Re: Topband: Modeling "Ground" and losses
All As far as I can understand, wires / radials just under the surface of the ground are simply conductors embedded in a lossy dielectric (with an interface to air near it), similar to carbon filled plastic or other such material. If the loss and the dielectric constant is low, the wire acts more like free space antenna conductor with standing waves made possible by actually having energy that can be reflected back from the open end. If the loss is high, nothing remains to form a standing wave as the energy in the wire dissipates such that only (mostly) a forward wave is present and no standing wave can be observed. The reason why this might be difficult to understand is that there are some three factors can be different: The dielectric constant, the conductivity and the spatial variations of these both in depth and along the surface of the ground and then the geometry of the multiple wires in this medium and the corresponding coupling(s) between the wires. The detailed predictions for current profile would seem most beneficial if a symmetric field very large number of very long radials is not possible for space or cost reasons. As I understand, the primary loss mechanism for ground mounted vertical systems is EM field penetrating the lossy material below. To lower this loss, one needs to prevent this ground penetration. Building a "shield", a large, dense radial field is a way to do this. However, this doesn't change the fact that loss associated with one radial wire changes with current and current profile on it! I guess this is at the core of the debate here. I find it remarkable that we have now free tools to solve EM-problems that took computing center size efforts when I got started with this hobby at late 70's. MarkkuOH2RA/OG2A/WW1C _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: ham radio- NOT
I really don't understand the debate. The universe moves on and that includes ham radio. We can't rewind the clock - even if we could although I just bought a SX-101 so I could get the old feeling I had as a kid when I look at it. There is something in ham radio for about every possible technical or competitive interest. The remote station thing appeals to the younger guys who may not be in the hobby otherwise. And for those who live in the tied-in-regulations neighborhoods - who may be inactive otherwise. But I moved to the country so I could build my own stuff, try my ideas out and see how good I could make things from my hands. Others take different paths than I did. Good for them. We are not personally responsible for the choices or preferences of any other ham than ourselves. Participate in the hobby as you like, and focus on the areas that you find interesting. And have some fun. 73/jeff/ac0c www.ac0c.com alpha-charlie-zero-charlie -Original Message- From: Tom W8JI Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 9:19 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: ham radio- NOT This is a good example of something to consider: i am considering selling my station and renting one for the next DXpedition or contest. i can easily be the big gun. probably win the 160 meter contest from the W8JI rent a station. maybe i will rent a huge station on the east coast and operate from my kitchen. beat the pants off you guys. My site on RHR is 800-1000 watts on a single rotating tower for HF, with access to a 160 meter omni vertical and no receiving antennas (or one fixed Beverage that cannot be switched) on 160. The 80 meter antenna was an Inverted Vee dipole at 50-60 feet. It was an IAC double bazooka or coaxial dipole antenna drooped from a tower ring at 60 feet apex height. I finally swapped the 80 antenna over to a collinear at 140-160 feet a few weeks ago. So now 80 meters is a collinear fed through about 700 feet of coax, with about 300 feet of it RG6 CATV cable. The 40 meter antenna is stacked 3 element Yagis. The other bands are 5 element Yagi's at about 1-1/2 wavelengths, except for ten and six. Ten is six elements at maybe 45 feet (not sure), and six is two five element antennas fed through 250 feet of LMR400. While that is a very nice station for someone without an outside antenna, and super for someone with no way to get on the air, I do not agree with anyone claiming this is a "super station" with an unreasonable or grossly unfair advantage. The primary use of my station, thus far, has been for people who do not have their own radios and still want to stay on the air. ***My*** compensation for allowing that access covers the Internet data charges and electricity, with a little left over for infrastructure and maintenance. For example, I bought a K3 for that station (mostly because I wanted a spare anyway), and I donate an ALS1306 so I can play with getting it to run on remote. My policy is this...I care less what someone else charges as long as it is controlled, and is not over used. I do not want my stuff wearing out. I'm getting too old to climb. For me, playing with the wiring and interfaces is very educational. After a long discussion about remote interfaces with a VE1 and with long time Ham friend of mine (from DX60 days), I actually looked for a way to get activity via remote. I've never worked on a remote system before, although in the 1970's I had an up converter and down converter on a 2 GHz microwave link I built (from scratch) that translated receive signals across a one-two mile path. That system taught me about oscillators, multipliers, and weird things like rat race mixers. What I am enjoying is building interface equipment and seeing how this stuff works, what breaks, and I really don't care if someone else uses it or makes money reselling it as long as it is never becomes a PITA to me. I understand people like Larry want to complain about my site, and some think I've personally hastened the end of Ham radio, but it is actually listed as a beta site. I had a choice of experimenting with it in any one of a few free networks, but those networks (that no one here complains about) have virtually no supervision. I didn't think that was a good idea for anyone. I do regret allowing use of my 160 omni vertical and my rotating tower with 800-1000 watts has completely destroyed people's lives, but I enjoy learning some neat things about station interfacing. I especially enjoy letting people who have no station, or who have very restricted antennas, get on the air with (what I consider) modest power and fairly good outside antennas. I also do not think it is fair, and I do not think it is rational, logical, or reasonable, for anyone to grossly exaggerate or just make things up. I can't understand what motivates people to do things like that, so I thought I'd set the record straight. If someone thinks 800-1000 watts to a single tower system (and a s
Re: Topband: ham radio- NOT
This is a good example of something to consider: > i am considering selling my station and renting one for the next DXpedition or contest. i can easily be the big gun. probably win the 160 meter contest from the W8JI rent a station. maybe i will rent a huge station on the east coast and operate from my kitchen. beat the pants off you guys. My site on RHR is 800-1000 watts on a single rotating tower for HF, with access to a 160 meter omni vertical and no receiving antennas (or one fixed Beverage that cannot be switched) on 160. The 80 meter antenna was an Inverted Vee dipole at 50-60 feet. It was an IAC double bazooka or coaxial dipole antenna drooped from a tower ring at 60 feet apex height. I finally swapped the 80 antenna over to a collinear at 140-160 feet a few weeks ago. So now 80 meters is a collinear fed through about 700 feet of coax, with about 300 feet of it RG6 CATV cable. The 40 meter antenna is stacked 3 element Yagis. The other bands are 5 element Yagi's at about 1-1/2 wavelengths, except for ten and six. Ten is six elements at maybe 45 feet (not sure), and six is two five element antennas fed through 250 feet of LMR400. While that is a very nice station for someone without an outside antenna, and super for someone with no way to get on the air, I do not agree with anyone claiming this is a "super station" with an unreasonable or grossly unfair advantage. The primary use of my station, thus far, has been for people who do not have their own radios and still want to stay on the air. ***My*** compensation for allowing that access covers the Internet data charges and electricity, with a little left over for infrastructure and maintenance. For example, I bought a K3 for that station (mostly because I wanted a spare anyway), and I donate an ALS1306 so I can play with getting it to run on remote. My policy is this...I care less what someone else charges as long as it is controlled, and is not over used. I do not want my stuff wearing out. I'm getting too old to climb. For me, playing with the wiring and interfaces is very educational. After a long discussion about remote interfaces with a VE1 and with long time Ham friend of mine (from DX60 days), I actually looked for a way to get activity via remote. I've never worked on a remote system before, although in the 1970's I had an up converter and down converter on a 2 GHz microwave link I built (from scratch) that translated receive signals across a one-two mile path. That system taught me about oscillators, multipliers, and weird things like rat race mixers. What I am enjoying is building interface equipment and seeing how this stuff works, what breaks, and I really don't care if someone else uses it or makes money reselling it as long as it is never becomes a PITA to me. I understand people like Larry want to complain about my site, and some think I've personally hastened the end of Ham radio, but it is actually listed as a beta site. I had a choice of experimenting with it in any one of a few free networks, but those networks (that no one here complains about) have virtually no supervision. I didn't think that was a good idea for anyone. I do regret allowing use of my 160 omni vertical and my rotating tower with 800-1000 watts has completely destroyed people's lives, but I enjoy learning some neat things about station interfacing. I especially enjoy letting people who have no station, or who have very restricted antennas, get on the air with (what I consider) modest power and fairly good outside antennas. I also do not think it is fair, and I do not think it is rational, logical, or reasonable, for anyone to grossly exaggerate or just make things up. I can't understand what motivates people to do things like that, so I thought I'd set the record straight. If someone thinks 800-1000 watts to a single tower system (and a single 160 and 80 antenna), with controlled access is going to completely ruin life, or wants to give up their gear and use my station, the problem really isn't anything I can help with. I am going to enjoy working on things and learning thing, whether anyone else thinks I should be allowed to enjoy my aspect of the hobby or not. I'm not going to let someone else bully me out of the hobby. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: BOGs, Snakes and snowpack
True the lower velocity factor does bring the frequency down lower with snow & leaves. In my case found that 215 feet may be best in the dry month in summer, 200 feet is best on 160 meters year around. I can get 3 S points front to back on my two wire reversible BOG under deep snow, but it is considerably more F/B spring and fall. In the summer it is usually my quietest antenna for working Europe at their sunrise. There is 160 meter DX all seasons if anyone wants to go after it. Remember when you work Africa, Australia, New Zealand, & South America in winter, it is their Summer. Many have a tendency to go too long on the BOG antenna wire 73 Bruce-K1FZ www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 19:58:45 -0500, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Not based on my experience with BOGs and LOGs under significant snow, or too many seasons of falling leaves, or both. One thing that happens is whatever original BOG tuning, setting up good f/b, done with nothing on top of it, gets really skewed as the velocity factor goes lower and lower, under more frozen water, leaves, whatever. BOGs deliver a lot less signal than regular beverages, and most often need an amplifier or a good preamp in the rig to bring the signal up to useful levels. 73, Guy. On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Mike Waters wrote: > Hello Guy, > > I understand that the dielectric constant of snow is far higher than air. > But wouldn't some length of a BOG covered with snow at least hear better > than the mag and wire loop that he currently has? > > 73, Mike > www.w0btu.com > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV > wrote: > >> The short answer is that a foot of snow on top of it will affect it >> terribly. The long answer is gawd-awful. Don't ask any more if you don't >> want to know. >> >> 73, Guy >> >> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 6:02 PM, K2RS wrote: >> >> > When spring finally arrives, I'd like to try a BOG and/or a Snake >> receive >> > antenna. I live on a half-acre suburban lot and these antennas are >> doable. >> > >> > But I have a question about them. Does a substantial snowpack -- let's >> say >> > a foot or more -- have an effect on the performace of on-the-ground >> receive >> > antennas like BOGs and Snakes? For the past four winters, we have had at >> > least 12" of snow on the ground from December until March. A couple of >> > years we've had between three and four feet of snowpack throughout the >> > winter. >> > >> > The BOG and Snake would be in addition to off-the-ground antennas, such >> as >> > wire loops and magnetic loops, so I would not be relying on them as my >> only >> > receive antenna. >> > > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: ham radio- NOT
