Re: [time-nuts] Part 2: Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time.

[Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems)]

Hi Tom,
The picture I attached was from the 5061B sales brochure, and probably taken in 
1986.
I recognize the guy in the photo, I think he was a marketing engineer, but I 
can't remember his name.
Hugh

From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak
Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2019 11:16 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Part 2: Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep 
good time.

Hugh,

What year is your photo from? Here's a similar, but older photo of hp's house 
standard:

http://leapsecond.com/history/Benchmark.htm

This was from roughly 1966 (note the dual hp 5060A). The HPJ issue containing 
that article is here:

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1966-08.pdf

The house standard is featured on page 20, but there's also a glimpse of it on 
the top of page 15.

/tvb

- Original Message -
From: "Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems)" 
mailto:hugh.r...@hp.com>>
To: mailto:time-nuts@lists.febo.com>>
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2019 4:07 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Part 2: Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good 
time.


HP's Santa Clara Division (SCD), in addition to building the Cesium Beam 
Frequency Standard Atomic Clocks, was an official time-keeper for the U.S. 
Naval Observatory, maintaining the west coast reference for Coordinated 
Universal Time. This was done in our standards lab where we kept a rack of 
several HP Cesium standards. Hopefully the attached picture of the lab comes 
through for some of you.

...


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Re: [time-nuts] Part 2: Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time.

[Tom Van Baak]

> What are the units on the lower right with pairs of analog meters?

Hal,

Those are all 24 VDC backup power supplies. Model hp 5085A. The round meters 
are for volts and amps.

Take a look through http://hpmemoryproject.org/an/pdf/an_52.pdf which is an 
nice old (1965) copy the classic hp AN52 app note on Frequency and Time 
standards. The 115 clock, 5060 cesium and 5085 battery are on the front cover.

Highly recommended -- scroll down to PDF page 85. The 6-page Appendix VI is a 
wonderful summary of all the vintage equipment involved with precise time in 
the 60's. From the 5060A cesium standard to the 5085A power supply to the 115BR 
divider / clocks. It was my eBay shopping list many years ago.

Steve Allen -- you'll enjoy pages 83-84 for the historical notes on time 
scales, including NBS-SA, "stepped atomic time".

Note there were several versions of the DC backup power supply. The K02-5060A 
version is seen here:

http://hpmemoryproject.org/news/flying_clock/celebration_01.htm
http://hpmemoryproject.org/pict/news/flying_clock/flying_clock_rack_1200px.jpg  
(high-res)

More examples of "flying clocks", showing the pairing of cesium clock(s) with 
battery backup along with dividers / clocks / counters:

http://www.lightandmatter.com/article/hafele_keating.html

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] Part 2: Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time.

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 1/4/2019 4:07 PM, Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems) wrote:


In about 1987, Jim Horner, the general manager of SCD, said:  "If we keep the 
official time for the US Naval Observatory, we should have a fancy display in the lobby 
showing exact time."   This would allow us to showcase our technology to customers 
and dignitaries that would visit the site. But there was a catch:  IT MUST ALWAYS 
HAVE THE CORRECT TIME.(Oh, and PFS engineering needed to find the money to pay for 
it.   But it didn't wind up being all the expensive.)


This is in contrast to the wall clocks scattered around the Santa Clara 
campus which NEVER had the correct time and didn't even agree with

each other.  As of June of 2018, the clocks in those buildings
still did not work right.  They are typically several MINUTES in error.
They are like the remotely controlled clocks in my schools in
the 1960's, except the school clocks actually worked, at least
most of the time.  I think they still have the original ones
from 1969.  Analog clocks with hands :-).

The old standards lab is now the "Werner Von Braun" conference room.

Rick

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Re: [time-nuts] Part 2: Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time.

[Jeremy Nichols]

I think those are backup power supplies.

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 8:48 PM Hal Murray  wrote:

>
> hugh.r...@hp.com said:
> > ersal Time.   This was done in our standards lab where we kept a rack of
> > several HP Cesium standards.   Hopefully the attached picture of the lab
> > comes through for some of you.
>
> What are the units on the lower right with pairs of analog meters?
>
> Thanks for all the wonderful stories.
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Noisy clocks [Was: Atomic Clocks]

[Jeremy Nichols]

Bill,

I've done much the same thing, putting the 113AR in a small rack cabinet
stuffed full of Fiberglas® house insulation. I also lined the 113AR cabinet
with rubber insulation designed for high-end auto sound system. The rubber
absorbs high frequency vibrations and the Fiberglas® absorbs lower
frequencies. I'm now working on installing the rack cabinet into an old
kitchen cabinet lined with styrofoam and Fiberglas®. That should knock the
noise down even further. Multiple plexiglas windows will allow the clock
face to be seen; I'll add some LEDs inside the 113AR cabinet to illuminate
the clock.

Jeremy


On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 7:56 PM Bill Hawkins  wrote:

> Well, your first clue should be the heavy box that contains the hardware.
> Don't recall any other HP gear built that way. The box could have been an
> aluminum casting.
>
> I had two of them with about the same noise, many years ago (but not
> new).  I used standard fiberglass wall insulation to line a wooden cabinet
> that also contained the 103 crystal standard. That made the noise bearable
> and kept the 103 temperature stable.  Of course, you had to open the front
> insulated door to see the clock.
>
> Never found out if it was the 1 KC stepper motor or the gearbox making the
> noise.  Should have tried heavy grease on the motor gears, but that would
> make a mess of the chassis.  Too late now.
>
> Bill Hawkins
>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019, at 4:01 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
> > Does anyone know how loud the mechanical analog clock in the HP-113AR
> > Frequency Divider/Clock is supposed to be? Mine is loud to the point of
> > being annoying. I've surrounded it with insulation, which helps, but it's
> > not really quiet. I never saw one of these things when new (1960) so I've
> > no idea whether the noise is simply a function of design and construction
> > or if mine is worn after 50+ years of use. [The noise is mechanical
> > gear-type noise, not 1000 Hz whine from the driving frequency.]
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 2:11 PM paul swed  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:28 PM Mark Sims  wrote:
> > >
> > > > My 5065A has the Patek clock.   Those suckers are LOUD.  You can hear
> > > them
> > > > ticking two counties away...  hence mine is always disabled.  Once
> > > started,
> > > > you have to power cycle the machine to get it to shut up.
> > > > ___
> > > >
> > >
> > ___
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> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Part 2: Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time.

[Hal Murray]

hugh.r...@hp.com said:
> ersal Time.   This was done in our standards lab where we kept a rack of
> several HP Cesium standards.   Hopefully the attached picture of the lab
> comes through for some of you. 

