Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

[Rob Atkinson]

Scroll down to drawing 5 and 6 to see the proper way of handing
intersecting radials.

http://www.hatdaw.com/papers/groundsystem.pdf

73
Rob
K5UJ
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Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

[Lloyd - N9LB]

I use the "Lead-Free" plumbing solder to connect my radials & ground straps.
"Oatley Safe-Flo Lead Free Solder" is sold in most Home Improvement stores
in the plumbing department.

Do NOT use Lead-Tin "Radio Solder" - as that will leach into the soil fairly
rapidly.

73
Lloyd - N9LB


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces+lloydberg=tds@contesting.com] On
Behalf Of Rob Atkinson
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2020 4:55 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

Scroll down to drawing 5 and 6 to see the proper way of handing intersecting
radials.

http://www.hatdaw.com/papers/groundsystem.pdf

73
Rob
K5UJ
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Topband: Solar Flux Question

[Bill Stewart]

Per WWV, the solar flux is at 91. What, if any, affect does this have on 
propagation in HF or other 
frequency bandsand of course 160 meters. I have seen these geophysical 
numbers often, but 
never really understood what they meant. The flux has been running in the high 
60s/low 70s until 
a few weeks ago when I saw it in the 80s. 
Tnx de Bill K4JYS 
_
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Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question

[Artek Manuals]

Bill

Last night ON 160 I worked 32 European and SA stations with the reported 
SFI of 88.  earlier in the week with a similar SFI number I heard 
nothing from EU on 160. Conclusion : At these levels SFI is not the factor


Conditions on 15 and 12 have been for the last week or so been great . 
Lots of long path on 40 through 15 depending on the time of day & band. 
certainly far better than a year ago at SFI of 68-72 on the upper bands, 
on 160 and 80 hasn't been much of factor so far


DAVE
nr1dx


On 11/6/2020 3:23 PM, Bill Stewart wrote:

Per WWV, the solar flux is at 91. What, if any, affect does this have on 
propagation in HF or other
frequency bandsand of course 160 meters. I have seen these geophysical 
numbers often, but
never really understood what they meant. The flux has been running in the high 
60s/low 70s until
a few weeks ago when I saw it in the 80s.
Tnx de Bill K4JYS
_
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Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

[Carl Clawson]

Frank,

“Must” is a strong word. What goes wrong if you cross them?

73, Carl WS7L

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 9:47 PM  wrote:

> Hi Bob,
>
>
> While bonding the radials is desirable, its not essential. But you
> must NOT cross the radials over each other.
>
>
> ...



> 73
> Frank
> W3LPL
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: "Robert L. Chortek" 
> To: "TopBand List" 
> Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 2:05:43 AM
> Subject: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections
>
> I just finished installing a two element vertical array on 40M. The
> instructions say to bond the radials from one vertical where they intersect
> with a radial for the other vertical.
>
> My question is, is this really necessary and what effect would doing so
> (or not) have on the performance of the Array?
>
> Much appreciated.
>
> 73,
>
> Bob AA6VB
>
> Bob
> Robert L. Chortek
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
>
> _
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>
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Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 11/6/2020 1:10 PM, Carl Clawson wrote:

Frank,

“Must” is a strong word. What goes wrong if you cross them?

73, Carl WS7L



Also, if insulated wires are used for radials that cross
over each other, is that to be treated differently than bare
metal wires that cross over each other and touch
so as to have electrical connectivity?

Does it matter if cross over radials are soldered at the
crossovers, so as to prevent parasitic "diodes".

For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is
nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire.  And
Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires.

Rick N6RK
_
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Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question

[Bill Stewart]

Tnx Dave for the info. I have also noted nights with some strong EU
stations and the next night nothing heard...SFI staying the same. To
clarify, I run 100w and an inv. L and no special receive antennas.
So far this season I have made it into VK about 8 times and worked a
few EU stns as well. Most of this was done with the lower SFI values.
I have also noticed, on the DX Maps site, that ten mtrs has been open
some. Appears the higher SFI might help the higher bands, but little
or nothing on 160m. Interesting.
tnx Dave..73 de Bill K4JYS

- Original Message -
From: "Artek Manuals" 
To: "topband" 
Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 3:55:23 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question

Bill

Last night ON 160 I worked 32 European and SA stations with the reported 
SFI of 88.  earlier in the week with a similar SFI number I heard 
nothing from EU on 160. Conclusion : At these levels SFI is not the factor

Conditions on 15 and 12 have been for the last week or so been great . 
Lots of long path on 40 through 15 depending on the time of day & band. 
certainly far better than a year ago at SFI of 68-72 on the upper bands, 
on 160 and 80 hasn't been much of factor so far

DAVE
nr1dx


On 11/6/2020 3:23 PM, Bill Stewart wrote:
> Per WWV, the solar flux is at 91. What, if any, affect does this have on 
> propagation in HF or other
> frequency bandsand of course 160 meters. I have seen these geophysical 
> numbers often, but
> never really understood what they meant. The flux has been running in the 
> high 60s/low 70s until
> a few weeks ago when I saw it in the 80s.
> Tnx de Bill K4JYS
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector

-- 
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Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question

[Henk Remijn PA5KT via Topband]

My experience is that 160 conditions are also influenced by the solar wind.

https://solen.info/solar/indices.html.

