Re: [time-nuts] Are there SC-crystals out there in the wild that are not Overtone?

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 28.02.20 um 11:34 schrieb Attila Kinali:

Yes, but how many of us can build a time-nuts quality oscillator?
I'm still lacking that paper/book that teaches me how to build
a high stability oscillator.


Especially if you see THIS in a tutorial and 5 cm below the OOOH

so precise phase noise simulation results of this circuit:

- < short.png  > -

That builds confidence.


But Bernd was very precise with his prediction where the fundamental

of the SC crystal was to be expected. The sweep took abt. 25 minutes @ 
1Hz RBW.



The step on the left side is where the next measurement happens.

The crystal laid openly on the end of the port cable on the table at 
room temperature.


--- <  fundamental.png > ---


I have a couple of 5MHz 3rd OT SC cut crystals in HC-37 case sitting
in a box, waiting to be used as some oscillator, I just lack the knowledge
to make good use of them.



regards, Gerhard



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Re: [time-nuts] uBlox F9T

[Peter Vince]

Further to Bob's message, these PDFs can be downloaded from Ublox's website
at:


https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/zed-f9t-module#tab-documentation-resources

and similarly for the F9P:


https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/zed-f9p-module#tab-documentation-resources

Regards,  Peter


On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 at 13:47, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> For any out playing with the F9T, there is a new version of the manuals
out. They also have
> an update to the “ROM boot loader" code. I have yet to work out if you
can do a field upgrade
> on that part of it. My guess is “not so much”.
>
> Still no stock at any of the “usual” US distributors. The F9P and F9P kit
are in stock at Digikey
> for the same sort of prices ($199 / $250) as earlier in the year.
>
> Bob
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Re: [time-nuts] Are there SC-crystals out there in the wild that are not Overtone?

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Feb 28, 2020, at 9:33 AM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 2/28/20 2:34 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:45:16 -0800
>> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  wrote:
>>> OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
>>> oscillator and see where it oscillates.
>>> That's what they did back in the dark
>>> ages.
>>> 
>>> Any time nut should be up for that.
>> Yes, but how many of us can build a time-nuts quality oscillator?
>> I'm still lacking that paper/book that teaches me how to build
>> a high stability oscillator.
> 
> 
> I think to a large extent that is more art than science. High performance 
> electronics (low noise, high stability, mass production, you name it) is 
> always a combination of tradeoffs of non-ideal behavior, much of which is not 
> necessarily modelable in a systems sense. So the trades get made by "gut 
> feel" developed from experience.

There are papers that dive into some of the tradeoffs. Things like 
phase noise get a lot of attention. However, every attempt that I’m
aware of to write an “oscillator cookbook” has either become very
narrow ( = how to use this chip in a clock oscillator) or has hit a wall
before becoming useful. 

The normal way high precision oscillators are “learned" is to either 
learn it from the guy on the next bench (who already knows) or to
do a whole lot of experimentation. Even there, the process is pretty
narrowly focused. 

Bob

> 
> Driving along that path a bit further, the really fundamental improvements 
> come when someone figures out how to get better performance without needing 
> art and skill.  Movable type brought the written word to everyone. Offset 
> printing brought high quality image reproduction to the masses. Silicon 
> lithography brought computation to all of us.
> 
> 
>> I have a couple of 5MHz 3rd OT SC cut crystals in HC-37 case sitting
>> in a box, waiting to be used as some oscillator, I just lack the knowledge
>> to make good use of them.
> 
> Experiment. Build a fet or MMIC oscillator and see how it works.
> 
>>  Attila Kinali
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Are there SC-crystals out there in the wild that are not Overtone?

[jimlux]

On 2/28/20 2:34 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:45:16 -0800
"Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  wrote:


OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
oscillator and see where it oscillates.
That's what they did back in the dark
ages.

Any time nut should be up for that.


Yes, but how many of us can build a time-nuts quality oscillator?
I'm still lacking that paper/book that teaches me how to build
a high stability oscillator.



I think to a large extent that is more art than science. High 
performance electronics (low noise, high stability, mass production, you 
name it) is always a combination of tradeoffs of non-ideal behavior, 
much of which is not necessarily modelable in a systems sense. So the 
trades get made by "gut feel" developed from experience.