Larry, Look at the bright side. Maybe on your next DXpedition, you can work yourself remotely from your home station and get a new country ! Jim - KR9U -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Larry via Topband Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 6:08 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: ham radio- NOT it's sad, very sad about the changes to ham radio. i don't even believe it can be called that any longer. perhaps "internet radio" or "remote radio" can be best described as the present hobby. gone are the days that we "hams" were considered as a public service. gone are the days of experimentation, building your own antennas which required tuning and pruning. making your own receiver or transmitter is a concept unknown to the present generation. remember Gus Browning? he was the guy who risked his life to take his suitcase radio to remote places in the world just so the "chosen few" could have a new country. remember the first expedition to Mellish Reef? the guys almost lost their lives in a broken down boat to give the masses a new one. i was there! no ice breakers and helicopters for us. lets all see who can work the new country on the most band/modes possible. how about the hams who were responsible for new radio innovations? Art Collins for one. many others. i am considering selling my station and renting one for the next DXpedition or contest. i can easily be the big gun. probably win the 160 meter contest from the W8JI rent a station. maybe i will rent a huge station on the east coast and operate from my kitchen. beat the pants off you guys. what about the little peanut. the young kid who has little money and cant afford the finer toys of ham radio. used to be an equal in the hobby to kings, generals, and high ranking politicians. not to mention other famous personalities. please find a new name for our hobby. it's not ham radio any longer. yes i can understand the need for remote stations, no CW, buy an antenna that tunes its self, use an expensive radio, rent a station and all of the new internet assisted utilities. if that is your interest please use it. just not for me. guess that i have been lucky to see this wonderful hobby in its glory days. 73, larry n7dd/60 (60 wonderful years of "ham radio") _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: ham radio- NOT
When you guys really get tired of the internet radio can I have your stuff? I have a big garage. I will make good use of it since you won't be turning on your rigs anymore. Mike W0MU On 2/26/2015 6:12 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On Thu,2/26/2015 3:07 PM, Larry via Topband wrote: remember Gus Browning? he was the guy who risked his life to take his suitcase radio to remote places in the world just so the "chosen few" could have a new country. remember the first expedition to Mellish Reef? the guys almost lost their lives in a broken down boat to give the masses a new one. i was there! no ice breakers and helicopters for us. lets all see who can work the new country on the most band/modes possible. Yeah, those guys who hired a copter to drop them onto K1N were pansies. I sure hope no one here bothered to work those anti-hams. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: ham radio- NOT
On Thu,2/26/2015 3:07 PM, Larry via Topband wrote: remember Gus Browning? he was the guy who risked his life to take his suitcase radio to remote places in the world just so the "chosen few" could have a new country. remember the first expedition to Mellish Reef? the guys almost lost their lives in a broken down boat to give the masses a new one. i was there! no ice breakers and helicopters for us. lets all see who can work the new country on the most band/modes possible. Yeah, those guys who hired a copter to drop them onto K1N were pansies. I sure hope no one here bothered to work those anti-hams. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Rules vs. Ethics (was Brave New World)
Good for you Larry to post this. It is interesting how some folks come up with all sorts of excuses to justify their unethical/immoral thoughts and behavior. The ARRL by fully putting the onus on the operator has abdicated the leadership role in ethical behavior, which to me is the same as condoning unethical behavior. Doug -Original Message- Jim stated as much in the note to which you are replying. What is in play here is the difference between laws/rules and ethics. Just because something is "legal" does not make it ethical. Adultery is not a crime in 29 states of the United States or most of the industrialized world. Is it therefore ethical? Is it ethical to click between remotes on the east and west coast because DXCC rules permit it? Throwing their hands up, the League is leaving the answer to the last question up to the individual operator. Why, if such operations are so ethically pure would one commercial remote business advertise "completely anonymous operation"? The very nature of the wording suggests their service is the ham radio version of the No-Tell Motel. With regards to the "how I got my award shouldn't matter to anyone else", I'd argue that the operator on the "other end" of an unethical contact can be affected. There's a fair chance that he is pursuing an award as well. An operator in EU pursuing WAS (or VUCC on 6m) may work a W7 who is using a remote -- commercial or otherwise -- and does not indicate the location of the actual transmitter. The EU op goes away thinking he worked Oregon. Lo and behold the LoTW match or paper card shows up and "confirms" he did. There are a couple of west coast stations who routinely use east coast remotes to work EU on 6m and use their home state and grid square in the exchange. A savvy op on the "other end" can often tell if the exchange is legit, but there are strange spotlight openings on that band, just as there are on Topband. These ethical lapses are not entirely victimless. Larry K5RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: BOGs, Snakes and snowpack
Not based on my experience with BOGs and LOGs under significant snow, or too many seasons of falling leaves, or both. One thing that happens is whatever original BOG tuning, setting up good f/b, done with nothing on top of it, gets really skewed as the velocity factor goes lower and lower, under more frozen water, leaves, whatever. BOGs deliver a lot less signal than regular beverages, and most often need an amplifier or a good preamp in the rig to bring the signal up to useful levels. 73, Guy. On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Mike Waters wrote: > Hello Guy, > > I understand that the dielectric constant of snow is far higher than air. > But wouldn't some length of a BOG covered with snow at least hear better > than the mag and wire loop that he currently has? > > 73, Mike > www.w0btu.com > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV > wrote: > >> The short answer is that a foot of snow on top of it will affect it >> terribly. The long answer is gawd-awful. Don't ask any more if you don't >> want to know. >> >> 73, Guy >> >> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 6:02 PM, K2RS wrote: >> >> > When spring finally arrives, I'd like to try a BOG and/or a Snake >> receive >> > antenna. I live on a half-acre suburban lot and these antennas are >> doable. >> > >> > But I have a question about them. Does a substantial snowpack -- let's >> say >> > a foot or more -- have an effect on the performace of on-the-ground >> receive >> > antennas like BOGs and Snakes? For the past four winters, we have had at >> > least 12" of snow on the ground from December until March. A couple of >> > years we've had between three and four feet of snowpack throughout the >> > winter. >> > >> > The BOG and Snake would be in addition to off-the-ground antennas, such >> as >> > wire loops and magnetic loops, so I would not be relying on them as my >> only >> > receive antenna. >> > > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: ham radio- NOT
The last trip from Navassa in 1969 from the rope ladder to the supply boat via a small wooden dingy, the dinghy broke apart and sank. The trips from Jamaica to and from were horrific with the high seas and the nauseating and constant smell of diesel fuel from the exhaust. Prior to this there were some DX-peditions to very rare rock entities from a hotel room in a nearby country, from British Columbia so the path appeared to be from China, and from the comfort of a sailboat tied up to the pier in various Caribbean Islands. The stories of these exploits still circulate around at Visalia and Dayton. Herb, KV4FZ On 2/26/2015 7:24 PM, Dave Blaschke, w5un wrote: Larry, I remember it well, and worked you guys there. Those were the glory days. Dave, W5UN remember Gus Browning? he was the guy who risked his life to take his suitcase radio to remote places in the world just so the "chosen few" could have a new country. remember the first expedition to Mellish Reef? the guys almost lost their lives in a broken down boat to give the masses a new one. i was there! no ice breakers and helicopters for us. 73, Larry n7dd/60 (60 wonderful years of "ham radio") _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: BOGs, Snakes and snowpack
Hello Guy, I understand that the dielectric constant of snow is far higher than air. But wouldn't some length of a BOG covered with snow at least hear better than the mag and wire loop that he currently has? 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: > The short answer is that a foot of snow on top of it will affect it > terribly. The long answer is gawd-awful. Don't ask any more if you don't > want to know. > > 73, Guy > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 6:02 PM, K2RS wrote: > > > When spring finally arrives, I'd like to try a BOG and/or a Snake receive > > antenna. I live on a half-acre suburban lot and these antennas are > doable. > > > > But I have a question about them. Does a substantial snowpack -- let's > say > > a foot or more -- have an effect on the performace of on-the-ground > receive > > antennas like BOGs and Snakes? For the past four winters, we have had at > > least 12" of snow on the ground from December until March. A couple of > > years we've had between three and four feet of snowpack throughout the > > winter. > > > > The BOG and Snake would be in addition to off-the-ground antennas, such > as > > wire loops and magnetic loops, so I would not be relying on them as my > only > > receive antenna. > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: The VY2ZM Lowband and Contest Station is FOR SALE
Hi Guys Yes - you read the title correctlyit is time to move on. *SERIOUS INQUIRIES ONLY please to k...@aol.com Overview at QRZ.com - see VY2ZM Photos and Aerial Video at http://www.vy2zm.com Details will be be provided via email to serious inquiries only. Thanks for reading. 73 JEFF VY2ZM/K1ZM Email: k...@aol.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: BOGs, Snakes and snowpack
The short answer is that a foot of snow on top of it will affect it terribly. The long answer is gawd-awful. Don't ask any more if you don't want to know. 73, Guy On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 6:02 PM, K2RS wrote: > When spring finally arrives, I'd like to try a BOG and/or a Snake receive > antenna. I live on a half-acre suburban lot and these antennas are doable. > > But I have a question about them. Does a substantial snowpack -- let's say > a foot or more -- have an effect on the performace of on-the-ground receive > antennas like BOGs and Snakes? For the past four winters, we have had at > least 12" of snow on the ground from December until March. A couple of > years we've had between three and four feet of snowpack throughout the > winter. > > The BOG and Snake would be in addition to off-the-ground antennas, such as > wire loops and magnetic loops, so I would not be relying on them as my only > receive antenna. > > Any info would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks. > > 73, > > Jack K2RS > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: ham radio- NOT
Larry, I remember it well, and worked you guys there. Those were the glory days. Dave, W5UN remember Gus Browning? he was the guy who risked his life to take his suitcase radio to remote places in the world just so the "chosen few" could have a new country. remember the first expedition to Mellish Reef? the guys almost lost their lives in a broken down boat to give the masses a new one. i was there! no ice breakers and helicopters for us. 73, Larry n7dd/60 (60 wonderful years of "ham radio") _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: ham radio- NOT
it's sad, very sad about the changes to ham radio. i don't even believe it can be called that any longer. perhaps "internet radio" or "remote radio" can be best described as the present hobby. gone are the days that we "hams" were considered as a public service. gone are the days of experimentation, building your own antennas which required tuning and pruning. making your own receiver or transmitter is a concept unknown to the present generation. remember Gus Browning? he was the guy who risked his life to take his suitcase radio to remote places in the world just so the "chosen few" could have a new country. remember the first expedition to Mellish Reef? the guys almost lost their lives in a broken down boat to give the masses a new one. i was there! no ice breakers and helicopters for us. lets all see who can work the new country on the most band/modes possible. how about the hams who were responsible for new radio innovations? Art Collins for one. many others. i am considering selling my station and renting one for the next DXpedition or contest. i can easily be the big gun. probably win the 160 meter contest from the W8JI rent a station. maybe i will rent a huge station on the east coast and operate from my kitchen. beat the pants off you guys. what about the little peanut. the young kid who has little money and cant afford the finer toys of ham radio. used to be an equal in the hobby to kings, generals, and high ranking politicians. not to mention other famous personalities. please find a new name for our hobby. it's not ham radio any longer. yes i can understand the need for remote stations, no CW, buy an antenna that tunes its self, use an expensive radio, rent a station and all of the new internet assisted utilities. if that is your interest please use it. just not for me. guess that i have been lucky to see this wonderful hobby in its glory days. 73, larry n7dd/60 (60 wonderful years of "ham radio") _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: BOGs, Snakes and snowpack