This graph shows SFI and solar wind. When solar winds are up to 300 km/s 
the conditions are usually good on 160.


This happened in the beginning of october. Conditions in the week before 
the Stew Perry TBDC were good, During the contest it was less.


Due to the rotation of the Sun in approx 27 days you can a bit predict 
if it is useful to be on the band.


Other might have other experiences.

73 Henk PA5KT


Op 6-11-2020 om 21:55 schreef Artek Manuals:

Bill

Last night ON 160 I worked 32 European and SA stations with the 
reported SFI of 88.  earlier in the week with a similar SFI number I 
heard nothing from EU on 160. Conclusion : At these levels SFI is not 
the factor


Conditions on 15 and 12 have been for the last week or so been great . 
Lots of long path on 40 through 15 depending on the time of day & 
band. certainly far better than a year ago at SFI of 68-72 on the 
upper bands, on 160 and 80 hasn't been much of factor so far


DAVE
nr1dx


On 11/6/2020 3:23 PM, Bill Stewart wrote:
Per WWV, the solar flux is at 91. What, if any, affect does this have 
on propagation in HF or other
frequency bandsand of course 160 meters. I have seen these 
geophysical numbers often, but
never really understood what they meant. The flux has been running in 
the high 60s/low 70s until

a few weeks ago when I saw it in the 80s.
Tnx de Bill K4JYS
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
Reflector



_
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Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question

[Henk Remijn PA5KT via Topband]

This one has a larger span and you can see the 27 day periods.

https://www.solen.info/solar/images/swind.png

73 Henk

Op 6-11-2020 om 22:52 schreef Henk Remijn PA5KT via Topband:
My experience is that 160 conditions are also influenced by the solar 
wind.


https://solen.info/solar/indices.html.

This graph shows SFI and solar wind. When solar winds are up to 300 
km/s the conditions are usually good on 160.


This happened in the beginning of october. Conditions in the week 
before the Stew Perry TBDC were good, During the contest it was less.


Due to the rotation of the Sun in approx 27 days you can a bit predict 
if it is useful to be on the band.


Other might have other experiences.

73 Henk PA5KT


Op 6-11-2020 om 21:55 schreef Artek Manuals:

Bill

Last night ON 160 I worked 32 European and SA stations with the 
reported SFI of 88.  earlier in the week with a similar SFI number I 
heard nothing from EU on 160. Conclusion : At these levels SFI is not 
the factor


Conditions on 15 and 12 have been for the last week or so been great 
. Lots of long path on 40 through 15 depending on the time of day & 
band. certainly far better than a year ago at SFI of 68-72 on the 
upper bands, on 160 and 80 hasn't been much of factor so far


DAVE
nr1dx


On 11/6/2020 3:23 PM, Bill Stewart wrote:
Per WWV, the solar flux is at 91. What, if any, affect does this 
have on propagation in HF or other
frequency bandsand of course 160 meters. I have seen these 
geophysical numbers often, but
never really understood what they meant. The flux has been running 
in the high 60s/low 70s until

a few weeks ago when I saw it in the 80s.
Tnx de Bill K4JYS
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
Reflector



_
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Reflector

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Topband: Radial wire

[cqtestk4xs--- via Topband]

"For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is
nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire.  And
Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires."
I agree.  I recently picked up a 5000 ft roll of insulated 20AWG for a little 
over $100 shipped.  Plenty enough to run 30 radials.
I too woul dlike to know if you can cross insulated wires without soldering.  
Planning on puttin up a 4 square for 80 at my new station in V31 and if you 
don't have to solder them it would be a great.
Bill K4XS/KH7XS/V31XX
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Re: Topband: Radial wire

[Artek Manuals]

 Bill

Arcing is probably not an issue at least for the 1st couple of years. I 
guess at some point 10 years down the road and your bargain wire is 
likely not UV resistant rated (?) Over time it will weather and crack ., 
running 1.5KW on FT8 you run the risk of setting the grass or leaf 
litter on fire eventually 8^)


At the 100W level your at now not much risk of arcing IMO.

Dave
NR1DX

On 11/6/2020 4:55 PM, cqtestk4xs--- via Topband wrote:

"For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is
nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire.  And
Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires."
I agree.  I recently picked up a 5000 ft roll of insulated 20AWG for a little 
over $100 shipped.  Plenty enough to run 30 radials.
I too woul dlike to know if you can cross insulated wires without soldering.  
Planning on puttin up a 4 square for 80 at my new station in V31 and if you 
don't have to solder them it would be a great.
Bill K4XS/KH7XS/V31XX
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Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

[Artek Manuals]

Among other things they will and can arc if very close or even 
intermittently touching. if they are not bonded the currents and 
voltages on each wire may be different enough to arc then you get 
interesting things going on especially at high power,. I had a related 
experience where I had radial wires stapled on a wooden fence. At one 
point two of the wires crossed each other, during a high power 
transmission the two arced repeatedly and set the fence on fire. Luckily 
the window of the shack faced the back yard and I saw it early on and 
went out an put the fire out and resolved the cause


Dave

NR1DX

On 11/6/2020 4:27 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:



On 11/6/2020 1:10 PM, Carl Clawson wrote:

Frank,

“Must” is a strong word. What goes wrong if you cross them?

