Re: Topband: Bugs
First licensed in 1964 - novice, only CW with a J-38.. I lusted for the Hallicrafters ha-1 TO keyer but it was beyond my budget as a youth. But in 1968 my friend Paul and I designed and built one of the first electronic keyers using RTL logic- flip flops and gates. It had “dot & dash memory” but was not Iambic… I loved that keyer and used it for many years. Alas, RTL was very short lived, soon replaced by TTL and then CMOS! We never bothered to publish a schematic… I can’t say I regret skipping right over the bug era.:. Maybe that is why I have so little regard or appreciation for so many guys murdering CW with them? My heart is with precise sounding code! I always thought the machine at ARRL HDQ to be my standard! 73, Bruce W8RA > On Jul 6, 2023, at 6:18 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > > On 7/6/2023 12:53 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: >> The reader's digest version is that you can minimize the learning >> curve by using a single action paddle. This largely eliminates iambic >> action (which you won't miss), even if the keyer supposedly supports >> iambic. > > Great advice. Especially with keyers that won't let you turn Iambic off! > > 73, Jim K9YC > _ > Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Solar Flare
Stan K, The simple answer is no. The Beverage wires are too short, have too high a resistance to ground and the induced voltage gradient is too low. Bruce W8RA Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 25, 2017, at 4:31 PM, Stan K wrote: > > If a big solar flare can melt telegraph wires, overload power lines, etc, > might it not be of concern to 160 users that have lng Beverages, and > many have long dipoles too, that just might pick up enough from a huge > solar flare to do some major damage to the antenna or equipment? > > Just my 2Hz worthand it's often not worth even 1Hz. > > 73 > Stan K8LL > NW Ohio, USA > 10-10# 76801 > FP# 3255 > 100WattsAndAWire# 1939 > Propagation is our master . . . but sometimes the master is cruel! > > > On Apr 25, 2017 > > This kind of post does not belong on this reflector. It contributes > nothing to Topband knowledge and only shows flawed logic on the part of its > author. > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Fw: Solar Flare
Sorry Gene, That address does not exist. - Forwarded Message - From: ersmar To: ersmar ; bruce whitney Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:31 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flare Try ers...@ieee.net . Gene Smar AD3F Original message From: ersmar Date: 04/24/2017 1:40 PM (GMT-05:00) To: bruce whitney Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flare Bruce: I'd be interested in the links. Thanks. 73 deGene Smar AD3F _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Fw: Solar Flare
Gene,Your e-mail bounced - it won't accept my address.Bruce W8RA - Forwarded Message - From: ersmar To: bruce whitney Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flare Bruce: I'd be interested in the links. Thanks. 73 deGene Smar AD3F Original message ---- From: bruce whitney via Topband Date: 04/24/2017 1:33 PM (GMT-05:00) To: John / K4WJ ,topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flare I think I can provide a positive contribution... If any TopBander would like to understand what is known about "solar flares" or more appropriately, geomagnetic disturbances (GMD) and how they can effect the reliability of the bulk electric system (Grid), please send me your e-mail address and I will send you a list of important links. There is a substantial effort underway to develop Standards at NERC to harden the grid from the 1 in 100 year event. Some of the Worlds top experts in geophysics and power systems engineering are contributing.73, Bruce W8RA From: John / K4WJ To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 12:52 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flare This kind of post does not belong on this reflector. It contributes nothing to Topband knowledge and only shows flawed logic on the part of its author. 73..de John/K4WJ Yes, I know, my message doesn't contribute to topbander's knowledge but it does voice my opinion of what should and shouldn't be sent to the reflector. > There are always nay-sayers as in recent global warming dialogue. > > Good chance back in the spark transmitter days when someone showed up with a > tube oscillator, he was told that all the experts agree you must have to > have a spark to transmit (;>)) > > We do not need to run with closed minds. > > 73 > > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Solar Flare
I think I can provide a positive contribution... If any TopBander would like to understand what is known about "solar flares" or more appropriately, geomagnetic disturbances (GMD) and how they can effect the reliability of the bulk electric system (Grid), please send me your e-mail address and I will send you a list of important links. There is a substantial effort underway to develop Standards at NERC to harden the grid from the 1 in 100 year event. Some of the Worlds top experts in geophysics and power systems engineering are contributing.73, Bruce W8RA From: John / K4WJ To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 12:52 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Solar Flare This kind of post does not belong on this reflector. It contributes nothing to Topband knowledge and only shows flawed logic on the part of its author. 73..de John/K4WJ Yes, I know, my message doesn't contribute to topbander's knowledge but it does voice my opinion of what should and shouldn't be sent to the reflector. > There are always nay-sayers as in recent global warming dialogue. > > Good chance back in the spark transmitter days when someone showed up with a > tube oscillator, he was told that all the experts agree you must have to > have a spark to transmit (;>)) > > We do not need to run with closed minds. > > 73 > > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Solar Flare
