Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
Hi Paul, I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts, as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up to date with the progress. Cheers, Magnus On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote: > Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed. > Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA. > The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an > alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate > some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I > have heard of in Europe. > But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very > interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle. > Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other > satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space > Force (Yes thats actually real now). > Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to > operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind > that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites. > Sorry for that editorial. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites? >> >> Cheers, >> Magnus >> >> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote: >>> Hello to fellow time nuts. >>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air >>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have >>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow. >>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long >>> run. Nice. >>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also. >>> Enjoy. >>> Paul >>> WB8TSL >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] another source of time...
On 8/5/20 4:18 PM, Mark Haun wrote: I wonder if someone maintains a directory of ionosondes. Seems like waste/duplication to have every interested party set up their own, instead of piggy-backing on what's already out there. There's also the pollution factor---one certainly hears them often enough while operating narrowband on shortwave, and while not particularly intrusive, we don't need more. yes, there is a directory of ionosondes.. I can't lay my fingers on it right now, but it's there. I've always wondered about the military VLF stations like NLK (Seattle, WA) and NAA (Cutler, ME). Their FSK modulation may not require extreme frequency accuracy, but it's so easy, perhaps they do lock to GPS? Of course, the data themselves are encrypted so you wouldn't be able to derive anything except a frequency reference. The advantage would be they are substantially more powerful than WWVB. Does much VLF leak out into space? I don't know how much VLF is used these days, but I'm sure their timing is derived from a GPSDO if nothing else. Very little propagates to space, ionospheric absorption blocks VLF for the most part. And, as we head into the next solar cycle, ol' Sol is cranking up, so the "thou shall not pass" frequency is rising. https://solar-radio.gsfc.nasa.gov/wind/burst_images/wind_stereo_20130522.png is a picture of the spectrum for a 24 hour period recorded in 3 places, when there was a big Type II burst (associated with Coronal Mass Ejections) (and a few type III bursts, which are more common,and a lot faster) It's not the best to see the diurnal variation in propagation, but look at the top part of the plots above 1 MHz. Mark On 05-Aug-20 3:44 PM, jimlux wrote: I was researching potential calibration sources for our orbiting receivers (where we need to line up GNSS signals with HF signals) and after looking at the usual suspects like WWV, we came across another one. Ionosondes - they're all over the place, and these days, they're fairly accurately timed (how accurately? I don't know.) Timing wise, since wide band and oblique sounders are popular, they must be fairly well controlled, since the transmitter and receiver are not co-located. A traditional vertical sounder drives the transmitter and receiver off the same clock, so they don't care so much about what time it is. I think these things are designed so they have resolutions in "meters" or "tens of meters" which implies sub microsecond accuracy at worst. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for information on Brightline oscillator
One thing I've noticed in old mystery oscillators and other RF modules, is that they often use 3-terminal or other regulators inside. If you gradually increase the supply voltage, the current goes up rapidly, then levels off as sufficient overhead is reached. That gives some idea of where they were designed to run. Also, there are usually reverse-voltage protection diodes in series, so if you get no current draw in one polarity, try the other. Reverse protection may sometimes be implemented with shunt diodes instead, and it's obvious when it's backwards. Of course, if it's an OCXO with a single supply, it will take higher current for warmup, then settle down, so takes longer to figure out what's going on. For the other pins, first ohm them out to see if some are extra grounds, and for any measurable resistance to ground. Once you get it juiced up and running, check for voltages on the pins - sometimes an internal DC reference is brought out to supply a tweak pot for the EFC. Good luck. Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Looking for information on Brightline oscillator
