Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
Lots of questions. The d-psk-r is intended to be just after the receive preamp. So the signal is something like 30-100uv or -90 to -70dbm region. If you are creating a modulator then yes -3 to-7dbm would be right. But its the current through the diodes that control distortion. At -70 you don't need a lot of current. You simply want them conducting solidly. There is some loss through the flipper. My clearly written notes (Not) are -3db in, 400 mv out. For my use I was hitting a 50 db attenuator so it didn't matter. .sch is the free expresspcb software. Easy to use for me at least. But there are plenty out there today. I am sure there are better. I tinkered with KiCAD thats a whole new world. But its time... With respect to the 7474 yes it synchronizes the flip point. But here is teh tricky part that I ran into. I have a really great SRS DS345 sig gen. It has trigger out and sine out at the same time. Trigger is a nice ttl signal. But as I discovered 4 us late. Thats pretty large at 60 KHz. So I added a monostable to delay it to the falling edge of the sine wave some 7.025 us. Now it does a good job of flipping at 0. So for most others that wouldn't have a nice generator like the SRS I can think of several approaches. Take a 60 KHz square wave TTL run it to the clock on the flip flop. Take that same 60 KHz and bandpass or low pass filter it to a sine wave. But that process will add delay. Going the other way. Sine wave to flipper square it up with a comparator to TTL. I will bet you get the same silly delay I get. Thats life. There are all sorts of possible BPSK modulators out there cmos analog gates and such. They just seemed messy because you have to bias the analog gates to 50% of the supply. Also a pure gate approach followed by a low pass filter. It goes on and on. Regards Paul On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 6:48 PM wrote: > Paul, > > You message came in just as I clicked Send on my message. If I change > the MC34151 to a 7474 to synchronize the 60 kHz signal, does that mean > the phase change always occurs on the zero crossing like WWVB? > > Ray > > Original Message > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions > From: paul swed > Date: Wed, August 19, 2020 1:15 pm > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > > Alright Ray we can gang up on you with two of us. > By the way with respect to a BPSK modulator as mentioned I did just did > that and without any special driver chip. I used a ttl 7474 to > synchronize > the 60 KHz reference to the incoming data. > Data in to D and 60 KHz to C, Q and QNot to 180 ohm R to drive the > diodes. > Most likely this could go to 90 ohms and perhaps allow 0 dbm in or > higher. > But did not need that level as I needed to drop to at least -50 db for > the > KD2BD receiver I am working on. > The reason to use the driver chip in the d-psk-r is with the higher > voltage > I can get more driver port isolation. > Regards > Paul. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
Paul and Rodger, I used the actual transformer, YCL 20F001NG, and 1N4148 diodes like the schematic shows. I isolated the grounds on the mixer because Rodger had a note in the document saying he was picking up noise. I experimented with the 60 kHz drive level and increased it to 285 mV Pk-Pk, which is about -7 dBm. I also put a 50 ohm load between pins 1 and 3. I now see the sine wave on pin 1. But should it require that amount of drive into the RF port? What level of signal do you have coming out of your preamp circuits to the mixer? If you have -7dBm that means your preamp has about 60 dB of gain assuming a WWVB signal of 100 uV. I used 620 ohm resistors to drive the MC34151 pins 10 and 15 which should be plenty of drive. If I do a 5 second capture of the output from pin 1, I see the phase reversals. The reversals are not always on the zero crossing point of the wave. That is probably because of no phase coherence between the input signal and the phase flips as Rodger said. The signal is also no longer a sine wave but I believe that is due to the limited memory in my scope. It is an old Tektronix TDS 2014B. I really need to buy something more modern. This project may be an excuse to do so. Paul, what program did you use for the new attached schematic? It has a .sch extension. I don't know what board program you used. Is it possible to print the schematic to a PDF and attach it to your next message? Ray Original Message Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions From: paul swed Date: Wed, August 19, 2020 7:08 am To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Hi Ray yes actually a sine wave out. So something is wrong. Are you actually using a mixer or the transformers and diodes I suggested? Including a schematic that I believe is easier to read than the original from 2015. Note that the diodes are floating and that each side actually goes to an active driver. There is always current going through the diodes. Either forward or reverse. Other possibility your over driving the flipper. I just built one up to actually create the BPSK signal. Found that it needed to stay below -8dbm otherwise it would distort. But increasing the current allowed me to go to -3dbm. Regards Paul On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 3:49 AM wrote: > Paul, > > Yes, I built the d-psk-r per the schematic. However, I think I did not > understand how it actually worked. I was expecting it to be able to > duplicate the WWVB sine wave signal with the phase reversal present when > the PM data bit changed from a 0 to 1 or 1 to 0. I have a 60 kHz sine > wave going into pin 8 of the mixer transformer. I expected to see a sine > wave out of pin 1. > > However, I looked at the code again and it appears the "LO" port of the > mixer is only driven one per second. There is no steady drive to the > "LO" port so there cannot be a sine wave out of the "IF" port. Is that > correct? > > Or should there actually be a 60 kHz sine wave coming out of pin 1 on > the mixer? If so, something is wrong with my d-psk-r. I am not trying to > use it with any kind of receiver. I just want to see the sine wave on my > scope. > > Ray, > AB7HE > > Original Message > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions > From: paul swed > Date: Tue, August 18, 2020 12:19 pm > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > > Ray I would tend to agree but I actually am unclear on the context. > Did you actually build a d-psk-r? > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
