Re: Topband: Modeling Ground and losses
Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote: Of interest here is that the benchmark Brown, Lewis and Epstein I.R.E paper on ground systems does not show such standing waves along buried radials (clip below). Of interest down here is surface-buried radials down here show definite standing waves in actual measurements, so it doesn't care what BL and E measured. Their Fig. 7 shows results of simplified (manual) calculations, not measurement results. 73, Sinisa YT1NT, VE3EA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Modeling Ground and losses
Earth resistance/voltage would not necessarily be exactly the same for each radial, depending upon the earth site.. If memory serves me correctly, think it was W7EL who found standing waves on some radials 73 Bruce-K1FZ This measurement yielded the current in a single wire. To obtain the current flowing in all the buried wires at distance, x, the measured value was multiplied by the number of wires. R. Fry _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling Ground and losses
Richard Fry r...@adams.net wrote: Quoting from page 771 of the BLE paper on ground systems: The current in the buried wires was measured in each case. That quote does not apply to Fig. 7, which is 10 pages earlier. This quote from p. 760 applies to Fig. 7: ...the following calculations are made on this basis. The current in the wires is shown... : Fig. 7 ... Fig. 8 ... Fig. 9 ... Fig. 10 ... 73, Sinisa _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling Ground and losses
Of interest here is that the benchmark Brown, Lewis and Epstein I.R.E paper on ground systems does not show such standing waves along buried radials (clip below). Of interest down here is surface-buried radials down here show definite standing waves in actual measurements, so it doesn't care what BL and E measured. What they measured in different dirt on a different frequency won't change how the radials acted here. This is the problem with radials and models. The dirt isn't the same and the radials are never the same effective depth all over the world. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling Ground and losses
Radials do have standing waves, and so the minimum impedance at the base will appear when the radial is somewhat less than 1/4 wave long. Of interest here is that the benchmark Brown, Lewis and Epstein I.R.E paper on ground systems does not show such standing waves along buried radials (clip below). The clip also shows that the r-f current flowing on the buried wires at and beyond 0.25 lambda (of their physical length in free space) are considerably less for 15 and 30 radials than for 113 radials. http://s20.postimg.org/oxj3qv59p/BL_E_Fig_7.jpg R. Fry _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling Ground and losses
Their Fig. 7 shows results of simplified (manual) calculations, not measurement results. Quoting from page 771 of the BLE paper on ground systems: The current in the buried wires was measured in each case. This was accomplished by placing a coil next to the ground wire at a point where the wire was exposed. The coil was resonated by means of a small shunt condenser. The voltage across this combination was de- termined with a vacuum tube voltmeter. The combination was cali- brated in the laboratory. Fig. 24 shows the procedure in question. This measurement yielded the current in a single wire. To obtain the current flowing in all the buried wires at distance, x, the measured value was multiplied by the number of wires. R. Fry _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling Ground and losses
Additional from the BLE paper on the subject of standing waves on buried radial wires... Figure 11 linked below is based on the r-f currents measured along the radial lengths shown in Figure 7. http://s20.postimg.org/k05j5r3al/BL_E_Fig_11.jpg R. Fry _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling Ground and losses
There is a bit of explanation and clarity in BLE regarding standing waves on radials that does not show up until page 781 and figure 42. ** Emphasis added. The current in the buried wires **for an antenna height of 88 degrees** and radials wires 135 feet long is shown in Fig. 42. We see that the current persists in 113 wires much further from the antenna than it does for a smaller number of wires Fig. 43 whows similar results for the same ground system and a **22-degree antenna.** Figure 42 clearly shows standing waves for 113 radials, the hint of standing waves for 60 and 30 radials, while figure 43 shows only the slightest hint of that. Height of the antenna is clearly involved in the production of standing waves. We also must remember these tests were done at 3 MHz, with an assumption that there were not any paradigm shifts going from the lower broadcast band to 3 Mhz. All of us are aware these days of many differences between low BC band and eighty meters, and indeed of differences between 160 and 80. . For all practical purposes, BLE was a series of tests run at 80 meters. Extrapolate to 160 with caution. 73, Guy On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Richard Fry r...@adams.net wrote: Additional from the BLE paper on the subject of standing waves on buried radial wires... Figure 11 linked below is based on the r-f currents measured along the radial lengths shown in Figure 7. http://s20.postimg.org/k05j5r3al/BL_E_Fig_11.jpg R. Fry _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling Ground and losses