73, Carl WS7L



Also, if insulated wires are used for radials that cross
over each other, is that to be treated differently than bare
metal wires that cross over each other and touch
so as to have electrical connectivity?

Does it matter if cross over radials are soldered at the
crossovers, so as to prevent parasitic "diodes".

For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is
nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire.  And
Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires.

Rick N6RK
_
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
Reflector


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Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

[donovanf]

Hi Carl, 


If the insulation breaks down they will arc, potentially causing a fire 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

On 11/6/2020 4:27 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: 
> 
> 
> On 11/6/2020 1:10 PM, Carl Clawson wrote: 
>> Frank, 
>> 
>> “Must” is a strong word. What goes wrong if you cross them? 
>> 
>> 73, Carl WS7L 
>> 
> 
> Also, if insulated wires are used for radials that cross 
> over each other, is that to be treated differently than bare 
> metal wires that cross over each other and touch 
> so as to have electrical connectivity? 
> 
> Does it matter if cross over radials are soldered at the 
> crossovers, so as to prevent parasitic "diodes". 
> 
> For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is 
> nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire. And 
> Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires. 
> 
> Rick N6RK 
> _ 
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
> Reflector 

-- 
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Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question

[donovanf]

Hello Henk, 


Most of the kinetic energy released from solar wind into the Earth's 
magnetosphere and then its ionosphere is in contained in the velocity 
of the solar wind. Much less energy is in the extreme high temperature 
of the solar wind's magnetized charged particles and in its embedded 
interplanetary magnetic field. 


Fortunately the Earth's magnetic field shields the magnetosphere and 
ionosphere from vast majority of the solar wind's kinetic energy 
unless the Bz component of interplanetary magnetic field vector is 
oriented southward, opposite to the Earth's magnetic field. 


The worst case combination of conditions for disturbed propagation is 
500 km/second or greater solar wind velocity and southward oriented 
IMF with magnetic field intensity greater than 10 nanoTeslas. 


This web site proves a basic explanation of the relationships between disturbed 
propagation conditions and the solar wind's speed, density, and the magnetic 
field orientation of the its embedded interplanetary magnetic field. 


www.sws.bom.gov.au/Solar/1/4 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Henk Remijn PA5KT via Topband"  
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 9:54:51 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question 

This one has a larger span and you can see the 27 day periods. 

https://www.solen.info/solar/images/swind.png 

73 Henk 

Op 6-11-2020 om 22:52 schreef Henk Remijn PA5KT via Topband: 
> My experience is that 160 conditions are also influenced by the solar 
> wind. 
> 
> https://solen.info/solar/indices.html. 
> 
> This graph shows SFI and solar wind. When solar winds are up to 300 
> km/s the conditions are usually good on 160. 
> 
> This happened in the beginning of october. Conditions in the week 
> before the Stew Perry TBDC were good, During the contest it was less. 
> 
> Due to the rotation of the Sun in approx 27 days you can a bit predict 
> if it is useful to be on the band. 
> 
> Other might have other experiences. 
> 
> 73 Henk PA5KT 
> 
> 
> Op 6-11-2020 om 21:55 schreef Artek Manuals: 
>> Bill 
>> 
>> Last night ON 160 I worked 32 European and SA stations with the 
>> reported SFI of 88. earlier in the week with a similar SFI number I 
>> heard nothing from EU on 160. Conclusion : At these levels SFI is not 
>> the factor 
>> 
>> Conditions on 15 and 12 have been for the last week or so been great 
>> . Lots of long path on 40 through 15 depending on the time of day & 
>> band. certainly far better than a year ago at SFI of 68-72 on the 
>> upper bands, on 160 and 80 hasn't been much of factor so far 
>> 
>> DAVE 
>> nr1dx 
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/6/2020 3:23 PM, Bill Stewart wrote: 
>>> Per WWV, the solar flux is at 91. What, if any, affect does this 
>>> have on propagation in HF or other 
>>> frequency bandsand of course 160 meters. I have seen these 
>>> geophysical numbers often, but 
>>> never really understood what they meant. The flux has been running 
>>> in the high 60s/low 70s until 
>>> a few weeks ago when I saw it in the 80s. 
>>> Tnx de Bill K4JYS 
>>> _ 
>>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
>>> Reflector 
>> 
> _ 
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
> Reflector 
_ 
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Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question

[Arthur Delibert]

Thanks.  Very helpful.  One question:  The attachment says:  "The coloured dot 
within the black square, is an indicator of solar wind density, and is yellow 
when density exceeds 10 particles per cubic cm, red when density exceeds 15 
particles per cubic cm, otherwise green."  It wasn't clear to me whether the 
solar wind density has any significance for propagation.  Do you know?

My observation of NOAA data has been that when solar wind speed is down, 
particle density increases and vice-versa.  So I don't see how a decline in 
solar wind speed, accompanied by a proportionate increase in particle density, 
would necessarily lead to a decrease of disturbances, since kinetic energy 
would remain the same (although momentum would decrease).  Maybe the increase 
in density isn't actually proportional to the decrease in wind speed?

