Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL FA1 frequency analyzer

[Christoph Kopetzky]

Hi Anders,

thank you for providing your graphics. Very interesting.
I will put my results to my github repository if done.  Right now I have 
to take a break for my surgery.


best regards

Chris
---
'Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.' -- Albert 
Einstein

Am 06.09.2019 um 12:02 schrieb Anders Wallin:

If I am able to connect TimeLab with my FCA3103 in the future I also
want to compare this TIC with the
FA1 and TSA3011. Also important would be the fact whether the 'cheaper'
versions could be used to measure phase
noise as the TimePod 5330A or the PhaseStation 53100A devices and how
'low' they are going to do the job...


FWIW phase-noise floors with: FSW8, 3120A, and 5115A: ( USRP B210 @ 100 MHz
is also done, to be added..)
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/phase_noise_WR.png
if you make some repo (github?) for these measurements and noise-floors
then I can try to dig out the old data and contribute.

53230A adev-floors
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Keysight_53230A_noise_floor.png
and RCON mode:
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/RCON_vs_CONT.png

Anders
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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL FA1 frequency analyzer

[Anders Wallin]

> If I am able to connect TimeLab with my FCA3103 in the future I also
> want to compare this TIC with the
> FA1 and TSA3011. Also important would be the fact whether the 'cheaper'
> versions could be used to measure phase
> noise as the TimePod 5330A or the PhaseStation 53100A devices and how
> 'low' they are going to do the job...
>

FWIW phase-noise floors with: FSW8, 3120A, and 5115A: ( USRP B210 @ 100 MHz
is also done, to be added..)
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/phase_noise_WR.png
if you make some repo (github?) for these measurements and noise-floors
then I can try to dig out the old data and contribute.

53230A adev-floors
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Keysight_53230A_noise_floor.png
and RCON mode:
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/RCON_vs_CONT.png

Anders
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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL FA1 frequency analyzer

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The gotcha with doing ADEV on any of these devices is that they are all to 
noisy to get the job
done at 1 second on a fairly normal OCXO. You have to get out around into the 
10’s or possibly
100’s of seconds range to get past the noise floor of the measuring device. To 
work out where the
intercept is, you need a full graph of the devices noise floor vs tau done in 
the “language” of the
measurement you are running. ( = the floor may change depending on the 
measurement used).

If you indeed want to do a quick and simple measurement that goes into 1 Hz ( 
or possibly less) 
the answer is to use a mixer based setup. A single mixer setup ( half of a 
DMTD) will do a much 
better job than a counter based approach. Cost wise it is not very expensive at 
all …

Bob

> On Sep 5, 2019, at 12:12 AM, Christoph Kopetzky  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> I fully agree to your explanation. But I primarily want to see in the compare 
> e.g. the ADEV noise floor of the devices
> with TimeLab or the different compared graphs for one OCXO measured with the 
> FA1, TSA3011.
> If I am able to connect TimeLab with my FCA3103 in the future I also want to 
> compare this TIC with the
> FA1 and TSA3011. Also important would be the fact whether the 'cheaper' 
> versions could be used to measure phase
> noise as the TimePod 5330A or the PhaseStation 53100A devices and how 'low' 
> they are going to do the job...
> 
> These facts would be a great help for time-nuts and hobbyists for a buying 
> decision where the measurement  requirements
> are not so high or a compromise to the technical circumstances of the 
> 'measurements' they are doing.
> 
> The modern requirements of good lab equipment are not always the ability to 
> measure as exact as technical possible because
> higher exactness of the measurement needs horrendous extra expenses for 
> little advantages.
> 
> Important requirements are what I think a good price/performance ratio which 
> allows also good technical measuring results without
> the need to spent several thousands of euros/dollars for the equipment. This 
> is no longer impossible I think.
> The power requirement is also a good point of the new lab devices...
> 
> I also wish to have a high level frequency and timing source as my lab 
> standard as a good caesium clock but I think
> a Trimble Thunderbolt disciplining a good rubidium standard as the SRS PRS10 
> surely does a good job and does not
> consume a lot of power as a HP 5071A caesium source.
> 
> The 'cheap' TIC's as the FA1 and TSA3011 are little boxes which can be 
> connected to the usually available lab computer or tablet
> is a great enhancement because expensive GPIB cables, cards or adapter are no 
> longer needed and the whole equipment will be
> more portable.
> For my point of view these facts are very important and the reallocated space 
> in the lab can can be used for other things :)
> 
> (Sorry for the longer post)
> 
> best regards
> 
> Chris
> ---
> 'Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.' -- Albert 
> Einstein
> 
> Am 04.09.2019 um 19:09 schrieb Bob kb8tq:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Assuming Mark’s data is at 10 MHz and 1 second then 0.0002 Hz is 20 ppt. 
>> That number
>> can be compared directly against data presented for a variety of other 
>> devices. By far the
>> best way to do the comparison would be to take data over a range of tau’s 
>> and look at the
>> resulting plot. That way you can be reasonably sure that there isn’t 
>> something weird going on
>> at one or another tau.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Sep 4, 2019, at 1:07 AM, Christoph Kopetzky  wrote:
>>> 
>>> This would be an interesting compare.
>>> I want to compare the FA1 and the TSA3011 if I am back in office and have 
>>> both in my hands...
>>> But I really do not want to buy unnecessary tools...  So if someone has 
>>> done this it would be nice to read about that.
>>> 
>>> Mark, do you have also a TICC?
>>> 
>>> best regards
>>> 
>>> Chris
>>> ---
>>> 'Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.' -- 
>>> Albert Einstein
>>> 
>>> Am 03.09.2019 um 21:21 schrieb Jerry Hancock:
 How would this compare to the TAPR TICC Rev D? The one that has the 
 arduino base?  About half the price I see.
 
