Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
Paul, "The new de-psk-r I built has no raw wwvb outputs." What do you mean by raw? I have been thinking about how the phase shift could be detected in software instead of hardware. Could something like this maybe work: If a micro is able to detect the zero crossing of a sine wave it should be able to determine if the phase shifts. When a new second starts (which is easy to determine), delay for 300 msec and then watch for the next zero crossing. Store the time at that point. Then wait 1000 msec which would put you at the same point in the next second. Wait for the next zero crossing and determine the time between that crossing and the first crossing. You can compute the phase difference based on the time difference. If the phase difference is between 100 degrees and 180 degrees, you know a phase shift has taken place. The reason for using 100 as the low number is in case the zero crossing on one sine wave was at the leading edge and it was on the trailing edge of the other one. You would want to use the output of the PLL to perform those operations since it is local and not subject to ionospheric interference or delays. A 100 MHz STM32 should be able to easily handle the calculations in a couple of microseconds. Ray, AB7HE Original Message Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions From: paul swed Date: Wed, July 29, 2020 8:07 pm To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement John Thanks for jumping in and sharing what you have done. OK just maybe I can get the receiver online with a TCXO class oscillator. Or just go buy the digikey unit and follow what you have done. What the heck all of the rest of the receiver is the same. That leaves just one problem. A terrible one to have. The new de-psk-r I built has no raw wwvb outputs. I debated about adding one. Woulda shoulda. Appreciate you jumping in. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:00 PM John Magliacane via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > Greetings to the group! > > I've been an FMTer for years, and an occasional "lurker" here, but as I > find my ears occasionally "whistling" from time to time, I thought it was > time to join in. :-) > > > On Jul 22, 2020, at 3:51 PM, paul swed wrote: > > > > Ray watch out for my comment on the KD2BD solution. That oscillator isn't > > available and I have not been able to map something else into it. Tried > > several good grade Oven oscillators. Just be aware of that issue. > > Would need to do more tinkering and simply don't have that time right > now. > > Also it would be great if the oscillator was something that could be > > obtained at a reasonable cost. I do not believe at all it has to be a > > OCXO as the older true time and spectracoms were not and they locked > solid. > > So its a case of getting the control voltages right. > > As Paul correctly stated, the Bomar VCTCXO used in my WWVB Frequency > Standard is no longer available, at least in single quantities. > Fortunately, there are MUCH better alternatives available, but they require > a little "finagling". Hopefully, this information will help. > > I have successfully used a Taitien model TTEAMCSANF-10.00 High > Precision VCTCXO in my frequency standard with excellent results. This > oscillator operates on 3.3 volts, and produces about a 1 volt p-p clipped > sinewave output. It has a +/- 5 ppm pulling range, and is controlled by a > positive slope tuning voltage between 0.5 and 2.5 volts. > > I've used two of these oscillators so far (in different projects), and > both seem to tune exactly to 10 MHz with a tuning voltage close to 1.551 > volts. However, YMMV. Use these numbers as a guide if your oscillator > should have different specs. > > The attached schematic shows the original circuit at the top with the > modified circuit at the bottom. A 3.3 volt LDO powers the oscillator, and a > simple MFP-102 JFET amplifies the output to drive the subsequent 5-volt > CMOS logic. > > The original oscillator was temperature sensitive, and took several > minutes to warm up and settle down. I often had to manually tune the > oscillator on power-up using the front panel tuning control to get it in > the ballpark where it would eventually lock to WWVB. > > Now when I turn it on, the new oscillator locks to WWVB in about 30 > seconds, and just stays there. :-) > > Digikey carries it for $13.81. > > > 73.000 de John, KD2BD___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