Thanks.
KB3FJO


From: Topband  on behalf of 
donov...@erols.com 
Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 5:58 PM
To: topband@contesting.com 
Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question

Hello Henk,


Most of the kinetic energy released from solar wind into the Earth's
magnetosphere and then its ionosphere is in contained in the velocity
of the solar wind. Much less energy is in the extreme high temperature
of the solar wind's magnetized charged particles and in its embedded
interplanetary magnetic field.


Fortunately the Earth's magnetic field shields the magnetosphere and
ionosphere from vast majority of the solar wind's kinetic energy
unless the Bz component of interplanetary magnetic field vector is
oriented southward, opposite to the Earth's magnetic field.


The worst case combination of conditions for disturbed propagation is
500 km/second or greater solar wind velocity and southward oriented
IMF with magnetic field intensity greater than 10 nanoTeslas.


This web site proves a basic explanation of the relationships between disturbed
propagation conditions and the solar wind's speed, density, and the magnetic
field orientation of the its embedded interplanetary magnetic field.


www.sws.bom.gov.au/Solar/1/4


73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: "Henk Remijn PA5KT via Topband" 
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 9:54:51 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question

This one has a larger span and you can see the 27 day periods.

https://www.solen.info/solar/images/swind.png

73 Henk

Op 6-11-2020 om 22:52 schreef Henk Remijn PA5KT via Topband:
> My experience is that 160 conditions are also influenced by the solar
> wind.
>
> https://solen.info/solar/indices.html.
>
> This graph shows SFI and solar wind. When solar winds are up to 300
> km/s the conditions are usually good on 160.
>
> This happened in the beginning of october. Conditions in the week
> before the Stew Perry TBDC were good, During the contest it was less.
>
> Due to the rotation of the Sun in approx 27 days you can a bit predict
> if it is useful to be on the band.
>
> Other might have other experiences.
>
> 73 Henk PA5KT
>
>
> Op 6-11-2020 om 21:55 schreef Artek Manuals:
>> Bill
>>
>> Last night ON 160 I worked 32 European and SA stations with the
>> reported SFI of 88. earlier in the week with a similar SFI number I
>> heard nothing from EU on 160. Conclusion : At these levels SFI is not
>> the factor
>>
>> Conditions on 15 and 12 have been for the last week or so been great
>> . Lots of long path on 40 through 15 depending on the time of day &
>> band. certainly far better than a year ago at SFI of 68-72 on the
>> upper bands, on 160 and 80 hasn't been much of factor so far
>>
>> DAVE
>> nr1dx
>>
>>
>> On 11/6/2020 3:23 PM, Bill Stewart wrote:
>>> Per WWV, the solar flux is at 91. What, if any, affect does this
>>> have on propagation in HF or other
>>> frequency bandsand of course 160 meters. I have seen these
>>> geophysical numbers often, but
>>> never really understood what they meant. The flux has been running
>>> in the high 60s/low 70s until
>>> a few weeks ago when I saw it in the 80s.
>>> Tnx de Bill K4JYS
>>> _
>>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>>> Reflector
>>
> _
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
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Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

[Wes]

With all due respect, I must ask, how many megawatts are you guys running?

Wes  N7WS


On 11/6/2020 3:26 PM, donov...@erols.com wrote:

Hi Carl,


If the insulation breaks down they will arc, potentially causing a fire


73
Frank
W3LPL

On 11/6/2020 4:27 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

On 11/6/2020 1:10 PM, Carl Clawson wrote:

Frank,

“Must” is a strong word. What goes wrong if you cross them?

73, Carl WS7L


Also, if insulated wires are used for radials that cross
over each other, is that to be treated differently than bare
metal wires that cross over each other and touch
so as to have electrical connectivity?

Does it matter if cross over radials are soldered at the
crossovers, so as to prevent parasitic "diodes".

For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is
nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire. And
Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires.

Rick N6RK
_
Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband  - Topband
Reflector



_
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Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

[donovanf]

Always beware of any communication that begins "with all due respect" 

- Original Message -

From: "Wes"  
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Saturday, November 7, 2020 4:49:23 AM 
Subject: Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections 

With all due respect, I must ask, how many megawatts are you guys running? 

Wes N7WS 


On 11/6/2020 3:26 PM, donov...@erols.com wrote: 
> Hi Carl, 
> 
> 
> If the insulation breaks down they will arc, potentially causing a fire 
> 
> 
> 73 
> Frank 
> W3LPL 
> 
> On 11/6/2020 4:27 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: 
>> On 11/6/2020 1:10 PM, Carl Clawson wrote: 
>>> Frank, 
>>> 
>>> “Must” is a strong word. What goes wrong if you cross them? 
>>> 
>>> 73, Carl WS7L 
>>> 
>> Also, if insulated wires are used for radials that cross 
>> over each other, is that to be treated differently than bare 
>> metal wires that cross over each other and touch 
>> so as to have electrical connectivity? 
>> 
>> Does it matter if cross over radials are soldered at the 
>> crossovers, so as to prevent parasitic "diodes". 
>> 
>> For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is 
>> nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire. And 
>> Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires. 
>> 
>> Rick N6RK 
>> _ 
>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
>> Reflector 


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Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question

[donovanf]

Hi Bill, 


Both the solar flux index and the sunspot number are proxy measures 
of ionizing extreme ultraviolet radiation, the 10 nm wavelength of 
UV radiation that ionizes the E and F layers of the ionosphere. 


