Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[paul swed]

Its been stable for several hours. So who knows.
Regards
Paul.

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 8:17 PM Dana Whitlow  wrote:

> Sudden changes in amplitude or phase can also be a local phenomenon,
> like a loose joint in a rain gutter system for example.  One would think
> that
> such a problem in a high power transmitter installation would be setting
> off alarms all over the place and probably automatically tripping the
> transmitter off.
>
> Dana
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:59 PM paul swed  wrote:
>
> > Actually its stranger than that they were down 10db and now are back up
> to
> > -71 thats typical here. Its kind of cutting in and out like a bad antenna
> > connection at 75,000 watts. Yikes.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:06 PM paul swed  wrote:
> >
> > > Yes they are on the air. A bit down today at -80db normally -70.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:48 PM David G. McGaw <
> > > david.g.mc...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Paul,
> > >>
> > >> Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be?  I am not seeing
> anything
> > >> in NH.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> David N1HAC
> > >>
> > >> On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
> > >> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > >> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> > air
> > >> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> > have
> > >> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > >> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> > long
> > >> > run. Nice.
> > >> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> > also.
> > >> > Enjoy.
> > >> > Paul
> > >> > WB8TSL
> > >> > ___
> > >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > >> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > >>
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.febo.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts_lists.febo.comdata=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cac55ba07ba7e44c56e0408d83949707e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637322334868061249sdata=ITxnnUFmF7%2F9U2dn25pwR8upRiBuSg6Uzw49CxxZBMQ%3Dreserved=0
> > >> > and follow the instructions there.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ___
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> > >> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > >> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>
> > >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Dana Whitlow]

Sudden changes in amplitude or phase can also be a local phenomenon,
like a loose joint in a rain gutter system for example.  One would think
that
such a problem in a high power transmitter installation would be setting
off alarms all over the place and probably automatically tripping the
transmitter off.

Dana


On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:59 PM paul swed  wrote:

> Actually its stranger than that they were down 10db and now are back up to
> -71 thats typical here. Its kind of cutting in and out like a bad antenna
> connection at 75,000 watts. Yikes.
>
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:06 PM paul swed  wrote:
>
> > Yes they are on the air. A bit down today at -80db normally -70.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:48 PM David G. McGaw <
> > david.g.mc...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be?  I am not seeing anything
> >> in NH.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> David N1HAC
> >>
> >> On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
> >> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> air
> >> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> have
> >> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> >> > run. Nice.
> >> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> also.
> >> > Enjoy.
> >> > Paul
> >> > WB8TSL
> >> > ___
> >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> > To unsubscribe, go to
> >>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.febo.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts_lists.febo.comdata=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cac55ba07ba7e44c56e0408d83949707e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637322334868061249sdata=ITxnnUFmF7%2F9U2dn25pwR8upRiBuSg6Uzw49CxxZBMQ%3Dreserved=0
> >> > and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[paul swed]

it seemed to act up for a bit this afternoon and has been solid for 2 hours
at least.
Regards

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:28 PM paul swed  wrote:

> Actually its stranger than that they were down 10db and now are back up to
> -71 thats typical here. Its kind of cutting in and out like a bad antenna
> connection at 75,000 watts. Yikes.
>
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:06 PM paul swed  wrote:
>
>> Yes they are on the air. A bit down today at -80db normally -70.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:48 PM David G. McGaw <
>> david.g.mc...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Paul,
>>>
>>> Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be?  I am not seeing anything
>>> in NH.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> David N1HAC
>>>
>>> On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
>>> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
>>> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
>>> air
>>> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
>>> have
>>> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>>> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
>>> > run. Nice.
>>> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
>>> also.
>>> > Enjoy.
>>> > Paul
>>> > WB8TSL
>>> > ___
>>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.febo.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts_lists.febo.comdata=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cac55ba07ba7e44c56e0408d83949707e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637322334868061249sdata=ITxnnUFmF7%2F9U2dn25pwR8upRiBuSg6Uzw49CxxZBMQ%3Dreserved=0
>>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[paul swed]

Actually its stranger than that they were down 10db and now are back up to
-71 thats typical here. Its kind of cutting in and out like a bad antenna
connection at 75,000 watts. Yikes.

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:06 PM paul swed  wrote:

> Yes they are on the air. A bit down today at -80db normally -70.
>
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:48 PM David G. McGaw <
> david.g.mc...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be?  I am not seeing anything
>> in NH.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> David N1HAC
>>
>> On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
>> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
>> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
>> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
>> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
>> > run. Nice.
>> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
>> > Enjoy.
>> > Paul
>> > WB8TSL
>> > ___
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.febo.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts_lists.febo.comdata=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cac55ba07ba7e44c56e0408d83949707e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637322334868061249sdata=ITxnnUFmF7%2F9U2dn25pwR8upRiBuSg6Uzw49CxxZBMQ%3Dreserved=0
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[paul swed]

Yes they are on the air. A bit down today at -80db normally -70.

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:48 PM David G. McGaw 
wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
> Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be?  I am not seeing anything
> in NH.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David N1HAC
>
> On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:
> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> > run. Nice.
> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
> > Enjoy.
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.febo.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts_lists.febo.comdata=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cac55ba07ba7e44c56e0408d83949707e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C637322334868061249sdata=ITxnnUFmF7%2F9U2dn25pwR8upRiBuSg6Uzw49CxxZBMQ%3Dreserved=0
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[David G. McGaw]

Hi Paul,

Is Wildwood transmitting now or will they be?  I am not seeing anything 
in NH.