John Thanks for jumping in and sharing what you have done. OK just maybe I can get the receiver online with a TCXO class oscillator. Or just go buy the digikey unit and follow what you have done. What the heck all of the rest of the receiver is the same. That leaves just one problem. A terrible one to have. The new de-psk-r I built has no raw wwvb outputs. I debated about adding one. Woulda shoulda. Appreciate you jumping in. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 10:00 PM John Magliacane via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > Greetings to the group! > > I've been an FMTer for years, and an occasional "lurker" here, but as I > find my ears occasionally "whistling" from time to time, I thought it was > time to join in. :-) > > > On Jul 22, 2020, at 3:51 PM, paul swed wrote: > > > > Ray watch out for my comment on the KD2BD solution. That oscillator isn't > > available and I have not been able to map something else into it. Tried > > several good grade Oven oscillators. Just be aware of that issue. > > Would need to do more tinkering and simply don't have that time right > now. > > Also it would be great if the oscillator was something that could be > > obtained at a reasonable cost. I do not believe at all it has to be a > > OCXO as the older true time and spectracoms were not and they locked > solid. > > So its a case of getting the control voltages right. > > As Paul correctly stated, the Bomar VCTCXO used in my WWVB Frequency > Standard is no longer available, at least in single quantities. > Fortunately, there are MUCH better alternatives available, but they require > a little "finagling". Hopefully, this information will help. > > I have successfully used a Taitien model TTEAMCSANF-10.00 High > Precision VCTCXO in my frequency standard with excellent results. This > oscillator operates on 3.3 volts, and produces about a 1 volt p-p clipped > sinewave output. It has a +/- 5 ppm pulling range, and is controlled by a > positive slope tuning voltage between 0.5 and 2.5 volts. > > I've used two of these oscillators so far (in different projects), and > both seem to tune exactly to 10 MHz with a tuning voltage close to 1.551 > volts. However, YMMV. Use these numbers as a guide if your oscillator > should have different specs. > > The attached schematic shows the original circuit at the top with the > modified circuit at the bottom. A 3.3 volt LDO powers the oscillator, and a > simple MFP-102 JFET amplifies the output to drive the subsequent 5-volt > CMOS logic. > > The original oscillator was temperature sensitive, and took several > minutes to warm up and settle down. I often had to manually tune the > oscillator on power-up using the front panel tuning control to get it in > the ballpark where it would eventually lock to WWVB. > > Now when I turn it on, the new oscillator locks to WWVB in about 30 > seconds, and just stays there. :-) > > Digikey carries it for $13.81. > > > 73.000 de John, KD2BD___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
Greetings to the group! I've been an FMTer for years, and an occasional "lurker" here, but as I find my ears occasionally "whistling" from time to time, I thought it was time to join in. :-) > On Jul 22, 2020, at 3:51 PM, paul swed wrote: > > Ray watch out for my comment on the KD2BD solution. That oscillator isn't > available and I have not been able to map something else into it. Tried > several good grade Oven oscillators. Just be aware of that issue. > Would need to do more tinkering and simply don't have that time right now. > Also it would be great if the oscillator was something that could be > obtained at a reasonable cost. I do not believe at all it has to be a > OCXO as the older true time and spectracoms were not and they locked solid. > So its a case of getting the control voltages right. As Paul correctly stated, the Bomar VCTCXO used in my WWVB Frequency Standard is no longer available, at least in single quantities. Fortunately, there are MUCH better alternatives available, but they require a little "finagling". Hopefully, this information will help. I have successfully used a Taitien model TTEAMCSANF-10.00 High Precision VCTCXO in my frequency standard with excellent results. This oscillator operates on 3.3 volts, and produces about a 1 volt p-p clipped sinewave output. It has a +/- 5 ppm pulling range, and is controlled by a positive slope tuning voltage between 0.5 and 2.5 volts. I've used two of these oscillators so far (in different projects), and both seem to tune exactly to 10 MHz with a tuning voltage close to 1.551 volts. However, YMMV. Use these numbers as a guide if your oscillator should have different specs. The attached schematic shows the original circuit at the top with the modified circuit at the bottom. A 3.3 volt LDO powers the oscillator, and a simple MFP-102 JFET amplifies the output to drive the subsequent 5-volt CMOS logic. The original oscillator was temperature sensitive, and took several minutes to warm up and settle down. I often had to manually tune the oscillator on power-up using the front panel tuning control to get it in the ballpark where it would eventually lock to WWVB. Now when I turn it on, the new oscillator locks to WWVB in about 30 seconds, and just stays there. :-) Digikey carries it for $13.81. 73.000 de John, KD2BD___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP-5372A operation with no battery