What are the units on the lower right with pairs of analog meters?

Thanks for all the wonderful stories.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Noisy clocks [Was: Atomic Clocks]

[Bill Hawkins]

Well, your first clue should be the heavy box that contains the hardware.  
Don't recall any other HP gear built that way. The box could have been an 
aluminum casting.

I had two of them with about the same noise, many years ago (but not new).  I 
used standard fiberglass wall insulation to line a wooden cabinet that also 
contained the 103 crystal standard. That made the noise bearable and kept the 
103 temperature stable.  Of course, you had to open the front insulated door to 
see the clock.

Never found out if it was the 1 KC stepper motor or the gearbox making the 
noise.  Should have tried heavy grease on the motor gears, but that would make 
a mess of the chassis.  Too late now.

Bill Hawkins

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019, at 4:01 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
> Does anyone know how loud the mechanical analog clock in the HP-113AR
> Frequency Divider/Clock is supposed to be? Mine is loud to the point of
> being annoying. I've surrounded it with insulation, which helps, but it's
> not really quiet. I never saw one of these things when new (1960) so I've
> no idea whether the noise is simply a function of design and construction
> or if mine is worn after 50+ years of use. [The noise is mechanical
> gear-type noise, not 1000 Hz whine from the driving frequency.]
> 
> Jeremy
> 
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 2:11 PM paul swed  wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:28 PM Mark Sims  wrote:
> >
> > > My 5065A has the Patek clock.   Those suckers are LOUD.  You can hear
> > them
> > > ticking two counties away...  hence mine is always disabled.  Once
> > started,
> > > you have to power cycle the machine to get it to shut up.
> > > ___
> > >
> >
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Part 2: Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time.

[Tom Van Baak]

Hugh,

What year is your photo from? Here's a similar, but older photo of hp's house 
standard:

http://leapsecond.com/history/Benchmark.htm

This was from roughly 1966 (note the dual hp 5060A). The HPJ issue containing 
that article is here:

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1966-08.pdf

The house standard is featured on page 20, but there's also a glimpse of it on 
the top of page 15.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems)" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2019 4:07 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Part 2: Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good 
time.


HP's  Santa Clara Division (SCD), in addition to building the Cesium Beam 
Frequency Standard Atomic Clocks, was an official time-keeper for the U.S. 
Naval Observatory, maintaining the west coast reference for Coordinated 
Universal Time.   This was done in our standards lab where we kept a rack of 
several HP Cesium standards.   Hopefully the attached picture of the lab comes 
through for some of you.

...


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Re: [time-nuts] Noisy clocks [Was: Atomic Clocks]

[Jeremy Nichols]

I am fortunate that my 113AR came to me in excellent condition from an eBay
seller and worked immediately. The noise is the only concern.


On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 7:06 PM paul swed  wrote:

> Well don't know that anyone had one new. But they do have them and some
> have shared pix of the cleanup they did. Has my respect.
> Regards
>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 9:51 PM Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
>
> > Thanks, Paul. I have and there was. Unfortunately, there isn't much real
> > information, no data one can use, just vague descriptions. Next time I
> have
> > the clock running I'll make a video, put it on YouTube, post a link here.
> > Perhaps someone else has one and can compare. What would be nice would be
> > to find someone who had a 113AR when it was new and could comment on the
> > noise level out of the box.
> >
> > Jeremy
> > N6WFO
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 5:38 PM paul swed  wrote:
> >
> > > Do a search on time-nuts. I would swear some 3 years ago this was
> > discussed
> > > and they are annoying loud. It wouldn't have mattered im many
> > environments
> > > as there were other peices of equipment that had fans and such. But at
> > home
> > > we tend to hear lots of things.
> > > Good luck.
> > > Regards
> > > Paul
> > > WB8TSL
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 7:02 PM Jeremy Nichols 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Does anyone know how loud the mechanical analog clock in the HP-113AR
> > > > Frequency Divider/Clock is supposed to be? Mine is loud to the point
> of
> > > > being annoying. I've surrounded it with insulation, which helps, but
> > it's
> > > > not really quiet. I never saw one of these things when new (1960) so
> > I've
> > > > no idea whether the noise is simply a function of design and
> > construction
> > > > or if mine is worn after 50+ years of use. [The noise is mechanical
> > > > gear-type noise, not 1000 Hz whine from the driving frequency.]
> > > >
> > > > Jeremy
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 2:11 PM paul swed 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:28 PM Mark Sims 
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > My 5065A has the Patek clock.   Those suckers are LOUD.  You can
> > hear
> > > > > them
> > > > > > ticking two counties away...  hence mine is always disabled.
> Once
> > > > > started,
> > > > > > you have to power cycle the machine to get it to shut up.
> > > > > > ___
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > >
> > > ___
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> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Noisy clocks [Was: Atomic Clocks]

[paul swed]

Well don't know that anyone had one new. But they do have them and some
have shared pix of the cleanup they did. Has my respect.
Regards

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 9:51 PM Jeremy Nichols  wrote:

> Thanks, Paul. I have and there was. Unfortunately, there isn't much real
> information, no data one can use, just vague descriptions. Next time I have
> the clock running I'll make a video, put it on YouTube, post a link here.
> Perhaps someone else has one and can compare. What would be nice would be
> to find someone who had a 113AR when it was new and could comment on the
> noise level out of the box.
>
> Jeremy
> N6WFO
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 5:38 PM paul swed  wrote:
>
> > Do a search on time-nuts. I would swear some 3 years ago this was
> discussed
> > and they are annoying loud. It wouldn't have mattered im many
> environments
> > as there were other peices of equipment that had fans and such. But at
> home
> > we tend to hear lots of things.
> > Good luck.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 7:02 PM Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> >
> > > Does anyone know how loud the mechanical analog clock in the HP-113AR
> > > Frequency Divider/Clock is supposed to be? Mine is loud to the point of
> > > being annoying. I've surrounded it with insulation, which helps, but
> it's
> > > not really quiet. I never saw one of these things when new (1960) so
> I've
> > > no idea whether the noise is simply a function of design and
> construction
> > > or if mine is worn after 50+ years of use. [The noise is mechanical
> > > gear-type noise, not 1000 Hz whine from the driving frequency.]
> > >
> > > Jeremy
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 2:11 PM paul swed  wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:28 PM Mark Sims  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > My 5065A has the Patek clock.   Those suckers are LOUD.  You can
> hear
> > > > them
> > > > > ticking two counties away...  hence mine is always disabled.  Once
> > > > started,
> > > > > you have to power cycle the machine to get it to shut up.
> > > > > ___
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Noisy clocks [Was: Atomic Clocks]

[Jeremy Nichols]

BTW, does anyone have an HP-113AR manual they could copy and sell to me? I
have a PDF of a 113BR manual, which is similar but not identical.

