Re: [tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
Wow, Chris, you're uncharacteristically late to the gate. This conversation has been going on for almost a week. I'm curious...Did TIPS get to you late, did your post get delayed, or??? Beth Benoit On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Christopher D. Green chri...@yorku.cawrote: He's simply paraphrasing JB Watson's (silly) claim: Give me 12 children, well formed, and give me complete control of their environments. I'll make any one of them become whatever I wish: baker, banker, beggar man, thief, doctor, lawyer, or Indian chief. It is an article of the behaviorist credo. Chris -- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 Canada 416-736-2100 ex. 66164 chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ == == Beth Benoit wrote: I just finished reading another obituary for O. Ivar Lovaas, which ended with this astounding statement: To the end of his career, Dr. Lovaas was adamant that applied behavior analysis was supremely useful in childhood interventions of all kinds. “If I had gotten Hitler here at U.C.L.A. at the age of 4 or 5,” he told Los Angeles magazine in 2004, “I could have raised him to be a nice person.” http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/health/23lovaas.html I don't know whether this is a result of a stunning ego, underappreciation on my part, or maybe he was misquoted, like Freud in his statement about the Nazis. What think you? Beth Benoit Granite State College Plymouth State University New Hampshire --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: chri...@yorku.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13132.a868d710aa4ef67a68807ce4fe8bd0dan=Tl=tipso=4446 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-4446-13132.a868d710aa4ef67a68807ce4fe8bd...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: beth.ben...@gmail.com. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13105.b9b37cdd198e940b73969ea6ba7aaf72n=Tl=tipso=4542 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-4542-13105.b9b37cdd198e940b73969ea6ba7aa...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=4543 or send a blank email to leave-4543-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
Beth Benoit wrote: Wow, Chris, you're uncharacteristically late to the gate. This conversation has been going on for almost a week. I'm curious...Did TIPS get to you late, did your post get delayed, or??? No, I was away from my e-mail for five (glorious) days. http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=197422id=503448130l=e8876d1c5f I wrote before seeing all the responses. Chris Green York U. Toronto On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Christopher D. Green chri...@yorku.ca mailto:chri...@yorku.ca wrote: He's simply paraphrasing JB Watson's (silly) claim: Give me 12 children, well formed, and give me complete control of their environments. I'll make any one of them become whatever I wish: baker, banker, beggar man, thief, doctor, lawyer, or Indian chief. It is an article of the behaviorist credo. Chris -- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 Canada 416-736-2100 ex. 66164 chri...@yorku.ca mailto:chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ == == Beth Benoit wrote: I just finished reading another obituary for O. Ivar Lovaas, which ended with this astounding statement: To the end of his career, Dr. Lovaas was adamant that applied behavior analysis was supremely useful in childhood interventions of all kinds. “If I had gotten Hitler here at U.C.L.A. at the age of 4 or 5,” he told Los Angeles magazine in 2004, “I could have raised him to be a nice person.” http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/health/23lovaas.html I don't know whether this is a result of a stunning ego, underappreciation on my part, or maybe he was misquoted, like Freud in his statement about the Nazis. What think you? Beth Benoit Granite State College Plymouth State University New Hampshire --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: chri...@yorku.ca mailto:chri...@yorku.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13132.a868d710aa4ef67a68807ce4fe8bd0dan=Tl=tipso=4446 http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13132.a868d710aa4ef67a68807ce4fe8bd0dan=Tl=tipso=4446 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-4446-13132.a868d710aa4ef67a68807ce4fe8bd...@fsulist.frostburg.edu mailto:leave-4446-13132.a868d710aa4ef67a68807ce4fe8bd...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: beth.ben...@gmail.com mailto:beth.ben...@gmail.com. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13105.b9b37cdd198e940b73969ea6ba7aaf72n=Tl=tipso=4542 http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13105.b9b37cdd198e940b73969ea6ba7aaf72n=Tl=tipso=4542 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-4542-13105.b9b37cdd198e940b73969ea6ba7aa...