 Regards,
 
 Jerry
 
 
> On Sep 2, 2019, at 5:50 AM, Christoph Kopetzky  > wrote:
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> interesting post.
> So is the FA1 compatible with the TimeLab or Stable32 software?
> And could I do phase noise measurements with it like the TimePod?
> 
> 
> Chris
> 
> Am 30.08.2019 um 22:57 schrieb Mark Sims:
>> (Hopefully this is not a duplicate post...  hotmail has been having 
>> issues)
>> 
>> The FA1 is a small, USB powered frequency counter.   You supply it with 
>> a 10 MHz reference and an input frequency of 1 .. 80 MHz.   It outputs a 
>> text string of the measured frequency every second.  They cost around 
>>

Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL FA1 frequency analyzer

[Christoph Kopetzky]

Hi Bob,

I fully agree to your explanation. But I primarily want to see in the 
compare e.g. the ADEV noise floor of the devices
with TimeLab or the different compared graphs for one OCXO measured with 
the FA1, TSA3011.
If I am able to connect TimeLab with my FCA3103 in the future I also 
want to compare this TIC with the
FA1 and TSA3011. Also important would be the fact whether the 'cheaper' 
versions could be used to measure phase
noise as the TimePod 5330A or the PhaseStation 53100A devices and how 
'low' they are going to do the job...


These facts would be a great help for time-nuts and hobbyists for a 
buying decision where the measurement  requirements
are not so high or a compromise to the technical circumstances of the 
'measurements' they are doing.


The modern requirements of good lab equipment are not always the ability 
to measure as exact as technical possible because
higher exactness of the measurement needs horrendous extra expenses for 
little advantages.


Important requirements are what I think a good price/performance ratio 
which allows also good technical measuring results without
the need to spent several thousands of euros/dollars for the equipment. 
This is no longer impossible I think.

The power requirement is also a good point of the new lab devices...

I also wish to have a high level frequency and timing source as my lab 
standard as a good caesium clock but I think
a Trimble Thunderbolt disciplining a good rubidium standard as the SRS 
PRS10 surely does a good job and does not

consume a lot of power as a HP 5071A caesium source.

The 'cheap' TIC's as the FA1 and TSA3011 are little boxes which can be 
connected to the usually available lab computer or tablet
is a great enhancement because expensive GPIB cables, cards or adapter 
are no longer needed and the whole equipment will be

more portable.
For my point of view these facts are very important and the reallocated 
space in the lab can can be used for other things :)


(Sorry for the longer post)

best regards

Chris
---
'Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.' -- Albert 
Einstein

Am 04.09.2019 um 19:09 schrieb Bob kb8tq:

Hi

Assuming Mark’s data is at 10 MHz and 1 second then 0.0002 Hz is 20 ppt. That 
number
can be compared directly against data presented for a variety of other devices. 
By far the
best way to do the comparison would be to take data over a range of tau’s and 
look at the
resulting plot. That way you can be reasonably sure that there isn’t something 
weird going on
at one or another tau.