Jeremy

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 6:50 PM Jeremy Nichols  wrote:

> Thanks, Paul. I have and there was. Unfortunately, there isn't much real
> information, no data one can use, just vague descriptions. Next time I have
> the clock running I'll make a video, put it on YouTube, post a link here.
> Perhaps someone else has one and can compare. What would be nice would be
> to find someone who had a 113AR when it was new and could comment on the
> noise level out of the box.
>
> Jeremy
> N6WFO
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 5:38 PM paul swed  wrote:
>
>> Do a search on time-nuts. I would swear some 3 years ago this was
>> discussed
>> and they are annoying loud. It wouldn't have mattered im many environments
>> as there were other peices of equipment that had fans and such. But at
>> home
>> we tend to hear lots of things.
>> Good luck.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 7:02 PM Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
>>
>> > Does anyone know how loud the mechanical analog clock in the HP-113AR
>> > Frequency Divider/Clock is supposed to be? Mine is loud to the point of
>> > being annoying. I've surrounded it with insulation, which helps, but
>> it's
>> > not really quiet. I never saw one of these things when new (1960) so
>> I've
>> > no idea whether the noise is simply a function of design and
>> construction
>> > or if mine is worn after 50+ years of use. [The noise is mechanical
>> > gear-type noise, not 1000 Hz whine from the driving frequency.]
>> >
>> > Jeremy
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 2:11 PM paul swed  wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:28 PM Mark Sims  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > My 5065A has the Patek clock.   Those suckers are LOUD.  You can
>> hear
>> > > them
>> > > > ticking two counties away...  hence mine is always disabled.  Once
>> > > started,
>> > > > you have to power cycle the machine to get it to shut up.
>> > > > ___
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > ___
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> >
>> ___
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>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Noisy clocks [Was: Atomic Clocks]

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thanks, Paul. I have and there was. Unfortunately, there isn't much real
information, no data one can use, just vague descriptions. Next time I have
the clock running I'll make a video, put it on YouTube, post a link here.
Perhaps someone else has one and can compare. What would be nice would be
to find someone who had a 113AR when it was new and could comment on the
noise level out of the box.

Jeremy
N6WFO


On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 5:38 PM paul swed  wrote:

> Do a search on time-nuts. I would swear some 3 years ago this was discussed
> and they are annoying loud. It wouldn't have mattered im many environments
> as there were other peices of equipment that had fans and such. But at home
> we tend to hear lots of things.
> Good luck.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 7:02 PM Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
>
> > Does anyone know how loud the mechanical analog clock in the HP-113AR
> > Frequency Divider/Clock is supposed to be? Mine is loud to the point of
> > being annoying. I've surrounded it with insulation, which helps, but it's
> > not really quiet. I never saw one of these things when new (1960) so I've
> > no idea whether the noise is simply a function of design and construction
> > or if mine is worn after 50+ years of use. [The noise is mechanical
> > gear-type noise, not 1000 Hz whine from the driving frequency.]
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 2:11 PM paul swed  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:28 PM Mark Sims  wrote:
> > >
> > > > My 5065A has the Patek clock.   Those suckers are LOUD.  You can hear
> > > them
> > > > ticking two counties away...  hence mine is always disabled.  Once
> > > started,
> > > > you have to power cycle the machine to get it to shut up.
> > > > ___
> > > >
> > >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] VHF-UHF Frequency Calibrator

[Bill]

For low cost comb generators/frequency markers take a look at 
www.hsmicrowave.com


Regards...Bill - N6GHz

On 1/4/2019 3:29 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts wrote:

  I would imagine the switch selects every 50 or 100 MHz for easier 
identification of harmonic number.
Bob
 On Friday, January 4, 2019, 3:10:36 PM PST, Brooke Clarke 
 wrote:
  
  Hi:


Made by Control Electronics Co. Inc, Model 121, with Navy Calibration Program 
stamp.
This is a comb generator with outputs between 50 and 11,000 MHz that uses a 50 
MHz crystal as the source.
There's a switch for 50 or 100 Mhz the function of which I don't get.
The 12AT7 dual triode tube used as the oscillator has the crystal connected 
between the two cathodes, a configuration I
haven't seen before.
The output circuit also seems strange.
Any thoughts or links to documentation?
https://prc68.com/I/VHF-UHFFrequencyCalibrator.shtml



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Re: [time-nuts] VHF-UHF Frequency Calibrator

[Bob Albert via time-nuts]

 I would imagine the switch selects every 50 or 100 MHz for easier 
identification of harmonic number.
Bob
On Friday, January 4, 2019, 3:10:36 PM PST, Brooke Clarke 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi:

Made by Control Electronics Co. Inc, Model 121, with Navy Calibration Program 
stamp.
This is a comb generator with outputs between 50 and 11,000 MHz that uses a 50 
MHz crystal as the source.
There's a switch for 50 or 100 Mhz the function of which I don't get.
The 12AT7 dual triode tube used as the oscillator has the crystal connected 
between the two cathodes, a configuration I 
haven't seen before.
The output circuit also seems strange.
Any thoughts or links to documentation?
https://prc68.com/I/VHF-UHFFrequencyCalibrator.shtml

-- 
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how 
well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.


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Re: [time-nuts] Noisy clocks [Was: Atomic Clocks]

[paul swed]

Do a search on time-nuts. I would swear some 3 years ago this was discussed
and they are annoying loud. It wouldn't have mattered im many environments
as there were other peices of equipment that had fans and such. But at home
we tend to hear lots of things.
Good luck.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 7:02 PM Jeremy Nichols  wrote:

> Does anyone know how loud the mechanical analog clock in the HP-113AR
> Frequency Divider/Clock is supposed to be? Mine is loud to the point of
> being annoying. I've surrounded it with insulation, which helps, but it's
> not really quiet. I never saw one of these things when new (1960) so I've
> no idea whether the noise is simply a function of design and construction
> or if mine is worn after 50+ years of use. [The noise is mechanical
> gear-type noise, not 1000 Hz whine from the driving frequency.]
>
> Jeremy
>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 2:11 PM paul swed  wrote:
>
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:28 PM Mark Sims  wrote:
> >
> > > My 5065A has the Patek clock.   Those suckers are LOUD.  You can hear
> > them
> > > ticking two counties away...  hence mine is always disabled.  Once
> > started,
> > > you have to power cycle the machine to get it to shut up.
> > > ___
> > >
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] VHF-UHF Frequency Calibrator

[ed breya]

That's an interesting unit. You may want to take a close look at the 
small axial-leaded component going from the tube socket pin 7, to the B+ 
feed-through cap adjacent the "C18" label on the chassis. It appears you 
have it as a choke in the schematic, but I believe it's a diode - 
specifically, a step-recovery one. Our old friend the SRD shows up in a 
lot of places. You can at least check to see if it's a diode, and intact.