@fsulist.frostburg.edu mailto:leave-4542-13105.b9b37cdd198e940b73969ea6ba7aa...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: chri...@yorku.ca mailto:chri...@yorku.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13132.a868d710aa4ef67a68807ce4fe8bd0dan=Tl=tipso=4543 http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13132.a868d710aa4ef67a68807ce4fe8bd0dan=Tl=tipso=4543 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-4543-13132.a868d710aa4ef67a68807ce4fe8bd...@fsulist.frostburg.edu mailto:leave-4543-13132.a868d710aa4ef67a68807ce4fe8bd...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=4544 or send a blank email to leave-4544-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re:[tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
Mike Palij writes: Again, to be clear, the CBS miniseries controversy seems to match some of the characterizations that Joan mentioned in her post but it possible that there is some other project that actually was cancelled. Joan Warmbold wrote: ….do any of you recall that a production of Hitler's life was planned for HBO or PBS but was canceled as it provided some objective information about his abusive childhood. I guess many folks prefer to believe the bad seed theory as opposed to the influence of violence in a child's early years. Please do check out the sources provided below as my guess is that many of you are not aware of Hitler's brutal childhood. Joan's second sentence is clearly (to me at least) suggesting that the miniseries was cancelled not just because it cited *Hitler's* abusive childhood but as more general evidence that the notion that childhood abuse may cause abusive behaviour in adulthood was being suppressed. But the items Mike cites are *specific to Hitler*, and indicate concern about how emphasis on his childhood experiences might be interpreted in some degree an excuse for *Hitler's* murderous behaviour, as the New York Times article to which Mike linked makes clear: By focusing on Hitler's younger years, these critics worry, the program will not include the main and essential ingredients of Hitler's wickedness: Auschwitz, the Gestapo, the Final Solution, 50 million dead across Europe. And by leaving all that out, some people say, a film focusing on Hitler's childhood might give him a kind of abuse excuse, portraying him as a lonely, mistreated child of the sort for whom today's youths might even experience a degree of fellow feeling. To generalise from the unique case of concerns about how the monstrous Hitler is depicted in a TV documentary to the (surely implied) suggestion that the motivation was within a context of suppression of the very notion of an abusive childhood being a cause of violent behaviour in adulthood seems to me to be an unjustified extrapolation. I don't know what the situation is in the States, but the notion that violent people will very likely have had an abusive childhood is frequently expressed in the media in the UK. I find it hard to believe it is so very different in the States, in which case it would indicate that the case of the Hitler documentary is highly specific to Hitler, and shouldn't be generalised to suggest a virtual conspiracy to suppress the notion itself. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org -- From: Mike Palij m...@nyu.edu Subject:Re: Raising Hitler to be a nice person Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:41:51 -0400 On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 01:27:36 -0700, Allen Esterson wrote: Thank, Mike, for your very comprehensive response to my queries regarding Joan's posting. Again, to be clear, the CBS miniseries controversy seems to match some of the characterizations that Joan mentioned in her post but it possible that there is some other project that actually was cancelled. Mike writes: Kershaw's biography paints a bleak life for the young Hitler, for example, quote Hitler's sister and saying that his bad relationship with his father resulted in a sound thrashing every day; see: http://books.google.com/books?id=nV-N10gyoFwClpg=PA13dq=kershaw%20hitler%20thrashing%20harshnesspg=PA13#v=onepageqf=false (bottom of page 12-13). Thanks (again) for that, Mike. I've ordered Kershaw's book, but in the meantime, could you give me the reference citation for the above quote from Hitler's sister. Although parts of Kershaw is availabe for preview, the notes section is not but the contextual info says that it was an interview done on June 5, 1946 by the U.S. Army at Berchtesgaden. Harold Marcuse has a link to this interview but it leads to a dead geocities page on Yahoo. A Google search turns up the following webpage which contains the interview and Kershaw's quote is located about midpage (there may be other websites that have more formal/academic connections); see: http://www.oradour.info/appendix/paula01.htm