On Wed,2/25/2015 5:27 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: Of interest down here is surface-buried radials down here show definite standing waves in actual measurements, so it doesn't care what BL and E measured. Not only that, but it defies logic that radials would NOT exhibit the same current and voltage distribution of any other conductor carrying RF current. The boundary condition is near zero at the end ( near because of capacitance at the end). Rudy Severns, N6LF, has explored this in his studies of radial systems. Rudy's work includes extensive modeling to understand and document what he was seeing in measurements of carefully constructed experimental systems. I recall seeing at least one study of current distribution in radial systems published in QST -- something like 20-30 years ago. I found it as a pdf on the ARRL website about 10 years ago. I remember that it documented exactly what Tom has observed -- that current varies along the radial and depending on the soil under the radial. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Brave New World
Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I just ordered a remoterig control box to allow my K3 to control remote stations. I'm not currently able to set up much of a station and so looking forward to being able to operate in more contests using remote stations. With two young kids my wife is less than thrilled at the idea of me being gone for a 48 hour multi so this is a great enhancement to the hobby. What I like best is that it keeps the spirit of building a competitive station but lets people share in it who would normally just not operate. Since I'm not a DXer I don't have an opinion on whether it should count for DXCC credit. 73, Matt NQ6N/9 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Dave Blaschke, w5un w...@wt.net wrote: This is just the beginning! Dave, W5UN On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station- logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Notice how ARRL is endorsing all of this. read that first paragraph, especially: The scattered K3TN team worked *via the Internet *through the station of Jack Hammett, K4VV. I thought our hobby was about radio, not internet. On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I can understand why people are upset about this. But the reality is that no matter how upset we decide to be about this sort of thing, it's simply going to happen more and more. There's some truth to the saying, Don't worry, be happy. :-) The rest of us can operate our stations the right way. End of psychology sermon. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
The contacts were not made via the internet, they were made using a radio controlled over the internet. I operate my home station every day using a computer in my office from 70 miles away over the internet. It's no different than sitting in front of the equipment. Glenn WB5TUF -Original Message- From: Dave Blaschke, w5un w...@wt.net Sent: Feb 25, 2015 3:26 PM To: Eddy Swynar deswy...@xplornet.ca, topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World Notice how ARRL is endorsing all of this. read that first paragraph, especially: The scattered K3TN team worked *via the Internet *through the station of Jack Hammett, K4VV. I thought our hobby was about radio, not internet. On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
This is just the beginning! Dave, W5UN On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Maybe NET Neutrality will take care of this for us. :-( -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mike Waters Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:37 PM To: topband Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World I can understand why people are upset about this. But the reality is that no matter how upset we decide to be about this sort of thing, it's simply going to happen more and more. There's some truth to the saying, Don't worry, be happy. :-) The rest of us can operate our stations the right way. End of psychology sermon. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Money talks, see full page 8 add in recent QST mags. K2UF -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dave Blaschke, w5un Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:26 PM To: Eddy Swynar; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World Notice how ARRL is endorsing all of this. read that first paragraph, especially: The scattered K3TN team worked *via the Internet *through the station of Jack Hammett, K4VV. I thought our hobby was about radio, not internet. On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-i n-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... ...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4299/9178 - Release Date: 02/25/15 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5736 / Virus Database: 4299/9172 - Release Date: 02/24/15 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Well the same thing is going on with the Olympics. Steroids are supposedly banned if you get caught. New ways to hid the use of steroids continues. Eventually the use of steroids will be accepted because the regulators fail. Same thing with ham radio. New ways to cheat are evolving, are being accepted by some and will eventually become the norm. I am not referring to someone who has a remote a few miles from his home. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- I can understand why people are upset about this. But the reality is that no matter how upset we decide to be about this sort of thing, it's simply going to happen more and more. There's some truth to the saying, Don't worry, be happy. :-) The rest of us can operate our stations the right way. End of psychology sermon. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Most of us are creatures of habit. I Didn't like the change over to SSB, New WARC bands, computer tuned Radios. It goes on and on. Wonder if the Spark transmitter guys wanted to keep the smell of Ozone when tubes came along ? hi ( ; )) We'll survive this some how. 73 Bruce-k1fz www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 16:41:01 -0500, James Wolf jbw...@comcast.net wrote: Maybe NET Neutrality will take care of this for us. :-( _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Here we go again with this remote discussion. It's like the movie Groundhog Day. Can we QRX this discussion, for, say, 6 months before rehashing the same tired arguments ? 73, Steve, N2IC On 02/25/2015 02:54 PM, Joe K2UF wrote: Money talks, see full page 8 add in recent QST mags. K2UF -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dave Blaschke, w5un Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:26 PM To: Eddy Swynar; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World Notice how ARRL is endorsing all of this. read that first paragraph, especially: The scattered K3TN team worked *via the Internet *through the station of Jack Hammett, K4VV. I thought our hobby was about radio, not internet. On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-i n-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... ...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4299/9178 - Release Date: 02/25/15 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5736 / Virus Database: 4299/9172 - Release Date: 02/24/15 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
It is mis leading to say there was no one in the shack implying that the station made the contacts without supervision. Each position was properly and legally remotely controlled. The station was properly identified by each control operator. The control operators did NOT claim they were transmitting from anywhere but the K4VV station location. Remote control does NOT suddenly make the station different. Its transmitter, receiver and antennas are all the same. The stations transmitters were all correctly identifying the station. It simply does NOT MATTER where the person is sitting. The remotely controlled station actually has some small dis advantages over a locally controlled station. There is an additional layer of complexity, and there is propagation delay through the network (Internet) that delivers the control commands the data being transmitted. There also is the dis advantage from the lack of spatial orientation an on site operator has. Controversy over remote control is silly. MIS USE of remote control is MIS USE, and is the fault of the person mis using the capability. It is NOT the fault of remote control. It is the same kind of issue as the 15 KW amplifier in the basement that is hidden from the station operating area. The mis use issue is showing up because it is now easier for someone to deliberately mis use the capability. Before remote control was commonly available, someone wanting to make use of a station in a different country had to either fly there, and illegally use his own call in a foreign country, or, simply persuade someone at the station to make the contact using his callsign, and not that of the station and country. Both acts are illegal and improper, and have absolutely nothing to do with the station itself, and how it is controlled. Blame MIS USE - or call it illegal use - of a stations capability. It REQUIRES the deliberate act of an operator. The STATION does not perform the illegal act, the operator does. There are many examples of illegal use of a station by a person sitting at the station. Those same acts carried out by remote control are no more and no less illegal. (bad English usage, but the point remains) Robin Critchell WA6CDR - Original Message - From: Dave Blaschke, w5un w...@wt.net To: Eddy Swynar deswy...@xplornet.ca; topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 13:13 Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World This is just the beginning! Dave, W5UN On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia... This too is progress...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things de-evolve, nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On Wed,2/25/2015 1:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... I STRONGLY disagree. Exactly how is this different from those same operators driving several hours (of flying) to someone's super-station, like W3LPL, K3LR, W8JI, NQ4I, N0NI, W0AIH, WB9Z, K9CT, W7RN, N6RO, VE3EJ, K1TTT, KH6LC, KL7RA, and hundreds of others around the world, to do a multi-multi? The vast majority of the EU stations we work in contests are club stations. Except for the guy who built the station, and maybe someone who helps to maintain it, they're all hired guns. As I see it, the internet simply saves those guys a lot of gas money. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Sounds like phone sex to menot my bag. You can hang up a picture of whatever partner you like and call them your significant other...just can't substitute for being there. Next big thing will be to drop a package station on Scarborough Reef and have a remote team operate it and call it a DXpedition and hand out DXCC credit for it Time to join AMSAT... Cecil K5DL Sent using recycled electrons. On Feb 25, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: On Wed,2/25/2015 1:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... I STRONGLY disagree. Exactly how is this different from those same operators driving several hours (of flying) to someone's super-station, like W3LPL, K3LR, W8JI, NQ4I, N0NI, W0AIH, WB9Z, K9CT, W7RN, N6RO, VE3EJ, K1TTT, KH6LC, KL7RA, and hundreds of others around the world, to do a multi-multi? The vast majority of the EU stations we work in contests are club stations. Except for the guy who built the station, and maybe someone who helps to maintain it, they're all hired guns. As I see it, the internet simply saves those guys a lot of gas money. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Hi Guys, Is the day very far off in the distant future when the physical human element won't even be needed at a radio station on the eve of a contest...? Just programme the event into the computer, hook it up to the rig...and then go off to bed. The next day you meander down to the shack, coffee in hand rubbing the sleep out of your eyes, to learn that in your absence, your station made some 5,000 QSOs, AND DXCC, twice over! Remember Dr. DX of the 1980's...? Shades of days yet to come---if , indeed, those days are not here already. At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur---on second thought, who cares? The dinosaurs ruled the earth for untold millions of years, to man's single million---just as insurance companies lawyers are spelling the demise of kids' playground toys and group get-togethers, computers will spell the end of the very essence that makes Ham radio fun. At least to dinosaurs like yours truly, anyway. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Bingo. Exactly. And there's one thing that no one has mentioned yet: A station in a contest, that's remotely-controlled over the internet, has the significant disadvantage of time delays. Oh, yes they do. I don't care how big and fast a pipe anyone buys. Those delay times are not only unpredictable, they vary from a fraction of a second to many seconds. Figure it out. Enough of this bickering. Can't we all just get along, and decide to have fun with our own stations? Much ado about nothing. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 4:40 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett w...@w0mu.com wrote: The internet is simply an extension of the mic cord and headphones. How does this affect you anyway? _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: *****SPAM***** Re: Brave New World
Eddy, Ham Radio is dead, extinct. It has been replaced with Internet Radio. I once held an amateur radio licence; it now belongs in a museum. Some how good things don't last forever. I have had a lot of fun when the hobby was amateur radio. I guess it is time to move on and find another fun hobby. And to those who enjoy internet radio; try and have some fun knowing you just killed amateur radio. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- Hi Guys, Is the day very far off in the distant future when the physical human element won't even be needed at a radio station on the eve of a contest...? Just programme the event into the computer, hook it up to the rig...and then go off to bed. The next day you meander down to the shack, coffee in hand rubbing the sleep out of your eyes, to learn that in your absence, your station made some 5,000 QSOs, AND DXCC, twice over! Remember Dr. DX of the 1980's...? Shades of days yet to come---if , indeed, those days are not here already. At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur---on second thought, who cares? The dinosaurs ruled the earth for untold millions of years, to man's single million---just as insurance companies lawyers are spelling the demise of kids' playground toys and group get-togethers, computers will spell the end of the very essence that makes Ham radio fun. At least to dinosaurs like yours truly, anyway. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Atlantic Basin Scoring