The effects of GMD on power systems are well known by many engineers in our electric utility industry. The recent failures were unrelated. There is no mystery. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2017, at 9:35 PM, Steve wrote: >> The root cause was collision with an ice berg. > > > a well researched TV documentary recently shed brand new light > here...apparently they had a nasty coal fire burning in one of the coal > bunkers from departure up until the day before the iceberg. It severely > warped / weakened one of the walls of the flood compartment walls which > happened to be at the exact spot of the iceberg's contact and subsequent > ripping of the hull. The plate eventually burst and allowed the next several > watertight compartments to flood which made the ship's bow start to tilt. The > documentary concluded that if there had been no fire and plate warpage then > the ship would have stayed afloat. .they should have never departed while the > fire was still burning but after all of the hype and big $$$ involved, > decided to go anyway. The fire info was hushed-up during the official > inquiry, I suspect maybe for insurance purposes... fascinating new light. > > Steve > > > > WEB - "The VE7SL Radio Notebook": http://qsl.net/ve7sl/ > > VE7SL BLOG - "Homebrewing and Operating Adventures From 2200m to Nanowaves": > http://ve7sl.blogspot.ca/ > > "The excitement of learning separates youth from old age. As long as you're > learning you're not old." - Rosalyn S. Yalow > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: 160 meter long openings
Bruce,Thanks, interesting new info on a very complex subject. Every storm is different. Must use caution with observations from limited events.Rules of physics always the same everywhere but every CME comes with its own differing parameters with respect to the particular conditions and orientation of the geomagnetic field over the course of the event. I'm sure, nothing you didn't know very well but I have been working with GMD/GIC recently and couldn't help but comment. No claim to be an expert.Bruce-W8RA From: K1FZ-Bruce To: Topband Sent: Sunday, March 5, 2017 9:08 PM Subject: Topband: 160 meter long openings My observation are that long 160 meter openings take place at the start of auroras then diminish. This may be why. https://thespacereporter.com/2017/03/study-says-solar-storms-remove-electrons-earths-atmosphere/ 73 Brucw-k1fz _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Gamma Match Tower Question
Bill, I sure wish Tom W8JI was still participating on this reflector because he is a true expert on many, many matters including this one. What a loss to all of us! Anyway, it can make a big difference to the performance of a shunt fed tower to have "other" conductors hanging on the outside of it and connected to it in an unplanned way. You should look into the methods used to prevent tower resonance documented in various places including the W8JI website. One of those methods to "choke off" tower currents is to connect a conductor parallel to the tower and connected to it that is designed to become a parallel circuit and thus a very high impedance at that frequency to RF current. Without going into it in more detail, my advice from someone that has operated a very effective omega matched tower on 160m for many years - is to reroute the feed cables and other rotor control and any other conductors inside the tower and make sure they are effectively grounded at the base of the tower. Then I would experiment with your shunt wire length (tap point) and spacing from the tower and check with a VNA for impedance readings that make sense for your matching network. If things don't seem right or you suspect the feed lines up the tower are having any significant effect, - which is unlikely - figure out how to measure current in them and do some bonding to minimize it. I'll send you a short PP I made a few years ago on my shunt tower system - off list. 73, Bruce W8RA Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 9, 2016, at 4:01 PM, Bill Hein wrote: > > I want to get back on Top Band this fall and am planning on Gamma Matching > one of my free standing towers (and plant a few Beverages). > > The tower I'm planning on using is an AN Wireless HD-70 (70 foot tall, wide > base that tapers as it goes up) grounded tower topped with a 15 ft mast and > a Force 12 Magnum 340 620 Yagi, the later should make a nice cap hat. > > My question: I have two hardline coax cables running up the outside of the > tower held in place by Andrew non-conductive clamps. Should I (a) move the > cables inside of the tower, (b) ground the cables at the top of the tower > (they are gounded at the base now), (c) do something else, (d) do both, or > (e) leave it as is. > > I am also planning on grounding all the parasitic elements on the big F12 > dual bander to the boom at the element center. > > 73 > > BIll AA7XT > Glade Park CO > DM59pa > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it - final status
