Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
An aside, How about sending two identical PPS pulse to the left and right channels of a pair of stereo headphones. I estimate that time interval errors of under 100us should be detectable, and would appear as the pulse "moving" across the sound stage. Could be an interesting way of getting an indication of TIE. It could also allow you determine that two pulses are roughly aligned without reaching for the scope. The PPS may appear a single point sound directly ahead of the listener, moving left or right according to the delay. Ultimately as delay increases two distinct pulse would be heard. I'm not sure where that point would be. Probably several milliseconds. If anyone has the time to try it, I'm sure the group would be interested in the results. Best Regards, Tony Flavin -Original Message- From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Arnold Tibus Sent: 22 April 2020 22:56 To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question) Timenuts, Gentlemen, hello! I would like to make my little contribution to this discussion showing how I implemented my solution in my built PRS10 Box. For PPS and 10 MHz reference I am running since years successfully a Trimble Thunderbold together with the antenna fixed on the rooftop of my house (see pic). My PRS10 together with the stretcher of the 10µs long PPS pulse to about 250ms do work like a charm already more then 12 months driving LEDs. This way I can easy visually check the PRS10. By the way, the PPS output of Thunderbolt, also 10µs long, can as well be visualized with this LED driver. But I had no problem to see the pulse on my very old 100MHz Tektronix analog scope (but this is not very convenient for daily check :-( ). As pictures do say more then 1000 words, I want to share the pictures of my hardware for limited time for private timenut use, showing my way to solve the problems with available tools and parts (beside eg. the RbO, Thunderbold, Antenna and other used parts ;-) ). Here you can open, view and/ or copy my pictures if you want: https://my.hidrive.com/share/wyaryf.3uq Comments? Enjoy! kind regards, Arnold, DK2WT Am 21.04.2020 um 04:25 schrieb Taka Kamiya via time-nuts: > Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. > 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to sync on > and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher is not > used. If your purpose is ONLY to see if it's there or not, hook up a small > speaker, earphone, amplified or not, and you can hear the tick-tick sound. > > I like DIYing and many times, I wonder if pps distribution circuit is > working. I can tell a very short pulse that will barely register on LED is > clearly audible. > I thought I'd share. > > --- > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go > to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
Hi Well, actually it should work. You are doing an “impulse response” on the speaker. As long as it has a response in the audio range (which is a good bet), it should make some noise. Bob > On Apr 22, 2020, at 3:57 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts > wrote: > > Bob? Are you making "Big Ben" out of your T-bolt? > > Really, my original post was meant to sort of show something interesting I > happen to find. Nothing serious. Those really short pulse shouldn't be > audible but most are. I'm making a set of tools to quickly check my time > sources. That was for PPS. (you know I'm behind a rack stepping over > wires and trying to see if pps is actually coming out?) > > --- > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG > > >On Wednesday, April 22, 2020, 2:16:17 PM EDT, John Moran, Scawby Design > wrote: > > Bob kb8tq - Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:46:34 -0400 > > Said - > >> > A lot also depends on what sort of voltage / power the speaker is expecting. > If it's a high impedance voice coil gizmo things aren't going to be as easy as > with a piezo gizmo designed to work in a 1.3V battery powered greeting card. > > Where did I leave that 10KV output amplifier ?.. should be easy to find ?. :) >> > > 10kV may be a little excessive for normal devices and ears. > > However, Texas Instruments make some rather nice piezoelectric haptic drivers > that include an on-chip boost voltage generator that can supply up to 200v to > drive the piezo disc ... more than enough to drive someone mad after a few > hours of 1PPS ticking in the cellar. The device is a DRV8662 and is available > from Digikey for $3.35. It is a small-pitch device (0.5mm) but not impossible > to solder. > > I will order a couple and see how they perform. I think I have some 4kHz > resonant piezo discs that should ring quite nicely ... even when hit by a > narrow pulse ... at 200v. > > Data sheet here - > > http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/drv8662.pdf > > There are a couple of other information sheets referenced at the end of the > data sheet. > > John > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
