Re: Topband: ARRL 160M Test Comments
Clive, The only reason DX was added was that when the contest was decided upon W0DX (Bob Denniston) AKA VP2VI spent most of his time in BVI and was furious that he could not participate. So it was added, very poorly in the rules, as an afterthought to placate the ARRL president. USVI at the closest point is a few miles from BVI but the BVI station at least has a chance to get listed in the results. The U.S. Territories are relegated to second class participants. Last week on the second night I called CQ EU only in silent and obvious protest to the whole thing. I sent Jeff K1ZM, in reply to his well written opinion, an e mail and told him that he was trying to put lipstick on a pig (contest). Herb, KV4FZ On 12/7/2011 8:18 PM, Clive GM3POI wrote: Hi Jeff, That's the problem with the ARRL 160m from a European point of view. Jeff you get 5 points for working me , I get two points for working you, in the same Contest. A no brainer, which is why now although I hold the EU record I do not bother with this one any more, with the exception of the odd QSO. I cannot see a good reason for the points differential other than bias, and to make it a domestic contest with an added bit of DX. 73 Clive GM3POI === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 9.0.0.888, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18850) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: ARRL 160M Test Comments
On 2011-12-08, at 7:53 AM, Pete Smith wrote: I'm not sure if WC1M reads this reflector, but a small suggestion - make that write to your ARRL Director, rather than the Contest *Advisory* Committee. Hi Pete, By writing to your director, what can he do besides refer your note to the CAC...? That latter group has the final say, anyway---so why bother with ...a middle man? He has other things to hold his attention, I'm sure... ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: ARRL 160M Test Comments
Lips on a PIG got it/HTML ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: ARRL 160M Test Comments
On 12/8/2011 8:22 AM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, If each every one of the contributors (and there are many!) to this thread about the 160-meter contest was to take pen paper in hand actually WRITE to his/her representative on the ARRL Contest Committee---with a cc to the committee chairman---I'm sure the numbers alone would make them sit up listen... Eddy, I have been sending them (ARRL CAC) e mails for the last decade and only a few have replied with we will look into it but that is about it. There is something about the ARRL that they go into a bunker mode mindset when even friendly suggestions are made to improve on obvious structural contest mistakes. I am a member of the ARRL and that membership should at least allow access to the CAC. I wish their meetings would be transparent and we could present arguments in writing on agenda issues. IMHO that is the way an open organization is supposed to work. Again after 10 years of writing on this I have no idea if the matter of correcting the ARRL 160 meter contest problems was even discussed or voted on. In their January 2011 Annual Report the CAC did mention that improvements to the ARRL International DX Contest, upon instructions from the PSC (whatever that is) by tasking the CAC to review the rules for possible improvement. I have no idea why the PSC (Programs and Service Committee) is another level of bureacracy needed to improve contests except that the PSC is made up entirely of ARRL Directors and ARRL staff. If it is true that the PSC instructs the CAC then the PSC needs to be informed of the obvious deficiency of the ARRL 160 Meter DX Contest. I will keep trying to contact CAC members but I don't hold out much hope they will even deal with this. And as they don't more and more Top Band regulars are deciding like myself not to participate anymore until they at least realize the issues on this contest are value ones to consider. 73, Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Best small space antennas
Guy-- Thanks-- beautifully described. It is as I thought, but the diagram on the W0UCE page confused me, particularly with the connections to the Counterpoise. Bill--W4BSG - Original Message - From: Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net To: Bill Aycock billayc...@centurytel.net Cc: topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 1:56 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Best small space antennas Bill, Instructions for creating a drawing of the basic configuration: 160 only, no tuning inductors or capacitors. Tuning after construction by adjusting the length of the top of the L. Start in the center of a blank piece of paper. Draw a transformer with a completely separate primary and secondary. Draw the core bars vertical so all of one winding is on the left and all of the other winding is on the right. On the left side of the tranformer connect the upper end of the winding to the inverted L. On the left side of the transformer connect the lower end of the winding to the folded counterpoise. On the right side of