Hi In that era, 12 and 24V are the two candidate supply voltages. Assuming there are no wires to the other pins, no need to supply power to them. What to do: Try 12V and see what happens. If you get a stable output at > +7 dbm and good ( = low ) harmonics. That’s the supply. If not, slowly increase up to 24 and see if the output improves. Once you have it working, probe the other pins. You may have an oven monitor or other test outputs. The “worst case” is that one of the pins is an output enable pin. If it’s unconnected ( = there’s no clue) that’s really odd. Fun !! Bob > On Aug 5, 2020, at 8:59 PM, Skip Withrow wrote: > > Hello Time-Nuts, > OK, have one for the old timers out there. Does anyone have pinout or > voltage input information on a Brightline oscillator? This company > was founded by Charles S. Stone in Cedar Park, TX. His company was > soon purchased by Frequency Electronics and he went to work for them. > > The oscillators in question (I have a 10MHz and a 100MHz) are 1980's > vintage and the base looks exactly the same on both of them. There is > a 9-pin (tube socket) connector, plus two SMA connectors (I believe > one is output and the other EFC). There are red and black wires > connected to the units so I think I know the basic Gnd and Supply > pins. However, I don't know the supply voltage, or what any of the > other pins might be used for. > > As always, all help appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > Skip Withrow > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Looking for information on Brightline oscillator
Hello Time-Nuts, OK, have one for the old timers out there. Does anyone have pinout or voltage input information on a Brightline oscillator? This company was founded by Charles S. Stone in Cedar Park, TX. His company was soon purchased by Frequency Electronics and he went to work for them. The oscillators in question (I have a 10MHz and a 100MHz) are 1980's vintage and the base looks exactly the same on both of them. There is a 9-pin (tube socket) connector, plus two SMA connectors (I believe one is output and the other EFC). There are red and black wires connected to the units so I think I know the basic Gnd and Supply pins. However, I don't know the supply voltage, or what any of the other pins might be used for. As always, all help appreciated. Thanks in advance. Skip Withrow ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
We seem to be going through another stage in our technological evolution right now as far as redundancy goes. To explain what I mean: A long time ago things were so unreliable that everyone knew that you needed two systems, even if one was the watch in your pocket and a compass and sextant for PNT. As technological systems got better and better somehow we forgot this lesson. GPS is so reliable that people don't even think about the possibility that it might go away, so we got complacent about maintaining the old systems to maintain a backup. Things like LORAN C were cut for 'cost savings' reasons, since why keep a backup for a system that never fails? I can't fault the logic, assuming one buys the perfect reliability premise (no I don't buy this as at all). Recently it's become obvious there are lots of ways that our technology can fail. Not just GPS but I could cite other examples not relevant to this list. So we've now entered the phase where we're trying to figure out what to do to regain the capabilities we carelessly discarded in the past based on a false premise of the new stuff being perfectly reliable. Fortunately for PNT, the US government definitely signaled that the redundancy must be ground-based when they passed the "National Timing Resilience and Security Act". So hopefully we don't have to worry about the second system being space-based. Heck, we already have at least 2 space-based alternatives in orbit. They were supposed to get this in place within 2 years, which I think means the end of 2020 if I'm reading the dates right. Since it's already August, I doubt they'll meet the deadline. Hopefully, with the testing they're doing, it won't be much longer. On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:15 PM paul swed wrote: > Jim > Thanks for the insights. Oh I am not selling it for emp. I am simply saying > no would be general wants a rusty old steel