When spring finally arrives, I'd like to try a BOG and/or a Snake receive antenna. I live on a half-acre suburban lot and these antennas are doable. But I have a question about them. Does a substantial snowpack -- let's say a foot or more -- have an effect on the performace of on-the-ground receive antennas like BOGs and Snakes? For the past four winters, we have had at least 12" of snow on the ground from December until March. A couple of years we've had between three and four feet of snowpack throughout the winter. The BOG and Snake would be in addition to off-the-ground antennas, such as wire loops and magnetic loops, so I would not be relying on them as my only receive antenna. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. 73, Jack K2RS _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Rules vs. Ethics (was Brave New World)
> I am still waiting for a real case scenario where remote radio has harmed or damaged someone, somehow I guess that depends on how you define "harmed". If you are expecting manslaughter, I doubt you'll find an example of that. I cited an example of how this is not victimless in my original note. > You are confusing ethical and moral No confusion on my part. Spend a little time on the web with this topic. I spent the last four years of my career in the ethics and compliance arena for a large international company. I'm pretty familiar with the subject. Once again "condoned by the ARRL" is not the same as "ethical". The League even takes great pains in their announcement of the changes to mention ethical operation with regards *specifically to remotes*: "Issues concerning remotely controlled operating and DXCC are best dealt with by each individual carefully considering the ethical limits that he/she will accept for his/her DXCC and other operating awards". - Larry K5RK -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of W0MU Mike Fatchett Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 4:03 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Rules vs. Ethics (was Brave New World) I am still waiting for a real case scenario where remote radio has harmed or damaged someone, somehow You are confusing ethical and moral. There is nothing unethical either. It is condoned by the ARRL. It is not how it used to be done. So what? Everything evolves and changes. Unethical is using more power than legally allowed. Using multiple operators and claiming single op. Using remote receivers, claiming to be operating from a country you are not in, rubber clocking, using packet when you shouldn't and on and on and on. We don't we get on the people that we know for fact use excessive power? Wink wink. Just because you or I believe something might be unethical or immoral does not make it so. We don't have to like the changes. Why don't we just say that and leave off all the bs associated with it? The ARRL is in the business of selling awards. This lets more people work toward their awards. It does not affect your DXCC or award one way or another. Mike W0MU On 2/26/2015 2:45 PM, Larry Burke wrote: > > >> Except it is not an ABUSE of the rules. People feel that it is an >> abuse > but it is fully sanctioned by the ARRL. > > > > Jim stated as much in the note to which you are replying. > > > > What is in play here is the difference between laws/rules and ethics. > Just because something is "legal" does not make it ethical. Adultery > is not a crime in 29 states of the United States or most of the industrialized world. > Is it therefore ethical? Is it ethical to click between remotes on the > east and west coast because DXCC rules permit it? Throwing their hands > up, the League is leaving the answer to the last question up to the > individual operator. Why, if such operations are so ethically pure > would one commercial remote business advertise "completely anonymous > operation"? The very nature of the wording suggests their service is > the ham radio version of the No-Tell Motel. > > > > With regards to the "how I got my award shouldn't matter to anyone > else", I'd argue that the operator on the "other end" of an unethical > contact can be affected. There's a fair chance that he is pursuing an > award as well. An operator in EU pursuing WAS (or VUCC on 6m) may work > a W7 who is using a remote -- commercial or otherwise -- and does not > indicate the location of the actual transmitter. The EU op goes away > thinking he worked Oregon. Lo and behold the LoTW match or paper card shows up and "confirms" he did. > There are a couple of west coast stations who routinely use east coast > remotes to work EU on 6m and use their home state and grid square in > the exchange. A savvy op on the "other end" can often tell if the > exchange is legit, but there are strange spotlight openings on that > band, just as there are on Topband. These ethical lapses are not entirely victimless. > > > > > > Larry K5RK > > > > > > > > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Rules vs. Ethics (was Brave New World)
I am still waiting for a real case scenario where remote radio has harmed or damaged someone, somehow You are confusing ethical and moral. There is nothing unethical either. It is condoned by the ARRL. It is not how it used to be done. So what? Everything evolves and changes. Unethical is using more power than legally allowed. Using multiple operators and claiming single op. Using remote receivers, claiming to be operating from a country you are not in, rubber clocking, using packet when you shouldn't and on and on and on. We don't we get on the people that we know for fact use excessive power? Wink wink. Just because you or I believe something might be unethical or immoral does not make it so. We don't have to like the changes. Why don't we just say that and leave off all the bs associated with it? The ARRL is in the business of selling awards. This lets more people work toward their awards. It does not affect your DXCC or award one way or another. Mike W0MU On 2/26/2015 2:45 PM, Larry Burke wrote: Except it is not an ABUSE of the rules. People feel that it is an abuse but it is fully sanctioned by the ARRL. Jim stated as much in the note to which you are replying. What is in play here is the difference between laws/rules and ethics. Just because something is "legal" does not make it ethical. Adultery is not a crime in 29 states of the United States or most of the industrialized world. Is it therefore ethical? Is it ethical to click between remotes on the east and west coast because DXCC rules permit it? Throwing their hands up, the League is leaving the answer to the last question up to the individual operator. Why, if such operations are so ethically pure would one commercial remote business advertise "completely anonymous operation"? The very nature of the wording suggests their service is the ham radio version of the No-Tell Motel. With regards to the "how I got my award shouldn't matter to anyone else", I'd argue that the operator on the "other end" of an unethical contact can be affected. There's a fair chance that he is pursuing an award as well. An operator in EU pursuing WAS (or VUCC on 6m) may work a W7 who is using a remote -- commercial or otherwise -- and does not indicate the location of the actual transmitter. The EU op goes away thinking he worked Oregon. Lo and behold the LoTW match or paper card shows up and "confirms" he did. There are a couple of west coast stations who routinely use east coast remotes to work EU on 6m and use their home state and grid square in the exchange. A savvy op on the "other end" can often tell if the exchange is legit, but there are strange spotlight openings on that band, just as there are on Topband. These ethical lapses are not entirely victimless. Larry K5RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Rules vs. Ethics (was Brave New World)
> Except it is not an ABUSE of the rules. People feel that it is an abuse but it is fully sanctioned by the ARRL. Jim stated as much in the note to which you are replying. What is in play here is the difference between laws/rules and ethics. Just because something is "legal" does not make it ethical. Adultery is not a crime in 29 states of the United States or most of the industrialized world. Is it therefore ethical? Is it ethical to click between remotes on the east and west coast because DXCC rules permit it? Throwing their hands up, the League is leaving the answer to the last question up to the individual operator. Why, if such operations are so ethically pure would one commercial remote business advertise "completely anonymous operation"? The very nature of the wording suggests their service is the ham radio version of the No-Tell Motel. With regards to the "how I got my award shouldn't matter to anyone else", I'd argue that the operator on the "other end" of an unethical contact can be affected. There's a fair chance that he is pursuing an award as well. An operator in EU pursuing WAS (or VUCC on 6m) may work a W7 who is using a remote -- commercial or otherwise -- and does not indicate the location of the actual transmitter. The EU op goes away thinking he worked Oregon. Lo and behold the LoTW match or paper card shows up and "confirms" he did. There are a couple of west coast stations who routinely use east coast remotes to work EU on 6m and use their home state and grid square in the exchange. A savvy op on the "other end" can often tell if the exchange is legit, but there are strange spotlight openings on that band, just as there are on Topband. These ethical lapses are not entirely victimless. Larry K5RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On second thought, I retract my original objection; K4VV not being a RHR for money deal. Dave On 2/26/2015 6:47 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Well, I *don't* understand why people are upset about this. The K4VV crowd operated a station in Virginia that had all it's antennas and all the RX and all the TX on one local property. They reported their logs as VA, USA. That hardly seems a stretch of rules. The rules don't say anything about all operators eating a meal on the property during the contest to qualify. There are no biblical instructions about remote operating. No words from God. Just the rules put down by the contest organizers. The organizers get to interpret their own rules any way they want. Don't like the rules, then vote with your feet. Enough feet leave, they'll change the rules. But some of you are complaining about the most popular contests. Hardly any resounding protest exit going on there. So just what does a "right way" statement criticizing the contest organizers of a popular contest mean? Might as well say it's unfair to drive on the left side of the road while in Britain. The only possible cheating at K4VV would be that the remote operators used RX that were not at the K4VV site. But if you think about it, the RX with the antennas at K4VV are most likely far better than what the ops had at home. It certainly would be so for me. I would not bother to substitute anything at my site for the antennas and RX at K4VV. Good stations work out all the stuff I could hear at my station in half of the first day. Everybody works them. Working them is no advantage. The winners are made from the stations that work the Q's and mults I can't hear at all at my home station. People have done remote mountain stations for decades, along with legally using them in contests. They used UHF links or telephone lines and it was difficult, expensive. Ready-made equipment for those purposes was not available. Now the internet and galloping progress in circuitry make such schemes available inexpensively. Others will and have posted about people in retirement homes being able to continue their hobby remotely, vastly improving late-year quality of life for long-time hams. You gonna say fine, but you don't get to operate in contests? Come on. Others are complaining that remote stations in good places ruin competition. Really? When was the last time you competed with K3LR, or W3LPL? If anything, a station that can be staffed with anyone with internet access will tend to increase competition for LR and LPL. Travel in winter not needed, room and board for a mob not needed, taking Friday off for travel not needed, etc, etc., will tend to increase on-the-air band-hours in contests. Let's hear a complaint from someone who has a few first place finishes, who thinks "cheaters" doing remote operating are ruining it for them. But you won't, because they will tell you that the number one factor in their wins was the team's operating acumen (that 27 dB between the ears), butt in chair, and preparation of station ahead of time. I don't hear Tim or Frank D. complaining. Those folks and their operating crowd turn in top scores from anywhere they operate. Therefore, using statistical logic, their main advantage must be in something they carry around with them everywhere, like something in their head. There have been and always will be cheaters who want the acclaim of high scores but who don't want to do the work to make it happen according to the contest organizer's rules. Loading the entire 27 dB between the ears takes WORK, and cheaters hate work. Remote or no remote will make zero difference in that. Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. If not by remote, then some other way. Removing remote operation from contests will not encourage cheaters to do the work because they hate work. If anything, the electronic progress of various kinds seems to be INCREASING participation, which helps everyone. Folks will figure out how to diminish the lag problem. And over time will figure a way to do slick operating in spite of what lag remains. It will be neat to do one shift at K4VV from Los Angeles and then another one from North Carolina, with business travel in between. For many that would make a vast improvement in what would have been yet another deadly dreary travel weekend. Get over it. Deal with it. Enjoy the progress. 73, Guy. On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Dave Blaschke, w5un wrote: Notice how ARRL is endorsing all of this. read that first paragraph, especially: "The scattered K3TN team worked *via the Internet *through the station of Jack Hammett, K4VV". I thought our hobby was about radio, not internet. On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: Hi Guys, I am really & truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station- logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises th