Timenuts, Gentlemen, hello! I would like to make my little contribution to this discussion showing how I implemented my solution in my built PRS10 Box. For PPS and 10 MHz reference I am running since years successfully a Trimble Thunderbold together with the antenna fixed on the rooftop of my house (see pic). My PRS10 together with the stretcher of the 10µs long PPS pulse to about 250ms do work like a charm already more then 12 months driving LEDs. This way I can easy visually check the PRS10. By the way, the PPS output of Thunderbolt, also 10µs long, can as well be visualized with this LED driver. But I had no problem to see the pulse on my very old 100MHz Tektronix analog scope (but this is not very convenient for daily check :-( ). As pictures do say more then 1000 words, I want to share the pictures of my hardware for limited time for private timenut use, showing my way to solve the problems with available tools and parts (beside eg. the RbO, Thunderbold, Antenna and other used parts ;-) ). Here you can open, view and/ or copy my pictures if you want: https://my.hidrive.com/share/wyaryf.3uq Comments? Enjoy! kind regards, Arnold, DK2WT Am 21.04.2020 um 04:25 schrieb Taka Kamiya via time-nuts: Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to sync on and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher is not used. If your purpose is ONLY to see if it's there or not, hook up a small speaker, earphone, amplified or not, and you can hear the tick-tick sound. I like DIYing and many times, I wonder if pps distribution circuit is working. I can tell a very short pulse that will barely register on LED is clearly audible. I thought I'd share. --- (Mr.) Taka Kamiya KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
Bob? Are you making "Big Ben" out of your T-bolt? Really, my original post was meant to sort of show something interesting I happen to find. Nothing serious. Those really short pulse shouldn't be audible but most are. I'm making a set of tools to quickly check my time sources. That was for PPS. (you know I'm behind a rack stepping over wires and trying to see if pps is actually coming out?) --- (Mr.) Taka Kamiya KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG On Wednesday, April 22, 2020, 2:16:17 PM EDT, John Moran, Scawby Design wrote: Bob kb8tq - Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:46:34 -0400 Said - > A lot also depends on what sort of voltage / power the speaker is expecting. If it's a high impedance voice coil gizmo things aren't going to be as easy as with a piezo gizmo designed to work in a 1.3V battery powered greeting card. Where did I leave that 10KV output amplifier ?.. should be easy to find ?. :) > 10kV may be a little excessive for normal devices and ears. However, Texas Instruments make some rather nice piezoelectric haptic drivers that include an on-chip boost voltage generator that can supply up to 200v to drive the piezo disc ... more than enough to drive someone mad after a few hours of 1PPS ticking in the cellar. The device is a DRV8662 and is available from Digikey for $3.35. It is a small-pitch device (0.5mm) but not impossible to solder. I will order a couple and see how they perform. I think I have some 4kHz resonant piezo discs that should ring quite nicely ... even when hit by a narrow pulse ... at 200v. Data sheet here - http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/drv8662.pdf There are a couple of other information sheets referenced at the end of the data sheet. John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
Bob kb8tq - Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:46:34 -0400 Said - > A lot also depends on what sort of voltage / power the speaker is expecting. If it's a high impedance voice coil gizmo things aren't going to be as easy as with a piezo gizmo designed to work in a 1.3V battery powered greeting card. Where did I leave that 10KV output amplifier ?.. should be easy to find ?. :) > 10kV may be a little excessive for normal devices and ears. However, Texas Instruments make some rather nice piezoelectric haptic drivers that include an on-chip boost voltage generator that can supply up to 200v to drive the piezo disc ... more than enough to drive someone mad after a few hours of 1PPS ticking in the cellar. The device is a DRV8662 and is available from Digikey for $3.35. It is a small-pitch device (0.5mm) but not impossible to solder. I will order a couple and see how they perform. I think I have some 4kHz resonant piezo discs that should ring quite nicely ... even when hit by a narrow pulse ... at 200v. Data sheet here - http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/drv8662.pdf There are a couple of other information sheets referenced at the end of the data sheet. John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