Just a FYI that comes from 40 years in the utility business. A frequent (I want to say most common but don't have any data to prove it) problem is loose split bolt connectors connecting the drop to the meter to the overhead service triplex. There are probably several resons for this - but regardless, many investigators don't even start looking for anything else till those get tightened. On Tue, 11/3/15, Jim Murray via Topband wrote: Subject: Re: Topband: RFI - and lots of it - final status To: "TopBand List" Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2015, 10:06 PM Electricians worked today on the house grounding the entrance panel and checking out all of the wiring. Now, everything is grounded to the panel. They ran a line from the grounding directly to the ham room ground bus, checked all the outlets for any reverse etc.. They talked about putting a separate panel in the ham room but I opted out for now. The interesting part of this is that the strong hash noise I reported earlier is gone. I have no idea why. When I reported the noise to the power company I did mention what I had found on the lines and It is possible the linemen stopped by when we were not here and did something, don't know at this time but have not heard back from the power company.The only other possibility is that one of the things the electricians messed with stopped the noise. I suppose it could be something as simple as tightening the wiring in the box etc.. Cost was $380. but worth the peace of mind and possibly saved my operating.Regards,Jim/k2hn _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: ADC Overload from MW transmitters
This has been an interesting discussion. I heard a rumor that a very prominent and successfully competent multi-multi contester in IL was going to an all SDR multiple computer control set-up. Which would seem to be problematic in light of this discussion? Anyone else hear this? Bruce W8RA On Mon, 10/19/15, Tom W8JI wrote: Subject: Re: Topband: ADC Overload from MW transmitters To: topband@contesting.com Date: Monday, October 19, 2015, 10:58 AM I think the problem here is some people read this as a SDR radios never overload, or are superior in every case. Apparently one person thought they were junk because multiple modest strength signals would add up to overload them, and that triggered the response that was misinterpreted to mean they never overload under any condition or were always superior to roofing filtered systems common in standard receivers. In the case I had here, a *single* transmitter totally wiped the SDR out. The overload was nothing like the desense or noise in a traditional receiver. It just was totally useless. It was useless at any signal spacing, because it had no front end selectivity at all that would reduce levels. For my application, it was useless. It was far worse than a K3, which a few kHz spacing would duplex on most antenna combinations. When the K3 (or FT1000MP MKV's) did overload, the overload was a desense or composite noise type sound. It would take out noise floor signals worse, be progressively less problem for stronger signals, and never be bothered with any antenna combinations with strong signals. When the SDR overloaded, it was just totally gone for everything, and wider frequency spacing with the local TX made absolutely no difference like it does with a normal receiver. I assume this was from overflowing the ADC, but it was a very dramatic sounding overload. That, coupled with the fact it did not have a traditional knob and panel system and had some transmitter spurs, made it useless here. But that was this setup and this application, where a local 1500 watt transmitter within a few thousand feet of the RX antennas was being used while receiving. This was a single transmitter multi-op, where one TX signal was allowed on the air at a time but two or more operators were making contacts. I still never find any SDR I listened to, even that one without a transmitter running, better than analog detection for my ears on "in-the-noise" signals. 73 Tom - Original Message - From: "Steve Ireland" To: Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 8:07 AM Subject: Re: Topband: ADC Overload from MW transmitters > Hi Jim > > Clearly in a large US city, there is going to be a whole larger degree of > difficulty than here. > > Perth is still pretty much a small city in world terms, with a population > of about 2 million. In addition to the ABC transmitters, we have about > half a dozen other transmitters, but only two of these have signals of any > size – 6PR (10kW) and 6IX (2kW), with the former of these putting in the > largest signal to me, with its transmitter/antenna on the banks of the > Swan River estuary about 15km away. > > When I used my HPSDR, originally I had no filtering in front of the ADC > and had some overload problems on 160m from the local BC stations. > However, a simple Chebyshev HPF got rid of this. Later when I added the > Alex bandpass filters, which are part of the HPSDR design, there was no > longer any need for the HPF. > > The main point, as Phil says in his post, is that the amount of protection > an ADC is going to need will vary widely, depending on factors such as > local AM BC transmitters and how strong they are. In my case, all I had to > do was to use the general coverage facility of the SDR to look at the > medium wave here, see which of the signals were largest and look for a > suitable HPF design accordingly . > > Vy 73 > > Steve, VK6VZ > > > >> That's typical of medium-size cities in the US for high power >> broadcasters, but major cities typically have twice as many. Both large >> and medium-size cities, as well as smaller ones, typically have 6-10 >> stations in the 5kW range, and more in the 1kW range. Chicago is typical >> of a large city (like New York, Boston, Los Angeles, San Francisco) -- it >> has 50kW on 670 kHz, 720 kHz, 780 kHz, 890 kHz, and 1,000 kHz. There's >> also a daytime only station with 50kW on 1160 kHz. Cincinnati is typical >> of smaller cities like Indianapolis, Detroit, Minneapolis, Cleveland, St >> Louis, and New Orleans, with 2-3 50kW stations and many smaller ones. >> Cincinnati 50kW stations are on 700 kHz and 1530 kHz. > > I grew up in a small town in WV, with three 5 kW stations within two miles > on 800 kHz, 930 kHz, and 1470 kHz. > > Bottom line --