Thanks,

David N1HAC

On 8/5/20 10:00 AM, paul swed wrote:

Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi


> On Aug 6, 2020, at 9:38 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) 
>  wrote:
> 
> I probably need to clarify where I'm coming from in relation to my previous
> message.
> 
> I have a fair bit of background in dealing with using GPS clock sources for
> synchronization at communication sites.   Many of these sites are lucky to
> have a rubidium oscillator in place for holdover, although some do (usually
> the larger ones).  And we're talking about thousands and thousands and
> thousands of these sites.
> 
> Where I was coming from is that at these sites, GPS can be a challenge -
> it's in a narrow band, very low signal, and, at least from my worldview, it
> seems like GPS interference is becoming more prevalent instead of less.
> As a result, whether terrestrial or via satellite, it would be nice to
> have a second alternative in a different band where one could obtain a
> reasonably aligned 1PPS (+-1uSish).
> 
> I'm hopeful that eLORAN will result in this result.   I'm also curious
> about the GPS L5 signal once it becomes operational since that is far
> enough away frequency wise that one would hope that it wouldn't be affected
> by the same interference source.

The problem is that you have a moving target. As system speeds have gone up,
so have timing requirements. 10 us used to be the “drop dead” number for a 
cell system. Now it’s more likely to be 1 us (or less …). At 1 us, you need a 
timing reference that is sub-100 ns, pretty much all the time. Getting that 
from a
single terrestrial broadcast source is unlikely. 

The “simple" answer is the one already being used. Send the timing over fiber. 
Yes, there are problems with various implementations. They can be worked
out a *lot* easier than putting up a broadcast (and reception) system from 
scratch.

Bob



> 
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 6:19 PM jimlux  wrote:
> 
>> On 8/6/20 4:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
>>> If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
>>> failure modes:
>>> 
>>> 1) Loss of a satellite (or two).   This is why the constellations have
>> more
>>> satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
>>> 
>>> 2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
>>> software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure.   This is why you have
>>> multiple GNSS constellations.
>>> 
>>> 3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc.This is why you
>>> need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
>>> 
>>> For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
>>> to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band
>> from
>>> GNSS.  It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite
>> dish
>>> and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative
>> to
>>> GNSS.I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm
>> more
>>> thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
>>> 
>> 
>> Well, the GPS folks found that a Rb works better than a Cs, and both
>> need ground monitoring and updating.
>> 
>> One could rent a Single Channel Per Carrier transponder slot on a GEO
>> satellite, feed a carrier derived from your ensemble of clocks to the
>> uplink, and there you go.
>> 
>> My google-fu is failing and I can't find even a rough cost for such a
>> service.  Maybe something like $50k/month? $600k/year.
>> 
>> That 600k would probably buy you *one* space qualified Rb oscillator of
>> "good enough" performance, maybe.   USOs like used on GRAIL were
>> $1M/each sort of items in qty 4. And then you need some TWTAs to amplify
>> the signals for transmission - those are also pretty pricey.
>> 
>> And then the launch cost.. I happen to know (because I just bought it at
>> work) that you can push about 100-120kg to a GEO+1000km orbit for right
>> around $10M.  Rocketlabs might do 20-30kg to a similar orbit for half that.
>> 
>> 
>> All in all, I suspect that there are better uses of the $50M it would
>> cost - You could buy a LOT of Cesium clocks for terrestrial use.
>> 
>> If you're willing to do CSAC level performance, and you're willing to
>> have it be in LEO, so you see it a couple times a day for 20 minutes,
>> and you're willing to do some design and fab in your garage - under $5M.
>> 
>> Look up CHOMPTT  - CSAC and optical links.
>> 
>> 
>> https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4407=smallsat
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> - Forrest
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[paul swed]

I some tests I was fortunate to be a part of the eLloran system was able to
deliver very accurate time even in buildings. I won't quote numbers as it
was 5 years ago. But suspect the details are online. The extra data channel
allows for the transmission of various corrections.
Regards
Paul

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> I probably need to clarify where I'm coming from in relation to my previous
> message.
>
> I have a fair bit of background in dealing with using GPS clock sources for
> synchronization at communication sites.   Many of these sites are lucky to
> have a rubidium oscillator in place for holdover, although some do (usually
> the larger ones).  And we're talking about thousands and thousands and
> thousands of these sites.
>
> Where I was coming from is that at these sites, GPS can be a challenge -
> it's in a narrow band, very low signal, and, at least from my worldview, it
> seems like GPS interference is becoming more prevalent instead of less.
>  As a result, whether terrestrial or via satellite, it would be nice to
> have a second alternative in a different band where one could obtain a
> reasonably aligned 1PPS (+-1uSish).
>
> I'm hopeful that eLORAN will result in this result.   I'm also curious
> about the GPS L5 signal once it becomes operational since that is far
> enough away frequency wise that one would hope that it wouldn't be affected
> by the same interference source.
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 6:19 PM jimlux  wrote:
>
> > On 8/6/20 4:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
> > > If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a
> few
> > > failure modes:
> > >
> > > 1) Loss of a satellite (or two).   This is why the constellations have
> > more
> > > satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
> > >
> > > 2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
> > > software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure.   This is why you
> have
> > > multiple GNSS constellations.
> > >
> > > 3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc.This is why
> you
> > > need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
> > >
> > > For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a
> payload
> > > to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band
> > from
> > > GNSS.  It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite
> > dish
> > > and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative
> > to
> > > GNSS.I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm
> > more
> > > thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
> > >
> >
> > Well, the GPS folks found that a Rb works better than a Cs, and both
> > need ground monitoring and updating.
> >
> > One could rent a Single Channel Per Carrier transponder slot on a GEO
> > satellite, feed a carrier derived from your ensemble of clocks to the
> > uplink, and there you go.
> >
> > My google-fu is failing and I can't find even a rough cost for such a
> > service.  Maybe something like $50k/month? $600k/year.
> >
> > That 600k would probably buy you *one* space qualified Rb oscillator of
> > "good enough" performance, maybe.   USOs like used on GRAIL were
> > $1M/each sort of items in qty 4. And then you need some TWTAs to amplify
> > the signals for transmission - those are also pretty pricey.
> >
> > And then the launch cost.. I happen to know (because I just bought it at
> > work) that you can push about 100-120kg to a GEO+1000km orbit for right
> > around $10M.  Rocketlabs might do 20-30kg to a similar orbit for half
> that.
> >
> >
> > All in all, I suspect that there are better uses of the $50M it would
> > cost - You could buy a LOT of Cesium clocks for terrestrial use.
> >
> > If you're willing to do CSAC level performance, and you're willing to
> > have it be in LEO, so you see it a couple times a day for 20 minutes,
> > and you're willing to do some design and fab in your garage - under $5M.
> >
> > Look up CHOMPTT  - CSAC and optical links.
> >
> >
> >
> https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4407=smallsat
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> --
> - Forrest
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I probably need to clarify where I'm coming from in relation to my previous
message.