Jim: You certainly pick the interesting dragons( windmills) Don Quixote . Once upon a time when I was the editor of NCJ I had the temerity to suggest we should explore an alternative to the, then current scoring, to reduce the Atlantic Basin advantage. Got a lot of responses. The kindest ( and most perceptive ) suggested I should move my QTH if the scoring was an issue for me. I have reflected on that in later years and come to agree with that assessment. Simple rules seem to work best. There are some folks who do change jobs and venues with an eye toward a better Contest QTH. Most of the rest of us have made peace with 'life as it is' . I have to admit Jim, I am really envious of your 100 foot plus Redwoods available for dipole hanging. I don't think I will be moving to CA anytime soon, however. Good luck on your quest for the impossible dream and say Hi to Sancho Panza when next you see him. Best 73, Tod, K0TO Sent from my iPhone 6 On Feb 25, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: On Wed,2/25/2015 3:26 PM, john wrote: are actually physically there--they are not in my opinion , hired guns, that description is unnecessarily unkind and incorrect , in my opinion, they are operating radio(s) on site..on site being the key I appreciate the efforts of w3lpl's et al stations and their efforts... Other than you having an apparent issue with big gun stations and club , the (your), problem is I have no problem at all with it -- indeed, I have participated in several multi-multi and multi-two operations. It's a lot of fun. I'm simply pointing out that K4VV is no more and no less than another of those team stations. My own station is pretty decent, and can be set up for two operators in Multi-Single or Multi-Two, and I occasionally entertain guest operators. for the record I am about as far from being a big gun station as you could get.. I guess it is up to each of us to decide what is right and ethical , but for me, until I am slapped into a nursing home,,, Ill take the on site,(real radio) , every time...guess it is personal choices Over the last ten years or so, I've done a lot of research, and published a lot of it, about RFI, -- all the RF noise on the ham bands that makes life miserable for guys in most neighborhoods. 10dB over S9 noise is common in a lot of places. And for at least that long, I've been reading tales of woe from guys whose CCR deed restrictions prohibit them from putting up antennas on their own property! San Francisco is a city of more than a half million, yet there are virtually no HF ham stations within the city. Chicago, a city of more than 3 million, had only four guys (including me) active on HF when I moved from there in 2006, and our stations were quite modest. I think you, and a lot of others who have wailed and wrung your hands about this, have very closed minds. What, exactly, is your problem with those guys, and there are many thousands of them stuck in that situation, operating a station remotely? Should they be relegated to shack on a belt operation on the local repeater? What I DO strongly object to are contest scoring rules for virtually major DX contests that give a 20:1 advantage to the good old boys gathered around the Atlantic basin. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Really? Many remotes use K3's with one of the radios being another K3 or scaled back version of a K3. You still sit at the radio and turn the knobs. Remote radio has been around a lot longer than many think. It was only for the very well off to do it. The internet is simply an extension of the mic cord and headphones. How does this affect you anyway? Did K4VV bother you in the contest. If the article was never written you would have never known. I would love to build a contest station in the Caribbean and operate it from home and save the round trip air fare, if it were all legal between countries etc. What exactly did any remote operator do that was wrong? You na sayers sound like a bunch of old ninnies who find things to complain about. Remote radio opens up many doors to people that otherwise could not be involved with HF amateur radio. It keeps people on the air that want to move to townhouses or might have to move into assist living centers but want to stay on the air. Are these not great reason for remote radio or if you have a stroke and have to go to a nursing home you people would just rather the see guy go off the air.That guy might be you very soon. Think about it. Mike W0MU On 2/25/2015 3:24 PM, Cecil wrote: Sounds like phone sex to menot my bag. You can hang up a picture of whatever partner you like and call them your significant other...just can't substitute for being there. Next big thing will be to drop a package station on Scarborough Reef and have a remote team operate it and call it a DXpedition and hand out DXCC credit for it Time to join AMSAT... Cecil K5DL Sent using recycled electrons. On Feb 25, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: On Wed,2/25/2015 1:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... I STRONGLY disagree. Exactly how is this different from those same operators driving several hours (of flying) to someone's super-station, like W3LPL, K3LR, W8JI, NQ4I, N0NI, W0AIH, WB9Z, K9CT, W7RN, N6RO, VE3EJ, K1TTT, KH6LC, KL7RA, and hundreds of others around the world, to do a multi-multi? The vast majority of the EU stations we work in contests are club stations. Except for the guy who built the station, and maybe someone who helps to maintain it, they're all hired guns. As I see it, the internet simply saves those guys a lot of gas money. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