Re: Topband: NE7D loaded tower
Here is another data point. SteppIR Monster at the top of a 130ft shunt fed tower full legal limit power from an Acom 2000 on 160m with no problems since 2008. Be sure elements are fully retracted for consistent loading. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 29, 2015, at 4:24 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: >> I can't speak with knowledge on stepper antennas. BUT I can regarding a Hi >> Gain discovery III >> I shunt feed my 105 ft. Rohn 25 with only the 3 element 40 meter beam as >> the top loading. >> >> More then once I burned a loading wire over the years I had that >> configuration. >> >> SO from that experience a complex antenna like SteppIR design I would be >> VARY Leary ! > > I strongly agree with Wayne, here. > > I think shunt feeding a tower with an unmodified SteppIR is like playing > Russian roulette with the element motors and feeds. > > 73 Tom > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Radio-communications page from the SWPC
Has everyone allready seen this new (to me) page from the SWPC? - Very cool... http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/communities/radio-communications _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z
Joel, This will be very interesting when you can report some comparative results on both these good receiving antennas. I am building - what I believe to be a somewhat novel antenna to try this season and hope to get it finished in early January. Maybe someone considering a new receiving array might be interested? The 4NEC2 models indicate that it will have a F/B on 160M of better than 50 dB and an RDF (thanks Tom for this measure) of about 11.9 dB. Its gain is calculated to be in the - 16 dB range. The modeling seems to be pretty robust - meaning that playing with the physical parameters does not dramatically change the calculated performance. In other words, I would be very suspect if a slight change in some input parameter totally destroyed the calculated performance results. I comes by way of some further development of the SAL-30 Array (from Array Solutions) invented by Mark Bauman KB7GF. Larry Gauthier K8UT optimized the dimensions for the 160m band only. I think Mark calls it the "High RDF CC-SAL (optimized for 160m)" array. It is 25 feet high and about 50 feet in diameter. The complete model showing all the algebra for the optimization (and dimensions) is readily available to all on the 'shared apex loop' reflector. I'll let you know what I can about the performance - as soon as I can generate some numbers with my Kay attenuator pads. 73, Bruce W8RA From: Joel Harrison To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 9:42 AM Subject: Re: Topband: 8 circle: DXE vs Hi-Z Just to correct a typo, my HiZ 8 vertical array is spaced 200 ft, no 220 ft. > Greetings Bob & Reflector folks, > > Please allow me to provide a bit of my experience since I run both a broad > side/end fire passive 8 vertical array (350 ft diameter) with a DXE > controller AND a HiZ 8 vertical array spaced for 160 meters (220 ft > diameter). > > To your specific question about controllers both will perform very well > but there are differences in the arrays that need to be considered, so > please allow me a bit of bandwidth here to explain. > > I installed my BSEF array about five years ago when there was practically > no avalable information about the array and no commercially available > controllers. I built the array and a controller and published my work in a > paper on my website that later was published in QEX. > > Since that time, I have gained a great deal of experience with the array > both mechanically and eletrically and as a result of my published work > others have built arrays (w3LPL for one) had have shared their valuable > experience publically as well. As a result, I rebuilt my BSEF 8 vertical > array this year with a different mounting scheme like W3LPL uses and also > moved to a better controller that Mike, W9RE first made boards available > for and now that DX Engineering sells, which I now use for control of the > BSEF array. > > Over this time Lee's HiZ arrays have become quite popular and are > excellent performers. What I have noticed is there is considerable > confusion among the masses about the differences in these arrays and to be > quite blunt many folks equate living in an excellent geographical location > for 160 meters propagation to amazing performance of a specific RX array > which is an error. I am obsessed with 160 meter RX antennas and achieving > peak performance from my rural location in central Arkansas, an area that > is not enhanced by coastal propagation, etc. So I set out last year with a > personal mission to evaluate both 8 vertical array systems, the passive > BSEF array an the HiZ. I am not in the amateur radio business, I'm just a > ham with a desire to have the best 160 meter RX system possible for my > geographical area. > > So, both systems are operational here. There is significant