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On Thu,2/26/2015 11:59 AM, kol...@rcn.com wrote: What's sad in my view, is that in my M/M and M/S experiences, one of the greatest parts was getting together with the ops I was friends with that, due to time, distance or both, I didn't get to see much. The contest was fun, but the comradery was even more so. Just like when you ask most retired Major League players what they miss most, it is the locker room and their ex-teammates. I agree with that, BUT -- as we get older, move about, have reduced financial resources due to retirement, getting together becomes increasingly difficult. The only reason I go to Dayton and Visalia is to hang out with the guys I've been working on the air for years (and in some cases, since I was a kid). FWIW, during the years I operated at N6RO, there was precious little time to hang out. Everyone's butt was either in the chair or in the sack. The team efforts I've enjoyed were for serious multi-transmitter field setups, like Field Day and county expeditions for the California QSO Party. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Mike, the difference is that on the DX Net, everyone was not using the same transmitter and receiver. I am not trying to protect my superior location from competition. It is on a rock cliff directly south of Cleveland and 30 miles from KY. It is, on balance, pretty good and I get my share of DX. Those guys over in the eastern panhandle of WV, the suburbs of DC, now they have some prop worth protecting :-) Nowhere in my post did I say users of the paid remote or any remote were abusing the rules. In fact, I said the remotes are in compliance with the DXCC and FCC rules. At some point, if everyone feels they have to spend $$ and use a remote superstation to be competitive in Topband DXing, you will see an impact in the pileups, especially short/marginal openings. As I said, it is what it is. I am generally a supporter of the technology. My view of it is not through rose colored glasses. We will all adjust. 73 Charlie N8RR > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 12:14:09 -0700 > From: w...@w0mu.com > To: topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World > > On 2/26/2015 11:41 AM, Charlie wrote: > > > > Say there are 30 folks lined up on a chat board waiting their turn to call > > EP6T from WX1XXX when the band opens. The order of calling has been > > predecided, perhaps in sequence of log in. Everything is locked and > > loaded. > This has already happened in the past long before the internet. It was > called the DX Net... > > > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Actually Jim old boy, I have. I have been a Frankford RC member for 43 years and have operated from many M/M and M/S stations both in the US and as DX. I have a good idea what goes into it and have helped troubleshoot problems, fix rigs and amps and helped with antennas (from the ground as I get a nosebleed when I stand on a chair, LOL) from various of those stations. I know and have worked with W2VJN who I would say knows a bit about interstation interference, hi hi. I have never built a M/M myself as I don't have the QTH, resources or inclination. Certainly, it's a lot of work and remoting it makes things that much more difficult (though that's much easier now than it was, say, 15 years ago). What's sad in my view, is that in my M/M and M/S experiences, one of the greatest parts was getting together with the ops I was friends with that, due to time, distance or both, I didn't get to see much. The contest was fun, but the comradery was even more so. Just like when you ask most retired Major League players what they miss most, it is the locker room and their ex-teammates. I work in audio myself at CBS-TV in NYC in a television (audio and video) network studio and distribution facility, so I have a bit of an idea what is involved to design a complex facility :) And I make my own cables, thank you. Best, Kevin K3OX - Original Message - From: "Jim Brown" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 12:49:28 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World On Thu,2/26/2015 7:29 AM, kol...@rcn.com wrote: > Sometimes it's more in how things are presented. The thing that struck me was > how the ARRL looked at it was some kind of triumphant feat when it struck me > as, ultimately, kind of sad. Have you ever visited a multi-transmitter contesting station? Do you have any idea of the engineering it took to build it and make it competitive? We're talking antenna system design, careful engineering and filtering to allow multiple transmitters at high power to not interfere with others at the same QTH, power distribution for those transmitters, an acoustic operating environment that permits all those guys to be running SSB in the same room without going nuts? Do you have any idea of the systems engineering needed to remote a single station? I'm an EE, designed complex audio systems in my professional life. I've looked at what it would take to remote my station and quickly decided that it was WAY too much work. Heck -- it takes much of my time keeping my station running for me to sit in front of. Among other things, you've got to goof-proof the control systems so that you don't fry your gear (and Mr. Rodman described). Multiply that by 5 or 6 stations, and that's a very serious accomplishment. THAT is ham radio. Sitting in front of a radio that you bought, set on a table, and hooked up to an antenna that you bought with pre-made cables that you bought is a lot closer to CB than ham radio. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TI9/3Z9DX, etc.
Jeff, Thanks, but what did I do? Did you mean to say Mike, W0MU? 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > Wow! I guess I also have to thank Mike W0BTU for my TI9/3Z9DX contact. > [snip] > To: topband@contesting.com, W0MU Mike Fatchett > Subject: Re: Topband: TI9/3Z9DX > [snip] > Mike. I emailed Dom asking for a 160 meter, time specific, ... Thanks > Mike, appreciate the help, > > Bruce-K1FZ > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Interested in experiences with the TenTec 599, AKA Eagle on 160? CW.
Aloha! I am new to this whole 160 thing and slowly(recovering from rotator cuff repair) getting things together. I've been reading the mail for a couple of months now. I would like to compare notes and will appreciate personal email from anyone who has used a TenTec 599, AKA Eagle, on 160. Thanks. 73, Bob ah7i/w4 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On 2015-02-26, at 2:14 PM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote: > On 2/26/2015 11:41 AM, Charlie wrote: >> Say there are 30 folks lined up on a chat board waiting their turn to call >> EP6T from WX1XXX when the band opens. The order of calling has been >> predecided, perhaps in sequence of log in. Everything is locked and loaded. > This has already happened in the past long before the internet. It was > called the DX Net... > There used to be list takers for DX stations, too, as I recall---and I can remember proficient DX'ers likening such a practice to "...shooting fish in a barrel." ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On 2/26/2015 11:41 AM, Charlie wrote: Say there are 30 folks lined up on a chat board waiting their turn to call EP6T from WX1XXX when the band opens. The order of calling has been predecided, perhaps in sequence of log in. Everything is locked and loaded. This has already happened in the past long before the internet. It was called the DX Net... _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Except it is not an ABUSE of the rules. People feel that it is an abuse but it is fully sanctioned by the ARRL. If people want to pay to use a station in NY that is their choice. How does that choice impact any of us? My DXCC and awards are MINE your participation on the bands has nothing to do with me working a station. Maybe you beat me out in a pile up but chances are I am still going to work the DX. We in the west have to work through the east coast wall to Europe and Africa and the Middle East. What exactly is the difference? You don't want to see your built in advantage of location minimized. I worked DX in Montana where I lived in the Summers and I am counting it. My stations, my contacts. I worked DX in a number of locations in Colorado. Once again my contacts, my awards, my dx. I can move to W1 land and still make contacts that count toward my DXCC. Why does anyone care about MY DXCC award. My award has no bearing on your award. So the only pure way or the right way to do it is that if I want an built in advantage, I have to actually spend more money to actually move to W1 land and build a station? Then it magically becomes ok? Remote receivers are probably being used all the time now. No way in the world to catch anyone doing it. There are so many of them. That is not what this discussion is about though. Cheaters will cheat regardless of the rules. Mike W0MU On 2/26/2015 11:53 AM, Jim Brown wrote: On Thu,2/26/2015 10:41 AM, Charlie wrote: The serious DX chasers, especially Topband, are faced with a dilemma now. Anyone who wants to pay the $$ can be at the head of the line for a rare one by remoting to a world class station, rather than using his own equipment. Many will elect to do that. I will not be one of them. Nor will I. I agree entirely with your analysis, Charlie. I view the use of a remote station far from my QTH for that sort of advantage as cheating, even though ARRL considers it OK. It is exactly this sort of abuse that gives remote operation a bad name. From NorCal, I had not a snowball's chance in hell of working EP6T on topband -- heck, except for contest stations islands like EA8 and CT3, I haven't heard EU or AF on topband for several years. I did work them on one band, I think it was 15M. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Yes! Mike W0MU On 2/26/2015 10:49 AM, Jim Brown wrote: On Thu,2/26/2015 7:29 AM, kol...@rcn.com wrote: Sometimes it's more in how things are presented. The thing that struck me was how the ARRL looked at it was some kind of triumphant feat when it struck me as, ultimately, kind of sad. Have you ever visited a multi-transmitter contesting station? Do you have any idea of the engineering it took to build it and make it competitive? We're talking antenna system design, careful engineering and filtering to allow multiple transmitters at high power to not interfere with others at the same QTH, power distribution for those transmitters, an acoustic operating environment that permits all those guys to be running SSB in the same room without going nuts? Do you have any idea of the systems engineering needed to remote a single station? I'm an EE, designed complex audio systems in my professional life. I've looked at what it would take to remote my station and quickly decided that it was WAY too much work. Heck -- it takes much of my time keeping my station running for me to sit in front of. Among other things, you've got to goof-proof the control systems so that you don't fry your gear (and Mr. Rodman described). Multiply that by 5 or 6 stations, and that's a very serious accomplishment. THAT is ham radio. Sitting in front of a radio that you bought, set on a table, and hooked up to an antenna that you bought with pre-made cables that you bought is a lot closer to CB than ham radio. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On Thu,2/26/2015 10:41 AM, Charlie wrote: The serious DX chasers, especially Topband, are faced with a dilemma now. Anyone who wants to pay the $$ can be at the head of the line for a rare one by remoting to a world class station, rather than using his own equipment. Many will elect to do that. I will not be one of them. Nor will I. I agree entirely with your analysis, Charlie. I view the use of a remote station far from my QTH for that sort of advantage as cheating, even though ARRL considers it OK. It is exactly this sort of abuse that gives remote operation a bad name. From NorCal, I had not a snowball's chance in hell of working EP6T on topband -- heck, except for contest stations islands like EA8 and CT3, I haven't heard EU or AF on topband for several years. I did work them on one band, I think it was 15M. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Well, I *don't* understand why people are upset about this. The K4VV crowd operated a station in Virginia that had all it's antennas and all the RX and all the TX on one local property. They reported their logs as VA, USA. That hardly seems a stretch of rules. The rules don't say anything about all operators eating a meal on the property during the contest to qualify. There are no biblical instructions about remote operating. No words from God. Just the rules put down by the contest organizers. The organizers get to interpret their own rules any way they want. Don't like the rules, then vote with your feet. Enough feet leave, they'll change the rules. But some of you are complaining about the most popular contests. Hardly any resounding protest exit going on there. So just what does a "right way" statement criticizing the contest organizers of a popular contest mean? Might as well say it's unfair to drive on the left side of the road while in Britain. The only possible cheating at K4VV would be that the remote operators used RX that were not at the K4VV site. But if you think about it, the RX with the antennas at K4VV are most likely far better than what the ops had at home. It certainly would be so for me. I would not bother to substitute anything at my site for the antennas and RX at K4VV. Good stations work out all the stuff I could hear at my station in half of the first day. Everybody works them. Working them is no advantage. The winners are made from the stations that work the Q's and mults I can't hear at all at my home station. People have done remote mountain stations for decades, along with legally using them in contests. They used UHF links or telephone lines and it was difficult, expensive. Ready-made equipment for those purposes was not available. Now the internet and galloping progress in circuitry make such schemes available inexpensively. Others will and have posted about people in retirement homes being able to continue their hobby remotely, vastly improving late-year quality of life for long-time hams. You gonna say fine, but you don't get to operate in contests? Come on. Others are complaining that remote stations in good places ruin competition. Really? When was the last time you competed with K3LR, or W3LPL? If anything, a station that can be staffed with anyone with internet access will tend to increase competition for LR and LPL. Travel in winter not needed, room and board for a mob not needed, taking Friday off for travel not needed, etc, etc., will tend to increase on-the-air band-hours in contests. Let's hear a complaint from someone who has a few first place finishes, who thinks "cheaters" doing remote operating are ruining it for them. But you won't, because they will tell you that the number one factor in their wins was the team's operating acumen (that 27 dB between the ears), butt in chair, and preparation of station ahead of time. I don't hear Tim or Frank D. complaining. Those folks and their operating crowd turn in top scores from anywhere they operate. Therefore, using statistical logic, their main advantage must be in something they carry around with them everywhere, like something in their head. There have been and always will be cheaters who want the acclaim of high scores but who don't want to do the work to make it happen according to the contest organizer's rules. Loading the entire 27 dB between the ears takes WORK, and cheaters hate work. Remote or no remote will make zero difference in that. Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. If not by remote, then some other way. Removing remote operation from contests will not encourage cheaters to do the work because they hate work. If anything, the electronic progress of various kinds seems to be INCREASING participation, which helps everyone. Folks will figure out how to diminish the lag problem. And over time will figure a way to do slick operating in spite of what lag remains. It will be neat to do one shift at K4VV from Los Angeles and then another one from North Carolina, with business travel in between. For many that would make a vast improvement in what would have been yet another deadly dreary travel weekend. Get over it. Deal with it. Enjoy the progress. 73, Guy. On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 4:26 PM, Dave Blaschke, w5un wrote: > Notice how ARRL is endorsing all of this. read that first paragraph, > especially: "The scattered K3TN team worked *via the Internet *through the > station of Jack Hammett, K4VV". I thought our hobby was about radio, not > internet. > > On 2/25/2015 9:05 PM, Eddy Swynar wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> >> I am really & truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even >> an eyebrow at this story: >> >> http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station- >> logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest >> >> The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence & >> the "...joie de vivre!" of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And >> to imagine that o
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Technological advances have consequences. With remote operation, most of the consequences are positive. These positive consequences have been well stated. There are also some negative consequences. On balance, the good outweighs the bad, but the downside should be recognized. Generally what someone else does with radio does not impact me or my enjoyment, unless they get their kicks by throwing 40 over carriers on the DX. I don't care if folks use code readers, chat rooms, cluster spots to find DX or whatever. In fact, I use all the modern tools myself (except code readers- thankfully I can still hear). To focus this on Topband, consider the following scenario: A theoretical station in Maine, WX1XXX, has invested in a full size 160M four square and has multiple rx antennas, including 8 circles and beverages. The odds of propagation favoring WX1XXX for a particular expedition, because of the NE coastal location, are far higher than for anyone even 200 miles inland, except under unpredictable spotlight condx. If you consider how well equipped the station of WX1XXX is, coupled with the prop advantage, he is typically going to work the dxpedition first in good condx, and may be one of the handful who can work the DX at all in marginal condx. WX1XXX working the DX first is all part of the game. He is a good op who has expended resources and worked to build a station, in a geographic location, that results in world class performance on Topband. No participant in the game begrudges WX1XXX his QSO. In fact, we all admire WX1XXX and his station building/operating ability. Now say WX1XXX decides to remote his station, so that he can operate from work or while traveling. No problem, more power to him. This is a positive consequence of the technology. WX1XXX has a crew who helps with antenna construction and station maintenance. Some of these folks don't have well equipped home stations. WX1XXX decides to open up his remote station to his helper friends, so they can experience working DX with a big station. This is no different than WX1XXX inviting a friend to his station for working EP6T. Such invitations have been extended forever. The remote capability removes the inconvenience and cost of the friend having to travel to the WX1XXX shack. So far, what WX1XXX has done with the remote has not significantly impacted the other serious players in the game. Now WX1XXX decides to sell access to his remote station. Instead of only WX1XXX or a few close friends chasing EP6T from this world class station, there may be 10 to 30 people who feel their best shot at success will come by paying $$$ to use the WX1XXX station. Some of these will be on the west coast, maybe some in the mid west and even some on the east coast. Likely, a majority of these stations lining up for a shot at an EP6T QSO from the WX1XXX superstation have reasonably well equipped stations at home. They might have a shot for an EP6T QSO from home but it is a much longer shot than it will be from WX1XXX. Human nature being what it is, there will be folks who would pay $$$ to use WX1XXX for a nearly guaranteed QSO rather than chancing not making one from their less well equipped or less geographically advantaged location. The Q is the most important thing to them, not how the Q is made. In this paid remote case, no one is violating the official DXCC rules or the FCC rules but I think this aspect is what most folks find distasteful. I could care less what someone does to make a Q, if it does not impact me personally. There have always been folks who have their friends work the DX for them. There are folks who run 20 KW. The paid remote business at least can be said to be legal or within the rules, not so some of the other practices. Still, it can have some negative consequences for the other game players, under some scenarios. Say there are 30 folks lined up on a chat board waiting their turn to call EP6T from WX1XXX when the band opens. The order of calling has been predecided, perhaps in sequence of log in. Everything is locked and loaded. Some of these openings only last minutes, centered around the DX sunrise. Some days the band does not open at all. At N8RR, I only had one EP6T sunrise opening and they were workable for perhaps 5 to 8 minutes, max. I think EP6T only had 30 some odd QSO's during that opening to NA. I tried, but was not one of the 30 who made it. Now, I am not saying a remote station was a factor in me not making a QSO during this short opening. I was far from being the only one who did not get a Q with EP6T. However, if I take the theoretical scenario of WX1XXX having a 30 user list waiting to call EP6T during a five minute opening, I can reasonably conclude that my chances of a Q are diminished here in WV using my inverted L and Hi Z triangle rx antenna. The WX1XXX users don't even need to wo
Re: Topband: Brave New World
>CW is much more popular since the FCC removed the requirement for the code I'm calling BS on that one. Tune across the CW bands at night. Very little activity compared to 30 or 40 years ago. Of course, I define CW activity as being real CW operating, i.e. ragchewing, handling traffic...certainly not the programmed "ur 599 TU 73" junk that many consider to be a QSO. Sorry but that doesn't make the nut. Neither do contests and DX QSOs. Those aren't the real deal, when it comes to CW operating. Anyone can program a gadget or computer to handle that. Count the number of ops working each other with bugs -- you can tell they aren't fakers that way -- then you'll have a better idea of how "popular" CW is. Answer--it's dying away, probably why Scott Robbins at Vibroplex is getting into other product lines and Ten Tec now calls itself "The SSB Company." The handwriting is on the wall. But the real tragedy in eliminating the CW test is that if took away the ability for a beginner to assemble a basic transmitter and use it to communicate on HF. You can certainly still build such a rig, but without the requirement to learn the code to get a license, many won't bother to do either, starting out on 2 m. FM, getting bored and dropping out. Eliminating CW was a big big mistake, but if your bread and butter is fresh meat--new members, new subscriptions, people with money buying new stuff--you probably don't see it that way. 73 Rob K5UJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On Thu,2/26/2015 7:29 AM, kol...@rcn.com wrote: Sometimes it's more in how things are presented. The thing that struck me was how the ARRL looked at it was some kind of triumphant feat when it struck me as, ultimately, kind of sad. Have you ever visited a multi-transmitter contesting station? Do you have any idea of the engineering it took to build it and make it competitive? We're talking antenna system design, careful engineering and filtering to allow multiple transmitters at high power to not interfere with others at the same QTH, power distribution for those transmitters, an acoustic operating environment that permits all those guys to be running SSB in the same room without going nuts? Do you have any idea of the systems engineering needed to remote a single station? I'm an EE, designed complex audio systems in my professional life. I've looked at what it would take to remote my station and quickly decided that it was WAY too much work. Heck -- it takes much of my time keeping my station running for me to sit in front of. Among other things, you've got to goof-proof the control systems so that you don't fry your gear (and Mr. Rodman described). Multiply that by 5 or 6 stations, and that's a very serious accomplishment. THAT is ham radio. Sitting in front of a radio that you bought, set on a table, and hooked up to an antenna that you bought with pre-made cables that you bought is a lot closer to CB than ham radio. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
None taken...my K3 ' s are enough. Original message From: Rob Atkinson Date:02/26/2015 10:57 (GMT-06:00) To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World > I operate my home station every day using a computer in my office from 70 > miles > away over the internet. > > It's no different than sitting in front of the equipment. No offense but I suggest you get some more exciting radio equipment to run. 73 Rob K5UJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I operate my home station every day using a computer in my office from 70 miles away over the internet. It's no different than sitting in front of the equipment. No offense but I suggest you get some more exciting radio equipment to run. ...something that buzzes, arcs, sparks, clicks, smells sweet like PCB's, and gives you RF burns would be real radio Otherwise, it is the end of Ham radio for all of us! _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: TI9/3Z9DX, etc.