Bob


On Sep 4, 2019, at 1:07 AM, Christoph Kopetzky  wrote:

This would be an interesting compare.
I want to compare the FA1 and the TSA3011 if I am back in office and have both 
in my hands...
But I really do not want to buy unnecessary tools...  So if someone has done 
this it would be nice to read about that.

Mark, do you have also a TICC?

best regards

Chris
---
'Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.' -- Albert 
Einstein

Am 03.09.2019 um 21:21 schrieb Jerry Hancock:

How would this compare to the TAPR TICC Rev D? The one that has the arduino 
base?  About half the price I see.

Regards,

Jerry



On Sep 2, 2019, at 5:50 AM, Christoph Kopetzky mailto:c...@cksd.de>> wrote:

Hi Mark,

interesting post.
So is the FA1 compatible with the TimeLab or Stable32 software?
And could I do phase noise measurements with it like the TimePod?


Chris

Am 30.08.2019 um 22:57 schrieb Mark Sims:

(Hopefully this is not a duplicate post...  hotmail has been having issues)

The FA1 is a small, USB powered frequency counter.   You supply it with a 10 
MHz reference and an input frequency of 1 .. 80 MHz.   It outputs a text string 
of the measured frequency every second.  They cost around $80 .. $120.

Apparently there is a PLL inside... the text string has a "PLL unlock" flag.  
There is no info on how it works and I have not opened mine up.

I did a simple noise test on one where the input and ref clocks were from a 
Tbolt.  It looks like the measurement noise is around +/- 0.0002 Hz.

Lady Heather can now read it.  Attached is a screen capture of the noise test.

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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL FA1 frequency analyzer

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Assuming Mark’s data is at 10 MHz and 1 second then 0.0002 Hz is 20 ppt. That 
number
can be compared directly against data presented for a variety of other devices. 
By far the
best way to do the comparison would be to take data over a range of tau’s and 
look at the
resulting plot. That way you can be reasonably sure that there isn’t something 
weird going on
at one or another tau. 

Bob

> On Sep 4, 2019, at 1:07 AM, Christoph Kopetzky  wrote:
> 
> This would be an interesting compare.
> I want to compare the FA1 and the TSA3011 if I am back in office and have 
> both in my hands...
> But I really do not want to buy unnecessary tools...  So if someone has done 
> this it would be nice to read about that.
> 
> Mark, do you have also a TICC?
> 
> best regards
> 
> Chris
> ---
> 'Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.' -- Albert 
> Einstein
> 
> Am 03.09.2019 um 21:21 schrieb Jerry Hancock:
>> How would this compare to the TAPR TICC Rev D? The one that has the arduino 
>> base?  About half the price I see.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Jerry
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 2, 2019, at 5:50 AM, Christoph Kopetzky >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Mark,
>>> 
>>> interesting post.
>>> So is the FA1 compatible with the TimeLab or Stable32 software?
>>> And could I do phase noise measurements with it like the TimePod?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> Am 30.08.2019 um 22:57 schrieb Mark Sims:
 (Hopefully this is not a duplicate post...  hotmail has been having issues)
 
 The FA1 is a small, USB powered frequency counter.   You supply it with a 
 10 MHz reference and an input frequency of 1 .. 80 MHz.   It outputs a 
 text string of the measured frequency every second.  They cost around $80 
 .. $120.
 
 Apparently there is a PLL inside... the text string has a "PLL unlock" 
 flag.  There is no info on how it works and I have not opened mine up.
 
 I did a simple noise test on one where the input and ref clocks were from 
 a Tbolt.  It looks like the measurement noise is around +/- 0.0002 Hz.
 
