Re: [Toolserver-l] My fading out
At Friday 31 May 2013 01:24:38 DaB. wrote: > On 05/30/2013 05:31 PM, DaB. wrote: > > that WMF has already won > The WMF has not "won" anything, because there was never a contest or > battle, nor was there an adversarial position to begin with. sorry, but that’s untrue. The hole thing started as WMF announced to WMDE that WMF will stop to provide database-replication and database-dumps in the future. For this reason the CEO of WMDE claimed that further investments in the Toolserver would be a waste of money (he also assure the general member meeting with that). If that is not "adversarial" I have no idea what is. > My concern > - and that of the Foundation - align exactly with yours: provide a good > and stable environment for community developers to do their work with > the least possible fuss. The Toolserver is not just a place where you can put a program and run it or host a website. It’s a living community creating stuff in a anarchic way that works only in praxis but not in theory; it’s like Wikipedia. WikiLabs is more like Nupedia – in theory it is better, but in praxis it is empty and cold. The difference is that for Nupedia Jimbo accepted that it can not work and stopped it, and forced not Wikipedia user to switch to the _better_ platform. In our case it is just the way around: After the WMF noticed that nobody needed WikiLabs that started to look for a problem for their solution, and found the Toolserver. > > You sincerely believe that the Toolserver was and is the best solution > towards that objective. I disagree, and think that the Foundation has > more resources to set up and upkeep that environment and to insure its > future. Either way, it's the developer community that "wins", > regardless of where the actual environment ends up being. > > This does not, in any way, diminish the value of what you have done, or > of the effort you have expended in doing it. The Toolserver served its > purpose very well for a number of years! We have simply reached a point > where the continued maintenance of such a critical service living > outside the infrastructure remains rational. > > That we are > in a position to support the developer community with more resources So the WMF have more money, how great…. WMDE would have enough money to support the Toolserver and there are other chapters too that offered money. It is not a matter of "resources" it is a matter of control, because the WMF controls the database-access. Make your bosses release the threat, offer ToolLabs as an alternative of the Toolserver and see what’s happening – that would be a fair fight, and we all know that competition improves a product. > -- Marc Sincerely, DaB. -- Userpage: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]] — PGP: 0x2d3ee2d42b255885 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Toolserver-l mailing list (Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org) https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l Posting guidelines for this list: https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Mailing_list_etiquette
Re: [Toolserver-l] My fading out
On 05/30/2013 05:31 PM, DaB. wrote: > that WMF has already won I did not wish to intervene in this thread, DaB, out of respect and admiration for your dedication; but this I cannot let by uncommented. The WMF has not "won" anything, because there was never a contest or battle, nor was there an adversarial position to begin with. My concern - and that of the Foundation - align exactly with yours: provide a good and stable environment for community developers to do their work with the least possible fuss. You sincerely believe that the Toolserver was and is the best solution towards that objective. I disagree, and think that the Foundation has more resources to set up and upkeep that environment and to insure its future. Either way, it's the developer community that "wins", regardless of where the actual environment ends up being. This does not, in any way, diminish the value of what you have done, or of the effort you have expended in doing it. The Toolserver served its purpose very well for a number of years! We have simply reached a point where the continued maintenance of such a critical service living outside the infrastructure remains rational. I am saddened that you felt that the Foundation was an enemy to protect against when we are plainly working towards the same ends. That we are in a position to support the developer community with more resources should be cause to celebrate, not bemoan. The Toolserver deserves a retirement with honors, not a bitter parting. -- Marc ___ Toolserver-l mailing list (Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org) https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l Posting guidelines for this list: https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Mailing_list_etiquette
Re: [Toolserver-l] My fading out
Hello all, At Thursday 30 May 2013 21:59:00 DaB. wrote: > Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors. after reading some mails here and in my inbox I would like to make this point a little bit more clear. For first I would like to say sorry. It was not my intension to play down the role of the tool-authors for the Toolserver. The Toolserver can not work without you. It happened several times in the past that I was surprised what tools are possible and sometimes I was also surprised that some strange tools really have many users (that’s the reason I was always very liberal of account requests). And yes some of you help other users with problems (sometimes better than I could), some of you have written how-tos in the wiki, some of you are helping the roots with problems and some of you have offer help or asked for root-rights. The reason I added reason 4 to my mail was disappointment. In my imagination (and I guess that was naive) I thought that when ToolLabs would be ready some day, that 99% of you would just ignore that and continue your work here. I also though that when 2013 ends almost all tools would still be here and only a few tools were moved for experiment (maybe some would even moved back again). I also hoped that the survey would had a bigger participation (>50% and not 10-20%) and that the result would be "stay as long as possible" or "not move at all". With all that I would have travel to the coming general member meeting of WMDE in December to tell the members "The Toolserver has to stay because the tool-authors will not move to ToolLabs, and we need money!". The problem is that something different happened. The result of the survey is that most of you plan to move as soon as possible, some of you writing howtos about moving, and a user told us already how fast ToolLabs is (@Platonides: no, I’m not angry about that). So when I travel to the general member meeting of WMDE (isn’t there a shorter word in English?) and I’m asked "How is the Toolserver? Can you account for more money?" I have to answer "No, the tool- authors have accepted ToolLabs and more money for the toolserver would be wasting.". In German there is the phrase "Mit den Füßen abstimmen" (~to vote with the foots). It means that people show their affection not in a formal election but by using a thing (and not another), or go shopping in a store (and not in another), or visiting a place (and not another) or so on. You have done something similar. Not all of you, maybe not even the majority, but at least a visible minority. You gave me the impression that you think that the Toolserver is dead, that it is not worth the fight, that WMF has already won. You were the last group I had that supported me with the Toolserver. I had already lost the WMDE’s CEO, the general member meeting and also WMDE’s board. Loosing you made it pointless to continue the struggle. Like I said: It was naive. I can not resent you that you like to move to a place that has a future, may be faster and maybe better administrated. I can not resent WMDE that they don’t see that loosing the Toolserver is another step to become more dependent of the WMF. But it hurts nevertheless, because it makes me think that I did something wrong. I would like to add another point: It is a long time until the end of 2013 – I’m not gone yet. I will continue to administrate the Toolserver, and also create new accounts if wished (somebody asked about that). I will just not invest the same amount of time; and how further the year becomes the less time I will invest. Sincerely, DaB. -- Userpage: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]] — PGP: 0x2d3ee2d42b255885 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Toolserver-l mailing list (Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org) https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l Posting guidelines for this list: https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Mailing_list_etiquette
Re: [Toolserver-l] My fading out
Hello, At Thursday 30 May 2013 21:52:04 DaB. wrote: > By efforts and > resources I mean: the wiki, hardware, domains, etc. the wiki (together with JIRA and maybe also the SVN) will vanish together with the toolserver. The plan for the hardware is AFAIk to donate it like WMF does it with their old stuff. I have no idea about the domain at the moment, but maybe WMF could use it to set up a redirect-server – or it will vanish too. Sincerely, DaB. -- Userpage: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]] — PGP: 0x2d3ee2d42b255885 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Toolserver-l mailing list (Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org) https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l Posting guidelines for this list: https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Mailing_list_etiquette
Re: [Toolserver-l] [Toolserver-announce] My fading out
Hallo DaB., (German for a safer choice of words) danke für Dein jahrelanges Engagement. Ich kann selbst höchstens ahnen, was es bedeutet, ein Projekt wie den Toolserver zu administrieren. Aber ich denke, alle Achtung, sowas ehrenamtlich zu stemmen, ist echt eine große Nummer. Danke auch für Deine Fairness, uns so früh Bescheid zu sagen bzw. Deine frühere Ankündigung jetzt so verbindlich zu wiederholen. Das schätze ich sehr, ebenso wie Deine Bereitschaft, Dein Wissen weiterzugeben, bevor Du Dich zurückziehst. Und schließlich auch danke für Deine ehrliche Mail. Ich finde Deine Entscheidung schade, Deine Gründe sind für mich aber auch nachvollziehbar. Silke 2013/5/29 DaB. : > Hello guys, > > I just extended my personal account until 5. January of 2014 – it is the last > time I do this. At this day I will also remove my access as root of the > Toolserver. Beginning of 1. July I will start my fade out, doing less and less > work for the Toolserver until I am not longer visible. I announce that this > early because I think it is fair for you to know that will happen and I like > not just to vanish like some roots before. > > There are 4 main factors why I decided to not continue my work until the end > of the Toolserver in December 2014. > > Reason 1 is that the Toolserver now has a second paid root and 6 months will > be enough to teach amette and nosy what I know about the Toolserver. > > Reason 2 is that there was no real investment in the Toolserver in the first 6 > months of 2013 and I very doubt that there will ever be any in the second half > or beyond. > > Reason 3 is that I learned during the last weekend that the support of the > Toolserver in the board of WMDE reached its minimum. > One board-member announced publicly during the general meeting of WMDE that it > is good that there is a timetable for the Toolserver now – I know