the transformer connect the upper end of the winding to the feed coax center conductor. On the right side of the transformer connect the lower end of the winding to the feed coax shield. Do not ground the coax shield until 30-50 feet away from the transformer. That's the wiring diagram. Length of the inverted L is adjusted to prune to resonance at your choice of center frequency. This appears to be centering in the vicinity of 130-140 feet, **IF** you are using an isolation transformer built to our specs, but we will know more when there are 100 of these up in the air and reporting. The transformer is wound on an Amidon T300A-2 #2 material powdered iron toroid. Twenty bifilar turns of #14 double polyimide insulated, sleeved with AWG12 teflon standard wall no shrink sleeving. Requires 15 feet of wire and 15 feet of teflon sleeve, cut in half to make the two winding wires. 73, Guy. On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Bill Aycock billayc...@centurytel.netwrote: Guy--(and others who may contribute) I have been following your posts, and have some questions, brought on by a view at the W0UCE diagrams, at: http://www.w0uce.net/**K2AVantennas.htmlhttp://www.w0uce.net/K2AVantennas.html The top figure seems to match what I understood from your post, but the figure that includes the Inv L confuses me, particularly with regard to the connections. I need a more simplistic description, including the connections to the transformer Thanks- Bill--W4BSG - Original Message - From: Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net To: Jim Miller Waco Texas WB5OXQ wb5ox...@grandecom.net Cc: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 7:57 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Best small space antennas Note: the following is not a theoretical or untested antenna. There are working antennas in the field using the folded counterpoise described below, scoring well in contests**, in use up to a year and more. Contest scores of the sort attained are not made using antennas with significant deficiencies or fundamental flaws. A miscellaneous end-fed inverted L or end-fed inverted U over an elevated 5/16 wave single wire folded counterpoise (FCP) will have good radiation from a small lot, with the ability to put out a strong signal not usually associated with small lots. In the simple implementation of this antenna (160 only), the length of the L or U is adjusted for zero reactance, usually resulting in a 50-60 ohm feed Z at resonance. There are NO radials. The main design point of the antenna is to minimize lossy currents induced in the dirt and confine TX signal current to the FCP and the radiating wire. This is a real, and lossy issue for a few short or miscellaneous radials. Enough of an issue to kill 15 dB. The radiating wire first goes up as much vertical as you can manage, then out as far as manageable, and then down if length is still needed to prune to resonance. The main point is to pick a feed point on the property that has your best vertical rise and then get the rest of the length for resonance however you can. For some properties this has meant putting extra angles in the up+over+down radiator. Some properties will not need the down part. The antenna uses a REQUIRED isolation transformer at the feed point because the counterpoise is NOT resonant, and the feed would really rather use the much lower Z but hugely lossy coax shield current as a counterpoise. The folds in the FCP are designed to maximally reduce counterpoise fields at the ground, reducing lossy currents in the dirt. The isolation transformer's leftover inductive reactance, a disadvantage in many applications, in this case helps to tune out the capacitive reactance of the FCP and reduces the length of the radiating wire needed to achieve simple resonance for the antenna. The counterpoise extends plus and minus 33 feet from
Re: Topband: K7RAT QRP Experience in ARRL 160
when every contact is important as when you run 160m QRP the N6RO approved method is the best MY GOD!!! if N6RO approved it, why isn't every one doing it?? mike w7dra, who always sends N6RO approved we should get a sticker saying this like the ones you see on QSL cards On Mon, 05 Dec 2011 13:19:54 -0700 k6xt k...@k6xt.com writes: Tree thanks for sticking with me when you called me. It took some tries but 1)finally figured out which antenna to use and 2)copied your whole call. I agree entirely about using the N6RO approved always send the other guy's call when SPing. Some fellows will no doubt cringe at the prospect of rate loss. Which is worse? Not knowing who got worked, possibly a penalty QSO, or getting it right the first time? US stations are not the only ones calling off freq. -- 73 Art K6XT~~ Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiasm. ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK Get Free Email with Video Mail Video Chat! http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted
New information, details and drawings for the K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise (FCP) System, Isolation Transformer and Installation Notes have been posted on my website. http://www.w0uce.net/K2AVantennas.html If you are interested in building an FCP versus putting in a dense radial field heed the following advise: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV * Tests using 1:1 Baluns and Line Isolators have ALL FAILED - you waste RF Power, Time and Money unless the specified xfmr is installed * DO NOT attempt to use Insulated Window Line for the FCP - We already tried it and it does not work - too lossy * Use #12 Bare wire for the FCP elements - Moisture gathers on insulated wire and detunes the FCP * Use 4 spacing between FCP elements * Small diameter PVC Pipe Spreaders work well - use caps on both ends and put a small weep hole in the bottom cap * It is best to install the FCP in a straight line the overall length is 66' if bends are necessary make them near the ends of the elements 73, Jack W0UCE ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Topband: solar max vs solar min
topbanders, In response to my posting, Per SM2LIY commented that the polar path at higher solar activity does not work good on topband. He is corret, and I should have added that qualifier. Carl K9LA ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted
Thanks for posting the drawing. What is the projected power handling capability of the described feed transformer? 73 Charlie (Chas) N8RR From: w0...@nc.rr.com To: topband@contesting.com; cw...@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:21:04 -0500 Subject: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted New information, details and drawings for the K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise (FCP) System, Isolation Transformer and Installation Notes have been posted on my website. http://www.w0uce.net/K2AVantennas.html If you are interested in building an FCP versus putting in a dense radial field heed the following advise: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV * Tests using 1:1 Baluns and Line Isolators have ALL FAILED - you waste RF Power, Time and Money unless the specified xfmr is installed * DO NOT attempt to use Insulated Window Line for the FCP - We already tried it and it does not work - too lossy * Use #12 Bare wire for the FCP elements - Moisture gathers on insulated wire and detunes the FCP * Use 4 spacing between FCP elements * Small diameter PVC Pipe Spreaders work well - use caps on both ends and put a small weep hole in the bottom cap * It is best to install the FCP in a straight line the overall length is 66' if bends are necessary make them near the ends of the elements 73, Jack W0UCE ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted
W0UCE wrote: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV * Tests using 1:1 Baluns and Line Isolators have ALL FAILED - you waste RF Power, Time and Money unless the specified xfmr is installed * DO NOT attempt to use Insulated Window Line for the FCP - We already tried it and it does not work - too lossy * Use #12 Bare wire for the FCP elements - Moisture gathers on insulated wire and detunes the FCP I haven't built this system, but the suggestions above make sense. I have been trying to encourage using transformers instead of baluns on 160 meters for years, but it's a tough sell to overcome the balun habit. The tendency for loss in the open wire line also makes sense. It is well known that window line is lossy when wet. What is new here is that the Q is so high that you can't even use insulated wire for open wire line. It would be interesting to see if teflon insulated wire worked OK. The electric field is maximum right at the conductor surface, so the insulation has a considerable effect on characteristic impedance, thus I could imagine it would affect loss too. I am feeding my vertical using 850 feet of open wire line with XHHW insulation (whatever that is made out of). It would be interesting to measure the loss on a rainy day and see how much it increased. It's only a few tenths of a dB when dry (the wires are 4 AWG aluminum). Rick N6RK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted
Full Legal Limit has been used on my and K2AV's Inverted L Antennas with FCP and Isolation Transformers as described without any problems. -Original Message- From: Charlie Young [mailto:weeks...@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 9:36 PM To: w0...@nc.rr.com; topband@contesting.com Subject: RE: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted Thanks for posting the drawing. What is the projected power handling capability of the described feed transformer? 73 Charlie (Chas) N8RR From: w0...@nc.rr.com To: topband@contesting.com; cw...@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:21:04 -0500 Subject: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted New information, details and drawings for the K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise (FCP) System, Isolation Transformer and Installation Notes have been posted on my website. http://www.w0uce.net/K2AVantennas.html If you are interested in building an FCP versus putting in a dense radial field heed the following advise: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV * Tests using 1:1 Baluns and Line Isolators have ALL FAILED - you waste RF Power, Time and Money unless the specified xfmr is installed * DO NOT attempt to use Insulated Window Line for the FCP - We already tried it and it does not work - too lossy * Use #12 Bare wire for the FCP elements - Moisture gathers on insulated wire and detunes the FCP * Use 4 spacing between FCP elements * Small diameter PVC Pipe Spreaders work well - use caps on both ends and put a small weep hole in the bottom cap * It is best to install the FCP in a straight line the overall length is 66' if bends are necessary make them near the ends of the elements 73, Jack W0UCE ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted
We appreciate your comments regarding FCP construction Rick. We have Guy, K2AV to thank - he is the developer, designer, engineer and I am fortunate to be his Field Trial Guinea Pig -Original Message- From: Rick Karlquist [mailto:rich...@karlquist.com] Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 9:42 PM To: W0UCE Cc: topband@contesting.com; cw...@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted W0UCE wrote: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV * Tests using 1:1 Baluns and Line Isolators have ALL FAILED - you waste RF Power, Time and Money unless the specified xfmr is installed * DO NOT attempt to use Insulated Window Line for the FCP - We already tried it and it does not work - too lossy * Use #12 Bare wire for the FCP elements - Moisture gathers on insulated wire and detunes the FCP I haven't built this system, but the suggestions above make sense. I have been trying to encourage using transformers instead of baluns on 160 meters for years, but it's a tough sell to overcome the balun habit. The tendency for loss in the open wire line also makes sense. It is well known that window line is lossy when wet. What is new here is that the Q is so high that you can't even use insulated wire for open wire line. It would be interesting to see if teflon insulated wire worked OK. The electric field is maximum right at the conductor surface, so the insulation has a considerable effect on characteristic impedance, thus I could imagine it would affect loss too. I am feeding my vertical using 850 feet of open wire line with XHHW insulation (whatever that is made out of). It would be interesting to measure the loss on a rainy day and see how much it increased. It's only a few tenths of a dB when dry (the wires are 4 AWG aluminum). Rick N6RK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, W0UCE w0...@nc.rr.com wrote: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV I was thinking of sliding a whole bunch of ferrite beads over the coax feedline right at the end. But I'll take your word for it. This is all very interesting. I'd sure like to try Guy's invention myself. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - Ferrite Beads
Mike: Don't waste your money, time and effort trying ferrite beads, baluns, line isolators or anything EXCEPT the Isolation Transformer... On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, W0UCE w0...@nc.rr.com wrote: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV I was thinking of sliding a whole bunch of ferrite beads over the coax feedline right at the end. But I'll take your word for it. This is all very interesting. I'd sure like to try Guy's invention myself. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted
sense. It is well known that window line is lossy when wet. I am curious if anyone has actually measured this over a range of frequencies. Afaik, the it's lossy when wet is based on a model that I've seen some say overstates the loss for a wet window line. I am feeding my vertical using 850 feet of open wire line with XHHW insulation (whatever that is made out of). XHHW uses cross-linked polyethylene insulation. It is very tough (it's used on triplex-type power lines), and I would expect it to have essentially the same electrical properties as regular polyethylene wire since it's very nearly the same chemical composition. It would be interesting to measure the loss on a rainy day and see how much it increased. Rick N6RK You could probably do a more controlled test just wetting the lines with a garden hose :-) -Bill [Sent using Blackberry Messaging] ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted
Just a word on ferrite beads, and other kinds of baluns. Trust us, if it could be done wrong, we blew it, if it could burn, we burned it, if it could be cracked, we shattered it, if it couldn't stand up to 1.5 kw, we smoked it. We tried every possible short cut and cheep trick imaginable. Anything except winding a special transformer that we couldn't buy ready-made off a shelf somewhere. We got where we got because ultimately only a rugged isolation transformer would get it done. We are NOT opposed to your verifying our experience in that regard, by starting with beads and working your way up. Get in a supply of tranquilizers before you start. Only do one better than we did, take pictures/video of the carnage for the entertainment of the masses. The specific construction of the transformer stands up to brick-on-key 1.5 kw and runs cold. There is a reason for the low mu powdered iron choice. 73, Guy. On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, W0UCE w0...@nc.rr.com wrote: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV I was thinking of sliding a whole bunch of ferrite beads over the coax feedline right at the end. But I'll take your word for it. This is all very interesting. I'd sure like to try Guy's invention myself. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted
We built and tested a window line FCP - when it was dry and wet... it was a dismal failure. Been there, done that and I have three lengths of window line cut and connected together in a 33, 66, 66 section globs in my storage shed. It is available immediately to the highest bidder, shipping and handling at buyer's expense... And... BTW: A loss calculator for wet or dry window line available at: http://vk1od.net/calc/tl/tlc.php sense. It is well known that window line is lossy when wet. I am curious if anyone has actually measured this over a range of frequencies. Afaik, the it's lossy when wet is based on a model that I've seen some say overstates the loss for a wet window line. I am feeding my vertical using 850 feet of open wire line with XHHW insulation (whatever that is made out of). XHHW uses cross-linked polyethylene insulation. It is very tough (it's used on triplex-type power lines), and I would expect it to have essentially the same electrical properties as regular polyethylene wire since it's very nearly the same chemical composition. It would be interesting to measure the loss on a rainy day and see how much it increased. Rick N6RK You could probably do a more controlled test just wetting the lines with a garden hose :-) -Bill [Sent using Blackberry Messaging] ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted
Im currently one of those ' Limited Space 160 Ops' .. @ moment im using an 'Inv L' to use the term loosley. ( Diagram Attached ) I am really thinking about trying one of these FCP's.. altho it would take some considerable work removing whats already in place.. but no big deal. My question is this.. the actuall FCP Element(s) can they be aranged so that from the Feed Point they would look like an extreemley wide 'V' and not straight? ( Instead of 180 deg to one another .. say mabey 130 deg) Also.. would near buy house(s) hinder their tuning / Operation @ published lengths? If I was to install one here.. to keep my current feed point position where it is ( best for vertical rise in my case ) .. the Feed would be @ corner of house.. with 33' of the FCP in the back yard in the clear @ 8-10' up.. and the other 1/2 (33' ) of the FCP running alongside my house.. @ 8-10' up. -Steve Raas N2JDQ On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.netwrote: Just a word on ferrite beads, and other kinds of baluns. Trust us, if it could be done wrong, we blew it, if it could burn, we burned it, if it could be cracked, we shattered it, if it couldn't stand up to 1.5 kw, we smoked it. We tried every possible short cut and cheep trick imaginable. Anything except winding a special transformer that we couldn't buy ready-made off a shelf somewhere. We got where we got because ultimately only a rugged isolation transformer would get it done. We are NOT opposed to your verifying our experience in that regard, by starting with beads and working your way up. Get in a supply of tranquilizers before you start. Only do one better than we did, take pictures/video of the carnage for the entertainment of the masses. The specific construction of the transformer stands up to brick-on-key 1.5 kw and runs cold. There is a reason for the low mu powdered iron choice. 73, Guy. On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, W0UCE w0...@nc.rr.com wrote: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV I was thinking of sliding a whole bunch of ferrite beads over the coax feedline right at the end. But I'll take your word for it. This is all very interesting. I'd sure like to try Guy's invention myself. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New DetailsPosted
Steve: As long as you keep the middle 20 feet (10' on either side of the center feed point) in a straight line for cancellation purposes, you can put the remainder in the shape of a V or bend as necessary. 73, Jack -Original Message- From: topband-boun...