 Lady Heather can now read it.  Attached is a screen capture of the noise 
 test.
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com 
 
 To unsubscribe, go to 
 http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
 and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
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>> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL FA1 frequency analyzer

[Christoph Kopetzky]

This would be an interesting compare.
I want to compare the FA1 and the TSA3011 if I am back in office and 
have both in my hands...
But I really do not want to buy unnecessary tools...  So if someone has 
done this it would be nice to read about that.


Mark, do you have also a TICC?

best regards

Chris
---
'Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.' -- Albert 
Einstein

Am 03.09.2019 um 21:21 schrieb Jerry Hancock:
How would this compare to the TAPR TICC Rev D? The one that has the 
arduino base?  About half the price I see.


Regards,

Jerry


On Sep 2, 2019, at 5:50 AM, Christoph Kopetzky > wrote:


Hi Mark,

interesting post.
So is the FA1 compatible with the TimeLab or Stable32 software?
And could I do phase noise measurements with it like the TimePod?


Chris

Am 30.08.2019 um 22:57 schrieb Mark Sims:
(Hopefully this is not a duplicate post...  hotmail has been having 
issues)


The FA1 is a small, USB powered frequency counter.   You supply it 
with a 10 MHz reference and an input frequency of 1 .. 80 MHz.   It 
outputs a text string of the measured frequency every second.  They 
cost around $80 .. $120.


Apparently there is a PLL inside... the text string has a "PLL 
unlock" flag.  There is no info on how it works and I have not 
opened mine up.


I did a simple noise test on one where the input and ref clocks were 
from a Tbolt.  It looks like the measurement noise is around +/- 
0.0002 Hz.


Lady Heather can now read it.  Attached is a screen capture of the 
noise test.


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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL FA1 frequency analyzer

[Jerry Hancock]

How would this compare to the TAPR TICC Rev D? The one that has the arduino 
base?  About half the price I see.

Regards,

Jerry


> On Sep 2, 2019, at 5:50 AM, Christoph Kopetzky  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> interesting post.
> So is the FA1 compatible with the TimeLab or Stable32 software?
> And could I do phase noise measurements with it like the TimePod?
> 
> 
> Chris
> 
> Am 30.08.2019 um 22:57 schrieb Mark Sims:
>> (Hopefully this is not a duplicate post...  hotmail has been having issues)
>> 
>> The FA1 is a small, USB powered frequency counter.   You supply it with a 10 
>> MHz reference and an input frequency of 1 .. 80 MHz.   It outputs a text 
>> string of the measured frequency every second.  They cost around $80 .. $120.
>> 
>> Apparently there is a PLL inside... the text string has a "PLL unlock" flag. 
>>  There is no info on how it works and I have not opened mine up.
>> 
>> I did a simple noise test on one where the input and ref clocks were from a 
>> Tbolt.  It looks like the measurement noise is around +/- 0.0002 Hz.
>> 
>> Lady Heather can now read it.  Attached is a screen capture of the noise 
>> test.
>> 
>> ___
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> 
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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL FA1 frequency analyzer

[Christoph Kopetzky]

I also think that it cannot replace a TimePod. But at this price it 
should be good for doing some experiments. The other choice I would take

is the FSA3011 from the chinese oem TURN Dynamic Systems...
It costs four times more but seems to be a little bit more professional...
My interest would be whether these can do phase noise measurements. That 
would be fine.
Are there any time-nuts here having done experiments with the FSA3011? 
The results would be very interesting.


In the next time I want to do a compare of both and will post the 
experience and diagrams here.
But not before the end of october. I unfortunately have to go for a 
surgery next week. After that I am in a health resort for some weeks.


Best regards

Chris

Am 02.09.2019 um 22:08 schrieb Mark Sims:

Yes, it should work with Timelab, Stable32, etc.  It streams a series of 
frequency measurements every second out the USB port (it uses a FTDI chip for 
the USB interface).  The data is of the format:
"   F:0123456789.123456789"  (without the quotes)

Measurements with a PLL unlock error are preceded by an '*'.   I've only seen 
unlocks when changing the input freq from say 1 MHz to 10 MHz.  I get two 
flagged measurements each time the freq changed.   I don't know how small a 
freq change can cause an unlock.

I don't know if Timelab can directly take the output data stream because of the leading 
"F:".  You may need to capture data to a file and edit off the "   F:"

I also don't know how well it would work for phase noise measurements... it 
would be no where as good as a TimePod.   I am doing some tests to see how well 
it compares to a TAPR TICC.