Solar flux index on the 90s mostly affects the higher frequency 
bands, improving 17 and 15 meter propagation during the day and 
the 40, 30 and 20 meter propagation at night. 


In a few years the solar flux index will begin to persist in the 100s. 
This negatively affects 160 meter propagation because of lingering 
E layer ionization during the evening and early night time hours. Lingering 
E layer ionization blankets and absorbs low angle 160 meter propagation 
via the F layer, resulting in significantly weaker and less reliable 
160 meter DX propagation. 


Higher solar flux numbers will also be accompanied by more frequent 
solar flares and coronal mass ejections and much less frequent 
coronal hole high speed streams, both of which disturb propagation 
on all MF and HF bands through increased absorption. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 



- Original Message -

From: "Bill Stewart"  
To: "topband"  
Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 8:23:53 PM 
Subject: Topband: Solar Flux Question 

Per WWV, the solar flux is at 91. What, if any, affect does this have on 
propagation in HF or other 
frequency bandsand of course 160 meters. I have seen these geophysical 
numbers often, but 
never really understood what they meant. The flux has been running in the high 
60s/low 70s until 
a few weeks ago when I saw it in the 80s. 
Tnx de Bill K4JYS 
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Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

[Jeff Blaine]

I of course defer to Frank's expertise here.  But after thinking about 
this for a couple of hours, I'm trying to wrap my head around this arc 
risk concept as well.  It's interesting and I toss this comment out 
because my two sets of 4sq don't have a single cross-bonded wire 
anywhere - all the ground structure is ground mounted, with overlapping 
wires literally all over the place.  And despite that, the do seem to 
work more or less OK, as far as I can tell.


I guess my thinking is list this...  All those radial wires are laying 
out on the ground.  So they are at least connected at some point, at a 
DC level, assuming your talking about something conventional like a 4SQ.


Of course, we are talking about AC here, so I will agree that maybe the 
conditions could exist where - with just the right configuration between 
the two radials - that some larger than expected voltage differential 
may be present.  Given how low Q a 4SQ is, how current is split between 
multiple elements, my gut feeling is that the excitation voltages are 
pretty mild even if you have your 1500W source right there at the 4SQ 
input.


And on top of that, the wires are laying on the ground, right? The 
radials are in more or less intimate contact with the ground, so I would 
expect there to exist leakage resistance between adjacent conductors (if 
they are bare).  And if they are perfectly insulated, this being AC, 
that means there is going to be some amount of cap coupling between 
adjacent wires and to the ground. With all of that R&C spread out all 
over the field, I would certainly think this conspires to work against 
the probability that any two optimally aligned individual crossing 
conductors would provide a condition sufficient to support an arc, and 
that if so, it would survive long enough to cause a fire.


It's very very very dry here in the summer and again in the winter.  So 
fire risk is something we keep a real close eye on. Then again, out here 
in the Midwest some of us do a lot of IL-advised things because they 
seem to work and of course because laziness is a BIG part of the 
calculation.  ha ha.  Maybe we have been taking a walk on the wild side 
without realizing it.  Hope not because I sure don't want to go try to 
rectify this poor decision 3 years post installation!  Say it ain't so!


73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com


On 11/6/20 10:59 PM, donov...@erols.com wrote:

Always beware of any communication that begins "with all due respect"

- Original Message -

From: "Wes" 
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Saturday, November 7, 2020 4:49:23 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

With all due respect, I must ask, how many megawatts are you guys running?

Wes N7WS


On 11/6/2020 3:26 PM, donov...@erols.com wrote:

Hi Carl,


If the insulation breaks down they will arc, potentially causing a fire


73
Frank
W3LPL

On 11/6/2020 4:27 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

On 11/6/2020 1:10 PM, Carl Clawson wrote:

Frank,

“Must” is a strong word. What goes wrong if you cross them?

73, Carl WS7L


Also, if insulated wires are used for radials that cross
over each other, is that to be treated differently than bare
metal wires that cross over each other and touch
so as to have electrical connectivity?

Does it matter if cross over radials are soldered at the
crossovers, so as to prevent parasitic "diodes".

For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is
nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire. And
Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires.

Rick N6RK
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Reflector


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Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question

[donovanf]

Hi Arthur, 



Persistent high speed solar wind speed contains significantly more 
kinetic energy than transient high density solar wind. 


High density solar wind is a transient event of solar wind origin often 
occurring during the rising phase of the solar cycle as fast coronal 
mass ejections interact with the much slower background solar wind , 
causing compression regions in the solar wind. 


Low density solar wind is a more persistent event of solar origin, 
typically caused by coronal hole high speed streams during the declining 
and solar minimum phases of the solar cycle. Low density solar wind 
can recur during one or more 27 day solar rotations and can 
have persistent extremely low density during solar minimum. 


