb - Original Message - From: "Tim Shoppa" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 7:29 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Bicentennial GOES satellite clock > See the groovy picture at > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4847573/figure/f9-j110-2lom/ > > If anyone knows the whereabouts or history of the bicentennial GOES time > clock display, please let me know! > > Tim N3QE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