I have a fair bit of background in dealing with using GPS clock sources for
synchronization at communication sites.   Many of these sites are lucky to
have a rubidium oscillator in place for holdover, although some do (usually
the larger ones).  And we're talking about thousands and thousands and
thousands of these sites.

Where I was coming from is that at these sites, GPS can be a challenge -
it's in a narrow band, very low signal, and, at least from my worldview, it
seems like GPS interference is becoming more prevalent instead of less.
 As a result, whether terrestrial or via satellite, it would be nice to
have a second alternative in a different band where one could obtain a
reasonably aligned 1PPS (+-1uSish).

I'm hopeful that eLORAN will result in this result.   I'm also curious
about the GPS L5 signal once it becomes operational since that is far
enough away frequency wise that one would hope that it wouldn't be affected
by the same interference source.

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 6:19 PM jimlux  wrote:

> On 8/6/20 4:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
> > If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
> > failure modes:
> >
> > 1) Loss of a satellite (or two).   This is why the constellations have
> more
> > satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
> >
> > 2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
> > software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure.   This is why you have
> > multiple GNSS constellations.
> >
> > 3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc.This is why you
> > need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
> >
> > For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
> > to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band
> from
> > GNSS.  It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite
> dish
> > and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative
> to
> > GNSS.I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm
> more
> > thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
> >
>
> Well, the GPS folks found that a Rb works better than a Cs, and both
> need ground monitoring and updating.
>
> One could rent a Single Channel Per Carrier transponder slot on a GEO
> satellite, feed a carrier derived from your ensemble of clocks to the
> uplink, and there you go.
>
> My google-fu is failing and I can't find even a rough cost for such a
> service.  Maybe something like $50k/month? $600k/year.
>
> That 600k would probably buy you *one* space qualified Rb oscillator of
> "good enough" performance, maybe.   USOs like used on GRAIL were
> $1M/each sort of items in qty 4. And then you need some TWTAs to amplify
> the signals for transmission - those are also pretty pricey.
>
> And then the launch cost.. I happen to know (because I just bought it at
> work) that you can push about 100-120kg to a GEO+1000km orbit for right
> around $10M.  Rocketlabs might do 20-30kg to a similar orbit for half that.
>
>
> All in all, I suspect that there are better uses of the $50M it would
> cost - You could buy a LOT of Cesium clocks for terrestrial use.
>
> If you're willing to do CSAC level performance, and you're willing to
> have it be in LEO, so you see it a couple times a day for 20 minutes,
> and you're willing to do some design and fab in your garage - under $5M.
>
> Look up CHOMPTT  - CSAC and optical links.
>
>
> https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4407=smallsat
>
>
>
>
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-- 
- Forrest
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Aug 6, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) 
>  wrote:
> 
> If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
> failure modes:
> 
> 1) Loss of a satellite (or two).   This is why the constellations have more
> satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
> 
> 2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
> software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure.   This is why you have
> multiple GNSS constellations.
> 
> 3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc.This is why you
> need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
> 
> For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
> to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band from
> GNSS.  It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite dish
> and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative to
> GNSS.I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm more
> thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.

Right now GNSS systems run in somewhere between 3 and 5 “bands” depending
on how you count them. Various chunks of spectrum between 1 and 2 GHz get 
used by this or that system.

Bob



> 
> But, a good quality terrestrial option would be useful too.
> 
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:40 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>>> On Aug 6, 2020, at 4:40 PM, jimlux  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
 Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
>> frequency solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS)
>> constellations.  What's the other?
>>> 
>>> Transit?
>>> 
>>> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
>> commercial TV broadcast transponder.  The transponders on the satellite are
>> typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the uplinks
>> may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>>> 
>>> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
>> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
>> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>> 
>> Another couple of “up in the air” question:
>> 
>> Some of the systems transmit “stand alone” signals in each of two or three
>> different bands. Does each
>> band count as a separate time source?
>> 
>> If you know your location already, each sat in these systems can be a time
>> source all by it’s self. Do they
>> each count?
>> 
>> I guess is depends a lot on just how you look at redundancy ….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 ---
 (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
 KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
  On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
>> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
   Magnus
 Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
>> Europe
 seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
 performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
>> more
 satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
 and some other LEO satellites.
 But thats about it.
 What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
 turns a LED on if the stations active.
 Oh well another project in the someday pile.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
 On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson 
>> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
> 
> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best
>> up
> to date with the progress.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to
>> communicate
>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to
>> proposals I
>> have heard of in Europe.
>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> Space
>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never
>> mind
>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
>> Sorry for that editorial.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
> wrote:
>> 
>>> 

Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Hal Murray]

jim...@earthlink.net said:
> Transit?
> I don't believe they are still operational, though. 

Wikipedia says first operational satellite navigation system.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_(satellite)

Some/mot of the GPS history talks/articles give credit to it.