The relevant paragraph is this: |It was especially my brother Adolf, who challenged my father |to extreme harshness and who got his sound thrashing every day. |He was a scrubby little rogue, and all attempts of his father to |thrash him for his rudeness and to cause him to love the profession |of an official of the estate were in vain. How often on the other |hand did my mother caress him and try to obtain with her kindness, |were the father could not succeed with harshness! At the bottom of the page are comments by the interview about his (?) assessment of Paula (Wolf) Hitler's (she changed her name from Hitler to Wolf at some point during the 1930s) veracity. Though most of what she said appears to be consistent with her oath to tell the truth, some of her statements
Re: [tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
Allen Esterson writes: I don't know what the situation is in the States, but the notion that violent people will very likely have had an abusive childhood is frequently expressed in the media in the UK. It's the same here in the States, Allen. The first thing people generally say about an abuser is that he/she was probably abused as a kid too. I address this notion in my classes all the time: That while the abuser might have been abused himself/herself as a child, it can also be the case that an an adult who was abused says, I will *never* do to a child what was done to me. Beth Benoit Granite State College Plymouth State University New Hampshire --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=4511 or send a blank email to leave-4511-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
Beth, what, then, explains for the difference of responses since you seem to use the latter of your examples to rationalize away the former. Make it a good day -Louis- Louis Schmier http://www.the randomthoughts.edublogs.orghttp://randomthoughts.edublogs.org Department of Historyhttp://www.therandomthoughts.com Valdosta State University Valdosta, Georgia 31698 /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ (O) 229-333-5947/^\\/ \/ \ /\/\__ / \ / \ (C) 229-630-0821 / \/ \_ \/ / \/ /\/ / \ /\ \ //\/\/ /\\__/__/_/\_\/ \_/__\ \ /\If you want to climb mountains,\ /\ _ / \don't practice on mole hills - / \_ On Aug 30, 2010, at 8:17 AM, Beth Benoit wrote: Allen Esterson writes: I don't know what the situation is in the States, but the notion that violent people will very likely have had an abusive childhood is frequently expressed in the media in the UK. It's the same here in the States, Allen. The first thing people generally say about an abuser is that he/she was probably abused as a kid too. I address this notion in my classes all the time: That while the abuser might have been abused himself/herself as a child, it can also be the case that an an adult who was abused says, I will never do to a child what was done to me. Beth Benoit Granite State College Plymouth State University New Hampshire --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: lschm...@valdosta.edumailto:lschm...@valdosta.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42440n=Tl=tipso=4511 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-4511-13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42...@fsulist.frostburg.edumailto:leave-4511-13368.9b8fe41d7a9a359029570f1d2ef42...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=4512 or send a blank email to leave-4512-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
Thank, Mike, for your very comprehensive response to my queries regarding Joan's posting. The only book on Hitler on the shelves of my local library is *The Hidden Hitler* (2001), by the German historian Lothar Machtan. It is not actually a biography, and he only deals with Hitler's story after the death of his father. For Hitler's childhood he references four books, three of which are in German. I've ordered on Abebooks the only one in English, by Bradley F. Smith, which the subheading indicates is specifically on Hitler's Family, Childhood, and Youth. Mike writes: Kershaw's biography paints a bleak life for the young Hitler, for example, quote Hitler's sister and saying that his bad relationship with his father resulted in a sound thrashing every day; see: http://books.google.com/books?id=nV-N10gyoFwClpg=PA13dq=kershaw%20hitler%20thrashing%20harshnesspg=PA13#v=onepageqf=false (bottom of page 12-13). Thanks (again) for that, Mike. I've ordered Kershaw's book, but in the meantime, could you give me the reference citation for the above quote from Hitler's sister. Mike writes in relation to Alice Miller's books: I'll leave it to one of the clinical psychologists to point out the problems with Miller's approach to psychotherapy. One doesn't have to be a clinical psychologist to comment on Miller's approach to psychotherapy. I'm fairly familiar with her writings, having sought