Hi A lot also depends on what sort of voltage / power the speaker is expecting. If it’s a high impedance voice coil gizmo things aren’t going to be as easy as with a piezo gizmo designed to work in a 1.3V battery powered greeting card. Where did I leave that 10KV output amplifier ….. should be easy to find …. :) Bob > On Apr 22, 2020, at 5:59 AM, Dana Whitlow wrote: > > The thing is, the shorter the electrical pulse, the less total energy is > available > (particularly in the audio frequency range), and no amount of "echoing > around" > (which is really just a form of filtering) can fix that. So there *are* > limits. > > Dana > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 7:49 PM Neville Michie wrote: > >> I have found that a piezo sounder, a ceramic disk with two leads for >> making beepers >> works quite well for very short pulses. >> For a very short period charge flows into this device, which is a >> capacitor, >> and for that duration its dimensions are changed, and when it reverts to >> its >> original state the seismic disturbances echo around the device making a >> very clear click. >> >> cheers, >> Neville Michie >> >> >>> On 21 Apr 2020, at 12:25, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts < >> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: >>> >>> Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. >>> 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to sync >> on and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher is >> not used. If your purpose is ONLY to see if it's there or not, hook up a >> small speaker, earphone, amplified or not, and you can hear the tick-tick >> sound. >>> >>> I like DIYing and many times, I wonder if pps distribution circuit is >> working. I can tell a very short pulse that will barely register on LED is >> clearly audible. >>> I thought I'd share. >>> >>> --- >>> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya >>> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
The thing is, the shorter the electrical pulse, the less total energy is available (particularly in the audio frequency range), and no amount of "echoing around" (which is really just a form of filtering) can fix that. So there *are* limits. Dana On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 7:49 PM Neville Michie wrote: > I have found that a piezo sounder, a ceramic disk with two leads for > making beepers > works quite well for very short pulses. > For a very short period charge flows into this device, which is a > capacitor, > and for that duration its dimensions are changed, and when it reverts to > its > original state the seismic disturbances echo around the device making a > very clear click. > > cheers, > Neville Michie > > > > On 21 Apr 2020, at 12:25, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts < > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > > Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. > > 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to sync > on and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher is > not used. If your purpose is ONLY to see if it's there or not, hook up a > small speaker, earphone, amplified or not, and you can hear the tick-tick > sound. > > > > I like DIYing and many times, I wonder if pps distribution circuit is > working. I can tell a very short pulse that will barely register on LED is > clearly audible. > > I thought I'd share. > > > > --- > > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya > > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
I have found that a piezo sounder, a ceramic disk with two leads for making beepers works quite well for very short pulses. For a very short period charge flows into this device, which is a capacitor, and for that duration its dimensions are changed, and when it reverts to its original state the seismic disturbances echo around the device making a very clear click. cheers, Neville Michie > On 21 Apr 2020, at 12:25, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts > wrote: > > Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. > 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to sync on > and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher is not > used. If your purpose is ONLY to see if it's there or not, hook up a small > speaker, earphone, amplified or not, and you can hear the tick-tick sound. > > I like DIYing and many times, I wonder if pps distribution circuit is > working. I can tell a very short pulse that will barely register on LED is > clearly audible. > I thought I'd share. > > --- > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
Hi, 20us length is a mil standard. Described in ICD-GPS-060. /Björn Sent from my iPhone > On 21 Apr 2020, at 13:37, Bob kb8tq wrote: > > Hi > > One of the simplest justifications I can think of for a dirt cheap “Chinese” > digital ’scope is to capture short burst stuff like narrow pps pulses. > > 10 us / non-adjustable is a *very* common spec for a 1 PPS. > > Bob > >> On Apr 21, 2020, at 4:56 AM, Chris Burford wrote: >> >> I reached out to SRS several months ago to inquire if the pulse width could >> be configured from the default of 10 micro second. Their responses was no. >> >> Chris >> >> -Original Message- >> From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Taka Kamiya >> via time-nuts >> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2020 22:35 >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> >> Cc: Taka Kamiya >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a >> question) >> >> Out of all signal source, the shortest 1 