That would also explain how a "regular" pinned tube and socket combo can 
provide any meaningful power output to 11 GHz. If it was an acorn or 
lighthouse tube or something like that, I could picture it, but I'd say 
the tube is just pumping the 50 or 100 MHz into the SRD, which is doing 
the multiplying. The RF current path would be through the SRD, the 
feed-through cap into the chassis, then to the output tank, then back to 
the socket pin via the stout cap, which looks like a solder-in type 
feed-through rigged for coupling - almost as good as a leadless cap.


Whatever you do, be careful while poking around in there. With the diode 
hanging off B+, a simple shorting mistake could take it out.


Good luck.

Ed

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[time-nuts] Noisy clocks [Was: Atomic Clocks]

[Jeremy Nichols]

Does anyone know how loud the mechanical analog clock in the HP-113AR
Frequency Divider/Clock is supposed to be? Mine is loud to the point of
being annoying. I've surrounded it with insulation, which helps, but it's
not really quiet. I never saw one of these things when new (1960) so I've
no idea whether the noise is simply a function of design and construction
or if mine is worn after 50+ years of use. [The noise is mechanical
gear-type noise, not 1000 Hz whine from the driving frequency.]

Jeremy

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 2:11 PM paul swed  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:28 PM Mark Sims  wrote:
>
> > My 5065A has the Patek clock.   Those suckers are LOUD.  You can hear
> them
> > ticking two counties away...  hence mine is always disabled.  Once
> started,
> > you have to power cycle the machine to get it to shut up.
> > ___
> >
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time, Part 1

[Steve Allen]

On Fri 2019-01-04T17:05:21-0500 paul swed hath writ:
> Ed agree with your coment that a 30 or greater year old led may be dimming.

Not nearly as much as an entirely different clock illumination:
radium watch dial paint
I remember my mom's wind-up travel clock glowing brightly.  50 years
later there is nothing.  I brought it into the lab just to check that
it is still radioactive (wouldn't want to have lost that radium
somewhere).  It's the zinc sulfide crystals, the radiation damages
them and they stop producing light.

--
Steve Allen  WGS-84 (GPS)
UCO/Lick Observatory--ISB 260  Natural Sciences II, Room 165  Lat  +36.99855
1156 High Street   Voice: +1 831 459 3046 Lng -122.06015
Santa Cruz, CA 95064   http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/   Hgt +250 m

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Re: [time-nuts] FCC OTA pre-emption and restrictions on GPS antennas [was: Short term 10MHz source]

[Bob Bownes]

My t'bolt uses a classic magnetic GPS antenna stuck to the top of an old
5.25" disk drive cover laying on top of the screen in the bubble covered
skylight in my office. Works as well as the timing antenna 30' the tower. :)

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 6:08 PM ew via time-nuts 
wrote:

> Had in North Miami Beach that problems at some friends Condos. Used
> several times the sewer vent pipe every home seems to have. In one critical
> case (unfriendly neighbors) with flat roof cut the pipe off three inches
> from the roof used a coupling to the old cut off top pipe but drilled holes
> in it and inserted the attached. The young man got to enjoy Tbolt with LH.
> Mother liked it.Bert Kehren
> In a message dated 1/4/2019 4:16:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> hol...@hotmail.com writes:
>
> A friend of mine has his GPS antenna disguised as a bird feeder...  ground
> plane is a pizza pan.  Antenna mounted at the top of a clear tube filled
> with bird food... alas, no holes for the birds to get to the
> food.___time-nuts mailing list
> -- time-n...@lists.febo.comTo unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.comand follow
> the instructions there.
> ___
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time, Part 1

[ed breya]

Yes Paul, LEDs wear out over time. By the late 70s and into the 80s, I 
think they were improved and perfected to the point where wearout is 
very slow and barely noticeable visually, and efficiency is much higher 
compared to the oldies. Even opto-couplers are sometimes specified for 
LED wearout, in the form of CTR degradation over time.


I don't know what vintage were used in these clocks, but they are fairly 
old, and likely have lots of running hours in this application. The ones 
in mine still look good, but I did look into replacements way back when 
I started - at least for spares in case any crapped out. I don't recall 
the part numbers or package style/pinout, but do recall they were 
HP-made. Putting more modern ones in would likely improve the display, 
and could reduce the power needed to light them - that is, if the 
pinouts and styles can be found that readily match up with the oldies. I 
think I probably have set aside some of the same types salvaged from 
other HP gear from that era, but if enough went bad or I wanted 
improvement, I'd look at newer stuff.


Ed

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Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver?

[Leo Bodnar]

There are no detectable spurs on this plot within 100kHz from the carrier.  I 
have spent a lot of effort trying to get rid of the spurs while maintaining low 
phase noise.
Here is how it looked before the spur war 
http://www.leobodnar.com/files/miniGPS%20clock%20-%20old%20design.png

Leo

> From: "Chris Caudle" 
> On Wed, January 2, 2019 4:15 am, Leo Bodnar wrote:
>> Here is the phase noise at 10MHz
>> http://www.leobodnar.com/files/mini%20GPS%20clock%20-%20phase%20noise%2010MHz.png
> Does that plot have enough resolution to show any narrow band spurs?  That
> looks really clean for a programmable clock source.

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[time-nuts] VHF-UHF Frequency Calibrator

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi:

Made by Control Electronics Co. Inc, Model 121, with Navy Calibration Program 
stamp.
This is a comb generator with outputs between 50 and 11,000 MHz that uses a 50 
MHz crystal as the source.
There's a switch for 50 or 100 Mhz the function of which I don't get.
The 12AT7 dual triode tube used as the oscillator has the crystal connected between the two cathodes, a configuration I 
haven't seen before.

The output circuit also seems strange.
Any thoughts or links to documentation?
https://prc68.com/I/VHF-UHFFrequencyCalibrator.shtml

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how 
well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.