there will never be a level playing field. as for me,,,Ill simply turn the other cheek all the best for all 73 john w8wej On 2/26/2015 12:28 AM, Jim Brown wrote: On Wed,2/25/2015 3:26 PM, john wrote: are actually physically there--they are not in my opinion , hired guns, that description is unnecessarily unkind and incorrect , in my opinion, they are operating radio(s) on site..on site being the key I appreciate the efforts of w3lpl's et al stations and their efforts... Other than you having an apparent issue with big gun stations and club , the (your), problem is I have no problem at all with it -- indeed, I have participated in several multi-multi and multi-two operations. It's a lot of fun. I'm simply pointing out that K4VV is no more and no less than another of those team stations. My own station is pretty decent, and can be set up for two operators in Multi-Single or Multi-Two, and I occasionally entertain guest operators. for the record I am about as far from being a big gun station as you could get.. I guess it is up to each of us to decide what is right and ethical , but for me, until I am slapped into a nursing home,,, Ill take the on site,(real radio) , every time...guess it is personal choices Over the last ten years or so, I've done a lot of research, and published a lot of it, about RFI, -- all the RF noise on the ham bands that makes life miserable for guys in most neighborhoods. 10dB over S9 noise is common in a lot of places. And for at least that long, I've been reading tales of woe from guys whose CCR deed restrictions prohibit them from putting up antennas on their own property! San Francisco is a city of more than a half million, yet there are virtually no HF ham stations within the city. Chicago, a city of more than 3 million, had only four guys (including me) active on HF when I moved from there in 2006, and our stations were quite modest. I think you, and a lot of others who have wailed and wrung your hands about this, have very closed minds. What, exactly, is your problem with those guys, and there are many thousands of them stuck in that situation, operating a station remotely? Should they be relegated to shack on a belt operation on the local repeater? What I DO strongly object to are contest scoring rules for virtually major DX contests that give a 20:1 advantage to the good old boys gathered around the Atlantic basin. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling Ground and losses
Not only that, but it defies logic that radials would NOT exhibit the same current and voltage distribution of any other conductor carrying RF current. The boundary condition is near zero at the end ( near because of capacitance at the end). Rudy Severns, N6LF, has explored this in his studies of radial systems. Rudy's work includes extensive modeling to understand and document what he was seeing in measurements of carefully constructed experimental systems. There are only three ways a radial would not exhibit standing waves (waves that increase and decrease in level with distance): 1.) The radial is too short to have enough space for a part of the wavelength to stand. An example of this would be trying to measure the current difference along a 60-foot wire on 160 meters. It would just smoothly taper. 2.) The radial is terminated in the surge impedance of the radial. This would be like a transmission line terminated with the correct resistance. 3.) The ground sucks up the current at such a rate that there is not enough current left to increase. All the radials I have measured that are long enough to be over 1/4 wave electrical have shown standing waves. The current is less at the base than some distance out from the base, and it never seems to have anything noticeable to do with radiator height. I can take a 40M 1/4 wave vertical, surface bury 15-20 radials, and find long lengths (beyond 1/4 wave) that make base impedance go to 50 ohms or more, and the FS measures the same as other systems that have 35-38 ohm base impedance. Feed impedance doesn't even have to track the efficiency. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On Wed,2/25/2015 3:26 PM, john wrote: are actually physically there--they are not in my opinion , hired guns, that description is unnecessarily unkind and incorrect , in my opinion, they are operating radio(s) on site..on site being the key I appreciate the efforts of w3lpl's et al stations and their efforts... Other than you having an apparent issue with big gun stations and club , the (your), problem is I have no problem at all with it -- indeed, I have participated in several multi-multi and multi-two operations. It's a lot of fun. I'm simply pointing out that K4VV is no more and no less than another of those team stations. My own station is pretty decent, and can be set up for two operators in Multi-Single or Multi-Two, and I occasionally entertain guest operators. for the record I am about as far from being a big gun station as you could get.. I guess it is up to each of us to decide what is right and ethical , but for me, until I am slapped into a nursing home,,, Ill take the on site,(real radio) , every time...guess it is personal choices Over the last ten years or so, I've done a lot of research, and published a lot of it, about RFI, -- all the RF noise on the ham bands that makes life miserable for guys in most neighborhoods. 10dB over S9 noise is common in a lot of places. And for at least that long, I've been reading tales of woe from guys whose CCR deed restrictions prohibit them from putting up antennas on their own property! San Francisco is a city of more than a half million, yet there are virtually no HF ham stations within the city. Chicago, a city of more than 3 million, had only four guys (including me) active on HF when I moved from there in 2006, and our stations were quite modest. I think you, and a lot of others who have wailed and wrung your hands about this, have very closed minds. What, exactly, is your problem with those guys, and there are many thousands of them stuck in that situation, operating a station remotely? Should they be relegated to shack on a belt operation on the local repeater? What I DO strongly object to are contest scoring rules for virtually major DX contests that give a 20:1 advantage to the good old boys gathered around the Atlantic basin. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