pps is PRS-10 at 10 micro second. >> T-bolt is quite short as well but I don't have a definite data. >> For those, speaker method worked just fine. I'm just sharing what I learned >> on happenstance. >> >> --- >> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya >> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG >> >> >> On Monday, April 20, 2020, 11:05:02 PM EDT, Bill Byrom >> wrote: >> >> It's easy to trigger on short pulses on most oscilloscopes if you follow >> these steps: >> (1) Do NOT use Auto Trigger mode. Instead use Normal trigger mode. >> (2) Set the vertical coupling mode to DC. >> (3) Set the vertical gain (volts/div) and offset so that the baseline (OFF >> voltage between pulses) and pulse ON voltage should both be visible on the >> vertical scale. >> (4) Set the trigger coupling mode to DC and the trigger source to the proper >> channel. >> (5) Set the trigger voltage to the midpoint between the pulse OFF and ON >> voltage. >> (6) Set the trigger slope appropriately, depending on the polarity of the 1 >> PPS pulse. >> (7) Many oscilloscopes have a trigger indicator LED. It should flash visibly >> on each 1 PPS signal. >> (8) If you are using an analog scope which does NOT have a microchannel >> plate (which was used on the Tektronix 2467 family and a few other models), >> the pulse ON signal may be difficult to see at a fast time/div setting, even >> with a high scope intensity setting. But you can slow down the time/div of >> an analog scope to something easy to see, such as 10 ms/div. This will allow >> you to see a bright sweep each time the scope triggers, even if a short >> pulse can't be seen. >> (9) When using a digital oscilloscope, turn on the peak detect display mode. >> This allows the oscilloscope to keep a high sampling rate even if the >> time/div is set for a moderately slow sweep. >> >> If the 1 PPS signal is very short, you won't be able to hear it on a speaker >> with a direct connection as you describe. But you can use a pulse stretcher >> circuit (such as a 555 timer IC) to drive a LED or speaker with a long >> output pulse (such as 10 ms). If you use two 555 IC's (or a 556 dual timer >> IC), you can even configure one section as a one-shot and the other as a >> tone generator so that a beep is produced for each pulse. The 555 and 556 >> may be sold as LM555/LM556 or NE555/NE556. >> -- >> Bill Byrom N5BB >> Retired Tektronix Application Engineer >> >>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020, at 9:25 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote: >>> Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. >>> 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to sync >>> on and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher >>> is not used. If your purpose is ONLY to see if it's there or not, hook >>> up a small speaker, earphone, amplified or not, and you can hear the >>> tick-tick sound. >>> >>> I like DIYing and many times, I wonder if pps distribution circuit is >>> working. I can tell a very short pulse that will barely register on >>> LED is clearly audible. >>> I thought I'd share. >>> >>> --- >>> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya >>> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
TAPR offers a FatPPS kit to stretch the pulse out, and it looks like they're back in stock. I have one but haven't assembled it yet. https://tapr.org/product/fatpps-pulse-stretcher/ Larry On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 8:17 AM Dana Whitlow wrote: > I've seen PPS ticks as short as 100 nsec from some equipment. Didn't think > to try the headphone > trick at the time, but am dubious about hearing pulses that short at > ordinary pulse amplitudes. > > Dana > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 6:37 AM Bob kb8tq wrote: > > > Hi > > > > One of the simplest justifications I can think of for a dirt cheap > > “Chinese” > > digital ’scope is to capture short burst stuff like narrow pps pulses. > > > > 10 us / non-adjustable is a *very* common spec for a 1 PPS. > > > > Bob > > > > > On Apr 21, 2020, at 4:56 AM, Chris Burford > > wrote: > > > > > > I reached out to SRS several months ago to inquire if the pulse width > > could be configured from the default of 10 micro second. Their responses > > was no. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Taka > > Kamiya via time-nuts > > > Sent: Monday, April 20, 2020 22:35 > > > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement < > > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> > > > Cc: Taka Kamiya > > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not > a > > question) > > > > > > Out of all signal source, the shortest 1 pps is PRS-10 at 10 micro > > second. T-bolt is quite short as well but I don't have a definite data. > > > For those, speaker method worked just fine. I'm just sharing what I > > learned on happenstance. > > > > > > --- > > > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya > > > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG > > > > > > > > >On Monday, April 20, 2020, 11:05:02 PM EDT, Bill Byrom < > > t...