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Re: [time-nuts] FCC OTA pre-emption and restrictions on GPS antennas [was: Short term 10MHz source]

[ew via time-nuts]

Had in North Miami Beach that problems at some friends Condos. Used several 
times the sewer vent pipe every home seems to have. In one critical case 
(unfriendly neighbors) with flat roof cut the pipe off three inches from the 
roof used a coupling to the old cut off top pipe but drilled holes in it and 
inserted the attached. The young man got to enjoy Tbolt with LH. Mother liked 
it.Bert Kehren
In a message dated 1/4/2019 4:16:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hol...@hotmail.com writes:

A friend of mine has his GPS antenna disguised as a bird feeder...  ground 
plane is a pizza pan.  Antenna mounted at the top of a clear tube filled with 
bird food... alas, no holes for the birds to get to the 
food.___time-nuts mailing list -- 
time-n...@lists.febo.comTo unsubscribe, go to 
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instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time, Part 1

[paul swed]

Bob
Yes indeed click, click, click.
Ed agree with your coment that a 30 or greater year old led may be dimming.
I expect better from HP. Not really.
With respect to the clock it did run off the 24 volt battery and the
display shut down on power failure. There is a button on the front labeled
standard read that you can press to see the time while on battery.
Thank you for the comment.


On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:38 PM Bob Bownes  wrote:

> Add a tiny speaker so you can simulate the loud 'tick' of the analog clock.
> ;)
>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:29 PM ed breya  wrote:
>
> > Paul, what do you mean by the display "looking pretty ratty?" As I
> > recall, the original buck regulator had regulated output voltage around
> > 5V for the LEDs. and the PMOS clock IC needed something around 12V.
> > Whatever the LEDs run from, it should be regulated and well filtered. If
> > the LEDs are dim, it could be the old displays themselves are
> > deteriorated, or the regulation isn't right, or maybe a bad output
> > filter cap on the buck converter. If the brightness is OK, but digit or
> > segment intensities fluctuate with count, then it's probably a
> > regulation issue.
> >
> > I used the shunt regulator to isolate the rest of the system from the
> > large variation (about 3:1) in total LED current with readout values,
> > and it was possible because I had made lower supplies anyway, via DC-DC
> > converters. You wouldn't want to linear-regulate all the way down from
> > the main supply around 24V, to a few V for the LEDs. As I recall, the
> > peak load is in the 200-300 mA range at good brightness. The efficiency
> > of the buck converter makes it practical to run this from the normal
> > supply or battery voltage. I think the original deal was that on power
> > failure it switched to battery mode, the buck converter was shut off to
> > shed the LED load, and the clock IC stayed powered up to keep the right
> > time. The button below the display could force it to show when needed.
> > Mine will work the same way, when/if I ever finish all the details, but
> > will have adjustable brightness, and maybe the option of still
> > indicating time in backup mode, with very dim LED setting.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time, Part 1

[Bob Bownes]

Add a tiny speaker so you can simulate the loud 'tick' of the analog clock.
;)

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:29 PM ed breya  wrote:

> Paul, what do you mean by the display "looking pretty ratty?" As I
> recall, the original buck regulator had regulated output voltage around
> 5V for the LEDs. and the PMOS clock IC needed something around 12V.
> Whatever the LEDs run from, it should be regulated and well filtered. If
> the LEDs are dim, it could be the old displays themselves are
> deteriorated, or the regulation isn't right, or maybe a bad output
> filter cap on the buck converter. If the brightness is OK, but digit or
> segment intensities fluctuate with count, then it's probably a
> regulation issue.
>
> I used the shunt regulator to isolate the rest of the system from the
> large variation (about 3:1) in total LED current with readout values,
> and it was possible because I had made lower supplies anyway, via DC-DC
> converters. You wouldn't want to linear-regulate all the way down from
> the main supply around 24V, to a few V for the LEDs. As I recall, the
> peak load is in the 200-300 mA range at good brightness. The efficiency
> of the buck converter makes it practical to run this from the normal
> supply or battery voltage. I think the original deal was that on power
> failure it switched to battery mode, the buck converter was shut off to
> shed the LED load, and the clock IC stayed powered up to keep the right
> time. The button below the display could force it to show when needed.
> Mine will work the same way, when/if I ever finish all the details, but
> will have adjustable brightness, and maybe the option of still
> indicating time in backup mode, with very dim LED setting.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time, Part 1

[ed breya]

Paul, what do you mean by the display "looking pretty ratty?" As I 
recall, the original buck regulator had regulated output voltage around 
5V for the LEDs. and the PMOS clock IC needed something around 12V. 
Whatever the LEDs run from, it should be regulated and well filtered. If 
the LEDs are dim, it could be the old displays themselves are 
deteriorated, or the regulation isn't right, or maybe a bad output 
filter cap on the buck converter. If the brightness is OK, but digit or 
segment intensities fluctuate with count, then it's probably a 
regulation issue.


I used the shunt regulator to isolate the rest of the system from the 
large variation (about 3:1) in total LED current with readout values, 
and it was possible because I had made lower supplies anyway, via DC-DC 
converters. You wouldn't want to linear-regulate all the way down from 
the main supply around 24V, to a few V for the LEDs. As I recall, the 
peak load is in the 200-300 mA range at good brightness. The efficiency 
of the buck converter makes it practical to run this from the normal 
supply or battery voltage. I think the original deal was that on power 
failure it switched to battery mode, the buck converter was shut off to 
shed the LED load, and the clock IC stayed powered up to keep the right 
time. The button below the display could force it to show when needed. 
Mine will work the same way, when/if I ever finish all the details, but 
will have adjustable brightness, and maybe the option of still 
indicating time in backup mode, with very dim LED setting.


Ed



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[time-nuts] FCC OTA pre-emption and restrictions on GPS antennas [was: Short term 10MHz source]

[Mark Sims]

A friend of mine has his GPS antenna disguised as a bird feeder...  ground 
plane is a pizza pan.  Antenna mounted at the top of a clear tube filled with 
bird food... alas, no holes for the birds to get to the food.
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Re: [time-nuts] Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time, Part 1

[paul swed]