sepeation > between the two arrays (>800 ft) and both are a significant distance from > the transmit antenna. Both have their own level of complexity with > installation and from personal experience I can tell you they each take > about the same amount of time to construct and install. > > I have already recorded several real on the air comparisons of patterns, > noise floors (taking in to account one is active and one is passive)and > several signal comparisons of DX stations (actual signal level about noise > floor, not S meter readings). I plan to publish these results in early > spring at the end of the 160 meter DX season for north america. > > I would be more than pleased to discuss any specific questions you may > have about these arrays off line a bit more in detail if you would like > but again the short answer to your question is both will be excellent > arrays. > > 73 Joel W5ZN > >> I'm new to 160 and am planning to add an 8-circle. I would like to buy >> commercial preamps and the controller. I would greatly appreciate any >> advice on the choice of preamp/controller vendor. >> >> I live in a rural ar
Re: Topband: 50 ohm direct burial coax cable
Again, You might want to compare this cable to the LMR400-DB. It has performed well for me. http://www.davisrf.com/buryflex.php Bruce W8RA From: Tom WA2BCK To: mstang...@comcast.net; topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Topband: 50 ohm direct burial coax cable Mike, I like LMR400-DB. Not only is it direct burial but it is the lowest loss of the RG8 type cables. 73, Tom WA2BCK -Original Message- From: mstang...@comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 10:10 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: 50 ohm direct burial coax cable Does anyone know of a source for 50 ohm "RG-8" type direct burial coax able. I can find many sources for CATV and Satellite 75 ohn cable but not 50 ohm. Direct burial cable is coated with and anti-fungal compound. I''ve had success with 75 ohm cables for receiving and want to purchase 50 ohm direct burial for transmitter feeds. Thanks, Mike N2MS _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: 50 ohm direct burial coax cable
You might want to check out Davis Bury-flex. I have used in in conduit - under water, for several years with no problems. Bruce W8RA From: "mstang...@comcast.net" To: Bill Wichers Cc: topband@contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Topband: 50 ohm direct burial coax cable Bill, Thanks. I will check it out. Mike N2MS - Original Message - From: Bill Wichers To: mstang...@comcast.net, topband@contesting.com Sent: Tue, 03 Jun 2014 14:58:51 - (UTC) Subject: RE: 50 ohm direct burial coax cable Usually "direct burial" cable is just a PE jacket with a flooding compound in the braid. Times Microwave makes a direct burial variant of their LMR-400 called "LMR-400-DB". It adds a flooding compound in the braid. The flooding compound will seal small fractures in the jacket. BTW, for everyone, there is a new "dry" type of water blocking compound used in fiber optic cables that is usually in the form of a powder or a yarn. When it gets wet it expands and seals the damaged cable area. It's lots easier to work with than the more traditional gel-type flooding compounds. Maybe if we're lucky we'll see someone start making coax that way! -Bill _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Not so ood in the contest last night
Joe, I am afraid you are a victim of your own false assumptions. The W1AW/8 Operations on 160 are not at a single station. The SLAARC ops were only on during part of the CQWW160 SSB and were "hearing" pretty well. 939 Q's, 52 SP's, & 19 Countries. Of course, I have never met a 160m op that wouldn't want to hear better. 73, Bruce W8RA Sent from my iPhone On Feb 22, 2014, at 12:06 PM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" wrote: > >> The worst part was I did not hear the South Lyon Group who was >> running W1AW/8 and they are only 10 ish miles away from me. Maybe >> tonight :-) > > Don't worry about them ... they've been an alligator on 160 all > week. Easily copyable through -60 dBm atmospheric noise here in > Florida but not working anything except the strong stations within > 500-600 miles. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > On 2/22/2014 8:41 AM, gold...@charter.net wrote: >> >> I only made 35 contacts last night from my QTH.I did however get 5 >> new states and if those contacts use LOTW I will only need 5 more >> contacts for my WAS on 160m phone. >> >> My antennas are an inverted L and big loop so I dont hear real well. But >> thats my realilty. >> >> The worst part was I did not hear the South Lyon Group who was running >> W1AW/8 and they are only 10 ish miles away from me. Maybe tonight :-) >> >> I am following the converstations on the receive loops and hopefully >> will have time and money to invest in one for a summer project and also >> figure out how to get my inverted L higher before my flat section. >> >> Have fun everyone I know I do. >> >> ~73 >> Don >> KD8NNU >> FH#4107 >> -.- -.. ---.. –. –. ..- >> _ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Shared Apex Loop Array