Driving along that path a bit further, the really fundamental 
improvements come when someone figures out how to get better performance 
without needing art and skill.  Movable type brought the written word to 
everyone. Offset printing brought high quality image reproduction to the 
masses. Silicon lithography brought computation to all of us.





I have a couple of 5MHz 3rd OT SC cut crystals in HC-37 case sitting
in a box, waiting to be used as some oscillator, I just lack the knowledge
to make good use of them.


Experiment. Build a fet or MMIC oscillator and see how it works.



Attila Kinali




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[time-nuts] uBlox F9T

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

For any out playing with the F9T, there is a new version of the manuals out. 
They also have
an update to the “ROM boot loader" code. I have yet to work out if you can do a 
field upgrade 
on that part of it. My guess is “not so much”. 

Still no stock at any of the “usual” US distributors. The F9P and F9P kit are 
in stock at Digikey
for the same sort of prices ($199 / $250) as earlier in the year. 

Bob
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Re: [time-nuts] Any time-nut able to copy 82S191 PROM?

[Steve - Home]

Skip,

I have a Data I/O 29B on a shelf somewhere. I think those are the same PROMs 
used in the 11869A for speciality plug ins like the Hughes mmwave plug ins. If 
so I’ve burned a number of them and am happy to help out. 


Steve
WB0DBS



> On Feb 27, 2020, at 6:20 PM, Skip Withrow  wrote:
> 
> Hello Time-Nuts,
> I have an 82S191 bipolar PROM that I need copied (to do a software
> upgrade).  Just wondering if there is a time-nut in the U.S. that has
> the capability still?  I can send the master device and blank PROM,
> and will provide the label to send them back to me.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> Skip Withrow
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Are there SC-crystals out there in the wild that are not Overtone?

[Gilles Clement]

Well said, been looking for this « tutorial» eagerly myself too.
GC.


> Le 28 févr. 2020 à 11:35, Attila Kinali  a écrit :
> 
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:45:16 -0800
> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  wrote:
> 
>> OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
>> oscillator and see where it oscillates.
>> That's what they did back in the dark
>> ages.
>> Any time nut should be up for that.
> 
> Yes, but how many of us can build a time-nuts quality oscillator?
> I'm still lacking that paper/book that teaches me how to build
> a high stability oscillator.
> 
> I have a couple of 5MHz 3rd OT SC cut crystals in HC-37 case sitting
> in a box, waiting to be used as some oscillator, I just lack the knowledge
> to make good use of them.
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it.
> In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing 
> it.
>   -- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Are there SC-crystals out there in the wild that are not Overtone?

[Azelio Boriani]

Reference on high quality crystal oscillators:


On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 11:35 AM Attila Kinali  wrote:
>
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:45:16 -0800
> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  wrote:
>
> > OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
> > oscillator and see where it oscillates.
> > That's what they did back in the dark
> > ages.
> >
> > Any time nut should be up for that.
>
> Yes, but how many of us can build a time-nuts quality oscillator?
> I'm still lacking that paper/book that teaches me how to build
> a high stability oscillator.
>
> I have a couple of 5MHz 3rd OT SC cut crystals in HC-37 case sitting
> in a box, waiting to be used as some oscillator, I just lack the knowledge
> to make good use of them.
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it.
> In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing 
> it.
> -- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering
>
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> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Are there SC-crystals out there in the wild that are not Overtone?

[Bruce Griffiths]

That's not relevant.
The idea is to see what frequency the crystal oscillates at not to build a high 
stability oscillator.
If can be made to oscillate at a frequency somewhere around 5MHz/3 then its 
likely a third overtone crystal.

Bruce
> On 28 February 2020 at 23:34 Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:45:16 -0800
> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  wrote:
> 
> > OTOH, you could build a simple Colpitts
> > oscillator and see where it oscillates.
> > That's what they did back in the dark
> > ages.
> > 
> > Any time nut should be up for that.
> 
> Yes, but how many of us can build a time-nuts quality oscillator?
> I'm still lacking that paper/book that teaches me how to build
> a high stability oscillator.
> 
> I have a couple of 5MHz 3rd OT SC cut crystals in HC-37 case sitting
> in a box, waiting to be used as some oscillator, I just lack the knowledge
> to make good use of them.
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it.
> In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing 
> it.
> -- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering
> 
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> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.

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