Yes indeed I also would like one of the analog clocks. But be careful what
you ask for
I have a friend in Switzerland that does have a 5065 with the analog clock.
It tends to drive you a bit crazy with the tick of the step so he says. I
may believe that as I used impulse clocks for world time (1 min steps)for
years and have to say it really is annoying. I finally did replace them
with very quite clocks and don't miss the tick at all. There actually is a
tick from the 4 clocks but really low in amplitude. Easily ignored.
Kind of believe I won't be seeing a Patek any time soon.
Great points on the pmos display boy mine are looking ratty so may try the
shunt regulator if you would care to share the mod you did?
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 2:24 PM Warren Kumari  wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:15 AM Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems) <
> hugh.r...@hp.com> wrote:
>
> > The clock display on a HP Cesium Standard is a bit of a gimmick.   The
> > legend I was told:  An Admiral was touring a nuclear submarine, and was
> > being shown the "Atomic Clocks"  in the navigation section, and said:
> "If
> > the Navy is going to pay 40 grand for an atomic clock, I damn well better
> > be able to set my watch by it."And so the need for the clock display
> > was born.   (There is likely almost nothing true in that heavily
> > embellished story)
> >
> > The 1PPS output, clock display and backup battery were new features added
> > when HP upgraded the 5060A to the 5061A in the early 1970s.   The 1PPS
> > circuit was pretty cool.  Dividing the 10MHz signal down to a narrow 1
> > pulse-per-second signal was straightforward, but they added a delay
> > circuit, actuated with a series of thumbwheel 10 position switches, that
> > would allow you to program a delay from 0.1uS to 1 second.
> Essentially,
> > set the clock (1PPS signal) to match another reference to within one
> cycle
> > of the 10MHz input, or 100 nano-seconds.The cosmetic human readable
> > display was driven by the delayed 1PPS signal.Since the clock is
> "only"
> > human readable, their accuracy is essentially +/- 1 second.But those
> > "in the know" realize that when the clock switches to the next second,
> they
> > are accurate to +/- 100 nano-seconds.  The propagation delay through the
> > display electronics would be tactfully unmentioned.That should be
> good
> > enough for the Admiral.
> >
> > The first 5061A used an analog style clock manufactured by "Patek
> > Philippe".   But it wasn't too many years before Patek Philippe obsoleted
> > the analog electro-mechanical clock, and HP had to design a replacement.
>
>
> Yup -- if anyone happens to have one of the analog style PP clocks that
> they would be willing to part with (possibly in trade for some other time
> stuff) please let me know -- as well as playing with time, I'm also
> interested in watches, and have always wanted to make a desk clock out of
> one of the Patek clocks from a 5061...
>
> W
>
>
>
> > This is the more common LED digital display seen on later 5061As.The
> > catch:  HP needed to support the old 5061A's that had the analog clock.
> So
> > the new LED assembly was designed to be backward compatible service and
> > support component too.Some poor engineer had to come up with a
> solution
> > that fit the electronics in the round hole used by the Patek clock.   3
> > circular PCAs were used, electrically connected with pins from one PCB to
> > the other, so it would be a drop in replacement.It was a hack of epic
> > proportions.  Hard to manufacture, expensive, power hungry.  But it
> > worked and was reliable.
> >
> > As part of the 5061B product, we wanted to cut clean from the baggage of
> > the 5061A past, and didn't have to make all our assemblies backward
> > compatible.   My job as a brand new engineer was to design a sensible
> clock
> > display.   Cheaper, easier to build, using less power.   (I recall that
> the
> > power drain from the clock/LED assembly was significant enough to
> > materially impact the battery backup time.)
> >
> > This was my first ever digital design, and I had a great time coming up
> > with a circuit that would go from 1PPS to a hours, minutes, seconds
> digital
> > display, including a feature that would allow you to easily set the clock
> > by pushing buttons on the back side of the PCA, by sticking a small
> > screwdriver through the cooling holes on the top cover.  I choose to use
> a
> > LCD display, for its low power.  I agonized for weeks on what logic
> family
> > of digital parts to use.  LS-TTL?   4000 CMOS?   I eventually choose the
> > 74HC series of CMOS components.   They were fairly new to market, which I
> > hoped to indicate they would have a long life, since we were going to
> build
> > the 5061B "forever".   And all the components I needed were catalog
> parts.
> >  (Counters, display drivers, AND gates, etc.)
> >
> > In my youthful ignorance, I made a few mistakes that 

Re: [time-nuts] HP3325B as LO for a transceiver or receiver? Phase noise?

[Chris Wilson]

Hello all

 Tuesday, January 1, 2019

Thanks  very much for all the replies and the helpful links. I guess I
should  just  try  and see then!  I much appreciate the trouble people
have   gone  to  explaining  this  although  I  do  not  have  a  full
comprehension of measuring phase noise yet ;) Happy New Year!
 


Best regards,
 Chrismailto:ch...@chriswilson.tv


MG> I have done a study of how good it needs to be on my website:

MG> https://sites.google.com/site/markstcxomeasurements/

MG> Regards,

MG> Mark


MG> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 2:34 PM Artek Manuals 
MG> wrote:

>> The question that remains begging here from the original post (maybe off
>> topic ?) is how low a phase noise does he really NEED in this
>> application? We here at time-nuts tend to think in the 10e-12 minutia
>> area, but In this application ( a HF Communications receiver) the 3325B
>> may be "good enough" that PN wont really be an issue as a practical
>> matter. Don't see who the original poster is from this snippet but a
>> possible better place to get a "practical" answer might be over on the
>> EEVBlog?
>>
>> Dave
>> manu...@artekmanuals.com
>>
>>
>> On 1/1/2019 3:38 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
>> > Hi Chris:
>> >
>> > The HP 8648 Signal Generator was developed to have low phase noise
>> > that was needed for testing pagers.
>> > See second table of SSB Phase Noise at:
>> > https://prc68.com/I/HP8648.shtml
>> >
>> > --
>> > Have Fun,
>> >
>> > Brooke Clarke
>> > https://www.PRC68.com
>> > http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>> > axioms:
>> > 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be
>> > limited by how well you understand how it works.
>> > 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.
>> >
>> >  Original Message 
>> >>
>> >>01/01/2019 14:22
>> >>
>> >> Could I use my HP3325B locked to a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS disciplined
>> >> 10MHz oscillator as the master LO of my Kenwood TS-590S transceiver
>> >> that has a LO at 15.6 MHz, or is the phase noise too great? My VK3HZ
>> >> gps disciplened LO replacement died recently, I may be able to repair
>> >> it but as they are no longer available I am looking at alternatives to
>> >> achieve a very stable frequency. Thanks
>> >>
>> >> https://www.febo.com/pages/hp3325b/
>> >>
>> >> http://www.vk3hz.net/XRef/XRef_Home.html
>> >>
>>
>> --
>> Dave
>> manu...@artekmanuals.com
>> www.ArtekManuals.com
>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time, Part 1

[Warren Kumari]

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:15 AM Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems) <
hugh.r...@hp.com> wrote:

> The clock display on a HP Cesium Standard is a bit of a gimmick.   The
> legend I was told:  An Admiral was touring a nuclear submarine, and was
> being shown the "Atomic Clocks"  in the navigation section, and said:  "If
> the Navy is going to pay 40 grand for an atomic clock, I damn well better
> be able to set my watch by it."And so the need for the clock display
> was born.   (There is likely almost nothing true in that heavily
> embellished story)
>
> The 1PPS output, clock display and backup battery were new features added
> when HP upgraded the 5060A to the 5061A in the early 1970s.   The 1PPS
> circuit was pretty cool.  Dividing the 10MHz signal down to a narrow 1
> pulse-per-second signal was straightforward, but they added a delay
> circuit, actuated with a series of thumbwheel 10 position switches, that
> would allow you to program a delay from 0.1uS to 1 second.Essentially,
> set the clock (1PPS signal) to match another reference to within one cycle
> of the 10MHz input, or 100 nano-seconds.The cosmetic human readable
> display was driven by the delayed 1PPS signal.Since the clock is "only"
> human readable, their accuracy is essentially +/- 1 second.But those
> "in the know" realize that when the clock switches to the next second, they
> are accurate to +/- 100 nano-seconds.  The propagation delay through the
> display electronics would be tactfully unmentioned.That should be good
> enough for the Admiral.
>
> The first 5061A used an analog style clock manufactured by "Patek
> Philippe".   But it wasn't too many years before Patek Philippe obsoleted
> the analog electro-mechanical clock, and HP had to design a replacement.


Yup -- if anyone happens to have one of the analog style PP clocks that
they would be willing to part with (possibly in trade for some other time
stuff) please let me know -- as well as playing with time, I'm also
interested in watches, and have always wanted to make a desk clock out of
one of the Patek clocks from a 5061...

W



> This is the more common LED digital display seen on later 5061As.The
> catch:  HP needed to support the old 5061A's that had the analog clock.  So
> the new LED assembly was designed to be backward compatible service and
> support component too.Some poor engineer had to come up with a solution
> that fit the electronics in the round hole used by the Patek clock.   3
> circular PCAs were used, electrically connected with pins from one PCB to
> the other, so it would be a drop in replacement.It was a hack of epic
> proportions.  Hard to manufacture, expensive, power hungry.  But it
> worked and was reliable.
>
> As part of the 5061B product, we wanted to cut clean from the baggage of
> the 5061A past, and didn't have to make all our assemblies backward
> compatible.   My job as a brand new engineer was to design a sensible clock
> display.   Cheaper, easier to build, using less power.   (I recall that the
> power drain from the clock/LED assembly was significant enough to
> materially impact the battery backup time.)
>
> This was my first ever digital design, and I had a great time coming up
> with a circuit that would go from 1PPS to a hours, minutes, seconds digital
> display, including a feature that would allow you to easily set the clock
> by pushing buttons on the back side of the PCA, by sticking a small
> screwdriver through the cooling holes on the top cover.  I choose to use a
> LCD display, for its low power.  I agonized for weeks on what logic family
> of digital parts to use.  LS-TTL?   4000 CMOS?   I eventually choose the
> 74HC series of CMOS components.   They were fairly new to market, which I
> hoped to indicate they would have a long life, since we were going to build
> the 5061B "forever".   And all the components I needed were catalog parts.
>  (Counters, display drivers, AND gates, etc.)
>
> In my youthful ignorance, I made a few mistakes that Roberto had to clean
> up later.   First, our PC Layout team was experimenting with new auto
> routing software tools, and choose this design to experiment on.   Low
> frequency, low power, simple.  What could go wrong?The auto-routed
> layout worked fine, even though the routing between the components looked
> like the output of a random number generator. (If you download the
> scans of the 5061B manual I uploaded, you can see the random trace routing
> in the picture of the clock assembly.)Next, I didn't appreciate that
> the 74HC logic family was pretty fast, with snappy rise and fall times.
>  Capacitive coupling of signals between traces due to fast edges was a
> foreign concept to me.   Finally, in my overzealous quest to save every
> microwatt in this design, I used 100K resistors for voltage dividers and
> pull downs, rather than a more sensible 10K or 1K values.
>
> My clock display that worked so nice in all our prototypes (1 

Re: [time-nuts] Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time, Part 1

[ed breya]

That's an interesting story and history about the clocks. I happen to 
have the original type digital one, used in a 5065A. I don't have an 
actual 5065A, but many years ago acquired a carcass of one - it was 
missing the Rb physics and a few other things, but was a nice box for 
re-use.


I eventually used it to repackage and improve a Z3801A GPSDO acquired 
later. It turned out to be a good size and layout for this purpose. I 
managed to squeeze in the rearranged Z3801A guts, an extra layer of 
mu-metal shielding and thermal insulation on the OCXO, and a couple of 
12V, 12 A-hr SLA batteries for backup. I used mostly the original power 
supply, and put additional supplies and control circuitry inside the 
original digital synthesizer box for shielding. The whole front panel 
and clock were intact, and I wanted to re-use all that stuff, except 
with different functions and labels - I especially like the door in the 
center with controls and monitoring functions behind it.


The clock appeared to be a very complicated mess at first, and a helluva 
thing to figure out without schematics. I eventually found the 
schematics, and the data sheet for the PMOS clock IC, then everything 
started to make sense.


It used a buck converter to make the low voltage for the LED display, 
which I eliminated since I was making new, cleaner low voltage anyway. 
The board also had some simple 1 PPS interface circuitry etc, that I 
moved elsewhere, so two boards were left for the clock function - one 
for the counting and control, and one for the LEDs. This made the whole 
assembly much shallower, and I found that a tin can (6-1/2 oz tuna can, 
as I recall) made an excellent shield/cover for it. I punched a bunch of 
ventilation holes in it, mechanically mounted it behind the clock 
assembly, and ran all the power and signals through feed-through 
capacitors.


I also changed the internal LED supply to a variable shunt regulator, to 
eliminate pattern-dependent load current. To the outside world, it looks 
like a constant-current load, depending on the selected LED brightness, 
regardless of the readout value. Finally, I fixed the "6" and "9" tails 
on the LED readout. The appearance of the top and bottom segments on 
these numbers depend on the particular IC used, and this one didn't have 
them. This always bugs me, and I try to make it "proper" according to 
me, if possible. It turned out to be very easy to add the tails.


Ed



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[time-nuts] More ES100 WWVB Measurements

[Mark Sims]

Lady Heather has DST code.  It has rules for USA, Europe, and Australia or the 
user can specify a local rule.  The code is not very complicated, but getting 
it right (and testing) can be tricky.



>Has anybody looked into how much code it takes to implement DST? 
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[time-nuts] HP 5061B Cesium Standard Operating and Service Manual Scans uploaded.

[Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems)]

Hello Time Nuts,

I was able to scan the entire HP 5061B Operating and Service Manual, including 
all schematics, before I mailed it to a fellow time-nut (Skip Withrow), and 
uploaded it to:

http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals

Look under HP Agilent, and then under HP 5061.