James, Thank you for your observations and recommendations. I respect and appreciate the wisdom. However, I think I will get up close and personal with the modeling software and see what I can learn. Maybe it is possible to substantially kill more of the high angle response, as the verticals do 'for free.'. 73, Bruce W8RA From: James Wolf To: 'Topband Reflector' Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 5:29 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Shared Apex Loop Array The antenna geometry indicates that it should perform similar to a Waller Flag *under the same conditions*. The Waller flag though, (as Tom has alluded to) has more spacing between the loops and is usually mounted higher in the air. Height above ground is important. Raise your model up to 100 ft. Also, since the currents in the center vertical wires are out of phase, you should be able to eliminate three of those wires. Tie all the wires together at the top and at the bottom, and use just one wire from top to bottom. Jim - KR9U -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Andy Ikin Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 4:12 PM To: bruce whitney; Topband Reflector Subject: Re: Topband: Shared Apex Loop Array Bruce, I have considerable experience with loop arrays; whilst they are good performers in an electrically noisy environment, they suffer from poor directivity at higher angles. This can also be seen with EZNEC models by looking at the AZ Plot with an Elevation angle of say 40 degrees. The directivity and RDF is much better with a pair Phased Flags for example. Other issues, Tom has mentioned a too close element spacing which will lower the array gain. Also there is the issue of array stability i.e. a minor phase or amplitude error will completely screw up the pattern. 73 Andrew G8LUG _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Shared Apex Loop Array
Tom, All of the dimesnions, including the location of the couplers from the center are on the Array Solutions Website in the SAL v 1.9 manual at: http://arraysolutions.com/Products/SAL_shared%20apex%20loop/PDF%20Files/AS-SAL-Manual_R1.9.pdf Mine is the SAL-30 with the 95 foot loop. I would say the mirror dimension is about 1.5 inches, or 3 inches between the vertical wires. My 4 NEC2 model shows 8.64 dB RDF. Thanks for your interest, Bruce W8RA From: Tom W8JI To: bruce whitney ; topband@contesting.com Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Shared Apex Loop Array Regardless, I am not sure if any sort of "descriptive logical explanation" will ever allow me to understand what is going on with this antenna but I am beginning to get comfortable with the modeling. The bigger question to me is; do you think the 4NEC2 model results faithfully represent what is going on with this antenna?>>> What are the dimensions of your antenna? Just one loop will work, if they are identical, and the spacing to the mirror. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Shared Apex Loop Array
Tom, Good to hear you chime in on this topic - I listen very intently when the oracle of Barnesville speaks... I have been trying to learn more about the SAL array from the 4NEC2 models - as it seems to outperform anything else I have to listen with at present. The models show narrower forward directivity from the SAL than a 4-square - which seems to be confirmed by my subjective observations. Can this be explained by the very close spacing of the 'virtual' verticals as well? "Transmission line" mode (in the closely spaced vertical wires of the loops) to me implies equal and opposite currents and yet the antenna performance would seem to be based on currents out of phase - hence the delay line to combine/cancel them for directivity? Regardless, I am not sure if any sort of "descriptive logical explanation" will ever allow me to understand what is going on with this antenna but I am beginning to get comfortable with the modeling. The bigger question to me is; do you think the 4NEC2 model results faithfully represent what is going on with this antenna? I am wondering how an 8 circle array of these SAL antennas - fed 4 at a time in the classical broadside/endfire way, like individual verticals - would perform? (Maybe not use the amplifiers or check that they have identical phase delay?) I think the single support makes something like that mechanically feasible - not much different than top loaded verticals with 4 support wires/guy ropes. Bruce W8RA ________ From: Tom W8JI To: bruce whitney ; Carl Luetzelschwab ; topband@contesting.com Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Shared Apex Loop Array > Is is a two element crossfire vertically polarized array made from loops. > > Personally, if I were going to build one, I would spread the loops apart. I > would make the loop centers as far apart as possible, not to exceed 1/4 > wavelength on the highest band. > Let me expand a bit how it works. Because the SA array has such close spacing, the center vertical element wires cancel. They just vanish from any significant pattern effect. The result of the shared apex is the loops function as two short ground independent verticals that are phased. The axis null in a loop forms because all opposing sides carry 180 degree out-of-phase currents. If we push two small loops together, the vertical center wires carry mostly opposing currents, and go into transmission line mode. They are too close for any useful pattern control, so the loop changes mode. The reason I suggest wider spacing, if I was doing all that electrical hardware, is pushing the loops apart keeps the loop elements in loop mode, so far as pattern is concerned. This will add two nulls through the loop axis. Although the nulls are rather small area, any new null or additional null not in signal direction is a good null. The no free lunch rule is, as usual, in full force. We simplify by using one support and decrease length, and we lose other nice things. We have two short verticals phased, instead of what would be three or four with wider spacing. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Shared Apex Loop Array