BTW,  my FA1 seems to have a frequency measurement bias of around -0.0002 Hz on 
a 10 MHz signal.  Also, I don't see any temperature related variation in the 
measurements... air conditioning was swinging the room temp over a 2 degree C 
span and I saw no traces of it in the results.
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[time-nuts] BG7TBL FA1 frequency analyzer

[Mark Sims]

Yes, it should work with Timelab, Stable32, etc.  It streams a series of 
frequency measurements every second out the USB port (it uses a FTDI chip for 
the USB interface).  The data is of the format:
"   F:0123456789.123456789"  (without the quotes)

Measurements with a PLL unlock error are preceded by an '*'.   I've only seen 
unlocks when changing the input freq from say 1 MHz to 10 MHz.  I get two 
flagged measurements each time the freq changed.   I don't know how small a 
freq change can cause an unlock.

I don't know if Timelab can directly take the output data stream because of the 
leading "F:".  You may need to capture data to a file and edit off the "   F:"

I also don't know how well it would work for phase noise measurements... it 
would be no where as good as a TimePod.   I am doing some tests to see how well 
it compares to a TAPR TICC.

BTW,  my FA1 seems to have a frequency measurement bias of around -0.0002 Hz on 
a 10 MHz signal.  Also, I don't see any temperature related variation in the 
measurements... air conditioning was swinging the room temp over a 2 degree C 
span and I saw no traces of it in the results.   
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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL FA1 frequency analyzer

[Christoph Kopetzky]

Hi Mark,

interesting post.
So is the FA1 compatible with the TimeLab or Stable32 software?
And could I do phase noise measurements with it like the TimePod?


Chris

Am 30.08.2019 um 22:57 schrieb Mark Sims:

(Hopefully this is not a duplicate post...  hotmail has been having issues)

The FA1 is a small, USB powered frequency counter.   You supply it with a 10 
MHz reference and an input frequency of 1 .. 80 MHz.   It outputs a text string 
of the measured frequency every second.  They cost around $80 .. $120.

Apparently there is a PLL inside... the text string has a "PLL unlock" flag.  
There is no info on how it works and I have not opened mine up.

I did a simple noise test on one where the input and ref clocks were from a 
Tbolt.  It looks like the measurement noise is around +/- 0.0002 Hz.

Lady Heather can now read it.  Attached is a screen capture of the noise test.

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Re: [time-nuts] BG7TBL FA1 frequency analyzer

[Anders Wallin]

maybe the measurement principle is similar to the PicoPak?
http://www.stable32.com/PicoPak%20App%20Notes%20Links.htm

Do open it up! And send a high resolution picture to the ist ;)

A.


On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 1:11 AM Mark Sims  wrote:

> (Hopefully this is not a duplicate post...  hotmail has been having issues)
>
> The FA1 is a small, USB powered frequency counter.   You supply it with a
> 10 MHz reference and an input frequency of 1 .. 80 MHz.   It outputs a text
> string of the measured frequency every second.  They cost around $80 ..
> $120.
>
> Apparently there is a PLL inside... the text string has a "PLL unlock"
> flag.  There is no info on how it works and I have not opened mine up.
>
> I did a simple noise test on one where the input and ref clocks were from
> a Tbolt.  It looks like the measurement noise is around +/- 0.0002 Hz.
>
> Lady Heather can now read it.  Attached is a screen capture of the noise
> test.___
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>
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[time-nuts] BG7TBL FA1 frequency analyzer

[Mark Sims]

(Hopefully this is not a duplicate post...  hotmail has been having issues)

The FA1 is a small, USB powered frequency counter.   You supply it with a 10 
MHz reference and an input frequency of 1 .. 80 MHz.   It outputs a text string 
of the measured frequency every second.  They cost around $80 .. $120.

Apparently there is a PLL inside... the text string has a "PLL unlock" flag.  
There is no info on how it works and I have not opened mine up.

I did a simple noise test on one where the input and ref clocks were from a 
Tbolt.  It looks like the measurement noise is around +/- 0.0002 Hz.

Lady Heather can now read it.  Attached is a screen capture of the noise test.___
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