tower as a career booster. I > remember when LORAN C was shut down the president said he was saving $36M a > year. Thats drop in the old bucket. I also remember the LORAN C antennas on > mobile tower sites for timing along with GPS. > Thanks again Jim. > Fire up that LORAN C receiver and see what you can hear. > Regards > Paul > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:41 PM jimlux wrote: > > > On 8/5/20 12:40 PM, Tom Knox wrote: > > > Hi Paul and Magnus; > > > Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a > > ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair. > > > > The vulnerability of GNSS systems to EMP attacks is not all that high - > > GPS is, after all, a DoD essential system, and lives in a ridiculously > > high radiation environment in MEO - They're also hard to neutrons (based > > on published specs for components in the GNSS satellites). > > > > In most scenarios, LEO satellites get hammered, MEO and GEO not so much. > > > > https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531197.pdf > > > > "GPS and GEO satellites are threatened only by the very high yield (~ 10 > > Mt) detonations of our trial set." > > > > I'll note that the largest the US has detonated in space are the Teak > > and Orange shots 3.8Mt (at <100km), and only Starfish Prime (1.4Mt) at > > 400km cased significant problems. > > > > The usual "use case" for EMP is to affect aircraft and ground based > > assets, and the burst height is low (so the air around the burst is > > denser - more particle interactions = more current = more field) - > > conversely, this reduces the flux at 20,000 km (where GPS is) and > > 36,000km (GEO) > > > > Ultimately, it's that your victim is a Long, long ways away from > > whatever the phenomenon is. > > > > I've been doing a lot of analysis on EMI/RFI effects on precision timing > > in GEO+1000km - we are looking at bursts from the sun, and timing it > > with GNSS satellites. Things that I agonized over (high power shortwave > > broadcasters radiating 500kW into a 24dBi curtain array) in my LEO > > satellite at 500km just become a non-issue at 37,000 km. Inverse square > > law really helps. > > > > > > Anyway, that DTIC report will give you plenty to geek out over. > > > > > > Yes, there would be significant disruption in timing accuracy due to the > > ionized particles - I'm not sure if dual frequency would be enough to > > compensate. > > > > > > I think alternate timing and nav systems are good idea, but selling it > > as "GPS will be knocked out by EMP" isn't going to get you very far. > > > > > > > Cheers; > > > > > > Tom Knox > > > > > > act...@hotmail.com > > > > > > "Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" > Both > > MLK and Albert Einstein > > > > > > > > > From: time-nuts on behalf of paul > > swed > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM > > > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement < > > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> > > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600 > > > > > > Hi Magnus been a while since
Re: [time-nuts] another source of time...
I wonder if someone maintains a directory of ionosondes. Seems like waste/duplication to have every interested party set up their own, instead of piggy-backing on what's already out there. There's also the pollution factor---one certainly hears them often enough while operating narrowband on shortwave, and while not particularly intrusive, we don't need more. I've always wondered about the military VLF stations like NLK (Seattle, WA) and NAA (Cutler, ME). Their FSK modulation may not require extreme frequency accuracy, but it's so easy, perhaps they do lock to GPS? Of course, the data themselves are encrypted so you wouldn't be able to derive anything except a frequency reference. The advantage would be they are substantially more powerful than WWVB. Does much VLF leak out into space? Mark On 05-Aug-20 3:44 PM, jimlux wrote: > I was researching potential calibration sources for our orbiting > receivers (where we need to line up GNSS signals with HF signals) and > after looking at the usual suspects like WWV, we came across another one. > > Ionosondes - they're all over the place, and these days, they're > fairly accurately timed (how accurately? I don't know.) > > Timing wise, since wide band and oblique sounders are popular, they > must be fairly well controlled, since the transmitter and receiver are > not co-located. A traditional vertical sounder drives the transmitter > and receiver off the same clock, so they don't care so much about what > time it is. > > I think these things are designed so they have resolutions in "meters" > or "tens of meters" which implies sub microsecond accuracy at worst. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] another source of time...