Solar flares, coronal mass ejections and persistent southward oriented 
interplanetary magnetic field (IMF) often cause moderately to severely 
degraded propagation while transient high density solar wind usually 
causes only unsettled to active geomagnetic disturbances unless it 
coincides with persistent southward oriented IMF. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 





- Original Message -

From: "Arthur Delibert"  
To: donov...@erols.com, topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Saturday, November 7, 2020 2:31:36 AM 
Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question 


Thanks. Very helpful. One question: The attachment says: " The coloured dot 
within the black square, is an indicator of solar wind density, and is yellow 
when density exceeds 10 particles per cubic cm, red when density exceeds 15 
particles per cubic cm, otherwise green." It wasn't clear to me whether the 
solar wind density has any significance for propagation. Do you know? 


My observation of NOAA data has been that when solar wind speed is down, 
particle density increases and vice-versa. So I don't see how a decline in 
solar wind speed, accompanied by a proportionate increase in particle density, 
would necessarily lead to a decrease of disturbances, since kinetic energy 
would remain the same (although momentum would decrease). Maybe the increase in 
density isn't actually proportional to the decrease in wind speed? 


Thanks. 
KB3FJO 





From: Topband  on behalf of 
donov...@erols.com  
Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 5:58 PM 
To: topband@contesting.com  
Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question 


Hello Henk, 


Most of the kinetic energy released from solar wind into the Earth's 
magnetosphere and then its ionosphere is in contained in the velocity 
of the solar wind. Much less energy is in the extreme high temperature 
of the solar wind's magnetized charged particles and in its embedded 
interplanetary magnetic field. 


Fortunately the Earth's magnetic field shields the magnetosphere and 
ionosphere from vast majority of the solar wind's kinetic energy 
unless the Bz component of interplanetary magnetic field vector is 
oriented southward, opposite to the Earth's magnetic field. 


The worst case combination of conditions for disturbed propagation is 
500 km/second or greater solar wind velocity and southward oriented 
IMF with magnetic field intensity greater than 10 nanoTeslas. 


This web site proves a basic explanation of the relationships between disturbed 
propagation conditions and the solar wind's speed, density, and the magnetic 
field orientation of the its embedded interplanetary magnetic field. 


www.sws.bom.gov.au/Solar/1/4 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message - 

From: "Henk Remijn PA5KT via Topband"  
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Friday, November 6, 2020 9:54:51 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flux Question 

This one has a larger span and you can see the 27 day periods. 

https://www.solen.info/solar/images/swind.png 

73 Henk 

Op 6-11-2020 om 22:52 schreef Henk Remijn PA5KT via Topband: 
> My experience is that 160 conditions are also influenced by the solar 
> wind. 
> 
> https://solen.info/solar/indices.html . 
> 
> This graph shows SFI and solar wind. When solar winds are up to 300 
> km/s the conditions are usually good on 160. 
> 
> This happened in the beginning of october. Conditions in the week 
> before the Stew Perry TBDC were good, During the contest it was less. 
> 
> Due to the rotation of the Sun in approx 27 days you can a bit predict 
> if it is useful to be on the band. 
> 
> Other might have other experiences. 
> 
> 73 Henk PA5KT 
> 
> 
> Op 6-11-2020 om 21:55 schreef Artek Manuals: 
>> Bill 
>> 
>> Last night ON 160 I worked 32 European and SA stations with the 
>> reported SFI of 88. earlier in the week with a similar SFI number I 
>> heard nothing from EU on 160. Conclusion : At these levels SFI is not 
>> the factor 
>> 
>> Conditions on 15 and 12 have been for the last week or so been great 
>> . Lots of long path on 40 through 15 depending on the time of day & 
>> band. certainly far better than a year ago at SFI of 68-72 on the 
>> upper bands, on 160 and 80 hasn't been much of factor so far 
>> 
>> DAVE 
>> nr1dx 
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/6/2020 3:23 PM, Bill Stewart wrot

Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

[donovanf]

Hi Jeff, 


Micro arcing can be excited by just a few volts of RF. While micro arcing 
probably is n't a fire risk, micro arcing radiates low level phase noise 
on transmitted signals. This is can cause a serious interference 
problem to nearby receivers such as neighboring hams or co-located 
receivers such an in-band receiver in a contest station. 


I personally experienced these problems with megawatt transmitters. 
In one instance, a massive radial system for a one mile long of array of 
HF phased verticals had to be completely replaced because it generated an 
elevated noise floor that degraded the performance of the HF over the 
horizon radar. In another case a poorly engineered, badly installed and 
inadequately maintained radial system for a 500 kw VLF system caused 
severe television interference to neighbors that forced premature site closure. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "Jeff Blaine"  
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Saturday, November 7, 2020 5:43:25 AM 
Subject: Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections 

I of course defer to Frank's expertise here. But after thinking about 
this for a couple of hours, I'm trying to wrap my head around this arc 
risk concept as well. It's interesting and I toss this comment out 
because my two sets of 4sq don't have a single cross-bonded wire 
anywhere - all the ground structure is ground mounted, with overlapping 
wires literally all over the place. And despite that, the do seem to 
work more or less OK, as far as I can tell. 