It absolutely will, unless the remote guys can pay enough funds to the party in charge to get an exemption, they will be stifled and speeds of the net will decline, have to make it fair ya see. Maybe NET Neutrality will take care of this for us. :-( -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Mike Waters Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:37 PM To: topband Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World I can understand why people are upset about this. But the reality is that no matter how upset we decide to be about this sort of thing, it's simply going to happen more and more. There's some truth to the saying, Don't worry, be happy. :-) The rest of us can operate our stations the right way. End of psychology sermon. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband . _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
uh,,, they ,(the operators), are actually physically there--they are not in my opinion , hired guns, that description is unnecessarily unkind and incorrect , in my opinion, they are operating radio(s) on site..on site being the key I appreciate the efforts of w3lpl's et al stations and their efforts... Other than you having an apparent issue with big gun stations and club , the (your), problem is for the record I am about as far from being a big gun station as you could get.. I guess it is up to each of us to decide what is right and ethical , but for me, until I am slapped into a nursing home,,, Ill take the on site,(real radio) , every time...guess it is personal choices dx 73 john w8wej On 2/25/2015 10:10 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On Wed,2/25/2015 1:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence the ...joie de vivre! of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the perpetrators in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... I STRONGLY disagree. Exactly how is this different from those same operators driving several hours (of flying) to someone's super-station, like W3LPL, K3LR, W8JI, NQ4I, N0NI, W0AIH, WB9Z, K9CT, W7RN, N6RO, VE3EJ, K1TTT, KH6LC, KL7RA, and hundreds of others around the world, to do a multi-multi? The vast majority of the EU stations we work in contests are club stations. Except for the guy who built the station, and maybe someone who helps to maintain it, they're all hired guns. As I see it, the internet simply saves those guys a lot of gas money. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I can tell from reading the Against Messages in this thread that those who are against remote operation have never operated a remote setup. Somewhat like Glenn below .. except in my case it is 1200 miles between my summer home where my station is located and my Winter Home in Florida. I do have the ability to operate my own station remotely. The Latency they call it .. LAG TIME between sending something from the computer and the time my transmitter responds and the lag time when my receiver gets the incoming signal and I get it maybe a couple seconds later.. Did you notice that although that Remote Conest station had some really good operators that the SCORE was a bit over 1/3rd of K3LR's station? Yes we know Tim's station is better with antennas etc... but the good share of the difference is due to this time lag problem. In Conclusion NO remotely operated station like this is ever going to be truly competitive with a bunch of operators with their hand on the knob. And as Glenn and others have said ... it is still a Ham Radio Contact from A Ham Radio Station to another Ham Radio Station. This would be the same as some guy setting in his living room watching TV with his wife while also having a headset on that has wireless earphones and mic ... running some stations on 20M through his own station in the next room... except that would be much faster. Nealy No Latency. 73 John k9uwa The contacts were not made via the internet, they were made using a radio controlled over the internet. I operate my home station every day using a computer in my office from 70 miles away over the internet. It's no different than sitting in front of the equipment. Glenn WB5TUF John Goller, K9UWA Jean Goller, N9PXF Antique Radio Restorations k9...@arrl.net Visit our Web Site at: http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com 4836 Ranch Road Leo, IN 46765 USA 1-260-637-6426 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Point Shirley
During one of their weather reports this morning, the New England Cable News network (based in Massachusetts) showed some viewer photos of the record snow and ice around the area. One of the pics was Point Shirley in Winthrop, MA and in the center of the photo was the water tower where W1BB made so many historic 160 QSOs back in the day. The photo was almost an exact duplicate of the picture of Point Shirley in K1ZM's 160 book. It was like a little shot of Topband nostalgia to start my day. 73, Jack K2RS _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: *****SPAM***** Re: Brave New World
