Re: Topband: [Bulk] Re: Remote pre-amp power source

[Grant Saviers]

The way to squeeze the most watt-hours out of panels and into batteries 
is with MPPT regulators.  "Maximum power point" regulators that adjust 
rapidly to the real time insolation.  A series regulator is throwing 
away W-H.


See  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_point_tracking

some interesting references particularly the thesis that describes what 
he built with the PIC based controller.


OTOH, a 15 to 20 watt panel connected to a 100 A-H battery really 
doesn't need a regulator.  Just check the water every few months.  I had 
such a setup run a community water system radio control of the well 
pumps and the battery would last about 5 years 24 x 365, with about a 
50ma load.  Worked in San Jose, CA.  Might not work in Seattle. :-(


Grant KZ1W
Redmond, WA

On 9/25/2014 4:33 PM, Don Kirk wrote:

Hi Bruce,

Their are numerous methods used for sizing solar panel systems, and using
one of the common methods provides the following for your application as
follows :

Using a battery charging efficiency factor of 120%, and Portland Maine as
the location (winter average = 3.56 sun hours/day) .  And designing for a
reserve capacity of 3 days (3 days of no sun), with a minimum battery
capacity of 50%.

If designing for continuous power applied to the preamp (24 hours per day)
: Required battery capacity = 18.7 Ah, Solar panel = 1.05 amps (almost a 20
watt panel).

If designing for 15 hours of continuous service (using a day/night
controller) : Required battery capacity = 11.7 Ah, Solar Panel = 0.66 amps
(approximately a 10 watt panel).

The above method is somewhat simplistic (does not take into account how
cold temperature impacts the capacity of the battery, etc.), nevertheless
it provides some reasonable numbers to put things into perspective.

I'm sure you will think the panel and battery are large, but that's what it
takes to handle continuous service during the winter when day light is
minimum.

Note : solar panels really operate like a constant current source versus a
constant voltage source, therefore a typical solar panel for 12 volt
battery charging will have an open circuit voltage of around 21 volts but
this is under a zero output current condition.  The maximum output current
of a solar panel is when you have it's output short circuited but it's
current at max power is not much less than its short circuit current.  An
easy way to characterize what kind of panel you have is to measure under
bright sunlight the short circuit current, and the open circuit voltage of
the panel.

Don (wd8dsb)


On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:55 PM,  wrote:


Hi Don,

Pre-amp requires 12-18 volts at 130ma. (low band DXing- nightime use)

This  solar charger puts out 20 volts that could be reduced to 15 volts
with a three legged regulator.  I was hoping to find a pre-assembled
charger & battery, but may have to build one.
http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-solar-battery-charger-68692.html

73
Bruce-K1FZ

   What is the operating current and voltage of the preamp you plan to
use?  Since it sounds like the preamp will be powered on all the time this
information will be key in the selection of the battery capacity and solar
panel rating.
Don (wd8dsb)

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:30 PM,   wrote:

   Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with solar
cell charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ?
73 Bruce-K1FZ
www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html

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Re: Topband: Fw: Remote pre-amp power source

[Gary K9GS]

Hello Bruce,

You might also try a nearby marine equipment dealer.  They make solar 
charging systems for keeping boat batteries charged and also for 
sailboat electronics.



On 9/25/2014 6:36 PM, k1fz wrote:

Thanks to all for all the good information. Appreciate the help.
Planning to run the preamp only in darkness with the help of a photo 
electric cell and light/sunlight.


73
Bruce-K1FZ
www.qsl.net/k1fz/bogantennanotes/index.html


Ah if runing 24/7. And if your use is mostly during the
winter, take into account that days are shorter and sometimes not very
bright.


_


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--
73,

Gary K9GS

Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
CW Ops #1032   http://www.cwops.org




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Topband: Fw: Remote pre-amp power source

[k1fz]

Thanks to all for all the good information. Appreciate the help.
Planning to run the preamp only in darkness with the help of a photo 
electric cell and light/sunlight.