Wow! I guess I also have to thank Mike W0BTU for my TI9/3Z9DX contact. Doing a SO160(A) for DXing only I thought they would be 160 during the contest and it would be impossible to break the inevitable pile up. Didn't know about this sked, but I set my rig on 1.844 up 1 split and was hopefully listening to the noise and QSB on my South Beverage for about 40 min while doing a linux installation on my old WinXP machine. Then at 0300 things started happening and at 0303 I heard my call clearly returned after 4 or 5 calls...got up and jumped around the room! And now I have my OQRS QSL on the way for number 122, all with low power. That is the fun of Top Band for me! Though I wish there were fewer alligators...but totally understandable. As for all the angst over remote operation and the death of ham radio etc., I think there are too many A types out there where winning is everything and they find no fun in the chase. Contesting gives me a rush, but I only compete with myself and if I cheated for a contact (the evil remote thread) I only cheat myself and there would be no jumping with joy! I had no problem with what K4VV didnot the same thing at all. Life is too short to worry about changing technology...just do what you want...accept or move on to something else.QRP anyone? CheersJeff VE3CV Message: 3 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 20:31:10 -0500 From: " K1FZ-Bruce " To: topband@contesting.com, W0MU Mike Fatchett Subject: Re: Topband: TI9/3Z9DX Message-ID: <20150223203110.afgg3dmewww08...@webmail.myfairpoint.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed" Mike. I emailed Dom asking for a 160 meter, time specific,?North America standby.? On? 02/22/2015 they were on working mixed instead of just Europe.? The opening to Northern New England was only about 15?minutes long. ? Found their listening frequency, called them at 0331 UTC? and? made the contact on the first call. It also worked out well with many other North America stations making the contact.? Thanks Mike, appreciate the help, Bruce-K1FZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Maybe Dennis could get this ticket and set up a DX station in North Korea. Mike N2MS - Original Message - From: Herbert Schoenbohm To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 13:39:26 - (UTC) Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World Dennis Rodman the former NBA basket ballplayer has free entry in and out of PDRK as a special guest of Kim Yong somanyone who is a rodmanshold get special tratment. Herb, KV4FZ On 2/26/2015 9:28 AM, Jim wrote: > Huh? What's that about? > > Jim W1YY/7 > > -Original Message- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Herbert > Schoenbohm > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 5:24 AM > To: topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World > > I forgot to add that with a name like Rodman all you need are some tattoos > and a few gold rings through your lips and you can probably have a clear path > to setting this stuff up yourself.☺ > > Herb, KV4FZ > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
So far the Locust name has not cut it. Apparently Worms trump Locusts? I haven't heard from VVA in a while. I hope he is doing ok. Mike W0MU On 2/26/2015 9:50 AM, Merv Schweigert wrote: Shoot I was wondering when there was going to be a CW operation from P5 since Rodman goes over all the time, thinking top band guys may have an edge :o) Merv K9FD/KH6 I forgot to add that with a name like Rodman all you need are some tattoos and a few gold rings through your lips and you can probably have a clear path to setting this stuff up yourself.☺ Herb, KV4FZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
> I operate my home station every day using a computer in my office from 70 > miles > away over the internet. > > It's no different than sitting in front of the equipment. No offense but I suggest you get some more exciting radio equipment to run. 73 Rob K5UJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
On 2/26/2015 9:37 AM, mstang...@comcast.net wrote: Let's put this into context. This is not the end of the world. It is the creation of a whole new world. One that has opened many doors for people to operate and enjoy ham radio and even extend their ability to radio in their older years. Where exactly is the problem? How has remote radio impacted YOU in a negative way. Please site examples with details and data.. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Shoot I was wondering when there was going to be a CW operation from P5 since Rodman goes over all the time, thinking top band guys may have an edge :o) Merv K9FD/KH6 I forgot to add that with a name like Rodman all you need are some tattoos and a few gold rings through your lips and you can probably have a clear path to setting this stuff up yourself.☺ Herb, KV4FZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Let's put this into context. This is not the end of the world. Amateur Radio is a hobby and like any hobby has various facets. Different people have various ideas of what the hobby should be. Some hams are or imagine themselves to be experimenters, engineers, metalworkers, awards collectors, country collectors, traffic policemen, radio broadcasters, military radio operators, historians, first responders, survivalists, adventurers or equipment flippers. (Have I missed anything?) I've heard complaints about the hobby not being what is used to be since I started in the hobby in the 1960's. This is usually out of envy so I take no stock it this argument. The hobby has not changed but the technology had radically changed. I started in the hobby because of the fascination of communicating through the "either" without using and any other communications infrastructure. I like to build equipment and operate without depending on external communication aids such as spotters, DX clusters, online propagation forecasts, text messaging or the internet. I presently live on an acre plot which has given me the ability to put up an Inverted V to effectively operate on 160 meters. I am a pragmatist. I am not getting any younger and my wife wants to downsize. I may end up in a place where I cannot put up effective antennas so I may consider remote operation as an option. We all have health issues and we may end up in retirement communities or assisted living so remote operation can enable me to enjoy the hobby. We should consider the new technology as a way of extending our hobby. Mike N2MS -Original Message- Hi Guys, Is the day very far off in the distant future when the physical human element won't even be needed at a radio station on the eve of a contest...? Just programme the event into the computer, hook it up to the rig...and then go off to bed. The next day you meander down to the shack, coffee in hand & rubbing the sleep out of your eyes, to learn that in your absence, your station made some 5,000 QSOs, AND DXCC, twice over! Remember "Dr. DX" of the 1980's...? Shades of days yet to come---if , indeed, those days are not here already. At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur---on second thought, who cares? The dinosaurs ruled the earth for untold millions of years, to man's single million---just as insurance companies & lawyers are spelling the demise of kids' playground toys and group get-togethers, computers will spell the end of the very essence that makes Ham radio fun. At least to dinosaurs like yours truly, anyway. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
CW is much more popular since the FCC removed the requirement for code.Think about that for a minute. People have are trying and using CW much more now that it is not forced on them. Ham Radio did not die that day. The bands are not filled with anymore LIDS than they were before that day. The no code license has also allowed a huge number of people to work in their local communities interfacing with their local emergency services departments, Red Cross, hospitals etc. Most of these people we hardly hear about. A remote contact requires radio and rf and both ends of the contact. My remote, which I don't have tells my transmitter to xmit then I receive. The station on the other end is also using RF. Remote radio is simply an extension of the mic cord, keyer cord and headphones. We are not talking about working people on the internet without RF such as chat rooms. Everything was always better in the old days right? I don't think so. Maybe for some of you guys that are 20 years older than me. Interfacing with computers, remote operation, the amazing work of weak signal processing, SteppIR antennas, 8 element circle shortened rcv arrays and rtty and cw decoding and spotting are very interesting to me. They keep me interested in the hobby. I enjoy chasing new ones and breaking pileups. People demand new things to work so people have to dream up new "countries" ie sand bars and rocks that require scaffolding to operate from to keep the people happy. We have created a bunch of rules to allow unihabited locations such as BS7, KP1, KP5 and many more to become "countries". You don't like remote operation. I don't like creating countries that don't really exist just so I have another new one to work. Mike W0MU On 2/26/2015 8:29 AM, kol...@rcn.com wrote: Sometimes it's more in how things are presented. The thing that struck me was how the ARRL looked at it was some kind of triumphant feat when it struck me as, ultimately, kind of sad. It was late in 2006 when it c ame out that the FCC would remove the CW requirement for HF operation in early 2007 . Actua lly, I had expected it to happen, figured it was inevitable and had come to grips. But the President of our local Radio club anounced it on the reflector to the membership with the message title "A Chris tmas gift to all". Mostly I am a laid-back guy, but somehow this made me see red. Why? Back in the day, when a fellow ham would screw up, we would kid him with "where'd you get your license, out of a Cracker Jack Box?" (or if you are Firesignian in nature, a Cracker Back Jox) Well, in this case, at least the guy would have had to buy the box of Cracker Jack! It was the idea that a HF Amateur Radio license should be a "gift" that stuck in my craw. This also became tinged with sadness as I realized that the "powers that be" had come to the (probably correct) conclusion that people would no longer see an Amateur Radio lic ense as being worth putting in some effort for and would only deign to be licensed if it was all but "given" to them. BTW, this is not intended as a "you kids get off my lawn" kind of rant, just a statement on how it is. Ham radio will go on, but the glory days as we knew them are pretty much the province of us veteran hams . That shouldn't stop us from enjoying it as we have been doing or welcoming the new hams that "get" what we do. I just doubt that all that many future hams will look at ham radio as we do. They will find their own ways and interests, but the romance of putting together their own station to work some far away island through the noise on top band will probably (and, I guess, understandingly) elude them in a time where you can walk down the street talking to your buddy in Australia on your smart phone, rent a few minutes on a remote superstation to work the latest Dxpedition, or operate from a big multi-multi contest station without leaving your apartment. Best, Kevin - Original Message - From: "Eddy Swynar" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:05:09 PM Subject: Topband: Brave New World Hi Guys, I am really & truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence & the "...joie de vivre!" of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the "perpetrators" in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia..." This too is "progress"...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things "de-evolve," & nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Sometimes it's more in how things are presented. The thing that struck me was how the ARRL looked at it was some kind of triumphant feat when it struck me as, ultimately, kind of sad. It was late in 2006 when it c ame out that the FCC would remove the CW requirement for HF operation in early 2007 . Actua lly, I had expected it to happen, figured it was inevitable and had come to grips. But the President of our local Radio club anounced it on the reflector to the membership with the message title "A Chris tmas gift to all". Mostly I am a laid-back guy, but somehow this made me see red. Why? Back in the day, when a fellow ham would screw up, we would kid him with "where'd you get your license, out of a Cracker Jack Box?" (or if you are Firesignian in nature, a Cracker Back Jox) Well, in this case, at least the guy would have had to buy the box of Cracker Jack! It was the idea that a HF Amateur Radio license should be a "gift" that stuck in my craw. This also became tinged with sadness as I realized that the "powers that be" had come to the (probably correct) conclusion that people would no longer see an Amateur Radio lic ense as being worth putting in some effort for and would only deign to be licensed if it was all but "given" to them. BTW, this is not intended as a "you kids get off my lawn" kind of rant, just a statement on how it is. Ham radio will go on, but the glory days as we knew them are pretty much the province of us veteran hams . That shouldn't stop us from enjoying it as we have been doing or welcoming the new hams that "get" what we do. I just doubt that all that many future hams will look at ham radio as we do. They will find their own ways and interests, but the romance of putting together their own station to work some far away island through the noise on top band will probably (and, I guess, understandingly) elude them in a time where you can walk down the street talking to your buddy in Australia on your smart phone, rent a few minutes on a remote superstation to work the latest Dxpedition, or operate from a big multi-multi contest station without leaving your apartment. Best, Kevin - Original Message - From: "Eddy Swynar" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:05:09 PM Subject: Topband: Brave New World Hi Guys, I am really & truly surprised that nobody here has raised so much as even an eyebrow at this story: http://www.arrl.org/news/no-one-in-the-shack-as-station-logs-4200-contacts-in-arrl-dx-cw-contest The whole notion---to me, at any rate---compromises the very essence & the "...joie de vivre!" of operating on 160-meters, don't you think...? And to imagine that one of the "perpetrators" in all this is actually exuberant about his accomplishment... “...'No one was in the K4VV shack for the entire contest!' said Mike L*, W0**, who took part in the contest via K4** from his own shack in Virginia..." This too is "progress"...? Oh well, I guess maybe it is. Time marches on, things evolve, things "de-evolve," & nothing stays quite the same. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Brave new world?
