Re: [tips] Seeds of contemplation

2009-08-23 Thread Michael Smith
No.

--Mike

On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 8:44 AM, michael sylvester msylves...@copper.netwrote:


 In the final analysis,are we just our neurotransmitters? nothing
 more,nothing less!
 Michael Sylvester,PhD
 Daytona Beach,Florida

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Re: [tips] Seeds of contemplation

2009-08-13 Thread Christopher D. Green
michael sylvester wrote:


 If scientific findings represent flawless objectivity,why do need 
 replications?

No one of significance ever said that scientific findings represent 
flawless objectivity. What they (should have) said is that the 
scientific approach is our best bet of finding out what is really going 
on in the world. Observation is still subject to all of the criticisms 
that were heaped upon it by Idealists from Plato on down to the present 
day (we make errors, we can be deceived, our predispositions sometimes 
overwhelm our senses, etc.). Replication helps us to catch some of those 
flaws. Science is not particularly efficient, and it is certainly not 
perfect. It is merely better than everything else we have tried.

Regards,
-- 

Christopher D. Green
Department of Psychology
York University
Toronto, ON M3J 1P3
Canada

 

416-736-2100 ex. 66164
chri...@yorku.ca
http://www.yorku.ca/christo/

==


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re: [tips] Seeds of contemplation

2009-08-13 Thread Mike Palij
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:08:12 -0700, Allen Esterson wrote:
Michael Sylvester wrote:
If scientific findings represent flawless objectivity, 

A curious statement if there ever was one.  Is Dr. Sylvester actually
posing a counterfactual in contrast to referring to actual beliefs or
conditions?  His statement seems to have more in common with
something like:

If pigs had wings

why do need replications?

One would, of course, have to be clearer by what one means by 
flawless objectivity, but it appears to embody a highly deterministic
viewpoint about the nature of reality, that is, if everything that needs
to be known about a phenomenon is known AND THERE IS NO
SOURCE OF RANDOM OR SYSTEMATIC ERROR, then a
single demonstration of an outcome in the context of an experimental 
design would be sufficient and the need for replication would be negligible 
because under these conditions it is expected that the same result would 
always be expected (recall the recent thread on whether coin-tossing 
representts a real random process; when all relevant variables are controlled 
and environmental conditions are kept constant, only one outcome will be
produced).

If you presuppose an erroneous premise as here, the question is redundant. 

Well, it is not clear what the premise is and given Dr. Sylvester's
non-eurocentric mode of thinking about things it is not clear that the
concepts of error, truth, or meaningfulness (outside of a limited
community) are relevant.  He could, however, be stating a counterfactual
in which case the truth of the premise is not the issue: start by assuming
that the premise is true and then extrapolate/deduce what follows.

If, however, Dr. Sylvester's conditional statement is actually meant to
refer to actual scientific practice, then it would be worthwhile for him
to provide cases where replications are not necessary.

Working scientists, on the other hand, might view Dr. Sylvester's statement
as either (a) bizzare because few scientific findings are based on flawless
objectivity (flawed objectivity, that is, observations are made with error and 
this
is common practice [psychometrics is concerned with estimating and controlling
different types of error] because there are few situations where errors can
be forced to be zero or close to zero) or (b) the purpose of experimental design
is to identifiy all of the variables that may affect a causal relationship that 
is the
focus of the experimental design and attempt to control for them or minimize
the effect of these nuisance variable on variables involved in the causal 
relationship under study.

A researcher with good experimental design background will be familiar with
the threats to internal validity which would undermine one's claim that a causal
relationship exists, threats to external validity which would limit the extent 
to
which the causal relationship applies, threats to statistical conclusion 
validity
which would undermine whether one's analaysis of the causal relationship is
in fact statistically valid, and so on with other types of validities such as
construct validity, etc.

Scientific findings are unlike mere anecdotes where the focus is on how good 
a story is and whether our cognitive heuristics readily process the story 
points 
(e.g., does the story match up with concepts activated by the representative 
heuristics, does the availability heuristic work to activate relevant recent 
event 
to serve as partial support for the story, does the simulation heuristic allow 
one to 
construct the causal thread that connects one elements/episodes in the anecdote 
into a coherent thread that holds all of the statements made in the anecdote 
together?).
People may believe that what they say is true, honest, accurate, and sincere.
Of course, as research on eyewitness testimony has shown, belief in what one
thinks and the factual foundation for what one thinks are two different things.

As an exercise, I found suggest watching Akira Kurosawa's film Rashomon.
In one sense it is a police procedure like a CSI or an Land  Order episode:
a crime was committed and the authorities must decide who is responsible.
The trick that Kurosawa uses is that of the unreliable narrator, that is, the
narrator in a story, play, film cannot be trusted to provide an accurate, 
factual,
and honest narration (a reliable narrator obeys Grices conversational maxims
while an unreliable narrator violates them and more); see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator
Kurosawa embeds narrations within narrations and the naive film view will easily
lose track of who is relating what (it is the woodcutter who provides the master
narration and relates what he remembers of the narration of other actors -- but
it becomes clear that he is an unreliable narrator because he does not want to
admit to the crime *HE* committed, namely, stealing a pearl handle knife that
may have been used in killing one of the main characters).

The film Rashomon is a great story 

Re: [tips] Seeds of contemplation

2009-08-13 Thread Jim Clark
Hi

I would put it a little stronger than Christopher.  

Science strives for complete objectivity.  

Science provides mechanisms to identify and correct lack of objectivity (e.g., 
publication, replication, double blind studies, statistical tests, ...).

Science thereby provides pathways to an accurate (i.e., objective) 
understanding of the natural world, including human behavior and experience.  
But the paths are often long and circuitous, which is perhaps why so many 
people prefer quick albeit fallible alternatives (e.g., revelation, tradition / 
culture, intuition, anecdotal evidence, political pundits, ...).

I think we need to be cautious as scientists about giving an unduly pessimistic 
view of our enterprise.

Take care
Jim

James M. Clark
Professor of Psychology
204-786-9757
204-774-4134 Fax
j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca

 Christopher D. Green chri...@yorku.ca 13-Aug-09 8:21:11 AM 
michael sylvester wrote:


 If scientific findings represent flawless objectivity,why do need 
 replications?

No one of significance ever said that scientific findings represent 
flawless objectivity. What they (should have) said is that the 
scientific approach is our best bet of finding out what is really going 
on in the world. Observation is still subject to all of the criticisms 
that were heaped upon it by Idealists from Plato on down to the present 
day (we make errors, we can be deceived, our predispositions sometimes 
overwhelm our senses, etc.). Replication helps us to catch some of those 
flaws. Science is not particularly efficient, and it is certainly not 
perfect. It is merely better than everything else we have tried.

Regards,
-- 

Christopher D. Green
Department of Psychology
York University
Toronto, ON M3J 1P3
Canada

 

416-736-2100 ex. 66164
chri...@yorku.ca 
http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ 

==


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Re: [tips] Seeds of contemplation

2009-08-13 Thread Michael Smith
Because scientific findings do not represent flawless objectivity.

The ideal observer is a myth

--Mike

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:26 PM, michael sylvester
msylves...@copper.netwrote:


 If scientific findings represent flawless objectivity,why do need
 replications?

 Send me something.

 Michael Sylvester,PhD
 Daytona Beach,Florida

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 To make changes to your subscription contact:

 Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)



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