73
Bruce-K1FZ
www.qsl.net/k1fz/bogantennanotes/index.html


Ah if runing 24/7. And if your use is mostly during the
winter, take into account that days are shorter and sometimes not very
bright.


_


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Re: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source

[Tom W8JI]

Something to keep in mind

Even in a quiet location with a -10 dBd gain very directional antenna, the 
preamp can be thousands of feet from the antenna on 160 with no ill effects. 
My eight vertical array, for example, has about 600 feet of F6, then 2000 
feet of F11, then the preamp. It limits on propagated noise even in 
daylight.


Of course there are things that might make a remote amplifier useful, such 
as very lossy feedlines and very low gain antennas, but even 3000 feet of 
F11 type cable between antenna and preamp isn't an issue with normal 
antennas. What might be an issue is a compact loop or other very negative 
gain antenna.




- Original Message - 
From: 

To: "Don Kirk" 
Cc: "Topband" 
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source




Hi Don,

Pre-amp requires 12-18 volts at 130ma. (low band DXing- nightime use)

This solar charger puts out 20 volts that could be reduced to 15 volts 
with a three legged regulator. I was hoping to find a pre-assembled 
charger & battery, but may have to build one.

http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-solar-battery-charger-68692.html

73
Bruce-K1FZ

  What is the operating current and voltage of the preamp you plan to 
use? Since it sounds like the preamp will be powered on all the time this 
information will be key in the selection of the battery capacity and solar 
panel rating.

Don (wd8dsb)

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:30 PM,   wrote:

  Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with solar 
cell charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ?

73 Bruce-K1FZ
www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html

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Re: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source

[Don Kirk]

Hi Bruce,

Their are numerous methods used for sizing solar panel systems, and using
one of the common methods provides the following for your application as
follows :

Using a battery charging efficiency factor of 120%, and Portland Maine as
the location (winter average = 3.56 sun hours/day) .  And designing for a
reserve capacity of 3 days (3 days of no sun), with a minimum battery
capacity of 50%.

If designing for continuous power applied to the preamp (24 hours per day)
: Required battery capacity = 18.7 Ah, Solar panel = 1.05 amps (almost a 20
watt panel).

If designing for 15 hours of continuous service (using a day/night
controller) : Required battery capacity = 11.7 Ah, Solar Panel = 0.66 amps
(approximately a 10 watt panel).

The above method is somewhat simplistic (does not take into account how
cold temperature impacts the capacity of the battery, etc.), nevertheless
it provides some reasonable numbers to put things into perspective.

I'm sure you will think the panel and battery are large, but that's what it
takes to handle continuous service during the winter when day light is
minimum.

Note : solar panels really operate like a constant current source versus a
constant voltage source, therefore a typical solar panel for 12 volt
battery charging will have an open circuit voltage of around 21 volts but
this is under a zero output current condition.  The maximum output current
of a solar panel is when you have it's output short circuited but it's
current at max power is not much less than its short circuit current.  An
easy way to characterize what kind of panel you have is to measure under
bright sunlight the short circuit current, and the open circuit voltage of
the panel.

Don (wd8dsb)


On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:55 PM,  wrote:

>
> Hi Don,
>
> Pre-amp requires 12-18 volts at 130ma. (low band DXing- nightime use)
>
> This  solar charger puts out 20 volts that could be reduced to 15 volts
> with a three legged regulator.  I was hoping to find a pre-assembled
> charger & battery, but may have to build one.
> http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-solar-battery-charger-68692.html
>
> 73
> Bruce-K1FZ
>
>   What is the operating current and voltage of the preamp you plan to
> use?  Since it sounds like the preamp will be powered on all the time this
> information will be key in the selection of the battery capacity and solar
> panel rating.
> Don (wd8dsb)
>
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:30 PM,   wrote:
>
>   Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with solar
> cell charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ?
> 73 Bruce-K1FZ
> www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html
>
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> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
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>
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Re: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source

[Jim Brown]

On Thu,9/25/2014 11:55 AM, k...@myfairpoint.net wrote:
I was hoping to find a pre-assembled charger & battery, but may have 
to build one. 