I guess my thinking is list this... All those radial wires are laying 
out on the ground. So they are at least connected at some point, at a 
DC level, assuming your talking about something conventional like a 4SQ. 

Of course, we are talking about AC here, so I will agree that maybe the 
conditions could exist where - with just the right configuration between 
the two radials - that some larger than expected voltage differential 
may be present. Given how low Q a 4SQ is, how current is split between 
multiple elements, my gut feeling is that the excitation voltages are 
pretty mild even if you have your 1500W source right there at the 4SQ 
input. 

And on top of that, the wires are laying on the ground, right? The 
radials are in more or less intimate contact with the ground, so I would 
expect there to exist leakage resistance between adjacent conductors (if 
they are bare). And if they are perfectly insulated, this being AC, 
that means there is going to be some amount of cap coupling between 
adjacent wires and to the ground. With all of that R&C spread out all 
over the field, I would certainly think this conspires to work against 
the probability that any two optimally aligned individual crossing 
conductors would provide a condition sufficient to support an arc, and 
that if so, it would survive long enough to cause a fire. 

It's very very very dry here in the summer and again in the winter. So 
fire risk is something we keep a real close eye on. Then again, out here 
in the Midwest some of us do a lot of IL-advised things because they 
seem to work and of course because laziness is a BIG part of the 
calculation. ha ha. Maybe we have been taking a walk on the wild side 
without realizing it. Hope not because I sure don't want to go try to 
rectify this poor decision 3 years post installation! Say it ain't so! 

73/jeff/ac0c 
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie 
www.ac0c.com 


On 11/6/20 10:59 PM, donov...@erols.com wrote: 
> Always beware of any communication that begins "with all due respect" 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> From: "Wes"  
> To: topband@contesting.com 
> Sent: Saturday, November 7, 2020 4:49:23 AM 
> Subject: Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections 
> 
> With all due respect, I must ask, how many megawatts are you guys running? 
> 
> Wes N7WS 
> 
> 
> On 11/6/2020 3:26 PM, donov...@erols.com wrote: 
>> Hi Carl, 
>> 
>> 
>> If the insulation breaks down they will arc, potentially causing a fire 
>> 
>> 
>> 73 
>> Frank 
>> W3LPL 
>> 
>> On 11/6/2020 4:27 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: 
>>> On 11/6/2020 1:10 PM, Carl Clawson wrote: 
 Frank, 
 
 “Must” is a strong word. What goes wrong if you cross them? 
 
 73, Carl WS7L 
 
>>> Also, if insulated wires are used for radials that cross 
>>> over each other, is that to be treated differently than bare 
>>> metal wires that cross over each other and touch 
>>> so as to have electrical connectivity? 
>>> 
>>> Does it matter if cross over radials are soldered at the 
>>> crossovers, so as to prevent parasitic "diodes". 
>>> 
>>> For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is 
>>> nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire. And 
>>> Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires. 
>>> 
>>> Rick N6RK 
>>> _ 
>>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband 
>>> Reflector 
> 
> _ 
> Searchable Archives: http://

Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

[Jeff Blaine]

Wow, that's amazing.

I suppose the risk of micro arcing then specifically with insulated 
radials has got to be closer to zero - at least until the insulation 
breakdown was sufficient to facilitate the arcing. If that's a 
reasonable guess, then maybe guys like me - who are from the start not 
going to cross connect - would have some benefit from the use of 
insulated wire in that it would side step this issue for the most part?


In any event, when I do get around to building my personal MW station - 
needed in anticipation of the zombie apocalypse - for THAT set of 
radials, I will definitely plan on doing the cross connect work!


73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com


On 11/7/20 12:39 AM, donov...@erols.com wrote:

Hi Jeff,


Micro arcing can be excited by just a few volts of RF. While micro arcing
probably is n't a fire risk, micro arcing radiates low level phase noise
on transmitted signals. This is can cause a serious interference
problem to nearby receivers such as neighboring hams or co-located
receivers such an in-band receiver in a contest station.


I personally experienced these problems with megawatt transmitters.
In one instance, a massive radial system for a one mile long of array of
HF phased verticals had to be completely replaced because it generated an
elevated noise floor that degraded the performance of the HF over the
horizon radar. In another case a poorly engineered, badly installed and
inadequately maintained radial system for a 500 kw VLF system caused
severe television interference to neighbors that forced premature site closure.


73
Frank
W3LPL

- Original Message -

From: "Jeff Blaine" 
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Saturday, November 7, 2020 5:43:25 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

I of course defer to Frank's expertise here. But after thinking about
this for a couple of hours, I'm trying to wrap my head around this arc
risk concept as well. It's interesting and I toss this comment out
because my two sets of 4sq don't have a single cross-bonded wire
anywhere - all the ground structure is ground mounted, with overlapping
wires literally all over the place. And despite that, the do seem to
work more or less OK, as far as I can tell.

I guess my thinking is list this... All those radial wires are laying
out on the ground. So they are at least connected at some point, at a
DC level, assuming your talking about something conventional like a 4SQ.