Doug, that's a bit excessive. You're talking about a death from a thousand cuts and this is the final one. I'm somewhat in agreement with RHR being not such a great idea but I'm not 100% that way: Someone mentioned Hams having to go to a retirement home and being able to stay on the air after they leave their QTH. I remember my Dad who was first licensed in 1937 and died last year, I did my damnedest to keep him on the air as long as I possibly could because he dearly loved his nightly group. There were zero places I could find where he could be in a Nursing home and have his radio and antenna. My dad was lucky to have someone help him to stay in his home till the end but if he would have been in a Nursing home using RHR, that would have saved me from ripping a muscle in my forearm where I had to catch him as he fell as there was nobody to help me. I'm a musician and haven't been able to overcome that damage in the last year. The idea of Hams in Nursing homes remaining on the air aside, I like to contest: In my mind I'm a damned good contender but in reality I'm not, I'm just another guy who enjoys making as many contacts as I can. This last ARRL contest I worked around 1/27th of all the people I have ever contacted since 1979, I scored 1,068,528 points (before they penalize me for busted calls whatnot). This was an awesome score to me, but nothing like these superstations with awesome Rx Tx antennas in RFI quiet locations on the tops of mountains get. So with the huge numbers these superstations generate, what care do I have about a RHR station making more points than me? I have zero chance of the getting more points than them. The only contestant I have is me, using my wire antennas. Truth is I'll never, ever be a win, place or show, the game is me against me. I'm not using RHR but it's not going to hurt me any and someday I will probably use it because I have no kid to take care of me at the end I'll be in a home somewhere. If I still have my wits, I'll still want to get on the air. my 2 centavos, Gary KA1J Eddy, Ham Radio is dead, extinct. It has been replaced with Internet Radio. I once held an amateur radio licence; it now belongs in a museum. Some how good things don't last forever. I have had a lot of fun when the hobby was amateur radio. I guess it is time to move on and find another fun hobby. And to those who enjoy internet radio; try and have some fun knowing you just killed amateur radio. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- Hi Guys, Is the day very far off in the distant future when the physical human element won't even be needed at a radio station on the eve of a contest...? Just programme the event into the computer, hook it up to the rig...and then go off to bed. The next day you meander down to the shack, coffee in hand rubbing the sleep out of your eyes, to learn that in your absence, your station made some 5,000 QSOs, AND DXCC, twice over! Remember Dr. DX of the 1980's...? Shades of days yet to come---if , indeed, those days are not here already. At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur---on second thought, who cares? The dinosaurs ruled the earth for untold millions of years, to man's single million---just as insurance companies lawyers are spelling the demise of kids' playground toys and group get-togethers, computers will spell the end of the very essence that makes Ham radio fun. At least to dinosaurs like yours truly, anyway. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling Ground and losses
Previously, from two different posters... ... it defies logic that radials would NOT exhibit the same current and voltage distribution of any other conductor carrying RF current. The ground sucks up the current at such a rate that there is not enough current left to increase. Quote from page 757 of the BLE paper: Where there are radial ground wires present, the earth consists of two components, part of which flows in the earth itself and the remainder of which flows in the buried wires. As the current flows in toward the antenna, it is continually added to by more displacement currents flowing into the earth. It is not necessarily true that the earth currents will increase because of this additional displacement current, since all the various components differ in phase. Note the last sentence in the quote above, in particular. The physical conditions that determine the r-f current distribution along buried radial wires used with a monopole are different than those for wires in free space. The current distribution along a buried radial wire is a function of the current amplitudes and phases present in the earth adjacent to the entire physical length of that radial wire. Those earth currents are produced by the EM fields radiated into the earth by the monopole, within a 1/2-wavelength radius of the base of the monopole. The current on elevated radial wires used as a counterpoise is produced mainly by a direct, metallic (low-loss) connection to the transmitter. Current distribution along such wires is based mostly on their electrical lengths, and the physical configuration of the counterpoise. R. Fry _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