They had a portable receiver -- small enough to ship as excess baggage.  The 
wiki page has a neat section on using it to measure ice sheet drift in 
Antarctica.

---

I think there was timing via GEOS.  I seem to remember discussions of various 
hardware boxes becoming useless when it was turned off but I can't find any of 
the drivers I expect.  Maybe I'm confusing it with something else.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[jimlux]

On 8/6/20 4:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
failure modes:

1) Loss of a satellite (or two).   This is why the constellations have more
satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.

2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure.   This is why you have
multiple GNSS constellations.

3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc.This is why you
need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.

For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band from
GNSS.  It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite dish
and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative to
GNSS.I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm more
thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.



Well, the GPS folks found that a Rb works better than a Cs, and both 
need ground monitoring and updating.


One could rent a Single Channel Per Carrier transponder slot on a GEO 
satellite, feed a carrier derived from your ensemble of clocks to the 
uplink, and there you go.


My google-fu is failing and I can't find even a rough cost for such a 
service.  Maybe something like $50k/month? $600k/year.


That 600k would probably buy you *one* space qualified Rb oscillator of 
"good enough" performance, maybe.   USOs like used on GRAIL were 
$1M/each sort of items in qty 4. And then you need some TWTAs to amplify 
the signals for transmission - those are also pretty pricey.


And then the launch cost.. I happen to know (because I just bought it at 
work) that you can push about 100-120kg to a GEO+1000km orbit for right 
around $10M.  Rocketlabs might do 20-30kg to a similar orbit for half that.



All in all, I suspect that there are better uses of the $50M it would 
cost - You could buy a LOT of Cesium clocks for terrestrial use.


If you're willing to do CSAC level performance, and you're willing to 
have it be in LEO, so you see it a couple times a day for 20 minutes, 
and you're willing to do some design and fab in your garage - under $5M.


Look up CHOMPTT  - CSAC and optical links.

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4407=smallsat




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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Tim Shoppa]

Transit 5B-5 (from 1965) is nuclear powered and still transmitting. Nobody
has any idea how to pull out the time code, though!

https://twitter.com/coastal8049/status/1260802699051692033

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 4:43 PM jimlux  wrote:

> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> > Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> frequency solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> constellations.  What's the other?
>
> Transit?
>
> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>
>
> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> commercial TV broadcast transponder.  The transponders on the satellite
> are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
> uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>
> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > ---
> > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >
> >
> >  On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >   Magnus
> > Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> Europe
> > seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> > performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> more
> > satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> > and some other LEO satellites.
> > But thats about it.
> > What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> > turns a LED on if the stations active.
> > Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> >> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> >> to date with the progress.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> >>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> >>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> >>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> >>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
> I
> >>> have heard of in Europe.
> >>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> >>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> >>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> >>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> >> Space
> >>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> >>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> >>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> >>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> >>> Sorry for that editorial.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
>  Hi,
> 
>  Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> 
>  Cheers,
>  Magnus
> 
>  On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> >> air
> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> >> have
> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> > run. Nice.
> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> >> also.
> > Enjoy.
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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>  http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
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> 
> >>> ___
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> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > 

Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
failure modes:

1) Loss of a satellite (or two).   This is why the constellations have more
satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.

2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure.   This is why you have
multiple GNSS constellations.

3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc.This is why you
need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.

For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band from
GNSS.  It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite dish
and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative to
GNSS.I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm more
thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.

But, a good quality terrestrial option would be useful too.

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:40 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> > On Aug 6, 2020, at 4:40 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> >
> > On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> >> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> frequency solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> constellations.  What's the other?
> >
> > Transit?
> >
> > I don't believe they are still operational, though.
> >
> >
> > I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> commercial TV broadcast transponder.  The transponders on the satellite are
> typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the uplinks
> may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
> >
> > One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>
> Another couple of “up in the air” question:
>
> Some of the systems transmit “stand alone” signals in each of two or three
> different bands. Does each
> band count as a separate time source?
>
> If you know your location already, each sat in these systems can be a time
> source all by it’s self. Do they
> each count?
>
> I guess is depends a lot on just how you look at redundancy ….
>
> Bob
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> ---
> >> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> >> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >>   On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>Magnus
> >> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> Europe
> >> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> >> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> more
> >> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> >> and some other LEO satellites.
> >> But thats about it.
> >> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> >> turns a LED on if the stations active.
> >> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >> WB8TSL
> >> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson 
> wrote:
> >>> Hi Paul,
> >>>
> >>> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> >>> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best
> up
> >>> to date with the progress.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Magnus
> >>>
> >>> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
>  Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
>  Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
>  The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
>  alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to
> communicate
>  some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to
> proposals I
>  have heard of in Europe.
>  But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
>  interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
>  Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
>  satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> >>> Space
>  Force (Yes thats actually real now).
>  Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
>  operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never
> mind
>  that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
>  Sorry for that editorial.
>  Regards
>  Paul
>  WB8TSL
> 
>  On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
> >>> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter
> sites?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
> >
> > On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> >>> air
> >> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due 

Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[jimlux]

On 8/6/20 2:22 PM, Bill Notfaded wrote:

Isn't there also CDMA?  We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna.  This was handy for rooms that
couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all.  It was a good reference
and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
satellites.

Bill


A CDMA satellite? Iridium Next might be CDMA.. I've seen rooftop 
receivers for CDMA cellphone signals but they're terrestrial.




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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The problem with CDMA timing is that not all network operators sync their 
systems to GPS in all areas. That results in some really strange timing issue
when using one of the CDMA based devices. More or less, Symmetericom
got a *lot* of devices into the field before they found that out …..