I was researching potential calibration sources for our orbiting receivers (where we need to line up GNSS signals with HF signals) and after looking at the usual suspects like WWV, we came across another one. Ionosondes - they're all over the place, and these days, they're fairly accurately timed (how accurately? I don't know.) Timing wise, since wide band and oblique sounders are popular, they must be fairly well controlled, since the transmitter and receiver are not co-located. A traditional vertical sounder drives the transmitter and receiver off the same clock, so they don't care so much about what time it is. I think these things are designed so they have resolutions in "meters" or "tens of meters" which implies sub microsecond accuracy at worst. There's several kinds: The Oblique/QVI sounder - 100 watts into an omni(-ish) antenna - 2-20 MHz chirp at 100kHz/second, for 180 seconds total sweep. They do the chirp once every 12 minutes. Wide Sweep Backscatter Ionogram (WSBI) sounder 20 kW(!) into a 2 element log periodic curtain pointed in the general direction of an over the horizon radar. 5-28 MHz over 282 seconds, also at a 12 minute cadence. They have some of these in Vieques PR, New Kent VA, and Corpus Christi TX. I would imagine the Australians have some associated with JORN (their OTH radar network). There are plenty of other sounders around, too. There's a USRP implementation of a receiver for various sounders from Juha Vierinen http://www.radio-science.net/2019/04/oblique-ionograms-between-sodankyla-and.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
Jim Thanks for the insights. Oh I am not selling it for emp. I am simply saying no would be general wants a rusty old steel tower as a career booster. I remember when LORAN C was shut down the president said he was saving $36M a year. Thats drop in the old bucket. I also remember the LORAN C antennas on mobile tower sites for timing along with GPS. Thanks again Jim. Fire up that LORAN C receiver and see what you can hear. Regards Paul On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:41 PM jimlux wrote: > On 8/5/20 12:40 PM, Tom Knox wrote: > > Hi Paul and Magnus; > > Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a > ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair. > > The vulnerability of GNSS systems to EMP attacks is not all that high - > GPS is, after all, a DoD essential system, and lives in a ridiculously > high radiation environment in MEO - They're also hard to neutrons (based > on published specs for components in the GNSS satellites). > > In most scenarios, LEO satellites get hammered, MEO and GEO not so much. > > https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531197.pdf > > "GPS and GEO satellites are threatened only by the very high yield (~ 10 > Mt) detonations of our trial set." > > I'll note that the largest the US has detonated in space are the Teak > and Orange shots 3.8Mt (at <100km), and only Starfish Prime (1.4Mt) at > 400km cased significant problems. > > The usual "use case" for EMP is to affect aircraft and ground based > assets, and the burst height is low (so the air around the burst is > denser - more particle interactions = more current = more field) - > conversely, this reduces the flux at 20,000 km (where GPS is) and > 36,000km (GEO) > > Ultimately, it's that your victim is a Long, long ways away from > whatever the phenomenon is. > > I've been doing a lot of analysis on EMI/RFI effects on precision timing > in GEO+1000km - we are looking at bursts from the sun, and timing it > with GNSS satellites. Things that I agonized over (high power shortwave > broadcasters radiating 500kW into a 24dBi curtain array) in my LEO > satellite at 500km just become a non-issue at 37,000 km. Inverse square > law really helps. > > > Anyway, that DTIC report will give you plenty to geek out over. > > > Yes, there would be significant disruption in timing accuracy due to the > ionized particles - I'm not sure if dual frequency would be enough to > compensate. > > > I think alternate timing and nav systems are good idea, but selling it > as "GPS will be knocked out by EMP" isn't going to get you very far. > > > > Cheers; > > > > Tom Knox > > > > act...@hotmail.com > > > > "Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both > MLK and Albert Einstein > > > > > > From: time-nuts on behalf of paul > swed > > Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM > > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement < > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600 > > > > Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed. > > Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA. > > The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an > > alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate > > some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I > > have heard of in Europe. > > But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very > > interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle. > > Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other > > satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or > Space > > Force (Yes thats actually real now). > > Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to > > operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind > > that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites. > > Sorry for that editorial. > > Regards > > Paul > > WB8TSL > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson > wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites? > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Magnus > >> > >> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote: > >>> Hello to fellow time nuts. > >>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the > air > >>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they > have > >>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow. > >>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long > >>> run. Nice. > >>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days > also. > >>> Enjoy. > >>> Paul > >>> WB8TSL > >>> ___ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to > >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >> > >> _
Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
On 8/5/20 12:40 PM, Tom Knox wrote: Hi Paul and Magnus; Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair. The vulnerability of GNSS systems to EMP attacks is not all that high - GPS is, after all, a DoD essential system, and lives in a ridiculously high radiation environment in MEO - They're also hard to neutrons (based on published specs for components in the GNSS satellites). In most scenarios, LEO satellites get hammered, MEO and GEO not so much. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531197.pdf "GPS and GEO satellites are threatened only by the very high yield (~ 10 Mt) detonations of our trial set." I'll note that the largest the US has detonated in space are the Teak and Orange shots 3.8Mt (at <100km), and only Starfish Prime (1.4Mt) at 400km cased significant problems. The usual "use case" for EMP is to affect aircraft and ground based assets, and the burst height is low (so the air around the burst is denser - more particle interactions = more current = more field) - conversely, this reduces the flux at 20,000 km (where GPS is) and 36,000km (GEO) Ultimately, it's that your victim is a Long, long ways away from whatever the phenomenon is. I've been doing a lot of analysis on EMI/RFI effects on precision timing in GEO+1000km - we are looking at bursts from the sun, and timing it with GNSS satellites. Things that I agonized over (high power shortwave broadcasters radiating 500kW into a 24dBi curtain array) in my LEO satellite at 500km just become a non-issue at 37,000 km. Inverse square law really helps. Anyway, that DTIC report will give you plenty to geek out over. Yes, there would be significant disruption in timing accuracy due to the ionized particles - I'm not sure if dual frequency would be enough to compensate. I think alternate timing and nav systems are good idea, but selling it as "GPS will be knocked out by EMP" isn't going to get you very far. Cheers; Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com "Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both MLK and Albert Einstein From: time-nuts on behalf of paul swed Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600 Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed. Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA. The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I have heard of in Europe. But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle. Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space Force (Yes thats actually real now). Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites. Sorry for that editorial. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson wrote: Hi, Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites? Cheers, Magnus On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote: Hello to fellow time nuts. Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow. The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long run. Nice. Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also. Enjoy. Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com a
Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
Hi Paul and Magnus; Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair. Cheers; Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com "Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both MLK and Albert Einstein From: time-nuts on behalf of paul swed Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600 Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed. Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA. The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I have heard of in Europe. But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle. Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space Force (Yes thats actually real now). Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites. Sorry for that editorial. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson wrote: > Hi, > > Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites? > > Cheers, > Magnus > > On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote: > > Hello to fellow time nuts. > > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air > > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have > > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow. > > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long > > run. Nice. > > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also. > > Enjoy. > > Paul > > WB8TSL > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] "The Penultimate HP5065 A15"