out the passages on Freud's seduction theory in several of her books in the preparation for my article The Myth of Freud's Ostracism by the Medical Community in 1896-1905: Jeffrey Masson's Assault on Truth, in which she gets a passing mention: http://www.esterson.org/Myth_of_Freuds_ostracism.htm I can't comment generally on her historical research, but on the seduction theory episode she gets just about everything wrong. In regard to her therapeutic approach, her contention is that virtually all the evils that beset humankind, outside of events in the natural world (for want of a better expression), are the result of the experiencing of physical and emotional abuse in childhood. Her methodology is such that she always, apparently without exception, finds this to be the case, both with individual patients and in the case of historical figures. To cite just one example, in *Banished Knowledge* she writes that one specific case confirmed something I have long suspected: A child's autism is a response to his environment, the last possible response open to a child. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org - -- Re:[tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person Mike Palij Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:54:53 -0700 On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:46:50 -0700, Allen Esterson wrote: On 27 August 2010 Joan Warmbold wrote: As a relevant tangent, do any of you recall that a production of Hitler's life was planned for HBO or PBS but was canceled as it provided some objective information about his abusive childhood. That's a strong allegation to make without citation, Joan. Please supply chapter and verse – in particular that the production was cancelled for the reason you give. Since Joan originally said ... do any of you recall that a production of Hitler's life was planned for HBO or PBS but was canceled as it provided some objective information about his abusive childhood. it is clear to me anyway that she could not recall the specifics of the event when she wrote her reply. Perhaps she will recall it, perhaps it is a false memory. Allen is correct is asking for a specific reference but it is possible that the actual event that Joan is referring to may differ in some significant details from her memory of the event. Such things happen. An event that Joan might have been thinking about was the 2002 CBS television network miniseries on Hitler based on Ian Kershaw's biography of Hitler (which is available on books.google.com). One problem that some people appeared to have at the time was the miniseries focused on Hitler's early life and Kershaw's biography paints a bleak life for the young Hitler, for example, quote Hitler's sister and saying that his bad relationship with his father resulted in a sound thrashing every day; see: http://books.google.com/books?id=nV-N10gyoFwClpg=PA13dq=kershaw%20hitler%20thrashing%20harshnesspg=PA13#v=onepageqf=false (bottom of page 12-13). Of course, focusing on the early years of Hitler's life raises the problem of making Hitler a sympathetic victim of his environment. This concern was expressed in an August 10, 2002 article in the Toronto Star newspaper (page h.09 -- available through ProQuest newspaper database); quoting the article: |There is no suggestion of any humour whatsoever in a much more |controversial CBS four-hour miniseries based on a biography of |Hitler by respected historian Ian Kershaw, now in production
Re: [tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 01:27:36 -0700, Allen Esterson wrote: Thank, Mike, for your very comprehensive response to my queries regarding Joan's posting. Again, to be clear, the CBS miniseries controversy seems to match some of the characterizations that Joan mentioned in her post but it possible that there is some other project that actually was cancelled. Mike writes: Kershaw's biography paints a bleak life for the young Hitler, for example, quote Hitler's sister and saying that his bad relationship with his father resulted in a sound thrashing every day; see: http://books.google.com/books?id=nV-N10gyoFwClpg=PA13dq=kershaw%20hitler%20thrashing%20harshnesspg=PA13#v=onepageqf=false (bottom of page 12-13). Thanks (again) for that, Mike. I've ordered Kershaw's book, but in the meantime, could you give me the reference citation for the above quote from Hitler's sister. Although parts of Kershaw is availabe for preview, the notes section is not but the contextual info says that it was an interview done on June 5, 1946 by the U.S. Army at Berchtesgaden. Harold Marcuse has a link to this interview but it leads to a dead geocities page on Yahoo. A Google search turns up the following webpage which contains the interview and Kershaw's quote is located about midpage (there may be other websites that have more formal/academic connections); see: http://www.oradour.info/appendix/paula01.htm