Bob

> On Aug 6, 2020, at 5:22 PM, Bill Notfaded  wrote:
> 
> Isn't there also CDMA?  We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
> that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
> need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna.  This was handy for rooms that
> couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all.  It was a good reference
> and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
> satellites.
> 
> Bill
> 
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 1:43 PM jimlux  wrote:
> 
>> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
>>> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
>> frequency solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS)
>> constellations.  What's the other?
>> 
>> Transit?
>> 
>> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>> 
>> 
>> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
>> commercial TV broadcast transponder.  The transponders on the satellite
>> are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
>> uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>> 
>> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
>> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
>> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
>>> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
>> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>  Magnus
>>> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
>> Europe
>>> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
>>> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
>> more
>>> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
>>> and some other LEO satellites.
>>> But thats about it.
>>> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
>>> turns a LED on if the stations active.
>>> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson 
>> wrote:
>>> 
 Hi Paul,
 
 I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
 as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
 to date with the progress.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
 On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
>> I
> have heard of in Europe.
> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
 Space
> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> Sorry for that editorial.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
 wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>> 
>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
 air
>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
 have
>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
>> long
>>> run. Nice.
>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
 also.
>>> Enjoy.
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> 

Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Taka Kamiya via time-nuts]

I think CDMA in this case is part of a cellular phone network, not a satellite 
system.

--- 
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
 

On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 5:40:49 PM EDT, Bill Notfaded 
 wrote:  
 
 Isn't there also CDMA?  We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna.  This was handy for rooms that
couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all.  It was a good reference
and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
satellites.

Bill

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 1:43 PM jimlux  wrote:

> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> > Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> frequency solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> constellations.  What's the other?
>
> Transit?
>
> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>
>
> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> commercial TV broadcast transponder.  The transponders on the satellite
> are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
> uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>
> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > ---
> > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >
> >
> >      On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >  Magnus
> > Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> Europe
> > seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> > performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> more
> > satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> > and some other LEO satellites.
> > But thats about it.
> > What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> > turns a LED on if the stations active.
> > Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> >> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> >> to date with the progress.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> >>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> >>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> >>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> >>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
> I
> >>> have heard of in Europe.
> >>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> >>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> >>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> >>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> >> Space
> >>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> >>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> >>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> >>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> >>> Sorry for that editorial.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
>  Hi,
> 
>  Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> 
>  Cheers,
>  Magnus
> 
>  On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> >> air
> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> >> have
> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> > run. Nice.
> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> >> also.
> > Enjoy.
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
>  http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>  ___
>  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>  To unsubscribe, go to
>  http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>  and follow the instructions there.
> 
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- 

Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[shouldbe q931]

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:40 PM Bill Notfaded  wrote:
>
> Isn't there also CDMA?  We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
> that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
> need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna.  This was handy for rooms that
> couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all.  It was a good reference
> and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
> satellites.
>
> Bill

Unless I have misunderstood, CDMA on an Endrun would be a cellular
receiver, not satellite...

Cheers

Arne

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[paul swed]

Transit has been off the air some 20+ years. It really was one of the
beginnings of satellite navigation.
Regards Paul

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 5:40 PM Bill Notfaded  wrote:

> Isn't there also CDMA?  We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
> that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
> need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna.  This was handy for rooms that
> couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all.  It was a good reference
> and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
> satellites.
>
> Bill
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 1:43 PM jimlux  wrote:
>
> > On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> > > Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> > frequency solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> > constellations.  What's the other?
> >
> > Transit?
> >
> > I don't believe they are still operational, though.
> >
> >
> > I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> > commercial TV broadcast transponder.  The transponders on the satellite
> > are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
> > uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial
> broadcast.
> >
> > One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> > location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> > "common view" kinds of time transfer.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> > > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> > >
> > >
> > >  On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> > paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >   Magnus
> > > Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> > Europe
> > > seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> > > performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> > more
> > > satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the
> tests
> > > and some other LEO satellites.
> > > But thats about it.
> > > What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> > > turns a LED on if the stations active.
> > > Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> > > Regards
> > > Paul
> > > WB8TSL
> > >
> > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Paul,
> > >>
> > >> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> > >> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best
> up
> > >> to date with the progress.
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Magnus
> > >>
> > >> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> > >>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> > >>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> > >>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> > >>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to
> communicate
> > >>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to
> proposals
> > I
> > >>> have heard of in Europe.
> > >>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> > >>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> > >>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> > >>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> > >> Space
> > >>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> > >>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year
> to
> > >>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never
> mind
> > >>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> > >>> Sorry for that editorial.
> > >>> Regards
> > >>> Paul
> > >>> WB8TSL
> > >>>
> > >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson  >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>
> >  Hi,
> > 
> >  Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter
> sites?
> > 
> >  Cheers,
> >  Magnus
> > 
> >  On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on
> the
> > >> air
> > > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> > >> have
> > > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> > long
> > > run. Nice.
> > > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> > >> also.
> > > Enjoy.
> > > Paul
> > > WB8TSL
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> >  http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >  ___
> >  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >  To unsubscribe, go to
> >  

Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Bill Notfaded]

Isn't there also CDMA?  We used a EndRun Technologies system not long ago
that used a small short antenna that could be located inside and didn't
need a cable to the roof for a GPS antenna.  This was handy for rooms that
couldn't have anything penetrate the walls at all.  It was a good reference
and ntp server we used for years that only used time reference from CDMA
satellites.