I also uploaded a copy of the sales brochure for the 5061B.   I thought it was 
interesting to see how HP was promoting the cesium standards back in the day.  
Some interesting tidbits on other PFS products in the brochure.

Could one of you 5061 collectors down load the manuals, and let me know of this 
all worked OK?

Hopefully someone will be able to fix an old cesium standard with this.

Hugh Rice

PS - I also have scans of all the frequency and time HP application notes:   
52-1, 52-2, 52-4.Some are available elsewhere on line.  Is it worth adding 
these to this web-site?



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Re: [time-nuts] Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time, Part 1

[Tom Van Baak]

> I once showed the CEO our brand new $100K cisco AGS+ router.  It
> was kitted out to the hilt with ethernet interfaces, but the front
> side he saw had only the orange bridge siloutte and a single green
> power LED.  He looked at it and then said "For that kind of money,
> couldn't they at least make it blink ?"

Perhaps this would impress a CEO:

http://leapsecond.com/museum/patek/30-2895_2.jpg
http://leapsecond.com/museum/patek/

(not my Patek Philippe photos; these vintage pieces are beyond my time nut 
budget)

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time, Part 1

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message , "Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems)" writes:

>The clock display on a HP Cesium Standard is a bit of a gimmick.
>The legend I was told:  An Admiral was touring a nuclear submarine,
>and was being shown the "Atomic Clocks"  in the navigation section,
>and said:  "If the Navy is going to pay 40 grand for an atomic
>clock, I damn well better be able to set my watch by it."

I once showed the CEO our brand new $100K cisco AGS+ router.  It
was kitted out to the hilt with ethernet interfaces, but the front
side he saw had only the orange bridge siloutte and a single green
power LED.  He looked at it and then said "For that kind of money,
couldn't they at least make it blink ?"

> Some poor engineer had to come up with a solution that fit the
> electronics in the round hole used by the Patek clock.   3 circular
> PCAs were used, electrically connected with pins from one PCB to
> the other, so it would be a drop in replacement.It was a hack
> of epic proportions.  Hard to manufacture, expensive, power
> hungry.  But it worked and was reliable.

Well, about that...

http://phk.freebsd.dk/hacks/HP5065A/20151225_clock/index.html

http://phk.freebsd.dk/hacks/HP5065A/20160112_working_clock/index.html

(I still have spare PCBs available)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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[time-nuts] Atomic Clocks: It is important that they keep good time, Part 1

[Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems)]

The clock display on a HP Cesium Standard is a bit of a gimmick.   The legend I 
was told:  An Admiral was touring a nuclear submarine, and was being shown the 
"Atomic Clocks"  in the navigation section, and said:  "If the Navy is going to 
pay 40 grand for an atomic clock, I damn well better be able to set my watch by 
it."And so the need for the clock display was born.   (There is likely 
almost nothing true in that heavily embellished story)

The 1PPS output, clock display and backup battery were new features added when 
HP upgraded the 5060A to the 5061A in the early 1970s.   The 1PPS circuit was 
pretty cool.  Dividing the 10MHz signal down to a narrow 1 pulse-per-second 
signal was straightforward, but they added a delay circuit, actuated with a 
series of thumbwheel 10 position switches, that would allow you to program a 
delay from 0.1uS to 1 second.Essentially, set the clock (1PPS signal) to 
match another reference to within one cycle of the 10MHz input, or 100 
nano-seconds.The cosmetic human readable display was driven by the delayed 
1PPS signal.Since the clock is "only" human readable, their accuracy is 
essentially +/- 1 second.But those "in the know" realize that when the 
clock switches to the next second, they are accurate to +/- 100 nano-seconds.  
The propagation delay through the display electronics would be tactfully 
unmentioned.That should be good enough for the Admiral.

The first 5061A used an analog style clock manufactured by "Patek Philippe".   
But it wasn't too many years before Patek Philippe obsoleted the analog 
electro-mechanical clock, and HP had to design a replacement.  This is the more 
common LED digital display seen on later 5061As.The catch:  HP needed to 
support the old 5061A's that had the analog clock.  So the new LED assembly was 
designed to be backward compatible service and support component too.Some 
poor engineer had to come up with a solution that fit the electronics in the 
round hole used by the Patek clock.   3 circular PCAs were used, electrically 
connected with pins from one PCB to the other, so it would be a drop in 
replacement.It was a hack of epic proportions.  Hard to manufacture, 
expensive, power hungry.  But it worked and was reliable.

As part of the 5061B product, we wanted to cut clean from the baggage of the 
5061A past, and didn't have to make all our assemblies backward compatible.   
My job as a brand new engineer was to design a sensible clock display.   
Cheaper, easier to build, using less power.   (I recall that the power drain 
from the clock/LED assembly was significant enough to materially impact the 
battery backup time.)

This was my first ever digital design, and I had a great time coming up with a 
circuit that would go from 1PPS to a hours, minutes, seconds digital display, 
including a feature that would allow you to easily set the clock by pushing 
buttons on the back side of the PCA, by sticking a small screwdriver through 
the cooling holes on the top cover.  I choose to use a LCD display, for its low 
power.  I agonized for weeks on what logic family of digital parts to use.  
LS-TTL?   4000 CMOS?   I eventually choose the 74HC series of CMOS components.  
 They were fairly new to market, which I hoped to indicate they would have a 
long life, since we were going to build the 5061B "forever".   And all the 
components I needed were catalog parts.   (Counters, display drivers, AND 
gates, etc.)

In my youthful ignorance, I made a few mistakes that Roberto had to clean up 
later.   First, our PC Layout team was experimenting with new auto routing 
software tools, and choose this design to experiment on.   Low frequency, low 
power, simple.  What could go wrong?The auto-routed layout worked fine, 
even though the routing between the components looked like the output of a 
random number generator. (If you download the scans of the 5061B manual I 
uploaded, you can see the random trace routing in the picture of the clock 
assembly.)Next, I didn't appreciate that the 74HC logic family was pretty 
fast, with snappy rise and fall times.   Capacitive coupling of signals between 
traces due to fast edges was a foreign concept to me.   Finally, in my 
overzealous quest to save every microwatt in this design, I used 100K resistors 
for voltage dividers and pull downs, rather than a more sensible 10K or 1K 
values.

My clock display that worked so nice in all our prototypes (1 sample), turned 
out to be capable of catching a stray glitch now and then, since the 1PPS 
signal wound all over the PCB before it was input to the first IC.After a 
few years of production, some customers complained that the clock would 
sometimes skip a second.

The Atomic Clock didn't keep accurate time!

I had moved on from PFS production engineering to Frequency Counter Production 
Engineering Management when this was discovered, and Roberto called me up and 
gave me hell about my crappy