Re:[tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
Mike Palij writes: Again, to be clear, the CBS miniseries controversy seems to match some of the characterizations that Joan mentioned in her post but it possible that there is some other project that actually was cancelled. Joan Warmbold wrote: ….do any of you recall that a production of Hitler's life was planned for HBO or PBS but was canceled as it provided some objective information about his abusive childhood. I guess many folks prefer to believe the bad seed theory as opposed to the influence of violence in a child's early years. Please do check out the sources provided below as my guess is that many of you are not aware of Hitler's brutal childhood. Joan's second sentence is clearly (to me at least) suggesting that the miniseries was cancelled not just because it cited *Hitler's* abusive childhood but as more general evidence that the notion that childhood abuse may cause abusive behaviour in adulthood was being suppressed. But the items Mike cites are *specific to Hitler*, and indicate concern about how emphasis on his childhood experiences might be interpreted in some degree an excuse for *Hitler's* murderous behaviour, as the New York Times article to which Mike linked makes clear: By focusing on Hitler's younger years, these critics worry, the program will not include the main and essential ingredients of Hitler's wickedness: Auschwitz, the Gestapo, the Final Solution, 50 million dead across Europe. And by leaving all that out, some people say, a film focusing on Hitler's childhood might give him a kind of abuse excuse, portraying him as a lonely, mistreated child of the sort for whom today's youths might even experience a degree of fellow feeling. To generalise from the unique case of concerns about how the monstrous Hitler is depicted in a TV documentary to the (surely implied) suggestion that the motivation was within a context of suppression of the very notion of an abusive childhood being a cause of violent behaviour in adulthood seems to me to be an unjustified extrapolation. I don't know what the situation is in the States, but the notion that violent people will very likely have had an abusive childhood is frequently expressed in the media in the UK. I find it hard to believe it is so very different in the States, in which case it would indicate that the case of the Hitler documentary is highly specific to Hitler, and shouldn't be generalised to suggest a virtual conspiracy to suppress the notion itself. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org -- From: Mike Palij m...@nyu.edu Subject:Re: Raising Hitler to be a nice person Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:41:51 -0400 On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 01:27:36 -0700, Allen Esterson wrote: Thank, Mike, for your very comprehensive response to my queries regarding Joan's posting. Again, to be clear, the CBS miniseries controversy seems to match some of the characterizations that Joan mentioned in her post but it possible that there is some other project that actually was cancelled. Mike writes: Kershaw's biography paints a bleak life for the young Hitler, for example, quote Hitler's sister and saying that his bad relationship with his father resulted in a sound thrashing every day; see: http://books.google.com/books?id=nV-N10gyoFwClpg=PA13dq=kershaw%20hitler%20thrashing%20harshnesspg=PA13#v=onepageqf=false (bottom of page 12-13). Thanks (again) for that, Mike. I've ordered Kershaw's book, but in the meantime, could you give me the reference citation for the above quote from Hitler's sister. Although parts of Kershaw is availabe for preview, the notes section is not but the contextual info says that it was an interview done on June 5, 1946 by the U.S. Army at Berchtesgaden. Harold Marcuse has a link to this interview but it leads to a dead geocities page on Yahoo. A Google search turns up the following webpage which contains the interview and Kershaw's quote is located about midpage (there may be other websites that have more formal/academic connections); see: http://www.oradour.info/appendix/paula01.htm The relevant paragraph is this: |It was especially my brother Adolf, who challenged my father |to extreme harshness and who got his sound thrashing every day. |He was a scrubby little rogue, and all attempts of his father to |thrash him for his rudeness and to cause him to love the profession |of an official of the estate were in vain. How often on the other |hand did my mother caress him and try to obtain with her kindness, |were the father could not succeed with harshness! At the bottom of the page are comments by the interview about his (?) assessment of Paula (Wolf) Hitler's (she changed her name from Hitler to Wolf at some point during the 1930s) veracity. Though most of what she said appears to be consistent with her oath to tell the truth, some of her statements
[tips] Alice Miller (was Raising Hitler to be a 'nice person' )
Mike Palij writes about Alice Miller: It seems that a general thesis that Miller is asserting is that adult problems have their roots in childhood experience and one doesn't have to be Freudian to have such a view (though that is Miller's chosen theory). Leaving aside that, once she had set out on her series of books for which she gained fame, Miller no longer regarded herself as a Freudian, the whole basis of her books is that she goes beyond the *general* notion that adult problems have their roots in childhood experience, to espouse a very *specific* contention, as expressed by Beth Benoit when she wrote of Miller's unflagging contention that childhood physical abuse (the description of which she paints with a pretty broad brush) causes violence and problems in society and within a person. I would add that Miller argues for this being the *exclusive* cause of violence and problems in society and within the person, and it is on this very exclusivity that her fame is based. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org -- From: Mike Palij m...