Bill

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 1:43 PM jimlux  wrote:

> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> > Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> frequency solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> constellations.  What's the other?
>
> Transit?
>
> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>
>
> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> commercial TV broadcast transponder.  The transponders on the satellite
> are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
> uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>
> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > ---
> > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >
> >
> >  On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >   Magnus
> > Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> Europe
> > seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> > performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> more
> > satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> > and some other LEO satellites.
> > But thats about it.
> > What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> > turns a LED on if the stations active.
> > Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> >> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> >> to date with the progress.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> >>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> >>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> >>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> >>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
> I
> >>> have heard of in Europe.
> >>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> >>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> >>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> >>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> >> Space
> >>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> >>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> >>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> >>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> >>> Sorry for that editorial.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
>  Hi,
> 
>  Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> 
>  Cheers,
>  Magnus
> 
>  On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> >> air
> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> >> have
> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> > run. Nice.
> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> >> also.
> > Enjoy.
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
>  http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>  ___
>  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>  To unsubscribe, go to
>  http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>  and follow the instructions there.
> 
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- 

Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Aug 6, 2020, at 4:40 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
>> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency 
>> solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations.  
>> What's the other?
> 
> Transit?
> 
> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
> 
> 
> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a commercial TV 
> broadcast transponder.  The transponders on the satellite are typically bent 
> pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the uplinks may or may not 
> have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
> 
> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable location 
> (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do "common view" 
> kinds of time transfer.

Another couple of “up in the air” question:

Some of the systems transmit “stand alone” signals in each of two or three 
different bands. Does each
band count as a separate time source? 

If you know your location already, each sat in these systems can be a time 
source all by it’s self. Do they 
each count?

I guess is depends a lot on just how you look at redundancy ….

Bob


> 
> 
> 
> 
>> ---
>> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
>> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
>>   On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed 
>>  wrote:
>>Magnus
>> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
>> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
>> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
>> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
>> and some other LEO satellites.
>> But thats about it.
>> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
>> turns a LED on if the stations active.
>> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson  wrote:
>>> Hi Paul,
>>> 
>>> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
>>> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
>>> to date with the progress.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Magnus
>>> 
>>> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
 Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
 Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
 The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
 alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
 some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
 have heard of in Europe.
 But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
 interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
 Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
 satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
>>> Space
 Force (Yes thats actually real now).
 Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
 operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
 that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
 Sorry for that editorial.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
 
 On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
>>> wrote:
 
> Hi,
> 
> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
>>> air
>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
>>> have
>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
>> run. Nice.
>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
>>> also.
>> Enjoy.
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
 and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> 

Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[paul swed]

Both China and India also have Geostationary satellites for Navigation.
It compliments their MEO satellites.
Regards
Paul.

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 4:43 PM jimlux  wrote:

> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> > Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> frequency solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> constellations.  What's the other?
>
> Transit?
>
> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
>
>
> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> commercial TV broadcast transponder.  The transponders on the satellite
> are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
> uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
>
> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > ---
> > (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> > KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >
> >
> >  On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >   Magnus
> > Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> Europe
> > seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> > performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> more
> > satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> > and some other LEO satellites.
> > But thats about it.
> > What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> > turns a LED on if the stations active.
> > Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> >> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> >> to date with the progress.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> >>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> >>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> >>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> >>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
> I
> >>> have heard of in Europe.
> >>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> >>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> >>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> >>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> >> Space
> >>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> >>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> >>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> >>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> >>> Sorry for that editorial.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
>  Hi,
> 
>  Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> 
>  Cheers,
>  Magnus
> 
>  On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> >> air
> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> >> have
> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> > run. Nice.
> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> >> also.
> > Enjoy.
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
>  http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>  ___
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[paul swed]

Iridium but not available for general use.
But there are actually more proposals then GPS and Iridium.
Some might call it Piles-of-satellites. LEO stuff. $$$
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:48 PM Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency
> solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations.
> What's the other?
>
> ---
> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
>
>
> On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Magnus
> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> and some other LEO satellites.
> But thats about it.
> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> turns a LED on if the stations active.
> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> > as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> > to date with the progress.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
> >
> > On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> > > Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> > > Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> > > The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> > > alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> > > some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals
> I
> > > have heard of in Europe.
> > > But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> > > interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> > > Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> > > satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> > Space
> > > Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> > > Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> > > operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> > > that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> > > Sorry for that editorial.
> > > Regards
> > > Paul
> > > WB8TSL
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Magnus
> > >>
> > >> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > >>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > >>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> > air
> > >>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> > have
> > >>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > >>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> long
> > >>> run. Nice.
> > >>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> > also.
> > >>> Enjoy.
> > >>> Paul
> > >>> WB8TSL
> > >>> ___
> > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > >>> and follow the instructions there.
> > >> ___
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> > >> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > >> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>
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> > > To unsubscribe, go to
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> > > and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The Russians put up the Gloanss system many years ago. It took a while to get 
all 
the kinks out of it. It has been running pretty well for over a decade:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS 

The European Union is in the process of fleshing out the Galileo system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation) 


The Chinese have their BeiDou system still in the “getting going” phase (with 
some 
level of functionality being delivered for a number of years):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeiDou 

All are aimed at being world wide / stand alone “competitors” to GPS. All 
deliver
timing along with navigation. 

Bob


> On Aug 6, 2020, at 12:17 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency 
> solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations.  What's 
> the other?  
> 
> --- 
> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> 
> 
>On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed 
>  wrote:  
> 
> Magnus
> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
> and some other LEO satellites.
> But thats about it.
> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> turns a LED on if the stations active.
> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson  wrote:
> 
>> Hi Paul,
>> 
>> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
>> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
>> to date with the progress.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>> 
>> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
>>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
>>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
>>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
>>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
>>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
>>> have heard of in Europe.
>>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
>>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
>>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
>>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
>> Space
>>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
>>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
>>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
>>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
>>> Sorry for that editorial.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
>> wrote:
>>> 
 Hi,
 
 Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
 On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
>> air
> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
>> have
> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> run. Nice.
> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
>> also.
> Enjoy.
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
 http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
 and follow the instructions there.
 
>>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[jimlux]

On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:

Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency 
solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations.  What's the 
other?


Transit?

I don't believe they are still operational, though.


I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a 
commercial TV broadcast transponder.  The transponders on the satellite 
are typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the 
uplinks may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.