The relevant paragraph is this: |It was especially my brother Adolf, who challenged my father |to extreme harshness and who got his sound thrashing every day. |He was a scrubby little rogue, and all attempts of his father to |thrash him for his rudeness and to cause him to love the profession |of an official of the estate were in vain. How often on the other |hand did my mother caress him and try to obtain with her kindness, |were the father could not succeed with harshness! At the bottom of the page are comments by the interview about his (?) assessment of Paula (Wolf) Hitler's (she changed her name from Hitler to Wolf at some point during the 1930s) veracity. Though most of what she said appears to be consistent with her oath to tell the truth, some of her statements are not believed to be truth, such as: |I do not believe that my brother ordered the crime committed |to innumerable human beings in the concentration - camps or that |he even knew of these crimes. It may be possible however, that |the hard years during his youth in Vienna caused his anti-Jewish |attitude. He was starving severely in Vienna and he believed that |his failure in painting was only due to the fact that trade in works |of art was in Jewish hands. There are other websites containing info on Paula Hitler/Wolf(f), one of which is in the U.K.; see: http://www.paulahitler.btinternet.co.uk/ Mike writes in relation to Alice Miller's books: I'll leave it to one of the clinical psychologists to point out the problems with Miller's approach to psychotherapy. One doesn't have to be a clinical psychologist to comment on Miller's approach to psychotherapy. I'm fairly familiar with her writings, having sought out the passages on Freud's seduction theory in several of her books in the preparation for my article The Myth of Freud's Ostracism by the Medical Community in 1896-1905: Jeffrey Masson's Assault on Truth, in which she gets a passing mention: http://www.esterson.org/Myth_of_Freuds_ostracism.htm I made the suggestion for clinical psychologists because, regardless of the connection to Freud, her work seems to be related to other theoretical position, especially with Miller's focus on the importance of experience in the first three years and how these experiences affect the brain for the rest of one's life. Here is a link to a 1998 presentation made at the 92nd Street Y in NYC where she lays out her position (which seems to rely relatively little on Freud); see: http://www.vachss.com/guest_dispatches/alice_miller2.html I can't comment generally on her historical research, but on the seduction theory episode she gets just about everything wrong. In regard to her therapeutic approach, her contention is that virtually all the evils that beset humankind, outside of events in the natural world (for want of a better expression), are the result of the experiencing of physical and emotional abuse in childhood. Her methodology is such that she always, apparently without exception, finds this to be the case, both with individual patients and in the case of historical figures. To cite just one example, in *Banished Knowledge* she writes that one specific case confirmed something I have long suspected: A child's autism is a response to his environment, the last possible response open to a child. Well, her explanation aside, the larger issue is what to make of early childhood experience and to what extent do they have lifelong effects. It seems that a general thesis that Miller is asserting is that adult problems have their
Re:[tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
On 27 August 2010 Joan Warmbold wrote: As a relevant tangent, do any of you recall that a production of Hitler's life was planned for HBO or PBS but was canceled as it provided some objective information about his abusive childhood. That's a strong allegation to make without citation, Joan. Please supply chapter and verse – in particular that the production was cancelled for the reason you give. Joan writes: As some of you might be aware, Hitler was beaten on a regular basis by his father , and some sources claim on a daily basis, sources below. I don't doubt that Hitler was beaten by his father, as I imagine many children were in those days. It may well be that in Hitler's case the beatings were more severe and more regular, but I would need more than the references cited by Joan to be convinced. The first one is the Wikipedia Hitler page: Hitler's father frequently beat his wife and children with a whip. The reference for this statement is this documentary: http://www.history.com/topics/adolf-hitler/videos#adolf-hitler According to the commentator David Einsenbach, Hitler's father frequently beat his wife and children with a whip. There is no way of knowing how reliable this information is. (Eisenbach teaches media and politics Columbia University, but