@nyu.edu Subject:Re: Raising Hitler to be a nice person Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:41:51 -0400 On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 01:27:36 -0700, […] I can't comment generally on her historical research, but on the seduction theory episode she gets just about everything wrong. In regard to her therapeutic approach, her contention is that virtually all the evils that beset humankind, outside of events in the natural world (for want of a better expression), are the result of the experiencing of physical and emotional abuse in childhood. Her methodology is such that she always, apparently without exception, finds this to be the case, both with individual patients and in the case of historical figures. To cite just one example, in *Banished Knowledge* she writes that one specific case confirmed something I have long suspected: A child's autism is a response to his environment, the last possible response open to a child. Well, her explanation aside, the larger issue is what to make of early childhood experience and to what extent do they have lifelong effects. It seems that a general thesis that Miller is asserting is that adult problems have their roots in childhood experience and one doesn't have to be Freudian to have such a view (though that is Miller's chosen theory). Regardless of theoretical framework, there is the question of what is the effect of early childhood abuse (i.e., physical, sexual, emotional), normal punishment by parents who believe in the power of corporal punishment, and childrearing practices that are stern or authoritarian. Given what Lovaas originally said about his ability to change a 4-5 year old, here is what Miller had to say (quoting from Miller's YMHA presentation): |At that time I quoted in For Your Own Good at length the |pedagogical advice given to parents in Germany a century ago, |and detailed what I believed to be a connection between the |systematic cruelty of these methods and the systematic cruelty |of Hitler's executioners forty years later. The numerous and |widely-read tracts by Dr. Daniel Gottlieb Schreber, the inventor |of the Schreberg?rten (the German word for small allotments), |are of major interest here. Some of his books ran to as many as |forty editions around the year 1860, and their central concern |was to instruct parents in the systematic upbringing of infants |from the very first day of life. Many people—motivated by what |they thought to be the best of intentions—complied with the |advice given them by Schreber and other authors about how |best to raise their children. Today we would call it a systematic |instruction in child persecution and maltreatment. One of Schreber's |convictions was that when babies cry they should be made to |desist by the use of spanking, assuring his readers that such a |procedure is only necessary once, or at the most twice, and |then one is master of the child for all time. From then on, one |look, one single gesture will suffice. Above all, these books |counseled that the newborn child should be forced from the |very first day to obey and to refrain from crying. | |We all know—or, today, we should all know—that physical |punishment only produces obedient children but cannot prevent |them from becoming violent or sick adults precisely because of |this treatment. This knowledge is now scientifically proven and |was finally officially accepted by the American Academy of |Pediatrics in 1998. Contrary to common opinion prevalent as |recently as fifteen years ago, the human brain at birth is far from |being fully developed. It is use-dependent, needing loving |stimulation for the child from her first day on. The abilities a |person's brain can develop depend on experiences in the first |three years of life. A contrary perspective,
Re: [tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
Allen Esterson writes: I don't know what the situation is in the States, but the notion that violent people will very likely have had an abusive childhood is frequently expressed in the media in the UK. It's the same here in the States, Allen. The first thing people generally say about an abuser is that he/she was probably abused as a kid too. I address this notion in my classes all the time: That while the abuser might have been abused himself/herself as a child, it can also be the case that an an adult who was abused says, I will *never* do to a child what was done to me. Beth Benoit Granite State College Plymouth State University New Hampshire --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=4511 or send a blank email to leave-4511-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
Beth, what, then, explains for the difference of responses since you seem to use the latter of your examples to rationalize away the former. Make it a good day -Louis- Louis Schmier http://www.the randomthoughts.edublogs.orghttp://randomthoughts.edublogs.org Department of Historyhttp://www.therandomthoughts.com Valdosta State University Valdosta, Georgia 31698 /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ (O) 229-333-5947/^\\/ \/ \ /\/\__ / \ / \ (C) 229-630-0821 / \/ \_ \/ / \/ /\/ / \ /\ \ //\/\/ /\\__/__/_/\_\/ \_/__\ \ /\If you want to climb mountains,\ /\ _ / \don't practice on mole hills - / \_ On Aug 30, 2010, at 8:17 AM, Beth Benoit wrote: Allen Esterson writes: I don't know what the situation is in the States, but the notion that violent people will very likely have had an abusive childhood is frequently expressed in the media in the UK. It's the same here in the States, Allen. The first thing people generally say about an abuser is that he/she was probably abused as a kid too. I address this notion in my classes all the time: That while the abuser might have been abused himself/herself as a child, it can also be the case that an an adult who was abused says, I will never do to a child what was done to me. Beth Benoit Granite State College Plymouth State University New Hampshire --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: lschm...@valdosta.edumailto:lschm...@valdosta.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42440n=Tl=tipso=4511 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-4511-13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-4511-13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=4512 or send a blank email to leave-4512-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