One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable 
location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do 
"common view" kinds of time transfer.







---
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
  


 On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed 
 wrote:
  
  Magnus

Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson  wrote:


Hi Paul,

I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:

Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or

Space

Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 

wrote:



Hi,

Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?

Cheers,
Magnus

On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:

Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the

air

intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they

have

lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days

also.

Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Taka Kamiya via time-nuts]

Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and frequency 
solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS) constellations.  What's 
the other?  

--- 
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
 

On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed 
 wrote:  
 
 Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> to date with the progress.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> > Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> > Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> > The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> > alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> > some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
> > have heard of in Europe.
> > But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> > interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> > Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> > satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> Space
> > Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> > Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> > operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> > that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> > Sorry for that editorial.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> air
> >>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> have
> >>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> >>> run. Nice.
> >>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> also.
> >>> Enjoy.
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[paul swed]

Magnus
Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read Europe
seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or more
satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the tests
and some other LEO satellites.
But thats about it.
What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
turns a LED on if the stations active.
Oh well another project in the someday pile.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
> to date with the progress.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> > Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> > Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> > The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> > alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> > some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
> > have heard of in Europe.
> > But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> > interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> > Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> > satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> Space
> > Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> > Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> > operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> > that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> > Sorry for that editorial.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> air
> >>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they
> have
> >>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> >>> run. Nice.
> >>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> also.
> >>> Enjoy.
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Paul,

I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on time-nuts,
as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best up
to date with the progress.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
> have heard of in Europe.
> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space
> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> Sorry for that editorial.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
>>> run. Nice.
>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
>>> Enjoy.
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> ___
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>> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

We seem to be going through another stage in our technological evolution
right now as far as redundancy goes.

To explain what I mean:

A long time ago things were so unreliable that everyone knew that you
needed two systems, even if one was the watch in your pocket and a compass
and sextant for PNT.

As technological systems got better and better somehow we forgot this
lesson.   GPS is so reliable that people don't even think about the
possibility that it might go away, so we got complacent about maintaining
the old systems to maintain a backup.  Things like LORAN C were cut for
'cost savings' reasons, since why keep a backup for a system that never
fails?  I can't fault the logic, assuming one buys the perfect
reliability premise (no I don't buy this as at all).

Recently it's become obvious there are lots of ways that our technology can
fail.   Not just GPS but I could cite other examples not relevant to this
list.   So we've now entered the phase where we're trying to figure out
what to do to regain the capabilities we carelessly discarded in the past
based on a false premise of the new stuff being perfectly reliable.

Fortunately for PNT, the US government definitely signaled that the
redundancy must be ground-based when they passed the "National Timing
Resilience and Security Act".  So hopefully we don't have to worry about
the second system being space-based.  Heck, we already have at least 2
space-based alternatives in orbit.

They were supposed to get this in place within 2 years, which I think means
the end of 2020 if I'm reading the dates right.   Since it's already
August, I doubt they'll meet the deadline.  Hopefully, with the testing
they're doing, it won't be much longer.

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:15 PM paul swed  wrote:

> Jim
> Thanks for the insights. Oh I am not selling it for emp. I am simply saying
> no would be general wants a rusty old steel tower as a career booster. I
> remember when LORAN C was shut down the president said he was saving $36M a
> year. Thats drop in the old bucket. I also remember the LORAN C antennas on
> mobile tower sites for timing along with GPS.
> Thanks again Jim.
> Fire up that LORAN C receiver and see what you can hear.
> Regards
> Paul
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:41 PM jimlux  wrote:
>
> > On 8/5/20 12:40 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
> > > Hi Paul and Magnus;
> > > Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a
> > ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair.
> >
> > The vulnerability of GNSS systems to EMP attacks is not all that high -
> > GPS is, after all, a DoD essential system, and lives in a ridiculously
> > high radiation environment in MEO - They're also hard to neutrons (based
> > on published specs for components in the GNSS satellites).
> >
> > In most scenarios, LEO satellites get hammered, MEO and GEO not so much.
> >
> > https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531197.pdf
> >
> > "GPS and GEO satellites are threatened only by the very high yield (~ 10
> > Mt) detonations of our trial set."
> >
> > I'll note that the largest the US has detonated in space are the Teak
> > and Orange shots 3.8Mt (at <100km), and only Starfish Prime (1.4Mt) at
> > 400km cased significant problems.
> >
> > The usual "use case" for EMP is to affect aircraft and ground based
> > assets, and the burst height is low (so the air around the burst is
> > denser - more particle interactions = more current = more field) -
> > conversely, this reduces the flux at 20,000 km (where GPS is) and
> > 36,000km (GEO)
> >
> > Ultimately, it's that your victim is a Long, long ways away from
> > whatever the phenomenon is.
> >
> > I've been doing a lot of analysis on EMI/RFI effects on precision timing
> > in GEO+1000km - we are looking at bursts from the sun, and timing it
> > with GNSS satellites.  Things that I agonized over (high power shortwave
> > broadcasters radiating 500kW into a 24dBi curtain array) in my LEO
> > satellite at 500km just become a non-issue at 37,000 km.  Inverse square
> > law really helps.
> >
> >
> > Anyway, that DTIC report will give you plenty to geek out over.
> >
> >
> > Yes, there would be significant disruption in timing accuracy due to the
> > ionized particles - I'm not sure if dual frequency would be enough to
> > compensate.
> >
> >
> > I think alternate timing and nav systems are good idea, but selling it
> > as "GPS will be knocked out by EMP" isn't going to get you very far.
> >
> >
> > > Cheers;
> > >
> > > Tom Knox
> > >
> > > act...@hotmail.com
> > >
> &

Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[paul swed]