Carl, I have used 4 bi-direction 760 foot Beverages for 5 years or so here in Michigan. I put up the AS SAL-30 a month ago and my experience with the has been very favorable. I can't do a direct A to B with the Beverages right now so I must reserve making any bold statements about the comparative performance as yet, but it definitely beats a full size 4-Square on 80M. Modeling indicates that if single band (160M only) performance is desired - it can be optimized even further from the broadband 'tuning' I am using at present. Bruce W8RA From: Carl Luetzelschwab To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Saturday, February 8, 2014 4:12 PM Subject: Topband: Shared Apex Loop Array Terry W7KW, Yesterday I posted a message here about the Shared Apex Loop Array. N3OC's review of it appears in the February PVRC newsletter. My Product Review of it will appear in the April QST. My experience with it has been extremely favorable on 160m, 80m and 40m as I cannot put up multiple long Beverages. Carl K9LA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: NH0Z on Topband
NH0Z called my station W8RA in Michigan, for a good QSO during the contest at 1257 GMT Sunday morning. He had been spotted during the contest pretty much continuously by someone or another but we were not able to hear him before that. When he called we were experiencing a snow squall and the band was very noisy but we were able to copy on our "Shared Apex Loop Array" antenna. My Beverages are all non-op now so I can't proved any information from them for comparison. Bruce W8RA From: George To: Doug Renwick ; topband@contesting.com Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 3:21 PM Subject: Re: Topband: NH0Z on Topband Wish we had a callsign for this sender? No time given, either. Both would help with finding the NH0 on topband. 73 George W8UVZ -Original Message- From: Doug Renwick Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 12:20 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: NH0Z on Topband NH0Z appeared this morning partially covered by a west coast cq er. He wasn't strong but could hear well. Doug "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." - Ben Franklin --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Question
Bob, do it... It can't hurt the 'transmit' performance of your vertical at all and might help. I have done that, as well as connect my radial system to the electrical grounding of the house wiring - at the ground electrode as well. My only concern would be if you intend to use the vertical for receive it could exacerbate any noise problems you may have from the house. You will also find out in a hurry if anything in the house is sensitve to RF Bruce W8RA From: "Chortek, Robert L" To: "topband@contesting.com" Sent: Monday, January 6, 2014 2:51 PM Subject: Topband: Radial Question Hello Fellow Topbanders - We are about to embark on a front yard landscaping project at our home on a tiny 12, 500 sq. ft. lot. It occurred to me this would be an excellent opportunity to put down a large number of buried ground radials BUT, they would only cover about 90 degrees of the compass. Then it also occurred to me I could put down a large number of radials in our crawl space under the house. So, my question is, what is the likely negative impact, if any, from the house being between the 160 meter vertical and the radials placed under the house? I assume the house material, most of which is wood, tile, sheetrock, etc. (with the usual house wiring) would be invisible to RF and have minimal impact. If I could put down say 60 radials ranging in length from 40 to 120 feet long, would it outperform my current system with 8 resonant elevated radials 10 -15 feet high (which cover only about 120 degrees of the compass)? I'm incline to proceed IF it would provide a meaningful improvement in my transmitted signal strength. Thanks for any help! 73, Bob/AA6VB _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Another Spitfire question
How can I tune the parasitic elements (with an analyzer) when supported by a permanently grounded (shunt fed, Omega matched) tower? I read the tuning procedure requiring the tower to be ungrounded? - non resonant, in order to set the length of the parasitics? Also - with Tom's analysis, that the parasitics are actually sloped verticals - by virtue of the horizontal portion ground coupling - wouldn't one be better off stringing multiple (exactly opposite) counterpoise wires? From: Tom W8JI To: Eduardo Araujo ; Topband Sent: Monday, November 4, 2013 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Spitfire question At first I was delighted because I got f/b at ground level of more than 20db across 25 Kc but surprise came when I could not notice any improvement in the front gain switching on/off the elements to medium distances (Brazil) or long distance like Europe where it was pointed to (and same line of Brazil). I measured FS at 300 mts at ground level and I only detect 1db maximun change Reading ON4UN book, It looks like because of its configuration, the main lobe is shifted upward a bit, so I could think that because of that I measured very little at ground level but not noticing any detectable change at Brazil (3000Km) nor Europe (>1Km) it really makes me wonder if it is working at all.