Don't count on anything from Harbor Freight being RF-quiet. :)

Here's a simple hysteresis-type charge controller that is RF-quiet. It's 
also cheap -- $20. It's not as efficient as the Genesun, but may be 
enough to run a preamp, depending on the panel(s) and battery. Remember 
that unless the preamp is switched on and off when not in use, that 130 
mA becomes 3.1 Ah if runing 24/7. And if your use is mostly during the 
winter, take into account that days are shorter and sometimes not very 
bright.


http://www.batteryjunction.com/sunforce-60012.html?gclid=CIe49eKK_cACFROTfgodl0oAJg

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source

[k1fz]

Hi Don,

Pre-amp requires 12-18 volts at 130ma. (low band DXing- nightime use)

This  solar charger puts out 20 volts that could be reduced to 15 
volts with a three legged regulator.  I was hoping to find a 
pre-assembled charger & battery, but may have to build one. 


http://www.harborfreight.com/15-watt-solar-battery-charger-68692.html

73
Bruce-K1FZ

  What is the operating current and voltage of the preamp you plan 
to use?  Since it sounds like the preamp will be powered on all the 
time this information will be key in the selection of the battery 
capacity and solar panel rating. 


Don (wd8dsb)

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:30 PM,   wrote:

  Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with 
solar cell charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ?

73 Bruce-K1FZ
www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html

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Re: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source

[Jim Brown]

On Thu,9/25/2014 10:56 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
Lots of batteries, chargers, and solar charge controllers here. 
http://www.batteryspace.com/ 


I forgot to mention that the Genasun GV-series MPPT charge controllers 
are RF quiet. They make 5A and 10A controllers for Lead-Acid, Li-Ion, 
and LiFePO4 batteries. They are US-made, and not cheap.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: Remote pre-amp power source

[Jim Brown]

On Thu,9/25/2014 10:30 AM, k...@myfairpoint.net wrote:

Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with solar cell 
charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ?
(Not looking to power up through the coax cable)


Lots of batteries, chargers, and solar charge controllers here. 
http://www.batteryspace.com/


The company is based in the SF Bay Area, and is the US partner of a 
small (by Chinese standards) Chinese battery manufacturer. The Chinese 
company makes the individual cells, the US company packages them for a 
very wide range of applications and sells them. My neighbor, W6GJB, 
bought one of their LiFePO4  packs for use with his KX3 and KXPA100 that 
looks quite solid.  Choose the battery technology you want to use, then 
the voltage range, and you get a page of packs with many different 
package sizes and current ranges. Many of the packaging differences are 
made to fit as replacements for custom packs in all sorts of equipment.


73, Jim K9YC


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Topband: Remote pre-amp power source

[k1fz]

Anyone using, or know of a source, for a compact battery with solar cell 
charger, to power a remote antenna pre-amp ?
(Not looking to power up through the coax cable)

73
Bruce-K1FZ
www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html

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Re: Topband: Smart meter interference

[Jim Brown]

Yes, and this IS the sort of issue that ought to be posted to the RFI 
reflector, and addressed to ARRL. Be prepared to provide the info 
Charlie has noted.


73, Jim K9YC

On Thu,9/25/2014 7:37 AM, Charlie wrote:

Gee that's a really bad one, Jim!

I've spent many years of my life getting electricity meters compliant with
FCC rules!  Sound like that on is non-compliant with either the radiated or
perhaps more likely, line-conducted, emissions! Can you tell me who is the
manufacturer of the manufacturer of the meter? Sadly, you may  have to take
the issue up with the utility and the FCC.

Regards,
Charlie, K4OTV

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Monahan
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:10 AM
To: topband
Subject: Topband: Smart meter interference

All:

While this might best be addressed to the RFI reflector, I'm wondering if
among the learned subscribers here on the Topband reflector, some of you
might have some knowledge or experience with this issue.