Thank you all for the help IDing the battery. I now have one on order. Pete ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP-5372A operation with no battery
Hi Peter, On 2020-07-29 18:34, Peter Worrall wrote: > Would someone please tell me the type of battery used in the 5372A. I have > one to change, and it would save me opening it twice! It's a 3.6 V litium battery (non-rechargeable). Check the HP 5371A service manual for the A7 assembly. Check the HP 5372A service manual for calibration detais (Chapter 3 sensitivity calibration). You should be able to locate the service manuals on the Keysight websight, that's where I got them last time I tried. The HP 5372A builds on the HP 5371A hardware platform but replaced a number of boards, in particular the event board which performs hardware histogram enhancement over the 5371A. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP-5372A operation with no battery
I ordered mine from Jameco. Part number 33398. -Original Message- From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Peter Worrall Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 12:35 PM To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP-5372A operation with no battery Would someone please tell me the type of battery used in the 5372A. I have one to change, and it would save me opening it twice! Thanks Pete TR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP-5372A operation with no battery
Would someone please tell me the type of battery used in the 5372A. I have one to change, and it would save me opening it twice! Thanks Pete TR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP-5372A operation with no battery
Hi Lester, On 2020-07-29 16:22, Lester Veenstra wrote: > Hi Magnus: > You are, of course right; For a ham, the video board repair was trivial. I > now have three working boards, one reinstalled in my HP-5372A. While I do not found it natural that I am right, I am happy that my hunch was correct. Really great to head > So, of course, now I have the out of cal message, traceable to the RAM > battery failure. I know this has been discussed a number of times before, but > without a search function in The time-nuts Archives, I will take the easy way > out, and ask you, or any one else willing to contribute. I did just comment on that actually, so it's just weeks back. > > The maintenance manual I have is an Adobe PDF image that was never OCRed, so > it also is not searchable. I have not been able to find the BATTERY. > > So where is it, and are there any tricks to replacing it? It was a fairly straightforward procedure to replace it, it sits on the CPU board. > Once replaced, which set of alignment steps are needed to get the instrument > back to a basic time and frequency functionality? I did the basics, see Adjustments in chapter 3 of manual. I ended not have to do anything to the interpolator so I stopped there. It was all very basic and not particularly costly time-wise, at least to my recollection. I dug out the service manual file, and it was not where I expected, but that was good because I found a bunch of stuff gone missing. :) Anyway, just caring to replace with correct battery and then run through the procedures was manageable and not very heavy work. Very few parts of this design requires tuning, and if so only slight. It's the OCXO (10811) if one wants to have fun (and you know I do). One of the features of this device which may be curious to know, is that it was among the first (HP5371A it's sibling was earlier for sure) to use linear regression for frequency estimation. This way before the counters that would give rise to delta and omega counter naming. So, setting it up can give improved quick frequency measures. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP-5372A operation with no battery
Hi Magnus: You are, of course right; For a ham, the video board repair was trivial. I now have three working boards, one reinstalled in my HP-5372A. So, of course, now I have the out of cal message, traceable to the RAM battery failure. I know this has been discussed a number of times before, but without a search function in The time-nuts Archives, I will take the easy way out, and ask you, or any one else willing to contribute. The maintenance manual I have is an Adobe PDF image that was never OCRed, so it also is not searchable. I have not been able to find the BATTERY. So where is it, and are there any tricks to replacing it? Once replaced, which set of alignment steps are needed to get the instrument back to a basic time and frequency functionality? Appreciate the help: Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y les...@veenstras.com 452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail) Keyser WV 26726 GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google) GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO) Telephones: Home: +1-304-289-6057 US cell+1-304-790-9192 Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