@contesting.com [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Steven Raas Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 10:59 PM To: Guy Olinger K2AV Cc: Mike Waters; topband Subject: Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New DetailsPosted Im currently one of those ' Limited Space 160 Ops' .. @ moment im using an 'Inv L' to use the term loosley. ( Diagram Attached ) I am really thinking about trying one of these FCP's.. altho it would take some considerable work removing whats already in place.. but no big deal. My question is this.. the actuall FCP Element(s) can they be aranged so that from the Feed Point they would look like an extreemley wide 'V' and not straight? ( Instead of 180 deg to one another .. say mabey 130 deg) Also.. would near buy house(s) hinder their tuning / Operation @ published lengths? If I was to install one here.. to keep my current feed point position where it is ( best for vertical rise in my case ) .. the Feed would be @ corner of house.. with 33' of the FCP in the back yard in the clear @ 8-10' up.. and the other 1/2 (33' ) of the FCP running alongside my house.. @ 8-10' up. -Steve Raas N2JDQ On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.netwrote: Just a word on ferrite beads, and other kinds of baluns. Trust us, if it could be done wrong, we blew it, if it could burn, we burned it, if it could be cracked, we shattered it, if it couldn't stand up to 1.5 kw, we smoked it. We tried every possible short cut and cheep trick imaginable. Anything except winding a special transformer that we couldn't buy ready-made off a shelf somewhere. We got where we got because ultimately only a rugged isolation transformer would get it done. We are NOT opposed to your verifying our experience in that regard, by starting with beads and working your way up. Get in a supply of tranquilizers before you start. Only do one better than we did, take pictures/video of the carnage for the entertainment of the masses. The specific construction of the transformer stands up to brick-on-key 1.5 kw and runs cold. There is a reason for the low mu powdered iron choice. 73, Guy. On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, W0UCE w0...@nc.rr.com wrote: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV I was thinking of sliding a whole bunch of ferrite beads over the coax feedline right at the end. But I'll take your word for it. This is all very interesting. I'd sure like to try Guy's invention myself. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New DetailsPosted
No need to dig up existing stuff to keep from affecting the FCP. Deal with existing radials according to your needs and common sense. They might help some, though there certainly is no proof of that. If you can't see 'em and aren't tripping on them, why bother to mess with them. 73, Guy. On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:05 PM, W0UCE w0...@nc.rr.com wrote: Steve: As long as you keep the middle 20 feet (10' on either side of the center feed point) in a straight line for cancellation purposes, you can put the remainder in the shape of a V or bend as necessary. 73, Jack -Original Message- From: topband-boun...@contesting.com [mailto: topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Steven Raas Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 10:59 PM To: Guy Olinger K2AV Cc: Mike Waters; topband Subject: Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New DetailsPosted Im currently one of those ' Limited Space 160 Ops' .. @ moment im using an 'Inv L' to use the term loosley. ( Diagram Attached ) I am really thinking about trying one of these FCP's.. altho it would take some considerable work removing whats already in place.. but no big deal. My question is this.. the actuall FCP Element(s) can they be aranged so that from the Feed Point they would look like an extreemley wide 'V' and not straight? ( Instead of 180 deg to one another .. say mabey 130 deg) Also.. would near buy house(s) hinder their tuning / Operation @ published lengths? If I was to install one here.. to keep my current feed point position where it is ( best for vertical rise in my case ) .. the Feed would be @ corner of house.. with 33' of the FCP in the back yard in the clear @ 8-10' up.. and the other 1/2 (33' ) of the FCP running alongside my house.. @ 8-10' up. -Steve Raas N2JDQ On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.netwrote: Just a word on ferrite beads, and other kinds of baluns. Trust us, if it could be done wrong, we blew it, if it could burn, we burned it, if it could be cracked, we shattered it, if it couldn't stand up to 1.5 kw, we smoked it. We tried every possible short cut and cheep trick imaginable. Anything except winding a special transformer that we couldn't buy ready-made off a shelf somewhere. We got where we got because ultimately only a rugged isolation transformer would get it done. We are NOT opposed to your verifying our experience in that regard, by starting with beads and working your way up. Get in a supply of tranquilizers before you start. Only do one better than we did, take pictures/video of the carnage for the entertainment of the masses. The specific construction of the transformer stands up to brick-on-key 1.5 kw and runs cold. There is a reason for the low mu powdered iron choice. 73, Guy. On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, W0UCE w0...@nc.rr.com wrote: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV I was thinking of sliding a whole bunch of ferrite beads over the coax feedline right at the end. But I'll take your word for it. This is all very interesting. I'd sure like to try Guy's invention myself. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise Antenna - New Details Posted