Recently, a smart meter was installed here and immediately I heard a buzzing
sound on all of the lower bands including 160 but it was loudest on 30
meters followed by 40 meters.

On 30 meters, it was 10 over S9!

Using the NB-Wide mode eliminates most of it but causes the usual distortion
associated with the NB being turned on.

It is there most of the time during the day and sometimes during the night.

After considerable effort including shutting down all power throughout my
house and checking the power system ground, a battery operated AM/FM/SW
radio confirmed it was loudest behind the back of the meter.

This is the digital electronics analyzing data that is causing the problem
and not the RF signal that is around 902 MHz.

Sweeping the band, the levels peaks about every 3 MHz including at 7 and
10 MHz.

ARRL says they have had no complaints about these meters!

A maintenance engineer from the utility confirmed the problem and says his
expressed concerns were not addressed.

He further indicated that at business, condo and apartment complexes where
large number of these meters are installed, the interference was
particularly noticed.

I suspect that some appropriate filter at the back of the meter would at
least reduce the level but I wonder if anyone has addressed this problem.

It looks like moving my antennas farther from the house is the most
expeditious route in reducing the levels detected.

Perhaps a direct reply would be best to avoid excessive bandwidth here.

Thanks in advance.

Jim, K1PX

K1PX at msn.com
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Re: Topband: Smart meter interference

[Charlie]

Thanks, Jim

 

Well, it's a Landis+Gyr Focus Meter, single-phase, Form 2S . One thing that
I noted is that it's really off-center in the meter cover? It might be
damaged or improperly assembled or installed. Seems that Landis + Gyr might
have sold off part of their business a while back. I can go up to the FCC
Equipment Authorization pages and see what's on file for it  up there. Your
noise might be digital microprocessor junk, or it could also be related to
some of the internal switching power supplies. Let me see what I might
learn! I'd start by filing a complaint with the utility.  Are you on New
England Electric's system?

 

I'll be back in touch.

73

Charlie, K4OTV

 

From: Jim Monahan [mailto:k...@msn.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 11:17 AM
To: Charlie
Subject: Re: Topband: Smart meter interference

 

Charlie:

 

I ended up taking two .jpg pics of the front of the meter which shows

all of the info. UI is the name of the utility.

 

Thanks for any info!

 

Jim, K1PX

 

k...@msn.com

- Original Message - 

From: Charlie   

To: 'Jim Monahan'   ; 'topband'
  

Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 10:37 AM

Subject: RE: Topband: Smart meter interference

 

Gee that's a really bad one, Jim!

I've spent many years of my life getting electricity meters compliant with
FCC rules!  Sound like that on is non-compliant with either the radiated or
perhaps more likely, line-conducted, emissions! Can you tell me who is the
manufacturer of the manufacturer of the meter? Sadly, you may  have to take
the issue up with the utility and the FCC.

Regards,
Charlie, K4OTV

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Monahan
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:10 AM
To: topband
Subject: Topband: Smart meter interference

All:

While this might best be addressed to the RFI reflector, I'm wondering if
among the learned subscribers here on the Topband reflector, some of you
might have some knowledge or experience with this issue.

Recently, a smart meter was installed here and immediately I heard a buzzing
sound on all of the lower bands including 160 but it was loudest on 30
meters followed by 40 meters.

On 30 meters, it was 10 over S9!

Using the NB-Wide mode eliminates most of it but causes the usual distortion
associated with the NB being turned on.

It is there most of the time during the day and sometimes during the night.

After considerable effort including shutting down all power throughout my
house and checking the power system ground, a battery operated AM/FM/SW
radio confirmed it was loudest behind the back of the meter.

This is the digital electronics analyzing data that is causing the problem
and not the RF signal that is around 902 MHz.

Sweeping the band, the levels peaks about every 3 MHz including at 7 and
10 MHz.

ARRL says they have had no complaints about these meters!

A maintenance engineer from the utility confirmed the problem and says his
expressed concerns were not addressed.