Jim
Thanks for the insights. Oh I am not selling it for emp. I am simply saying
no would be general wants a rusty old steel tower as a career booster. I
remember when LORAN C was shut down the president said he was saving $36M a
year. Thats drop in the old bucket. I also remember the LORAN C antennas on
mobile tower sites for timing along with GPS.
Thanks again Jim.
Fire up that LORAN C receiver and see what you can hear.
Regards
Paul

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:41 PM jimlux  wrote:

> On 8/5/20 12:40 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
> > Hi Paul and Magnus;
> > Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a
> ground base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair.
>
> The vulnerability of GNSS systems to EMP attacks is not all that high -
> GPS is, after all, a DoD essential system, and lives in a ridiculously
> high radiation environment in MEO - They're also hard to neutrons (based
> on published specs for components in the GNSS satellites).
>
> In most scenarios, LEO satellites get hammered, MEO and GEO not so much.
>
> https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531197.pdf
>
> "GPS and GEO satellites are threatened only by the very high yield (~ 10
> Mt) detonations of our trial set."
>
> I'll note that the largest the US has detonated in space are the Teak
> and Orange shots 3.8Mt (at <100km), and only Starfish Prime (1.4Mt) at
> 400km cased significant problems.
>
> The usual "use case" for EMP is to affect aircraft and ground based
> assets, and the burst height is low (so the air around the burst is
> denser - more particle interactions = more current = more field) -
> conversely, this reduces the flux at 20,000 km (where GPS is) and
> 36,000km (GEO)
>
> Ultimately, it's that your victim is a Long, long ways away from
> whatever the phenomenon is.
>
> I've been doing a lot of analysis on EMI/RFI effects on precision timing
> in GEO+1000km - we are looking at bursts from the sun, and timing it
> with GNSS satellites.  Things that I agonized over (high power shortwave
> broadcasters radiating 500kW into a 24dBi curtain array) in my LEO
> satellite at 500km just become a non-issue at 37,000 km.  Inverse square
> law really helps.
>
>
> Anyway, that DTIC report will give you plenty to geek out over.
>
>
> Yes, there would be significant disruption in timing accuracy due to the
> ionized particles - I'm not sure if dual frequency would be enough to
> compensate.
>
>
> I think alternate timing and nav systems are good idea, but selling it
> as "GPS will be knocked out by EMP" isn't going to get you very far.
>
>
> > Cheers;
> >
> > Tom Knox
> >
> > act...@hotmail.com
> >
> > "Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both
> MLK and Albert Einstein
> >
> > ____________
> > From: time-nuts  on behalf of paul
> swed 
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600
> >
> > Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> > Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> > The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
> > alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
> > some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
> > have heard of in Europe.
> > But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> > interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> > Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> > satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or
> Space
> > Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> > Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
> > operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
> > that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> > Sorry for that editorial.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Magnus
> >>
> >> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the
> air
> >>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Du

Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[jimlux]

On 8/5/20 12:40 PM, Tom Knox wrote:

Hi Paul and Magnus;
Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a ground 
base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair.


The vulnerability of GNSS systems to EMP attacks is not all that high - 
GPS is, after all, a DoD essential system, and lives in a ridiculously 
high radiation environment in MEO - They're also hard to neutrons (based 
on published specs for components in the GNSS satellites).


In most scenarios, LEO satellites get hammered, MEO and GEO not so much.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a531197.pdf

"GPS and GEO satellites are threatened only by the very high yield (~ 10 
Mt) detonations of our trial set."


I'll note that the largest the US has detonated in space are the Teak 
and Orange shots 3.8Mt (at <100km), and only Starfish Prime (1.4Mt) at 
400km cased significant problems.


The usual "use case" for EMP is to affect aircraft and ground based 
assets, and the burst height is low (so the air around the burst is 
denser - more particle interactions = more current = more field) - 
conversely, this reduces the flux at 20,000 km (where GPS is) and 
36,000km (GEO)


Ultimately, it's that your victim is a Long, long ways away from 
whatever the phenomenon is.


I've been doing a lot of analysis on EMI/RFI effects on precision timing 
in GEO+1000km - we are looking at bursts from the sun, and timing it 
with GNSS satellites.  Things that I agonized over (high power shortwave 
broadcasters radiating 500kW into a 24dBi curtain array) in my LEO 
satellite at 500km just become a non-issue at 37,000 km.  Inverse square 
law really helps.



Anyway, that DTIC report will give you plenty to geek out over.


Yes, there would be significant disruption in timing accuracy due to the 
ionized particles - I'm not sure if dual frequency would be enough to 
compensate.



I think alternate timing and nav systems are good idea, but selling it 
as "GPS will be knocked out by EMP" isn't going to get you very far.




Cheers;

Tom Knox

act...@hotmail.com

"Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both MLK 
and Albert Einstein


From: time-nuts  on behalf of paul swed 

Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson  wrote:


Hi,

Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?

Cheers,
Magnus

On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:

Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Tom Knox]

Hi Paul and Magnus;
Not to mention one space EMP would kill all the Sat systems, where a ground 
base system even if affected would be easy to access for repair.
Cheers;

Tom Knox

act...@hotmail.com

"Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both MLK 
and Albert Einstein


From: time-nuts  on behalf of paul swed 

Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:21 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> > run. Nice.
> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
> > Enjoy.
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[paul swed]

Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of an
alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to communicate
some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to proposals I
have heard of in Europe.
But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force or Space
Force (Yes thats actually real now).
Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year to
operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never mind
that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
Sorry for that editorial.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> > Hello to fellow time nuts.
> > Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
> > intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
> > lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> > The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> > run. Nice.
> > Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
> > Enjoy.
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter sites?

Cheers,
Magnus

On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
> run. Nice.
> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
> Enjoy.
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.

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[time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

[paul swed]

Hello to fellow time nuts.
Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on the air
intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm they have
lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a long
run. Nice.
Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days also.
Enjoy.
Paul
WB8TSL
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