An actual pic of this transformer would be worth a thousand words. The drawings are great but I'd love to see this thing wound and connected for real. I don't have any experience with such things so having a pic to show details of how it works when drawings meet reality is priceless. Thanks for all this, pretty interesting. On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, W0UCE w0...@nc.rr.com wrote: New information, details and drawings for the K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise (FCP) System, Isolation Transformer and Installation Notes have been posted on my website. http://www.w0uce.net/K2AVantennas.html If you are interested in building an FCP versus putting in a dense radial field heed the following advise: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV * Tests using 1:1 Baluns and Line Isolators have ALL FAILED - you waste RF Power, Time and Money unless the specified xfmr is installed * DO NOT attempt to use Insulated Window Line for the FCP - We already tried it and it does not work - too lossy * Use #12 Bare wire for the FCP elements - Moisture gathers on insulated wire and detunes the FCP * Use 4 spacing between FCP elements * Small diameter PVC Pipe Spreaders work well - use caps on both ends and put a small weep hole in the bottom cap * It is best to install the FCP in a straight line the overall length is 66' if bends are necessary make them near the ends of the elements 73, Jack W0UCE ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise XFMR Photo Request
The way my XFMR is mounted in the enclosure I can't take a decent photo of it. I have asked Guy to provide a photo of his installed xfmr or a photo of one not yet installed. When I receive the photos I'll post them on the page. 73, Jack An actual pic of this transformer would be worth a thousand words. The drawings are great but I'd love to see this thing wound and connected for real. I don't have any experience with such things so having a pic to show details of how it works when drawings meet reality is priceless. Thanks for all this, pretty interesting. On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, W0UCE w0...@nc.rr.com wrote: New information, details and drawings for the K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise (FCP) System, Isolation Transformer and Installation Notes have been posted on my website. http://www.w0uce.net/K2AVantennas.html If you are interested in building an FCP versus putting in a dense radial field heed the following advise: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV * Tests using 1:1 Baluns and Line Isolators have ALL FAILED - you waste RF Power, Time and Money unless the specified xfmr is installed * DO NOT attempt to use Insulated Window Line for the FCP - We already tried it and it does not work - too lossy * Use #12 Bare wire for the FCP elements - Moisture gathers on insulated wire and detunes the FCP * Use 4 spacing between FCP elements * Small diameter PVC Pipe Spreaders work well - use caps on both ends and put a small weep hole in the bottom cap * It is best to install the FCP in a straight line the overall length is 66' if bends are necessary make them near the ends of the elements 73, Jack W0UCE ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise XFMR Photo Request
Outstanding, I'll be keeping an eye out. On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:38 PM, W0UCE w0...@nc.rr.com wrote: The way my XFMR is mounted in the enclosure I can't take a decent photo of it. I have asked Guy to provide a photo of his installed xfmr or a photo of one not yet installed. When I receive the photos I'll post them on the page. 73, Jack An actual pic of this transformer would be worth a thousand words. The drawings are great but I'd love to see this thing wound and connected for real. I don't have any experience with such things so having a pic to show details of how it works when drawings meet reality is priceless. Thanks for all this, pretty interesting. On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 7:21 PM, W0UCE w0...@nc.rr.com wrote: New information, details and drawings for the K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise (FCP) System, Isolation Transformer and Installation Notes have been posted on my website. http://www.w0uce.net/K2AVantennas.html If you are interested in building an FCP versus putting in a dense radial field heed the following advise: * The ONLY means of achieving the required degree of Isolation is to use the Isolation Transformer as specified by K2AV * Tests using 1:1 Baluns and Line Isolators have ALL FAILED - you waste RF Power, Time and Money unless the specified xfmr is installed * DO NOT attempt to use Insulated Window Line for the FCP - We already tried it and it does not work - too lossy * Use #12 Bare wire for the FCP elements - Moisture gathers on insulated wire and detunes the FCP * Use 4 spacing between FCP elements * Small diameter PVC Pipe Spreaders work well - use caps on both ends and put a small weep hole in the bottom cap * It is best to install the FCP in a straight line the overall length is 66' if bends are necessary make them near the ends of the elements 73, Jack W0UCE ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