Luciano, I agree entirely! I like the motto "do no harm"! When I try a mod such as replacing the dead op amp on the A9 board. I make before and after tests to make sure no degradation has occurred. Since this means parts in 10 -14th AD at 128 Seconds most don't have the capability. However a lot of Time-nuts can test in mid parts in 10-13th from 1 to 100 Seconds so can at least compare that part of the performance. Mods like HP made to move the bridge rectifier from A15 to the chassis can be made without such testing. That said a replacement A15 card to replace a 'Crispy crittered" or badly damaged one would be welcome. Cheers, Corby ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed. Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA. The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I have heard of in Europe. But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle. Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space Force (Yes thats actually real now). Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites. Sorry for that editorial. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson wrote: > Hi, > > Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites? > > Cheers, > Magnus > > On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote: > > Hello to fellow time nuts. > > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air > > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have > > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow. > > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long > > run. Nice. > > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also. > > Enjoy. > > Paul > > WB8TSL > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
Hi, Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites? Cheers, Magnus On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote: > Hello to fellow time nuts. > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow. > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long > run. Nice. > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also. > Enjoy. > Paul > WB8TSL > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
Hello to fellow time nuts. Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow. The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long run. Nice. Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also. Enjoy. Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] "The Penultimate HP5065 A15"
Hi > On Aug 5, 2020, at 2:55 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: > > > I would like to share with you my thoughts on two important points that > concern a little all attempts to modify and upgrade the equipment. > > In general I am very reluctant to modify both the electrically and > mechanically, in this case, the HP5065A. Modifying, even completely a board, > I agree if there is a significant improvement, trying to use the existing > pinout and, in the need for additional connection points, use additional > connectors on the board. As regards the space on the pcb, smd components can > be used whenever possible or doughter boards. Indeed this has been the debate on a *lot* of equipment as it gets old enough to be considered an antique. Do you preserve it in original condition or do you keep it running ( or flying ….). Needless to say, there is a lot of debate about this. > > Remove boards, transformers or anything else I find reluctant, I would > prefer to have the possibility of being able to go back to the original > configuration if necessary. > The area occupied by the optional batteries, which I think almost nobody > uses, can be used for new electronics. > > Using a switching power supply with better performance I agree and since > there is already a dedicated DC input on the back of the 5065A I would prefer > to use the one to connect to an external box that contains the new power > supply and the management of a backup DC input. This eliminates the need to > dismantle anything inside the HP5065A. If you look at the heat generated ( = wasted) running modern <= 3.3V supply parts off of the 20V bus, multiple switchers start to look very attractive. Bringing all that in from “outside” probably isn’t the best / safest way to do it. Using some of the “open space” for a set of supplies is probably a better idea. > > Another important point is that of the certainty of the results of a > change. I mean that most hobbyists who have a 5065A, including me, do not > have the opportunity to measure the proposed improvement effects, first of > all because they do not have a reference such as an HMaser available, nor > even such a refined measuring system to appreciate the improvements made. I > want to remember that between zero and 8kseconds the GPS system (e.g. HP > GPSDO) in our laboratories has an Adev higher than that of the HP5065A and > therefore the measure we do in that range is that of GPS, not that of > rubidium. The most common solution to this is to use multiple reference sources. Finding OCXO’s that are better than a 5065 at 0.1 to 10 seconds is possible in a hobby environment. As mods are done, this is a pretty critical region to examine. A DMTD isn’t a super exotic piece of gear anymore. There are a lot of them in basements. A single mixer setup (which is even easier to build) is quite adequate for a 5065 <-> OCXO comparison. A triple channel setup (still in range for a basement project) would let you do a three corner hat. (with some range to it). If you have a three corner hat setup, the OCXO’s likely can be useful to 100 seconds. Past that a couple of fairly good telecom Rb’s could get you a bit further. There is also the possibility of running more than one 5065 … Not all parameters on the 5065 are at “near noise floor” levels. The close in ( < 20 Hz offset) phase noise is not all that great. One does not need a -170 dbc / Hz floor sort of setup to check it out. As tweaks are done, noise in this region *is* of interest. Comparison against a pretty normal OCXO would be “good enough” in this case as well. Bob > > For this reason I invite all those who dedicate themselves to these very > interesting changes proposed to test the results obtained in depth and to > share them with us with numerical and graphic elements. I take this > opportunity to thank them in advance for their scientific help. > > I want to specify that this is my point of view, it is not a rule and not > necessarily shared by other people. > > thankyou , Luciano > > Luciano P. S. Paramithiotti > tim...@timeok.it > www.timeok.it > > Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com > A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > time-nuts@lists.febo.com > Cc > Data Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:32:31 -0400 > Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] "The Penultimate HP5065 A15" > Hi > > If a more extensive rebuild is in the works ….. > > +/-20V is (as has been observed) not an ideal voltage for “modern” > electronics. > If you dig into each of the boards, there is a lot of “drop it down right > now” regulation > done on a board by board basis. More or less what might be there: > > A1 Synth > A2 Battery Charger > A3 60 MHz multiplier > A4 100 KHz divider > A5 Digital Divider (= clock) > A6 1 MHz divider > A7 AC amplifier > A8 Phase detector > A9 Integrator > A10 OCXO > A11 Rb temp control > A12 Rb assembly >