only 1 > timetable for the Toolserver and that’s Silke’s plan of destruction > roadmap for migration [1]. > Another board-member told me during a chatting in the halls that ToolLabs (or > the move to) is "klasse" (~great). > It is impossible to improve the Toolserver against the CEO *and* the board of > WMDE. > > Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors. > The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these > few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year > – a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude > that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year. > While I asked for documentation (or at least correction) in the toolserver- > wikis for years, nearly nothing ever happened. But now that ToolLabs is on the > horizon you write documentation for THAT – freely. > And it is really a joke to compare the empty new database-servers of ToolLabs > with our old and heavy loaded servers for performance. Let’s see how fast they > are if 10 slow queries, which had run for hours, run in parallel. > With very few exceptions none of you helped to protect the Toolserver against > ToolLabs; all you were interested in was that ToolLabs provides the same > environment so your tools can continue to run there. When I read such phrases > like "we have to stabilize the Toolserver until Labs is ready" or now "we need > the Toolserver for redirects to ToolLabs" I could vomit! > > I promised in November 2012 that I will stay for another year and I will > fulfill that promise – but not a day longer. There is no point in fighting for > something if the something has already surrendered and no support is there > (not from you, the toolusers, the board of WMDE, the CEO of WMDE or the > general meeting of WMDE). > > These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the > WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does > not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the > WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF > does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the > WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF > is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever > the WMF staff decides will happen. > Maybe if one of these things happen you will remember the tiny, slow, > unstable, but free Toolserver — but it will not be there anymore. > > Sincerely, > DaB. > > > [1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en > [2] https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Labs-Moving-Survey > > > -- > Userpage: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]] — PGP: 0x2d3ee2d42b255885 > > ___ > Toolserver-announce mailing list > toolserver-annou...@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-announce > -- Silke Meyer Internes IT-Management und Projektmanagement Toolserver Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin Tel. (030) 219 158 260 http://wikimedi
Re: [Toolserver-l] My fading out
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Nikola Smolenski wrote: > I am really sorry that you feel this way. From everything saw, as a > volunteer root you were exceedingly professional - more than most > professional roots I know. > I would like to second that sentiment. Regardless of the problems with funding and other support from the WMDE and WMF, I have always found the toolserver a friendly environment with helpful and friendly sysadmins. > For some reasone the survey missed me, and I'd probably answer "not move > at all". But I believe it's not that people don't care, and that most would > stay on the Toolserver were that an option, but it isn't and they see there > is nothing they could do. I think this is the case. As one person wrote on the survey, "I didn't want to [move to wmflabs] but, from what I gathered, it toolserver was going to die no matter what." That sums up my feelings relatively well. - Carl ___ Toolserver-l mailing list (Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org) https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l Posting guidelines for this list: https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Mailing_list_etiquette
Re: [Toolserver-l] My fading out
On 29/05/13 15:09, DaB. wrote: Reason 4 are you, the tool-authors. The participation in my survey [2] was pitiful low and the majority of these few who voted, voted to leave the Toolserver as soon as possible or this year – a trend that was already visible on the mailing-list before. So I conclude that the most of you don’t care and whose care will leave this year. I am really sorry that you feel this way. From everything saw, as a volunteer root you were exceedingly professional - more than most professional roots I know. For some reasone the survey missed me, and I'd probably answer "not move at all". But I believe it's not that people don't care, and that most would stay on the Toolserver were that an option, but it isn't and they see there is nothing they could do. These of you who are able to move to ToolLabs I wish luck. Let’s hope that the WMF does not decide to "re-focus" again too soon. Let’s hope that the WMF does not disable tools just because there are a little slow. Let’s hope that the WMF does not restrict the database-tables even more. Let’s hope that the WMF does not kick the volunteers out completely some days like they did with the WMF-wiki-admins some weeks ago. And hoping is all we can do, because the WMF is a undemocratic construct and ToolLabs is lead by paid roots, so whatever the WMF staff decides will happen. Unfortunately, I have to agree, these are all reasonable possibilities. ___ Toolserver-l mailing list (Toolserver-l@lists.wikimedia.org) https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/toolserver-l Posting guidelines for this list: https://wiki.toolserver.org/view/Mailing_list_etiquette