doesn't seem to have any particular expertise regarding Hitler.) Joan's second citation is the website Famous People, where one finds a reference to the regular whipping and violence committed by his father. However, one look at the website indicates that it is unlikely to be a source of reliable information: http://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/adolf-hitler-8.php I have no idea how badly Hitler was beaten in childhood by his father. In his book *Explaining Hitler: The Search for the Origins of his Evil*, Ron Rosenbaum writes that We have only Hitler's self-pitying word for it that he was the victim of savage paternal beatings, an account contradicted by some who remembered his father as a far milder sort Does anyone have any information on this, preferably more reliable than from the commentator on a popular documentary and the website Famous People. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org - From: Joan Warmbold jwarm...@oakton.edu Subject:Re: Raising Hitler to be a nice person Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:16:28 -0500 I don't think Lovaas had a stunning ego whatsoever. Someone on this listserv had mentioned the rather odd fact that the NYT's had delayed their obituary of Lovaas for three days. I suspect they wanted their /fact checkers/ to make sure this guy was as accomplished and productive in his work with autistic children as had been claimed--as behavioral strategies are so frequently misunderstood and unjustly maligned.. Now Beth, consider a Hitler type personality who at the age of 4 is reinforced only for prosocial behavior and given extinction for all anti-social behavior? Could that not have altered the impact of his abusive childhood? As some of you might be aware, Hitler was beaten on a regular basis by his father , and some sources claim on a daily basis, sources below. As a relevant tangent, do any of you recall that a production of Hitler's life was planned for HBO or PBS but was canceled as it provided some objective information about his abusive childhood. I guess many folks prefer to believe the bad seed theory as opposed to the influence of violence in a child's early years. Please do check out the sources provided below as my guess is that many of you are not aware of Hitler's brutal childhood. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Childhood http://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/adolf-hitler-8.php Joan Joan Warmbold Boggs jwarm...@oakton.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=4465 or send a blank email to leave-4465-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re:[tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:46:50 -0700, Allen Esterson wrote: On 27 August 2010 Joan Warmbold wrote: As a relevant tangent, do any of you recall that a production of Hitler's life was planned for HBO or PBS but was canceled as it provided some objective information about his abusive childhood. That's a strong allegation to make without citation, Joan. Please supply chapter and verse – in particular that the production was cancelled for the reason you give. Since Joan originally said ... do any of you recall that a production of Hitler's life was planned for HBO or PBS but was canceled as it provided some objective information about his abusive childhood. it is clear to me anyway that she could not recall the specifics of the event when she wrote her reply. Perhaps she will recall it, perhaps it is a false memory. Allen is correct is asking for a specific reference but it is possible that the actual event that Joan is referring to may differ in some significant details from her memory of the event. Such things happen. An event that Joan might have been thinking about was the 2002 CBS television network miniseries on Hitler based on Ian Kershaw's biography of Hitler (which is available on books.google.com). One problem that some people appeared to have at the time was the miniseries focused on Hitler's early life and Kershaw's biography paints a bleak life for the young Hitler, for example, quote Hitler's sister and saying that his bad relationship with his father resulted in a sound thrashing every day; see: http://books.google.com/books?id=nV-N10gyoFwClpg=PA13dq=kershaw%20hitler%20thrashing%20harshnesspg=PA13#v=onepageqf=false (bottom of page 12-13). Of course, focusing on the early years of Hitler's life raises the problem of making Hitler a sympathetic victim of his environment. This concern was expressed in an August 10, 2002 article in the Toronto Star newspaper (page h.09 -- available through ProQuest newspaper database); quoting the article: |There is no suggestion of any humour whatsoever in a much more |controversial CBS four-hour miniseries based on a biography of |Hitler by respected historian Ian Kershaw, now in production. |The series will concentrate on the young