He further indicated that at business, condo and apartment complexes where
large number of these meters are installed, the interference was
particularly noticed.

I suspect that some appropriate filter at the back of the meter would at
least reduce the level but I wonder if anyone has addressed this problem.

It looks like moving my antennas farther from the house is the most
expeditious route in reducing the levels detected.

Perhaps a direct reply would be best to avoid excessive bandwidth here.

Thanks in advance.

Jim, K1PX

K1PX at msn.com
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Re: Topband: Smart meter interference

[Charlie]

Gee that's a really bad one, Jim!

I've spent many years of my life getting electricity meters compliant with
FCC rules!  Sound like that on is non-compliant with either the radiated or
perhaps more likely, line-conducted, emissions! Can you tell me who is the
manufacturer of the manufacturer of the meter? Sadly, you may  have to take
the issue up with the utility and the FCC.

Regards,
Charlie, K4OTV

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Monahan
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:10 AM
To: topband
Subject: Topband: Smart meter interference

All:

While this might best be addressed to the RFI reflector, I'm wondering if
among the learned subscribers here on the Topband reflector, some of you
might have some knowledge or experience with this issue.

Recently, a smart meter was installed here and immediately I heard a buzzing
sound on all of the lower bands including 160 but it was loudest on 30
meters followed by 40 meters.

On 30 meters, it was 10 over S9!

Using the NB-Wide mode eliminates most of it but causes the usual distortion
associated with the NB being turned on.

It is there most of the time during the day and sometimes during the night.

After considerable effort including shutting down all power throughout my
house and checking the power system ground, a battery operated AM/FM/SW
radio confirmed it was loudest behind the back of the meter.

This is the digital electronics analyzing data that is causing the problem
and not the RF signal that is around 902 MHz.

Sweeping the band, the levels peaks about every 3 MHz including at 7 and
10 MHz.

ARRL says they have had no complaints about these meters!

A maintenance engineer from the utility confirmed the problem and says his
expressed concerns were not addressed.

He further indicated that at business, condo and apartment complexes where
large number of these meters are installed, the interference was
particularly noticed.

I suspect that some appropriate filter at the back of the meter would at
least reduce the level but I wonder if anyone has addressed this problem.

It looks like moving my antennas farther from the house is the most
expeditious route in reducing the levels detected.

Perhaps a direct reply would be best to avoid excessive bandwidth here.

Thanks in advance.

Jim, K1PX

K1PX at msn.com
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Topband: Smart meter interference

[Jim Monahan]

All:

While this might best be addressed to the RFI reflector, I'm wondering
if among the learned subscribers here on the Topband reflector, some
of you might have some knowledge or experience with this issue.

Recently, a smart meter was installed here and immediately I heard a buzzing
sound on all of the lower bands including 160 but it was loudest on 30 meters
followed by 40 meters.

On 30 meters, it was 10 over S9!

Using the NB-Wide mode eliminates most of it but causes the usual distortion
associated with the NB being turned on.

It is there most of the time during the day and sometimes during the night.

After considerable effort including shutting down all power throughout my
house and checking the power system ground, a battery operated AM/FM/SW
radio confirmed it was loudest behind the back of the meter.

This is the digital electronics analyzing data that is causing the problem and
not the RF signal that is around 902 MHz.

Sweeping the band, the levels peaks about every 3 MHz including at 7 and
10 MHz.

ARRL says they have had no complaints about these meters!

A maintenance engineer from the utility confirmed the problem and says
his expressed concerns were not addressed.

He further indicated that at business, condo and apartment complexes where
large number of these meters are installed, the interference was particularly
noticed.

I suspect that some appropriate filter at the back of the meter would at least
reduce the level but I wonder if anyone has addressed this problem.

It looks like moving my antennas farther from the house is the most expeditious
route in reducing the levels detected.

Perhaps a direct reply would be best to avoid excessive bandwidth here.

Thanks in advance.

Jim, K1PX

K1PX at msn.com
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