@radio.sent.com> wrote: > > > > > > It's easy to trigger on short pulses on most oscilloscopes if you > follow > > these steps: > > > (1) Do NOT use Auto Trigger mode. Instead use Normal trigger mode. > > > (2) Set the vertical coupling mode to DC. > > > (3) Set the vertical gain (volts/div) and offset so that the baseline > > (OFF voltage between pulses) and pulse ON voltage should both be visible > on > > the vertical scale. > > > (4) Set the trigger coupling mode to DC and the trigger source to the > > proper channel. > > > (5) Set the trigger voltage to the midpoint between the pulse OFF and > ON > > voltage. > > > (6) Set the trigger slope appropriately, depending on the polarity of > > the 1 PPS pulse. > > > (7) Many oscilloscopes have a trigger indicator LED. It should flash > > visibly on each 1 PPS signal. > > > (8) If you are using an analog scope which does NOT have a microchannel > > plate (which was used on the Tektronix 2467 family and a few other > models), > > the pulse ON signal may be difficult to see at a fast time/div setting, > > even with a high scope intensity setting. But you can slow down the > > time/div of an analog scope to something easy to see, such as 10 ms/div. > > This will allow you to see a bright sweep each time the scope triggers, > > even if a short pulse can't be seen. > > > (9) When using a digital oscilloscope, turn on the peak detect display > > mode. This allows the oscilloscope to keep a high sampling rate even if > the > > time/div is set for a moderately slow sweep. > > > > > > If the 1 PPS signal is very short, you won't be able to hear it on a > > speaker with a direct connection as you describe. But you can use a pulse > > stretcher circuit (such as a 555 timer IC) to drive a LED or speaker > with a > > long output pulse (such as 10 ms). If you use two 555 IC's (or a 556 dual > > timer IC), you can even configure one section as a one-shot and the other > > as a tone generator so that a beep is produced for each pulse. The 555 > and > > 556 may be sold as LM555/LM556 or NE555/NE556. > > > -- > > > Bill Byrom N5BB > > > Retired Tektronix Application Engineer > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020, at 9:25 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote: > > >> Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. > > >> 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to > sync > > >> on and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher > > &g
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
I've seen PPS ticks as short as 100 nsec from some equipment. Didn't think to try the headphone trick at the time, but am dubious about hearing pulses that short at ordinary pulse amplitudes. Dana On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 6:37 AM Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > One of the simplest justifications I can think of for a dirt cheap > “Chinese” > digital ’scope is to capture short burst stuff like narrow pps pulses. > > 10 us / non-adjustable is a *very* common spec for a 1 PPS. > > Bob > > > On Apr 21, 2020, at 4:56 AM, Chris Burford > wrote: > > > > I reached out to SRS several months ago to inquire if the pulse width > could be configured from the default of 10 micro second. Their responses > was no. > > > > Chris > > > > -Original Message- > > From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Taka > Kamiya via time-nuts > > Sent: Monday, April 20, 2020 22:35 > > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement < > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> > > Cc: Taka Kamiya > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a > question) > > > > Out of all signal source, the shortest 1 pps is PRS-10 at 10 micro > second. T-bolt is quite short as well but I don't have a definite data. > > For those, speaker method worked just fine. I'm just sharing what I > learned on happenstance. > > > > --- > > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya > > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG > > > > > >On Monday, April 20, 2020, 11:05:02 PM EDT, Bill Byrom < > t...@radio.sent.com> wrote: > > > > It's easy to trigger on short pulses on most oscilloscopes if you follow > these steps: > > (1) Do NOT use Auto Trigger mode. Instead use Normal trigger mode. > > (2) Set the vertical coupling mode to DC. > > (3) Set the vertical gain (volts/div) and offset so that the baseline > (OFF voltage between pulses) and pulse ON voltage should both be visible on > the vertical scale. > > (4) Set the trigger coupling mode to DC and the trigger source to the > proper channel. > > (5) Set the trigger voltage to the midpoint between the pulse OFF and ON > voltage. > > (6) Set the trigger slope appropriately, depending on the polarity of > the 1 PPS pulse. > > (7) Many oscilloscopes have a trigger indicator LED. It should flash > visibly on each 1 PPS signal. > > (8) If you are using an analog scope which does NOT have a microchannel > plate (which was used on the Tektronix 2467 family and a few other models), > the pulse ON signal may be difficult to see at a fast time/div setting, > even with a high scope intensity setting. But you can slow down the > time/div