Hitler as he stews in his |juices and begins his rise to power. | |Naturally, people are nervous about this miniseries. Abraham |Foxman, chairman of the Anti-Defamation League in the United States, |said, We find it very distressing that people would spend talent, |time and money to make this man human. Well, actually he was |human. He was not an android or Lucifer incarnate. | |People at CBS are trying to reassure potential critics. This series will |be good for viewers, they suggest. It will remind them that Hitler's rise |could happen again. It will be a good history lesson for the entire |continent. The benefit of dramatizing Hitler is that 25 million people |will probably be exposed to our film on CBS alone, the series' |executive producer Peter Sussman has stated. That's a fantastic |opportunity to get out there and educate. | | |Educating people about Hitler, in particular, is very dangerous, |disturbing business because it's so easy to get it wrong. As the |American journalist Ron Rosenbaum reports in his 1998 book |Explaining Hitler: The Search For The Origins Of His Evil, some |of the best historians, philosophers, artists and political scientists |of our time have obsessed about the why of Hitler and the Holocaust, |and they have never come up with satisfactory answers. The NY Times also had an article, prior to the airing of the mini-series, on the topic of doing such a series on Hitler; see: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/25/weekinreview/ideas-trends-trivializing-hitler-the-new-refrain-adolf-we-hardly-knew-ye.html?scp=11sq=%22richard+bernstein%22+hitlerst=csepagewanted=all or http://tinyurl.com/36wq649 The article by Richard Bernstein starts with the following: |IN his 1998 book ''Explaining Hitler,'' the journalist and essayist |Ron Rosenbaum wrote that the long quest by historians, |philosophers and others to understand Hitler has involved ''a trek |into the trackless realm of Hitler's inwardness.'' It is a realm |''camouflaged by thickets of conflicting evidence,'' he continued, |''a tangled undergrowth of unreliable memory and testimony.'' | |Mr. Rosenbaum's point is a good one to keep in mind now that |CBS Entertainment has announced plans to broadcast a four-hour |mini-series covering Hitler's youth and rise to power. |... |A program that shows Hitler becoming a demonical dictator because |his father beat him would either have to trivialize history or be a satire |worthy of Mel Brooks. CBS would have to produce an almost |amazingly bad melodrama for Hitler to come across as somehow |sympathetic, or at least kind of cool -- sort of like Hannibal Lecter |in ''Silence of the Lambs.'' Another quote: |'It's an extraordinarily complicated subject,'' said Fritz
[tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
I just finished reading another obituary for O. Ivar Lovaas, which ended with this astounding statement: To the end of his career, Dr. Lovaas was adamant that applied behavior analysis was supremely useful in childhood interventions of all kinds. “If I had gotten Hitler here at U.C.L.A. at the age of 4 or 5,” he told Los Angeles magazine in 2004, “I could have raised him to be a nice person.” http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/health/23lovaas.html I don't know whether this is a result of a stunning ego, underappreciation on my part, or maybe he was misquoted, like Freud in his statement about the Nazis. What think you? Beth Benoit Granite State College Plymouth State University New Hampshire --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=4446 or send a blank email to leave-4446-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
Hi Reminds me of the movie The Boys from Brazil, in which Hitler was cloned and then extreme efforts taken to reproduce his early environment. I wonder if Lovaas would also have argued that he could take any boy at 4 or 5 and turn out a Hitler? Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor of Psychology 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu 27-Aug-10 2:45:23 PM Beth-- A bit of hyperbole maybe, but do you think that Hitler's personality was totally genetically determined? What makes the statement so astounding? Hitler (and Stalin, and Mao, et.al.) were human beings, not demons. There were many reasons why they were what they were; the fact that they were in positions to do terrible harm doesn't mean that many other people in the same circumstances would not have been just as bad. Behavior can be changed. In many ways, I'd prefer Lovaas's (over)optimism to a fatalism that simply demonizes people. Paul Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato paul.bran...@mnsu.edu On Aug 27, 2010, at 2:06 PM, Beth Benoit wrote: I just finished reading another obituary for O. Ivar Lovaas, which ended with this astounding statement: To the end of his career, Dr. Lovaas was adamant that applied behavior analysis was supremely useful in childhood interventions of all kinds. *If I had gotten Hitler here at U.C.L.A. at the age of 4 or 5,* he told Los Angeles magazine in 2004, *I could have raised him to be a nice person.* http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/health/23lovaas.html --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a891720c9n=Tl=tipso=4447 or send a blank email to leave-4447-13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a89172...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=4448 or send a blank email to leave-4448-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
