Re: [tips] How ECT Works?
Since I don't think any one else has mentioned this, I would recommend reading Carrie Fisher's book, Wishful Drinking, as she talks about her experiences with ECT. She admits to it causing memory loss but believes these ongoing treatments are the only reason she is alive today. This woman is so open and frank about her life it's quite amazing--and she is funny. Joan jwarm...@oakton.edu > Ed-- > > These observations are consistent with your point, but do not prove it. > I'd still like to see something more rigorous. > I'm not denying that ECT -may- work, but given the fact that it's a bit of > a blunt instrument with serious potential side effects, I'd like to see > stronger support. > > On Mar 20, 2012, at 7:09 AM, Pollak, Edward (Retired) wrote: > >> Paul Brandon wrote, "And then there's the hypothesis that people >> change the way that they talk about themselves in order to avoid going >> through it again." >> That bit of nonsense has been around for many years despite extensive >> evidence against it and virtually no supporting evidence. I wish that >> instructors would stop promoting this absurd hypothesis. I've been >> listening to this humanistic clap trap for 40 years and it really needs >> to end. >> The most obvious disconfirming observations include a) ECT is equally >> effective whether the treatment is given "eyes open" or under general >> anesthesia. If the "avoidance hypothesis" is correct, one would predict >> that ECT given "eyes open" would be far superior to ECT given under >> general anesthesia. b) The fact that ECT is decidedly ineffective in >> most other disorders. If depressives change there behavior to avoid >> "going through it again" then why wouldn't that be true of patients with >> schizophrenia, mania, OCD, etc., etc.? >> Ed > > Paul Brandon > Emeritus Professor of Psychology > Minnesota State University, Mankato > pkbra...@hickorytech.net > > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: jwarm...@oakton.edu. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=49240.d374d0c18780e492c3d2e63f91752d0d&n=T&l=tips&o=16828 > or send a blank email to > leave-16828-49240.d374d0c18780e492c3d2e63f91752...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=16843 or send a blank email to leave-16843-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] How ECT Works?
Paul - To believe that patients' self-reported improvement following ECT stems from a desire to avoid the treatment, one would also need to believe that: (1) Even though most patients describe the procedure as no more threatening than a trip to the dentist, their report is not especially plausible or at least not plausible enough to be taken on its own merits (see Paul's message below); (2) Even though scores of published studies on ECT assure patients' that their self-report reports of depression are confidential, they somehow don't believe this assurance of confidentiality, and instead think believe the treatment team will gain access to this information and use it to decide on the course of future treatment; (3) Even though most (today, probably all) patients in published controlled outcome studies of ECT give full informed consent regarding to whether to receive the treatment (and therefore the treatment is voluntary), they somehow don't believe that their participation is voluntary and instead believe that the treatment will be forced upon them against their will. (4) Even though patients in contemporary controlled studies of ECT are told they will be randomly assigned to either a treatment arm or an alternative treatment arm, they don't actually believe that the assignment is random, and instead believe that the investigative team can decide at will whether to alter the treatment plan on the basis of their self-reports. Paul, I don't find this hypothesis for the effects of ECT on self-reported depression in published studies at all plausible. This isn't to say that lots of reasonable questions can't be raised concerning the reported efficacy of ECT (e.g., integrity of the blinding in sham ECT studies), only that I don't think that this hypothesis holds water. Scott Scott O. Lilienfeld, Ph.D. Professor Department of Psychology, Room 473 Emory University 36 Eagle Row Atlanta, Georgia 30322 sli...@emory.edu; 404-727-1125 The Master in the Art of Living makes little distinction between his work and his play, his labor and his leisure, his mind and his body, his education and his recreation, his love and his intellectual passions. He hardly knows which is which. He simply pursues his vision of excellence in whatever he does, leaving others to decide whether he is working or playing. To him - he is always doing both. - Zen Buddhist text (slightly modified) -Original Message- From: Paul Brandon [mailto:pkbra...@hickorytech.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 10:28 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] How ECT Works? Again possible, but needs to be -systematically- demonstrated, not just anecdotally. On Mar 20, 2012, at 5:47 AM, Lilienfeld, Scott O wrote: > It also does not square with the findings of several studies indicating that > many or most patients who have undergone ECT describe the treatment as less > disturbing or frightening than a trip to the dentist: > > See e.g., http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/137/1/8 > > Scott > > Scott O. Lilienfeld, Ph.D. > Department of Psychology, Room 473 > Emory University > Atlanta, Georgia 30322 > > > > From: Allen Esterson [allenester...@compuserve.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:10 AM > To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) > Subject: Re:[tips] How ECT Works? > > Paul Brandon wrote on ECT: >> And then there's the hypothesis that people change the way that they >> talk about themselves in order to avoid going through it again. > > Paul: Only someone who has no conception of the indescribable > nightmare of living through prolonged clinical depression could > believe something like that. > > Allen Esterson > Former lecturer, Science Department > Southwark College, London > allenester...@compuserve.com > http://www.esterson.org > > - > From: Paul Brandon > Subject:Re: How ECT Works? > Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:34:59 -0500 > > And then there's the hypothesis that people change the way that they > talk about themselves in order to avoid going through it again. > > On Mar 19, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Michael Palij wrote: > >> A new research study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of >> Sciences (PNAS) claims that electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) reduces > the >> "crosstalk" among three neural networks in the brain, bringing their >> level back to that of nondepressed "normal" people. One population >> media is available here: >> > http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-electroshock-therapy > -depression-20120319,0,5132405.story >> >> The PNAS article can b
Re: [tips] How ECT Works?