of an analog scope to something easy to see, such as 10 ms/div. > This will allow you to see a bright sweep each time the scope triggers, > even if a short pulse can't be seen. > > (9) When using a digital oscilloscope, turn on the peak detect display > mode. This allows the oscilloscope to keep a high sampling rate even if the > time/div is set for a moderately slow sweep. > > > > If the 1 PPS signal is very short, you won't be able to hear it on a > speaker with a direct connection as you describe. But you can use a pulse > stretcher circuit (such as a 555 timer IC) to drive a LED or speaker with a > long output pulse (such as 10 ms). If you use two 555 IC's (or a 556 dual > timer IC), you can even configure one section as a one-shot and the other > as a tone generator so that a beep is produced for each pulse. The 555 and > 556 may be sold as LM555/LM556 or NE555/NE556. > > -- > > Bill Byrom N5BB > > Retired Tektronix Application Engineer > > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020, at 9:25 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote: > >> Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. > >> 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to sync > >> on and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher > >> is not used. If your purpose is ONLY to see if it's there or not, hook > >> up a small speaker, earphone, amplified or not, and you can hear the > >> tick-tick sound. > >> > >> I like DIYing and many times, I wonder if pps distribution circuit is > >> working. I can tell a very short pulse that will barely register on > >> LED is clearly audible. > >> I thought I'd share. > >> > >> --- > >> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya > >> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG > >> ___ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to >
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
Hi One of the simplest justifications I can think of for a dirt cheap “Chinese” digital ’scope is to capture short burst stuff like narrow pps pulses. 10 us / non-adjustable is a *very* common spec for a 1 PPS. Bob > On Apr 21, 2020, at 4:56 AM, Chris Burford wrote: > > I reached out to SRS several months ago to inquire if the pulse width could > be configured from the default of 10 micro second. Their responses was no. > > Chris > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Taka Kamiya > via time-nuts > Sent: Monday, April 20, 2020 22:35 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Cc: Taka Kamiya > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a > question) > > Out of all signal source, the shortest 1 pps is PRS-10 at 10 micro second. > T-bolt is quite short as well but I don't have a definite data. > For those, speaker method worked just fine. I'm just sharing what I learned > on happenstance. > > --- > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG > > >On Monday, April 20, 2020, 11:05:02 PM EDT, Bill Byrom > wrote: > > It's easy to trigger on short pulses on most oscilloscopes if you follow > these steps: > (1) Do NOT use Auto Trigger mode. Instead use Normal trigger mode. > (2) Set the vertical coupling mode to DC. > (3) Set the vertical gain (volts/div) and offset so that the baseline (OFF > voltage between pulses) and pulse ON voltage should both be visible on the > vertical scale. > (4) Set the trigger coupling mode to DC and the trigger source to the proper > channel. > (5) Set the trigger voltage to the midpoint between the pulse OFF and ON > voltage. > (6) Set the trigger slope appropriately, depending on the polarity of the 1 > PPS pulse. > (7) Many oscilloscopes have a trigger indicator LED. It should flash visibly > on each 1 PPS signal. > (8) If you are using an analog scope which does NOT have a microchannel plate > (which was used on the Tektronix 2467 family and a few other models), the > pulse ON signal may be difficult to see at a fast time/div setting, even with > a high scope intensity setting. But you can slow down the time/div of an > analog scope to something easy to see, such as 10 ms/div. This will allow you > to see a bright sweep each time the scope triggers, even if a short pulse > can't be seen. > (9) When using a digital oscilloscope, turn on the peak detect display mode. > This allows the oscilloscope to keep a high sampling rate even if the > time/div is set for a moderately slow sweep. > > If the 1 PPS signal is very short, you won't be able to hear it on a speaker > with a direct connection as you describe. But you can use a pulse stretcher > circuit (such as a 555 timer IC) to drive a LED or speaker with a long output > pulse (such as 10 ms). If you use two 555 IC's (or a 556 dual timer IC), you > can even configure one section as a one-shot and the other as a tone > generator so that a beep is produced for each pulse. The 555 and 556 may be > sold as LM555/LM556 or NE555/NE556. > -- > Bill Byrom N5BB > Retired Tektronix Application Engineer > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020, at 9:25 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote: >> Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. >> 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to sync >> on and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher >> is not used. If your purpose is ONLY to see if it's there or not, hook >> up a small speaker, earphone, amplified or not, and you can hear the >> tick-tick sound. >> >> I like DIYing and many times, I wonder if pps distribution circuit is >> working. I can tell a very short pulse that will barely register on >> LED is clearly audible. >> I thought I'd share. >> >> --- >> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya >> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the i