Paul, You message came in just as I clicked Send on my message. If I change the MC34151 to a 7474 to synchronize the 60 kHz signal, does that mean the phase change always occurs on the zero crossing like WWVB? Ray Original Message Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions From: paul swed Date: Wed, August 19, 2020 1:15 pm To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Alright Ray we can gang up on you with two of us. By the way with respect to a BPSK modulator as mentioned I did just did that and without any special driver chip. I used a ttl 7474 to synchronize the 60 KHz reference to the incoming data. Data in to D and 60 KHz to C, Q and QNot to 180 ohm R to drive the diodes. Most likely this could go to 90 ohms and perhaps allow 0 dbm in or higher. But did not need that level as I needed to drop to at least -50 db for the KD2BD receiver I am working on. The reason to use the driver chip in the d-psk-r is with the higher voltage I can get more driver port isolation. Regards Paul. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
Alright Ray we can gang up on you with two of us. By the way with respect to a BPSK modulator as mentioned I did just did that and without any special driver chip. I used a ttl 7474 to synchronize the 60 KHz reference to the incoming data. Data in to D and 60 KHz to C, Q and QNot to 180 ohm R to drive the diodes. Most likely this could go to 90 ohms and perhaps allow 0 dbm in or higher. But did not need that level as I needed to drop to at least -50 db for the KD2BD receiver I am working on. The reason to use the driver chip in the d-psk-r is with the higher voltage I can get more driver port isolation. Regards Paul. On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 11:40 AM Rodger via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > Ray, > > I'll answer your question as I've done this. The d-psk-r's intended use is > to remove the bpsk from the WWVB carrier for the purpose of allowing older > WWVB receivers to recover phase info from the carrier and it works very > well > for that purpose. But, it can also be used, as you are trying to do, to > generate "something similar" to the WWVB BPSK signal by feeding it 60 khz > and letting the mixer do the phase modulation. I've done it, and it works. > But there would certainly be some differences between that signal and the > "real" WWVB BPSK. For one, the real WWVB signal has phase coherence > between > the 60 khz and the timing of the phase flips. You won't get that with the > d-psk-r as it's not necessary for it's intended purpose. Obviously WWVB > also has the AM component too so that would be missing if using the d-psk-r > to modulate a carrier. > > But depending on your intended use, I see no reason that using the d-psk-r > as a "re-psk-r" shouldn't work just fine. > > If you're putting a sine wave in to the mixer on pin 8, you should be > seeing > a sine wave out on pin 1. It's as simple as that. And that sine wave > should shift 180 degrees (invert polarity) if you flip the polarity of the > bias on pins 10 and 15. If you don't have any DC bias on pins 10/15 I'm > not > sure how much signal would pass through the transformers though I don't > think it would be much as neither pair of diodes would be conducting. > > Good luck, > > Rodger > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts On Behalf Of > rcb...@atcelectronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 2:20 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions > > Paul, > > Yes, I built the d-psk-r per the schematic. However, I think I did not > understand how it actually worked. I was expecting it to be able to > duplicate the WWVB sine wave signal with the phase reversal present when > the > PM data bit changed from a 0 to 1 or 1 to 0. I have a 60 kHz sine wave > going > into pin 8 of the mixer transformer. I expected to see a sine wave out of > pin 1. > > However, I looked at the code again and it appears the "LO" port of the > mixer is only driven one per second. There is no steady drive to the "LO" > port so there cannot be a sine wave out of the "IF" port. Is that correct? > > Or should there actually be a 60 kHz sine wave coming out of pin 1 on the > mixer? If so, something is wrong with my d-psk-r. I am not trying to use it > with any kind of receiver. I just want to see the sine wave on my scope. > > Ray, > AB7HE > > Original Message > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions > From: paul swed > Date: Tue, August 18, 2020 12:19 pm > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > > Ray I would tend to agree but I actually am unclear on the context. > Did you actually build a d-psk-r? > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