Re: [time-nuts] "The Penultimate HP5065 A15"
10 years ago I started a project to try to improve on the 5065A by buying an Optical Unit in Europe and only use the temperature control boards. Temperature control with a fan and aging with a DAC based on 20 year experience with my FRK. Age, move and Macular hole in the left eye ended that project. Maybe do a coordinated redesign that is done by multiple members with as the final step being taking the Optical Unit and transfer it to the new chassis is an option. On the present unit if noise is a goal there are multiple HP 10811 with varying performance out there and why not bring out the 10 MHz with an amp. Has been done. Or an other OCXO? Our answer is a clean up loop with an external OCXO. Have good results. With the outstanding performance of my HP5065A the policy is hands off, do not even touch the C field dial in order to get aging data. Past tests have shown that after changing C field it takes time to settle. Bert Kehren Palm City Florida In a message dated 8/5/2020 5:56:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, tim...@timeok.it writes: I would like to share with you my thoughts on two important points that concern a little all attempts to modify and upgrade the equipment. In general I am very reluctant to modify both the electrically and mechanically, in this case, the HP5065A. Modifying, even completely a board, I agree if there is a significant improvement, trying to use the existing pinout and, in the need for additional connection points, use additional connectors on the board. As regards the space on the pcb, smd components can be used whenever possible or doughter boards. Remove boards, transformers or anything else I find reluctant, I would prefer to have the possibility of being able to go back to the original configuration if necessary. The area occupied by the optional batteries, which I think almost nobody uses, can be used for new electronics. Using a switching power supply with better performance I agree and since there is already a dedicated DC input on the back of the 5065A I would prefer to use the one to connect to an external box that contains the new power supply and the management of a backup DC input. This eliminates the need to dismantle anything inside the HP5065A. Another important point is that of the certainty of the results of a change. I mean that most hobbyists who have a 5065A, including me, do not have the opportunity to measure the proposed improvement effects, first of all because they do not have a reference such as an HMaser available, nor even such a refined measuring system to appreciate the improvements made. I want to remember that between zero and 8kseconds the GPS system (e.g. HP GPSDO) in our laboratories has an Adev higher than that of the HP5065A and therefore the measure we do in that range is that of GPS, not that of rubidium. For this reason I invite all those who dedicate themselves to these very interesting changes proposed to test the results obtained in depth and to share them with us with numerical and graphic elements. I take this opportunity to thank them in advance for their scientific help. I want to specify that this is my point of view, it is not a rule and not necessarily shared by other people. thankyou , Luciano Luciano P. S. Paramithiotti tim...@timeok.it www.timeok.it Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@lists.febo.com Cc Data Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:32:31 -0400 Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] "The Penultimate HP5065 A15" Hi If a more extensive rebuild is in the works ….. +/-20V is (as has been observed) not an ideal voltage for “modern” electronics. If you dig into each of the boards, there is a lot of “drop it down right now” regulation done on a board by board basis. More or less what might be there: A1 Synth A2 Battery Charger A3 60 MHz multiplier A4 100 KHz divider A5 Digital Divider (= clock) A6 1 MHz divider A7 AC amplifier A8 Phase detector A9 Integrator A10 OCXO A11 Rb temp control A12 Rb assembly A13 5 MHz buffer A14 Logic A15 Power supply A16 Power for clock A17 Terminal board A18 Jumpers ( = alt for A2) A19 Led Clock board For most uses, A4,A5,A6,A16,and A19 are not required. A2 is just a pair of diodes (A18) rather than a battery charger. A17 is more part of the wiring harness than anything else. Looking at what’s left: A1 synth, this seems to be a target for various replacement schemes. Right now, it has a bunch of positive voltage rails with some circuits running on 20V. Replacement likely would run on <= +12. A3 Multiplier. Again a target for replacement in some schemes. Same supply as A1 for replacement. Existing design runs +20 direct to a lot of circuits. A7 AC amplifier. Now runs +/-20V. Pretty much begs for a modern op-amp based replacement board. +/-12 probably is fine for that board. A *good* -15 would work for the existing board
Re: [time-nuts] "The Penultimate HP5065 A15"