Ed-- These observations are consistent with your point, but do not prove it. I'd still like to see something more rigorous. I'm not denying that ECT -may- work, but given the fact that it's a bit of a blunt instrument with serious potential side effects, I'd like to see stronger support. On Mar 20, 2012, at 7:09 AM, Pollak, Edward (Retired) wrote: > Paul Brandon wrote, "And then there's the hypothesis that people change the > way that they talk about themselves in order to avoid going through it again." > That bit of nonsense has been around for many years despite extensive > evidence against it and virtually no supporting evidence. I wish that > instructors would stop promoting this absurd hypothesis. I've been listening > to this humanistic clap trap for 40 years and it really needs to end. > The most obvious disconfirming observations include a) ECT is equally > effective whether the treatment is given "eyes open" or under general > anesthesia. If the "avoidance hypothesis" is correct, one would predict that > ECT given "eyes open" would be far superior to ECT given under general > anesthesia. b) The fact that ECT is decidedly ineffective in most other > disorders. If depressives change there behavior to avoid "going through it > again" then why wouldn't that be true of patients with schizophrenia, mania, > OCD, etc., etc.? > Ed Paul Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato pkbra...@hickorytech.net --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=16828 or send a blank email to leave-16828-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] How ECT Works?
Again possible, but needs to be -systematically- demonstrated, not just anecdotally. On Mar 20, 2012, at 5:47 AM, Lilienfeld, Scott O wrote: > It also does not square with the findings of several studies indicating that > many or most patients who have undergone ECT describe the treatment as less > disturbing or frightening than a trip to the dentist: > > See e.g., http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/137/1/8 > > Scott > > Scott O. Lilienfeld, Ph.D. > Department of Psychology, Room 473 > Emory University > Atlanta, Georgia 30322 > > > > From: Allen Esterson [allenester...@compuserve.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:10 AM > To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) > Subject: Re:[tips] How ECT Works? > > Paul Brandon wrote on ECT: >> And then there's the hypothesis that people change the way that >> they talk about themselves in order to avoid going through it again. > > Paul: Only someone who has no conception of the indescribable nightmare > of living through prolonged clinical depression could believe something > like that. > > Allen Esterson > Former lecturer, Science Department > Southwark College, London > allenester...@compuserve.com > http://www.esterson.org > > - > From: Paul Brandon > Subject:Re: How ECT Works? > Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:34:59 -0500 > > And then there's the hypothesis that people change the way that they > talk about themselves in order to avoid going through it again. > > On Mar 19, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Michael Palij wrote: > >> A new research study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of >> Sciences (PNAS) claims that electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) reduces > the >> "crosstalk" among three neural networks in the brain, bringing their >> level back to that of nondepressed "normal" people. One population >> media is available here: >> > http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-electroshock-therapy-depression-20120319,0,5132405.story >> >> The PNAS article can be obtained here: >> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/03/12/1117206109 >> >> -Mike Palij >> New York University >> m...@nyu.edu > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: slil...@emory.edu. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13509.d0999cebc8f4ed4eb54d5317367e9b2f&n=T&l=tips&o=16823 > or send a blank email to > leave-16823-13509.d0999cebc8f4ed4eb54d5317367e9...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > > > This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of > the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged > information. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution > or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly > prohibited. > > If you have received this message in error, please contact > the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the > original message (including attachments). > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: pkbra...@hickorytech.net. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13438.3b5166ef147b143fedd04b1c4a64900b&n=T&l=tips&o=16824 > or send a blank email to > leave-16824-13438.3b5166ef147b143fedd04b1c4a649...@fsulist.frostburg.edu Paul Brandon 10 Crown Hill Lane Mankato, MN 56001 pkbra...@hickorytech.net --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=16827 or send a blank email to leave-16827-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] How ECT Works?