Of course, we are talking about AC here, so I will agree that maybe the
conditions could exist where - with just the right configuration between
the two radials - that some larger than expected voltage differential
may be present. Given how low Q a 4SQ is, how current is split between
multiple elements, my gut feeling is that the excitation voltages are
pretty mild even if you have your 1500W source right there at the 4SQ
input.

And on top of that, the wires are laying on the ground, right? The
radials are in more or less intimate contact with the ground, so I would
expect there to exist leakage resistance between adjacent conductors (if
they are bare). And if they are perfectly insulated, this being AC,
that means there is going to be some amount of cap coupling between
adjacent wires and to the ground. With all of that R&C spread out all
over the field, I would certainly think this conspires to work against
the probability that any two optimally aligned individual crossing
conductors would provide a condition sufficient to support an arc, and
that if so, it would survive long enough to cause a fire.

It's very very very dry here in the summer and again in the winter. So
fire risk is something we keep a real close eye on. Then again, out here
in the Midwest some of us do a lot of IL-advised things because they
seem to work and of course because laziness is a BIG part of the
calculation. ha ha. Maybe we have been taking a walk on the wild side
without realizing it. Hope not because I sure don't want to go try to
rectify this poor decision 3 years post installation! Say it ain't so!

73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com


On 11/6/20 10:59 PM, donov...@erols.com wrote:

Always beware of any communication that begins "with all due respect"

- Original Message -

From: "Wes" 
To: topband@contesting.com
Sent: Saturday, November 7, 2020 4:49:23 AM
Subject: Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

With all due respect, I must ask, how many megawatts are you guys running?

Wes N7WS


On 11/6/2020 3:26 PM, donov...@erols.com wrote:

Hi Carl,


If the insulation breaks down they will arc, potentially causing a fire


73
Frank
W3LPL

On 11/6/2020 4:27 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:

On 11/6/2020 1:10 PM, Carl Clawson wrote:

Frank,

“Must” is a strong word. What goes wrong if you cross them?

73, Carl WS7L


Also, if insulated wires are used for radials that cross
over each other, is that to be treated differently than bare
metal wires that cross o

Re: Topband: OT - Bonding Radials at Intersections

[Wes]

You save me a lot of writing.  This is my thought experiment.  Just another 
point or two. 1) the more radials there are the lower the current in each.  With 
enough radials, the currents are milliamps, unless you're running the megawatts 
I spoke of earlier.  2) If there are two (or more) verticals, the power divides 
and there is even less current per radial.


Now consider two verticals driven in phase.  The radial currents will also be in 
phase and even if they cross there is no voltage difference between them so 
there is no arc.  You can tie them together if you like but it serves no 
function other than to change the resonant frequency of the shortened radials 
and upset the current distribution.  Yes, they do have a resonant frequency, 
they are after all open ended transmission lines.


Now consider the case where the verticals are driven out of phase.  The radial 
currents are also out of phase and there will a maximum voltage gradient between 
them.  This however, is the DESIRED condition.  Short the ends together and you 
upset the phasing.  I have no idea how significant this is, as I said this is a 
thought experiment not a thesis.


Wes  N7WS



On 11/6/2020 10:43 PM, Jeff Blaine wrote:
I of course defer to Frank's expertise here.  But after thinking about this 
for a couple of hours, I'm trying to wrap my head around this arc risk concept 
as well.  It's interesting and I toss this comment out because my two sets of 
4sq don't have a single cross-bonded wire anywhere - all the ground structure 
is ground mounted, with overlapping wires literally all over the place.  And 
despite that, the do seem to work more or less OK, as far as I can tell.


I guess my thinking is list this...  All those radial wires are laying out on 
the ground.  So they are at least connected at some point, at a DC level, 
assuming your talking about something conventional like a 4SQ.


Of course, we are talking about AC here, so I will agree that maybe the 
conditions could exist where - with just the right configuration between the 
two radials - that some larger than expected voltage differential may be 
present.  Given how low Q a 4SQ is, how current is split between multiple 
elements, my gut feeling is that the excitation voltages are pretty mild even 
if you have your 1500W source right there at the 4SQ input.


And on top of that, the wires are laying on the ground, right? The radials are 
in more or less intimate contact with the ground, so I would expect there to 
exist leakage resistance between adjacent conductors (if they are bare).  And 
if they are perfectly insulated, this being AC, that means there is going to 
be some amount of cap coupling between adjacent wires and to the ground. With 
all of that R&C spread out all over the field, I would certainly think this 
conspires to work against the probability that any two optimally aligned 
individual crossing conductors would provide a condition sufficient to support 
an arc, and that if so, it would survive long enough to cause a fire.


It's very very very dry here in the summer and again in the winter.  So fire 
risk is something we keep a real close eye on. Then again, out here in the 
Midwest some of us do a lot of IL-advised things because they seem to work and 
of course because laziness is a BIG part of the calculation.  ha ha.  Maybe we 
have been taking a walk on the wild side without realizing it.  Hope not 
because I sure don't want to go try to rectify this poor decision 3 years post 
installation!  Say it ain't so!


73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com


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