tim...@timeok.it writes: > Another important point is that of the certainty of the results > of a change. I mean that most hobbyists who have a 5065A, including > me, do not have the opportunity to measure the proposed improvement > effects, first of all because they do not have a reference such as > an HMaser available, nor even such a refined measuring system to > appreciate the improvements made. Well, this depends exactly what you mean by "measure". There is a big difference in being able to measure, with proper uncertainty intervals, that "A is 7.2% better than B", and merely measuring that "A is better than B (by some unknown amount)" Let me give you a concrete example: I am not kitted out for measuring close-in phase-noise. But if I feed two signals of *very* close frequency to my HP5370, hit "TI", "SAMP=100", and "STDDEV", then it shows me a number which correlates strongly with close-in phase-noise. If after modifying one of the two signal sources, that number drops, I have solid evidence of an improvement in close-in phase-noise. Mind you, I could have improved the phase-noise a LOT, and still see the same number, if the phase-noise of the other source dominated. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] "The Penultimate HP5065 A15"
I would like to share with you my thoughts on two important points that concern a little all attempts to modify and upgrade the equipment. In general I am very reluctant to modify both the electrically and mechanically, in this case, the HP5065A. Modifying, even completely a board, I agree if there is a significant improvement, trying to use the existing pinout and, in the need for additional connection points, use additional connectors on the board. As regards the space on the pcb, smd components can be used whenever possible or doughter boards. Remove boards, transformers or anything else I find reluctant, I would prefer to have the possibility of being able to go back to the original configuration if necessary. The area occupied by the optional batteries, which I think almost nobody uses, can be used for new electronics. Using a switching power supply with better performance I agree and since there is already a dedicated DC input on the back of the 5065A I would prefer to use the one to connect to an external box that contains the new power supply and the management of a backup DC input. This eliminates the need to dismantle anything inside the HP5065A. Another important point is that of the certainty of the results of a change. I mean that most hobbyists who have a 5065A, including me, do not have the opportunity to measure the proposed improvement effects, first of all because they do not have a reference such as an HMaser available, nor even such a refined measuring system to appreciate the improvements made. I want to remember that between zero and 8kseconds the GPS system (e.g. HP GPSDO) in our laboratories has an Adev higher than that of the HP5065A and therefore the measure we do in that range is that of GPS, not that of rubidium. For this reason I invite all those who dedicate themselves to these very interesting changes proposed to test the results obtained in depth and to share them with us with numerical and graphic elements. I take this opportunity to thank them in advance for their scientific help. I want to specify that this is my point of view, it is not a rule and not necessarily shared by other people. thankyou , Luciano Luciano P. S. Paramithiotti tim...@timeok.it www.timeok.it Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@lists.febo.com Cc Data Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:32:31 -0400 Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] "The Penultimate HP5065 A15" Hi If a more extensive rebuild is in the works ….. +/-20V is (as has been observed) not an ideal voltage for “modern” electronics. If you dig into each of the boards, there is a lot of “drop it down right now” regulation done on a board by board basis. More or less what might be there: A1 Synth A2 Battery Charger A3 60 MHz multiplier A4 100 KHz divider A5 Digital Divider (= clock) A6 1 MHz divider A7 AC amplifier A8 Phase detector A9 Integrator A10 OCXO A11 Rb temp control A12 Rb assembly A13 5 MHz buffer A14 Logic A15 Power supply A16 Power for clock A17 Terminal board A18 Jumpers ( = alt for A2) A19 Led Clock board For most uses, A4,A5,A6,A16,and A19 are not required. A2 is just a pair of diodes (A18) rather than a battery charger. A17 is more part of the wiring harness than anything else. Looking at what’s left: A1 synth, this seems to be a target for various replacement schemes. Right now, it has a bunch of positive voltage rails with some circuits running on 20V. Replacement likely would run on <= +12. A3 Multiplier. Again a target for replacement in some schemes. Same supply as A1 for replacement. Existing design runs +20 direct to a lot of circuits. A7 AC amplifier. Now runs +/-20V. Pretty much begs for a modern op-amp based replacement board. +/-12 probably is fine for that board. A *good* -15 would work for the existing board with minor mods. A8 Phase detector. Replacement probably is all digital. Now runs +20V A9 Later version of the board runs +/-15. Probably would work fine a good +/-12 with minor mods A10 If it’s a 10811, it’s going to need > +18 for the heater and +12 for the OCXO. There are other “at least as good” parts that work fine on +12. A11 Unless you want to redo the heater windings on A12, you are stuck with +20 to +30V. Rest of the board sort of begs for a modern op-amp approach. A12 Lamp assembly is the only load (other than heater windings and C field). It does run on +20V. A13 +20V taken to +9 for everything on the board. Simple mod to run on +12 (or +15 or +10 …). Replacement likely runs on +12 A14 If the upstream boards get changed, this likely does as well. Sort of begs for a $1 MCU and a handful of resistors as a replacement. A15 ( the topic of discussion) So, there are two “customers” for -20V. Both would be happy