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
I reached out to SRS several months ago to inquire if the pulse width could be configured from the default of 10 micro second. Their responses was no. Chris -Original Message- From: time-nuts On Behalf Of Taka Kamiya via time-nuts Sent: Monday, April 20, 2020 22:35 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Cc: Taka Kamiya Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question) Out of all signal source, the shortest 1 pps is PRS-10 at 10 micro second. T-bolt is quite short as well but I don't have a definite data. For those, speaker method worked just fine. I'm just sharing what I learned on happenstance. --- (Mr.) Taka Kamiya KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG On Monday, April 20, 2020, 11:05:02 PM EDT, Bill Byrom wrote: It's easy to trigger on short pulses on most oscilloscopes if you follow these steps: (1) Do NOT use Auto Trigger mode. Instead use Normal trigger mode. (2) Set the vertical coupling mode to DC. (3) Set the vertical gain (volts/div) and offset so that the baseline (OFF voltage between pulses) and pulse ON voltage should both be visible on the vertical scale. (4) Set the trigger coupling mode to DC and the trigger source to the proper channel. (5) Set the trigger voltage to the midpoint between the pulse OFF and ON voltage. (6) Set the trigger slope appropriately, depending on the polarity of the 1 PPS pulse. (7) Many oscilloscopes have a trigger indicator LED. It should flash visibly on each 1 PPS signal. (8) If you are using an analog scope which does NOT have a microchannel plate (which was used on the Tektronix 2467 family and a few other models), the pulse ON signal may be difficult to see at a fast time/div setting, even with a high scope intensity setting. But you can slow down the time/div of an analog scope to something easy to see, such as 10 ms/div. This will allow you to see a bright sweep each time the scope triggers, even if a short pulse can't be seen. (9) When using a digital oscilloscope, turn on the peak detect display mode. This allows the oscilloscope to keep a high sampling rate even if the time/div is set for a moderately slow sweep. If the 1 PPS signal is very short, you won't be able to hear it on a speaker with a direct connection as you describe. But you can use a pulse stretcher circuit (such as a 555 timer IC) to drive a LED or speaker with a long output pulse (such as 10 ms). If you use two 555 IC's (or a 556 dual timer IC), you can even configure one section as a one-shot and the other as a tone generator so that a beep is produced for each pulse. The 555 and 556 may be sold as LM555/LM556 or NE555/NE556. -- Bill Byrom N5BB Retired Tektronix Application Engineer On Mon, Apr 20, 2020, at 9:25 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote: > Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. > 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to sync > on and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher > is not used. If your purpose is ONLY to see if it's there or not, hook > up a small speaker, earphone, amplified or not, and you can hear the > tick-tick sound. > > I like DIYing and many times, I wonder if pps distribution circuit is > working. I can tell a very short pulse that will barely register on > LED is clearly audible. > I thought I'd share. > > --- > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
Out of all signal source, the shortest 1 pps is PRS-10 at 10 micro second. T-bolt is quite short as well but I don't have a definite data. For those, speaker method worked just fine. I'm just sharing what I learned on happenstance. --- (Mr.) Taka Kamiya KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG On Monday, April 20, 2020, 11:05:02 PM EDT, Bill Byrom wrote: It's easy to trigger on short pulses on most oscilloscopes if you follow these steps: (1) Do NOT use Auto Trigger mode. Instead use Normal trigger mode. (2) Set the vertical coupling mode to DC. (3) Set the vertical gain (volts/div) and offset so that the baseline (OFF voltage between pulses) and pulse ON voltage should both be visible on the vertical scale. (4) Set the trigger coupling mode to DC and the trigger source to the proper channel. (5) Set the trigger voltage to the midpoint between the pulse OFF and ON voltage. (6) Set the trigger slope appropriately, depending on the polarity of the 1 PPS pulse. (7) Many oscilloscopes have a trigger indicator LED. It should flash visibly on each 1 PPS signal. (8) If you are using an analog