Allen-- The severity of a problem is not proof of the effectiveness of a given treatment. The question here is what the most parsimonious explanation is of why people report that ECT is effective. We must at least consider alternative explanations before systematically eliminating them (see Mike Williams' post). On Mar 20, 2012, at 3:10 AM, Allen Esterson wrote: > Paul Brandon wrote on ECT: >> And then there's the hypothesis that people change the way that >> they talk about themselves in order to avoid going through it again. > > Paul: Only someone who has no conception of the indescribable nightmare > of living through prolonged clinical depression could believe something > like that. > > Allen Esterson > Former lecturer, Science Department > Southwark College, London > allenester...@compuserve.com > http://www.esterson.org > > - > From: Paul Brandon > Subject: Re: How ECT Works? > Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:34:59 -0500 > > And then there's the hypothesis that people change the way that they > talk about themselves in order to avoid going through it again. > > On Mar 19, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Michael Palij wrote: > >> A new research study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of >> Sciences (PNAS) claims that electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) reduces > the >> "crosstalk" among three neural networks in the brain, bringing their >> level back to that of nondepressed "normal" people. One population >> media is available here: Paul Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato pkbra...@hickorytech.net --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=16826 or send a blank email to leave-16826-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: Re:[tips] How ECT Works?
It also does not square with the findings of several studies indicating that many or most patients who have undergone ECT describe the treatment as less disturbing or frightening than a trip to the dentist: See e.g., http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/137/1/8 Scott Scott O. Lilienfeld, Ph.D. Department of Psychology, Room 473 Emory University Atlanta, Georgia 30322 From: Allen Esterson [allenester...@compuserve.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:10 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re:[tips] How ECT Works? Paul Brandon wrote on ECT: >And then there's the hypothesis that people change the way that >they talk about themselves in order to avoid going through it again. Paul: Only someone who has no conception of the indescribable nightmare of living through prolonged clinical depression could believe something like that. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org - From: Paul Brandon Subject:Re: How ECT Works? Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:34:59 -0500 And then there's the hypothesis that people change the way that they talk about themselves in order to avoid going through it again. On Mar 19, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Michael Palij wrote: > A new research study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of > Sciences (PNAS) claims that electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) reduces the > "crosstalk" among three neural networks in the brain, bringing their > level back to that of nondepressed "normal" people. One population > media is available here: > http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-electroshock-therapy-depression-20120319,0,5132405.story > > The PNAS article can be obtained here: > http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/03/12/1117206109 > > -Mike Palij > New York University > m...@nyu.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: slil...@emory.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13509.d0999cebc8f4ed4eb54d5317367e9b2f&n=T&l=tips&o=16823 or send a blank email to leave-16823-13509.d0999cebc8f4ed4eb54d5317367e9...@fsulist.frostburg.edu This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the original message (including attachments). --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=16824 or send a blank email to leave-16824-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re:[tips] How ECT Works?
Paul Brandon wrote on ECT: >And then there's the hypothesis that people change the way that >they talk about themselves in order to avoid going through it again. Paul: Only someone who has no conception of the indescribable nightmare of living through prolonged clinical depression could believe something like that. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org - From: Paul Brandon Subject:Re: How ECT Works? Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:34:59 -0500 And then there's the hypothesis that people change the way that they talk about themselves in order to avoid going through it again. On Mar 19, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Michael Palij wrote: > A new research study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of > Sciences (PNAS) claims that electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) reduces the > "crosstalk" among three neural networks in the brain, bringing their > level back to that of nondepressed "normal" people. One population > media is available here: > http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-electroshock-therapy-depression-20120319,0,5132405.story > > The PNAS article can be obtained here: > http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/03/12/1117206109 > > -Mike Palij > New York University > m...@nyu.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=16823 or send a blank email to leave-16823-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re:[tips] How ECT Works
ECT is just the induction of a seizure. It should be just a matter of time before someone discovers that fMRI connectivity analyses shows a reduction of connectivity following a seizure. Notice that the measure of depression was still self-report. ECT has no valid control condition. Everyone who got ECT knows they received it. It amounts to the patient reasoning, "What do I have to indicate on the self-report measure to get these people to stop?" Mike Williams --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=16821 or send a blank email to leave-16821-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] How ECT Works?
On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:35:05 -0700, Paul Brandon wrote: >And then there's the hypothesis that people change the way >that they talk about themselves in order to avoid going through >it again. I would think that they would forget to do that. -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu On Mar 19, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Michael Palij wrote: > A new research study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of > Sciences (PNAS) claims that electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) reduces the > "crosstalk" among three neural networks in the brain, bringing their > level back to that of nondepressed "normal" people. One population > media is available here: > > http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-electroshock-therapy-depression-20120319,0,5132405.story > > The PNAS article can be obtained here: > http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/03/12/1117206109 --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=16817 or send a blank email to leave-16817-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] How ECT Works?
And then there's the hypothesis that people change the way that they talk about themselves in order to avoid going through it again. On Mar 19, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Michael Palij wrote: > A new research study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of > Sciences (PNAS) claims that electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) reduces the > "crosstalk" among three neural networks in the brain, bringing their > level back to that of nondepressed "normal" people. One population > media is available here: > http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-electroshock-therapy-depression-20120319,0,5132405.story > > The PNAS article can be obtained here: > http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/03/12/1117206109 > > -Mike Palij > New York University > m...@nyu.edu Paul Brandon 10 Crown Hill Lane Mankato, MN 56001 pkbra...@hickorytech.net --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=16815 or send a blank email to leave-16815-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