I don't understand the issue. If the people operating the remote station give their location as the location of that station then what's the problem? Propagation doesn't care where the operator is sitting. Neither does the ability of the operator to work a station. That said, of course if the operator using that remote station uses their home call (i.e. me using N4XD while actually operating a remote station in EU) would be completely wrong and, I believe, illegal. And certainly,in a contest, unacceptable. If I were the sponsor of the contest I'd ban those operators for 3 to 5 years from entering my contest and make it public why. Its not possible for them to claim to have made a "mistake". It would have been done knowingly. Ron N4XD _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Herb, I understand your frustration with your call sign screw ups. I get the same thing from time to time using a VA prefix. I worked North Korea on both 10 and 15m, but the 15m contact was no where to be found, nothing even close. That and other screw ups has taught me to make sure I am in the log, if I really need that country or band, to make a duplicate contact. I know some will get all bent and twisted out of shape for that practice, but I am in this game to win. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- Doug, How-long is "now?" There is nothing "instant" about working North Korea for DXCC. It would take much time and meticulous planning. And some places I worked have been for decades. Actually waiting for and working BS7H and then "got that dreaded message" I was not in the log...I probably will never ever have another chance work this piece of rock in the South China Sea. There are gunboats nearby to make sure of that. I do not feel "entitled" to work anything nor even find someone who has access to the BS7H logs and find my call there as/*K4VFZ */which so often occurs even though the op replied with "KV4FZ TU" How would I ever know what the op put down in the log until it was to late to do anything about it? BTW /*K4VFZ*/ has never been issued as a call but it has over 100 countries already without ever working any of them. It continues to be a struggle and the techologocial advances like the internet, Remote Rig, automatically controlled amps, Steppers, skimmers and the like should never be considered a scourge on our hobby as some try to portray them. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Doug, How-long is "now?" There is nothing "instant" about working North Korea for DXCC. It would take much time and meticulous planning. And some places I worked have been for decades. Actually waiting for and working BS7H and then "got that dreaded message" I was not in the log...I probably will never ever have another chance work this piece of rock in the South China Sea. There are gunboats nearby to make sure of that. I do not feel "entitled" to work anything nor even find someone who has access to the BS7H logs and find my call there as/*K4VFZ */which so often occurs even though the op replied with "KV4FZ TU" How would I ever know what the op put down in the log until it was to late to do anything about it? BTW /*K4VFZ*/ has never been issued as a call but it has over 100 countries already without ever working any of them. It continues to be a struggle and the techologocial advances like the internet, Remote Rig, automatically controlled amps, Steppers, skimmers and the like should never be considered a scourge on our hobby as some try to portray them. On 2/26/2015 10:06 AM, Doug Renwick wrote: This is a good example of the entitlement crowd attitude. They believe that all the DXCC entities need to be available NOW, no waiting. Reaching the top of the honor roll was long term plan that kept us interested in DXing for a lifetime. Now some want it to be just like a mail order degree ... no work and instant gratification. Just like our schools ... no one fails ... everyone passes. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- I really believe all this concern where the operator is actually seated will be somewhat lessened when someone is able to get a compact plug and play emote controlled briefcase size setup in P5. The operation would not require a visa and radio clubs could share in providing the operators. A 100 watt package with a 20-10 vertical placed in a utility room on the top floor of the 1082 foot high Ryugyong hotel in downtown Pyongyang for the cost of just having the hotel feature on the QSL card. Some of the QSL proceeds cold go to a help establish a radio club in PDRK and those techies there could probably end up securing a proper license for the system. Just think of North Korean being on the air 24/7 and everyone would have a chance to finally get this most rare an elusive country confirmed. the badmouthing of remote controlled stations would end. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: *****SPAM***** Re: Brave New World
Don't feel sorry for me. For while it lasted I have had loads of fun, learned a lot, met many new friends, and travelled to places some can only dream of; all because of amateur radio. Yes I agree that the ARRL has 'sold it's soul to the devil'. Money. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- I'm sorry for you!. I'm alive, we are alive. Ham Radio is more exciting and alive than ever. 700.000 licensed in US only. Don't look in the mirror, just do what works for you. Ham Radio is an option and a hobby based on each one individual interest. I just worked my country # 278 o 160m since 2006, my first DXCC on 160 from Brazil started in 1972 and worked my #100 in 1992. Do I trade the first 20 years to work 100 with the last 9 that I worked #278. Definitively not. What I don't like about HRH is the commercial aspect of it, U$ /min air time. The legality of it depends on the money behind each side. We can lose our privileges with this precedent. It depends in how much money will in the table. Best strategy is do not play it, if you don't want to live with the doubt to lose it. Regards JC N4IS --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: *****SPAM***** Re: Brave New World
JC, In 1965 I remember taking the ferry from Rio over to Niteroi while hauling a large trunk with some Drake Twins, some wire and a tuner, along with the help of Rolf Rasp over to a location (PY1NFC?) in Niteroi I was able to get on the air on 160 to and work W1BB and other TB faithfuls who then needed Brazil for a TB new one. It was a major effort amid the thunderous QRN just for a dozen TB contacts but worth every minute. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ (PY1ZAI) On 2/26/2015 9:29 AM, JC wrote: Eddy, Ham Radio is dead, extinct. It has been replaced with Internet Radio.<< I'm sorry for you!. I'm alive, we are alive. Ham Radio is more exciting and alive than ever. 700.000 licensed in US only. Don't look in the mirror, just do what works for you. Ham Radio is an option and a hobby based on each one individual interest. I just worked my country # 278 o 160m since 2006, my first DXCC on 160 from Brazil started in 1972 and worked my #100 in 1992. Do I trade the first 20 years to work 100 with the last 9 that I worked #278. Definitively not. What I don't like about HRH is the commercial aspect of it, U$ /min air time. The legality of it depends on the money behind each side. We can lose our privileges with this precedent. It depends in how much money will in the table. Best strategy is do not play it, if you don't want to live with the doubt to lose it. Regards JC N4IS _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
This is a good example of the entitlement crowd attitude. They believe that all the DXCC entities need to be available NOW, no waiting. Reaching the top of the honor roll was long term plan that kept us interested in DXing for a lifetime. Now some want it to be just like a mail order degree ... no work and instant gratification. Just like our schools ... no one fails ... everyone passes. Doug I wasn't born in Saskatchewan, but I got here as soon as I could. -Original Message- I really believe all this concern where the operator is actually seated will be somewhat lessened when someone is able to get a compact plug and play emote controlled briefcase size setup in P5. The operation would not require a visa and radio clubs could share in providing the operators. A 100 watt package with a 20-10 vertical placed in a utility room on the top floor of the 1082 foot high Ryugyong hotel in downtown Pyongyang for the cost of just having the hotel feature on the QSL card. Some of the QSL proceeds cold go to a help establish a radio club in PDRK and those techies there could probably end up securing a proper license for the system. Just think of North Korean being on the air 24/7 and everyone would have a chance to finally get this most rare an elusive country confirmed. the badmouthing of remote controlled stations would end. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Dennis Rodman the former NBA basket ballplayer has free entry in and out of PDRK as a special guest of Kim Yong somanyone who is a rodmanshold get special tratment. Herb, KV4FZ On 2/26/2015 9:28 AM, Jim wrote: Huh? What's that about? Jim W1YY/7 -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Herbert Schoenbohm Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 5:24 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World I forgot to add that with a name like Rodman all you need are some tattoos and a few gold rings through your lips and you can probably have a clear path to setting this stuff up yourself.☺ Herb, KV4FZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Oops! Never mind, I get it now. That will teach me to reply to email moments after rolling out of bed... Jim, W1YY/7 -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Herbert Schoenbohm Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 5:24 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World I forgot to add that with a name like Rodman all you need are some tattoos and a few gold rings through your lips and you can probably have a clear path to setting this stuff up yourself.☺ Herb, KV4FZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: *****SPAM***** Re: Brave New World
>>Eddy, Ham Radio is dead, extinct. It has been replaced with Internet Radio.<< I'm sorry for you!. I'm alive, we are alive. Ham Radio is more exciting and alive than ever. 700.000 licensed in US only. Don't look in the mirror, just do what works for you. Ham Radio is an option and a hobby based on each one individual interest. I just worked my country # 278 o 160m since 2006, my first DXCC on 160 from Brazil started in 1972 and worked my #100 in 1992. Do I trade the first 20 years to work 100 with the last 9 that I worked #278. Definitively not. What I don't like about HRH is the commercial aspect of it, U$ /min air time. The legality of it depends on the money behind each side. We can lose our privileges with this precedent. It depends in how much money will in the table. Best strategy is do not play it, if you don't want to live with the doubt to lose it. Regards JC N4IS _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