scope which does NOT have a microchannel plate (which was used on the Tektronix 2467 family and a few other models), the pulse ON signal may be difficult to see at a fast time/div setting, even with a high scope intensity setting. But you can slow down the time/div of an analog scope to something easy to see, such as 10 ms/div. This will allow you to see a bright sweep each time the scope triggers, even if a short pulse can't be seen. (9) When using a digital oscilloscope, turn on the peak detect display mode. This allows the oscilloscope to keep a high sampling rate even if the time/div is set for a moderately slow sweep. If the 1 PPS signal is very short, you won't be able to hear it on a speaker with a direct connection as you describe. But you can use a pulse stretcher circuit (such as a 555 timer IC) to drive a LED or speaker with a long output pulse (such as 10 ms). If you use two 555 IC's (or a 556 dual timer IC), you can even configure one section as a one-shot and the other as a tone generator so that a beep is produced for each pulse. The 555 and 556 may be sold as LM555/LM556 or NE555/NE556. -- Bill Byrom N5BB Retired Tektronix Application Engineer On Mon, Apr 20, 2020, at 9:25 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote: > Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. > 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to sync > on and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher > is not used. If your purpose is ONLY to see if it's there or not, hook > up a small speaker, earphone, amplified or not, and you can hear the > tick-tick sound. > > I like DIYing and many times, I wonder if pps distribution circuit is > working. I can tell a very short pulse that will barely register on > LED is clearly audible. > I thought I'd share. > > --- > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
It's easy to trigger on short pulses on most oscilloscopes if you follow these steps: (1) Do NOT use Auto Trigger mode. Instead use Normal trigger mode. (2) Set the vertical coupling mode to DC. (3) Set the vertical gain (volts/div) and offset so that the baseline (OFF voltage between pulses) and pulse ON voltage should both be visible on the vertical scale. (4) Set the trigger coupling mode to DC and the trigger source to the proper channel. (5) Set the trigger voltage to the midpoint between the pulse OFF and ON voltage. (6) Set the trigger slope appropriately, depending on the polarity of the 1 PPS pulse. (7) Many oscilloscopes have a trigger indicator LED. It should flash visibly on each 1 PPS signal. (8) If you are using an analog scope which does NOT have a microchannel plate (which was used on the Tektronix 2467 family and a few other models), the pulse ON signal may be difficult to see at a fast time/div setting, even with a high scope intensity setting. But you can slow down the time/div of an analog scope to something easy to see, such as 10 ms/div. This will allow you to see a bright sweep each time the scope triggers, even if a short pulse can't be seen. (9) When using a digital oscilloscope, turn on the peak detect display mode. This allows the oscilloscope to keep a high sampling rate even if the time/div is set for a moderately slow sweep. If the 1 PPS signal is very short, you won't be able to hear it on a speaker with a direct connection as you describe. But you can use a pulse stretcher circuit (such as a 555 timer IC) to drive a LED or speaker with a long output pulse (such as 10 ms). If you use two 555 IC's (or a 556 dual timer IC), you can even configure one section as a one-shot and the other as a tone generator so that a beep is produced for each pulse. The 555 and 556 may be sold as LM555/LM556 or NE555/NE556. -- Bill Byrom N5BB Retired Tektronix Application Engineer On Mon, Apr 20, 2020, at 9:25 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote: > Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. > 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to sync > on and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher > is not used. If your purpose is ONLY to see if it's there or not, hook > up a small speaker, earphone, amplified or not, and you can hear the > tick-tick sound. > > I like DIYing and many times, I wonder if pps distribution circuit is > working. I can tell a very short pulse that will barely register on > LED is clearly audible. > I thought I'd share. > > --- > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Using speaker / earphone for PPS testing (not a question)
Maybe everyone but I knew, but I just did this and found it useful. 1 pps signal from some GPS are notoriously narrow and difficult to sync on and see on scopes. LED will barely light if some kind of stretcher is not used. If your purpose is ONLY to see if it's there or not, hook up a small speaker, earphone, amplified or not, and you can hear the tick-tick sound. I like DIYing and many times, I wonder if pps distribution circuit is working. I can tell a very short pulse that will barely register on LED is clearly audible. I thought I'd share. --- (Mr.) Taka Kamiya KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.