I think Watson might have believed he could... -- Marc Carter, PhD Associate Professor and Chair Department of Psychology College of Arts Sciences Baker University -- -Original Message- From: Jim Clark [mailto:j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca] Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 2:56 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person Hi Reminds me of the movie The Boys from Brazil, in which Hitler was cloned and then extreme efforts taken to reproduce his early environment. I wonder if Lovaas would also have argued that he could take any boy at 4 or 5 and turn out a Hitler? Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor of Psychology 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu 27-Aug-10 2:45:23 PM Beth-- A bit of hyperbole maybe, but do you think that Hitler's personality was totally genetically determined? What makes the statement so astounding? Hitler (and Stalin, and Mao, et.al.) were human beings, not demons. There were many reasons why they were what they were; the fact that they were in positions to do terrible harm doesn't mean that many other people in the same circumstances would not have been just as bad. Behavior can be changed. In many ways, I'd prefer Lovaas's (over)optimism to a fatalism that simply demonizes people. Paul Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato paul.bran...@mnsu.edu On Aug 27, 2010, at 2:06 PM, Beth Benoit wrote: I just finished reading another obituary for O. Ivar Lovaas, which ended with this astounding statement: To the end of his career, Dr. Lovaas was adamant that applied behavior analysis was supremely useful in childhood interventions of all kinds. *If I had gotten Hitler here at U.C.L.A. at the age of 4 or 5,* he told Los Angeles magazine in 2004, *I could have raised him to be a nice person.* http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/health/23lovaas.html --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea 7a891720c9n=Tl=tipso=4447 or send a blank email to leave-4447-13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a89172...@fsulist.fros tburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: marc.car...@bakeru.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13029.76c7c563b32ad9d8d09c72 a2d17c90e1n=Tl=tipso=4448 or send a blank email to leave-4448-13029.76c7c563b32ad9d8d09c72a2d17c9...@fsulist.fros tburg.edu The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by Baker University (BU) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify Baker University by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=4450 or send a blank email to leave-4450-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Raising Hitler to be a nice person
Paul, you are one of the very few that provide the notorious and ubiquitous quote by Watson in its' entirety. Most sources don't include the last part where Watson states I am going beyond my fact and I admit it, but so have . . Bet many on this listserv have not even been the complete quote. Joan Joan Warmbold Boggs jwarm...@oakton.edu Paul Brandon wrote: The quotation: “ Give me a dozen healthy infants, well-formed, and my own specified world to bring them up in and I'll guarantee to take any one at random and train him to become any type of specialist I might select – doctor, lawyer, artist, merchant-chief and, yes, even beggar-man and thief, regardless of his talents, penchants, tendencies, abilities, vocations, and race of his ancestors. I am going beyond my facts and I admit it, but so have the advocates of the contrary and they have been doing it for many thousands of years. [Behaviorism (1930), p. 82] ” Note the second clause of the first sentence; I suspect that Lovaas would have agreed (to answer Jim's question as well). Same logic as Archimedes' 'Give me a long enough lever and a place to rest my fulcrum and I could move the Earth.' Stating the conditions under which you could accomplish something doesn't mean that it's likely that you would actually HAVE those conditions available to you. Paul Brandon --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5n=Tl=tipso=4454 or send a blank email to leave-4454-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