Huh? What's that about? Jim W1YY/7 -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Herbert Schoenbohm Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 5:24 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Brave New World I forgot to add that with a name like Rodman all you need are some tattoos and a few gold rings through your lips and you can probably have a clear path to setting this stuff up yourself.☺ Herb, KV4FZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I forgot to add that with a name like Rodman all you need are some tattoos and a few gold rings through your lips and you can probably have a clear path to setting this stuff up yourself.☺ Herb, KV4FZ On 2/26/2015 9:11 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: At NP2P (N2TTA opp. my remote contest setup) I use Remote Rig and both the Icom 7100 and the Kenwood TS-2000 is an SO2R configuration. Both radios have a complete remote control heads at the location of the operator that is as good as being behind that actual radio. An on screen via Team Viewer controls the MFJ-RCS-12 band switch which also has a remote control panel on screen, EA4TX antenna rotator to control my Ham IV, and IP Power from control of the External TX RX 4 positions Beverage's when needed. My Alpha87A is automatic and there is also a remote control panel on the screen visible to the remote op for power output and band verification etc. It is a very easy and simple setup with the operator inside his apartment in Brooklyn, NY running QSO's at 40wpm and without a glitch or hiccup. The latency from here to there is 120ms via a DSL which was recently changed to their phone/cable/internet all in one product called EVO. I use a private IP address but DHCP also works. I no longer have to use filters on the twisted pair nor worry about RF shutting down the internet, I do have, however, fiber end to end from here to NYC. Fiber is a bit slower than the speed of light. But I have found WI-Max max services to be all over the ball park especially when users on my service sector are watching 4 movies at a time or heavy into video games. My DSL is 1.5 meg up and 1.5 meg down all the time and overtime and this is susfficient. The consistency of this ISP is what makes a big difference. It can cost 1000's of dollars for travel, food and lodging, to a contest location. So it is certain we will see more remote control in the future. I really believe all this concern where the operator is actually seated will be somewhat lessened when someone is able to get a compact plug and play emote controlled briefcase size setup in P5. The operation would not require a visa and radio clubs could share in providing the operators. A 100 watt package with a 20-10 vertical placed in a utility room on the top floor of the 1082 foot high Ryugyong hotel in downtown Pyongyang for the cost of just having the hotel feature on the QSL card. Some of the QSL proceeds cold go to a help establish a radio club in PDRK and those techies there could probably end up securing a proper license for the system. Just think of North Korean being on the air 24/7 and everyone would have a chance to finally get this most rare an elusive country confirmed. the badmouthing of remote controlled stations would end. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 2/26/2015 8:05 AM, D Rodman MD wrote: I receive the list archived and this makes replying to individual posts difficult. It seems to me W0BTU summed it up succinctly. There are time delays and depending on the setup, it it varies from no factor to disabling. I don't know what others have for remote stations. I can tell you, I have about the most comprehensive one in the world. I have been doing it, off and on, for about 10 to 12 years. Most recently, I purchased a K3, a remote head and have been using RemoteRig. I would say it is not too bad. Two issues that bother me are the lack of being able to use the key input on the remote head. This is a software issue. The second is latency. If the latency varies, CW becomes impossible. That is right, impossible. If the latency stays constant, it will work. I had my remote K3 out of the country in January. From my hotel, I was able from time to time use it and make contacts. However, watching the latency vary from 0.22 to over 0.3 sec at times made QSO's difficult. I was able to work some SSB but my audio would drop out from time to time and leave 5-6 words missing. Not too bad for a native English speaking station but second language stations were clearly questioning what was going on. CW was impossible. Locally, the system works pretty well. Look, this is a serious leap of faith. You are not there. You can't hear or feel changes in the environment. Unfamiliarity with equipment can lead to guest operators making serious mistakes in operating routines or sequences and this leads to failure. Last year during the ARRL SSB contest, I ruined one of my SteppIR antennas by transmitting during a band change. No I don't have the transmitter locked out. A simple mistake. I am not saying this is not ready for prime time, but there are many issues to be considered. As to what the ARRL says or does not say, we should not be surprised. Anytime they can propagandize ham radio with little or no downside, they will. Otherwise, the league remains strangely silent on many controversial or political circumstances. Good luck guys.
Re: Topband: *****SPAM***** Re: Brave New World
Hi Doug It is not us who have to change hobby, but them! Long ago the definition of RADIO was "Cordless Phone", it seems to me that in the internet there is too much wire!!! It would be as if Marconi to turn on the lights in Sydney had used the phone to access a Melbourne radio to connect with a radio in Sydney, would upset the story! 73 Fausto I4EAT At 05:11 26/02/2015, you wrote: Eddy, Ham Radio is dead, extinct. It has been replaced with Internet Radio. I once held an amateur radio licence; it now belongs in a museum. Some how good things don't last forever. I have had a lot of fun when the hobby was amateur radio. I guess it is time to move on and find another fun hobby. And to those who enjoy internet radio; try and have some fun knowing you just killed amateur radio. Doug _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
At NP2P (N2TTA opp. my remote contest setup) I use Remote Rig and both the Icom 7100 and the Kenwood TS-2000 is an SO2R configuration. Both radios have a complete remote control heads at the location of the operator that is as good as being behind that actual radio. An on screen via Team Viewer controls the MFJ-RCS-12 band switch which also has a remote control panel on screen, EA4TX antenna rotator to control my Ham IV, and IP Power from control of the External TX RX 4 positions Beverage's when needed. My Alpha87A is automatic and there is also a remote control panel on the screen visible to the remote op for power output and band verification etc. It is a very easy and simple setup with the operator inside his apartment in Brooklyn, NY running QSO's at 40wpm and without a glitch or hiccup. The latency from here to there is 120ms via a DSL which was recently changed to their phone/cable/internet all in one product called EVO. I use a private IP address but DHCP also works. I no longer have to use filters on the twisted pair nor worry about RF shutting down the internet, I do have, however, fiber end to end from here to NYC. Fiber is a bit slower than the speed of light. But I have found WI-Max max services to be all over the ball park especially when users on my service sector are watching 4 movies at a time or heavy into video games. My DSL is 1.5 meg up and 1.5 meg down all the time and overtime and this is susfficient. The consistency of this ISP is what makes a big difference. It can cost 1000's of dollars for travel, food and lodging, to a contest location. So it is certain we will see more remote control in the future. I really believe all this concern where the operator is actually seated will be somewhat lessened when someone is able to get a compact plug and play emote controlled briefcase size setup in P5. The operation would not require a visa and radio clubs could share in providing the operators. A 100 watt package with a 20-10 vertical placed in a utility room on the top floor of the 1082 foot high Ryugyong hotel in downtown Pyongyang for the cost of just having the hotel feature on the QSL card. Some of the QSL proceeds cold go to a help establish a radio club in PDRK and those techies there could probably end up securing a proper license for the system. Just think of North Korean being on the air 24/7 and everyone would have a chance to finally get this most rare an elusive country confirmed. the badmouthing of remote controlled stations would end. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 2/26/2015 8:05 AM, D Rodman MD wrote: I receive the list archived and this makes replying to individual posts difficult. It seems to me W0BTU summed it up succinctly. There are time delays and depending on the setup, it it varies from no factor to disabling. I don't know what others have for remote stations. I can tell you, I have about the most comprehensive one in the world. I have been doing it, off and on, for about 10 to 12 years. Most recently, I purchased a K3, a remote head and have been using RemoteRig. I would say it is not too bad. Two issues that bother me are the lack of being able to use the key input on the remote head. This is a software issue. The second is latency. If the latency varies, CW becomes impossible. That is right, impossible. If the latency stays constant, it will work. I had my remote K3 out of the country in January. From my hotel, I was able from time to time use it and make contacts. However, watching the latency vary from 0.22 to over 0.3 sec at times made QSO's difficult. I was able to work some SSB but my audio would drop out from time to time and leave 5-6 words missing. Not too bad for a native English speaking station but second language stations were clearly questioning what was going on. CW was impossible. Locally, the system works pretty well. Look, this is a serious leap of faith. You are not there. You can't hear or feel changes in the environment. Unfamiliarity with equipment can lead to guest operators making serious mistakes in operating routines or sequences and this leads to failure. Last year during the ARRL SSB contest, I ruined one of my SteppIR antennas by transmitting during a band change. No I don't have the transmitter locked out. A simple mistake. I am not saying this is not ready for prime time, but there are many issues to be considered. As to what the ARRL says or does not say, we should not be surprised. Anytime they can propagandize ham radio with little or no downside, they will. Otherwise, the league remains strangely silent on many controversial or political circumstances. Good luck guys. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Brave New World
I receive the list archived and this makes replying to individual posts difficult. It seems to me W0BTU summed it up succinctly. There are time delays and depending on the setup, it it varies from no factor to disabling. I don't know what others have for remote stations. I can tell you, I have about the most comprehensive one in the world. I have been doing it, off and on, for about 10 to 12 years. Most recently, I purchased a K3, a remote head and have been using RemoteRig. I would say it is not too bad. Two issues that bother me are the lack of being able to use the key input on the remote head. This is a software issue. The second is latency. If the latency varies, CW becomes impossible. That is right, impossible. If the latency stays constant, it will work. I had my remote K3 out of the country in January. From my hotel, I was able from time to time use it and make contacts. However, watching the latency vary from 0.22 to over 0.3 sec at times made QSO's difficult. I was able to work some SSB but my audio would drop out from time to time and leave 5-6 words missing. Not too bad for a native English speaking station but second language stations were clearly questioning what was going on. CW was impossible. Locally, the system works pretty well. Look, this is a serious leap of faith. You are not there. You can't hear or feel changes in the environment. Unfamiliarity with equipment can lead to guest operators making serious mistakes in operating routines or sequences and this leads to failure. Last year during the ARRL SSB contest, I ruined one of my SteppIR antennas by transmitting during a band change. No I don't have the transmitter locked out. A simple mistake. I am not saying this is not ready for prime time, but there are many issues to be considered. As to what the ARRL says or does not say, we should not be surprised. Anytime they can propagandize ham radio with little or no downside, they will. Otherwise, the league remains strangely silent on many controversial or political circumstances. Good luck guys. -- David J Rodman MD Assistant Clinical Professor Department of Ophthalmology SUNY/Buffalo Office 716-857-8654 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Modeling "Ground" and losses
On 26 Feb 2015, at 06:31, Richard Fry wrote: > > Quote from page 757 of the BL&E paper: For those who'd like to read the whole paper, you can access it here http://bit.ly/1LLdtCI Jeremy _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