Ray, I'll answer your question as I've done this. The d-psk-r's intended use is to remove the bpsk from the WWVB carrier for the purpose of allowing older WWVB receivers to recover phase info from the carrier and it works very well for that purpose. But, it can also be used, as you are trying to do, to generate "something similar" to the WWVB BPSK signal by feeding it 60 khz and letting the mixer do the phase modulation. I've done it, and it works. But there would certainly be some differences between that signal and the "real" WWVB BPSK. For one, the real WWVB signal has phase coherence between the 60 khz and the timing of the phase flips. You won't get that with the d-psk-r as it's not necessary for it's intended purpose. Obviously WWVB also has the AM component too so that would be missing if using the d-psk-r to modulate a carrier. But depending on your intended use, I see no reason that using the d-psk-r as a "re-psk-r" shouldn't work just fine. If you're putting a sine wave in to the mixer on pin 8, you should be seeing a sine wave out on pin 1. It's as simple as that. And that sine wave should shift 180 degrees (invert polarity) if you flip the polarity of the bias on pins 10 and 15. If you don't have any DC bias on pins 10/15 I'm not sure how much signal would pass through the transformers though I don't think it would be much as neither pair of diodes would be conducting. Good luck, Rodger -Original Message- From: time-nuts On Behalf Of rcb...@atcelectronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 2:20 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions Paul, Yes, I built the d-psk-r per the schematic. However, I think I did not understand how it actually worked. I was expecting it to be able to duplicate the WWVB sine wave signal with the phase reversal present when the PM data bit changed from a 0 to 1 or 1 to 0. I have a 60 kHz sine wave going into pin 8 of the mixer transformer. I expected to see a sine wave out of pin 1. However, I looked at the code again and it appears the "LO" port of the mixer is only driven one per second. There is no steady drive to the "LO" port so there cannot be a sine wave out of the "IF" port. Is that correct? Or should there actually be a 60 kHz sine wave coming out of pin 1 on the mixer? If so, something is wrong with my d-psk-r. I am not trying to use it with any kind of receiver. I just want to see the sine wave on my scope. Ray, AB7HE Original Message Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions From: paul swed Date: Tue, August 18, 2020 12:19 pm To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Ray I would tend to agree but I actually am unclear on the context. Did you actually build a d-psk-r? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
Hi Ray yes actually a sine wave out. So something is wrong. Are you actually using a mixer or the transformers and diodes I suggested? Including a schematic that I believe is easier to read than the original from 2015. Note that the diodes are floating and that each side actually goes to an active driver. There is always current going through the diodes. Either forward or reverse. Other possibility your over driving the flipper. I just built one up to actually create the BPSK signal. Found that it needed to stay below -8dbm otherwise it would distort. But increasing the current allowed me to go to -3dbm. Regards Paul On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 3:49 AM wrote: > Paul, > > Yes, I built the d-psk-r per the schematic. However, I think I did not > understand how it actually worked. I was expecting it to be able to > duplicate the WWVB sine wave signal with the phase reversal present when > the PM data bit changed from a 0 to 1 or 1 to 0. I have a 60 kHz sine > wave going into pin 8 of the mixer transformer. I expected to see a sine > wave out of pin 1. > > However, I looked at the code again and it appears the "LO" port of the > mixer is only driven one per second. There is no steady drive to the > "LO" port so there cannot be a sine wave out of the "IF" port. Is that > correct? > > Or should there actually be a 60 kHz sine wave coming out of pin 1 on > the mixer? If so, something is wrong with my d-psk-r. I am not trying to > use it with any kind of receiver. I just want to see the sine wave on my > scope. > > Ray, > AB7HE > > Original Message > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions > From: paul swed > Date: Tue, August 18, 2020 12:19 pm > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > > Ray I would tend to agree but I actually am unclear on the context. > Did you actually build a d-psk-r? > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > wwvb gps d-psk-r 05022020.sch Description: Binary data ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions
Paul, Yes, I built the d-psk-r per the schematic. However, I think I did not understand how it actually worked. I was expecting it to be able to duplicate the WWVB sine wave signal with the phase reversal present when the PM data bit changed from a 0 to 1 or 1 to 0. I have a 60 kHz sine wave going into pin 8 of the mixer transformer. I expected to see a sine wave out of pin 1. However, I looked at the code again and it appears the "LO" port of the mixer is only driven one per second. There is no steady drive to the "LO" port so there cannot be a sine wave out of the "IF" port. Is that correct? Or should there actually be a 60 kHz sine wave coming out of pin 1 on the mixer? If so, something is wrong with my d-psk-r. I am not trying to use it with any kind of receiver. I just want to see the sine wave on my scope. Ray, AB7HE Original Message Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB PM Time Questions From: paul swed Date: Tue, August 18, 2020 12:19 pm To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Ray I would tend to agree but I actually am unclear on the context. Did you actually build a d-psk-r? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