> That antenna, with 25 radials on the center element, models to have about 3 dB gain over a single element. That seems good to me for two sloped, close spaced, bent wire elements for director and reflector. You can be sure it is sensitive to exactly how you construct it, and how good your ground below the antenna is. It does not mean we do not have earth loss just because we do not attach a wire to a radial system near earth, so it should be highly influenced by ground losses around each sloped element end. In my model, I used 25 radials 100 feet long on the center element. It had very good F/B ratio, 23 ohms feed impedance, and 3 dB gain. I used normal ground and wire losses. When I look at things, I like to look at something almost perfect and seem if it all seems logical or sensible. I would never expect much more than 3 dB gain because of the wire folding, earth losses, and thin long wires for parasitic elements. After all, we only get 5 dB or so gain over a single element using a Yagi with full size thick elements when it is placed far above earth. A typical, real, four square is really about 4 dB over a single element. Certainly long thin wires near earth that are bent and sloped should not approach that amount, or the amount of a typical Yagi. It would be pretty easy to go from 3 dB gain over a single vertical to 1 dB over a single vertical with any mistakes, and perhaps lose that much just through dimensional changes or earth problems. You are only 2 dB off, it usually does not take much to do that. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Comparison testing
Tom, It is a very well known fact that an antenna erected hastily in harsh conditions always outperforms one erected leisurely -nice warm day, no wind, lots of planning and help, etc.. Every Ham I know - is well aware of this. I can cite example after example - including temporary Field Day antennas erected in rainy windstorms that outperformed much larger home station arrays. In fact, to take advantage of this - I have been waiting and watching the weather reports for the worst, blinding snow storm of the season - to be absolutely sure that my next antenna project will outperform everything else I have at present. Then, you come along and inject all this thinking about objective reasoning, science and engineering into the mix to challenge many of the popular truths - it's just demoralizing... Don't be surprised if there are people that will feel violated or compromised in some way and will lash back. 73, Bruce W8RA --- On Wed, 3/6/13, Tom W8JI wrote: From: Tom W8JI Subject: Topband: Comparison testing To: topband@contesting.com Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2013, 1:25 PM This reminds me of an experience I had with a new antenna. After working several days installing a new antenna, I attached it to an a/b switch to compare it with my old antenna. I was delighted, the new antenna was always better !!! Then to my dismay I saw I had the switch reversed ... oh boy... I changed the feeds, and continued the test. Guess what.. the new antenna was still always better. Lesson learned human nature and switching antennas in face of QSB.>>> There is more truth to that than most of us realize. I put up a G5RV about 100 feet in the air, and I used a pretty good feedline. Doing tests against a dipole on 75 meters, the antenna I called a "G5RV" would almost always get a worse report than the antenna I called a "dipole", even during the times when I called the antennas by the opposite names of what they really were. When I would do a test using "antenna 1" or "antenna 2", they were almost even. The most extraordinary thing was with a good friend who just absolutely hated G5RV antennas. He would say "your audio sounds worse on the "G5RV" " . This was true even when I called the dipole a G5RV, or didn't change antennas at all and just said I was changing. I really think this is why I installed a 300-foot tower just so I could have a high dipole. I "distinctly remembered' how well a 300-foot high dipole I had worked, and I wanted another one. After I installed the dipole here and compared it to a vertical and other antennas for a year or two, I finally remembered how well my old 1/4 wave vertical worked. :) This was eye opening to me. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: New 160M high performance receiving antenna at W3LPL
8 Circle Receiving Arrays.. Appears to me that the general consensus is that for maximum single band performance - the best way to build a receiving BSEF 8 circle is with resonant (passive) vertical elements. The circle diameter is probably best (for single band 160M) about 351 foot diameter (.327 wave radius). My question for this astute reflector is whether there is any reason multiple receivers can't be connected to the array - listening in the same or different directions. Simply by multiple layers of the same RF switch matrix with proper selection/phasing etc. Would a magic T be required from each element into the separate switch matrices? Frank or Tom - are you already doing this? Bruce W8RA --- On Wed, 2/13/13, Tom W8JI wrote: From: Tom W8JI Subject: Re: Topband: New 160M high performance receiving antenna at W3LPL To: "Rudy Bakalov" , topband@contesting.com Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013, 5:53 AM > I have been wondering if the antenna element in phased arrays could be a loop > rather than a vertical. My thinking is that the loop has some level of > directivity so phasing two of them should result in better side lobe > suppression compared to a vertical. Is there any merit to this thought? > Specifically, will I see better RDF numbers if I were to use loop elements in > any of the active 8 and 4 circle systems (e.g., DX Engineering, Hi-Z > Antennas, etc.)? > Hi Rudy, A loop can work in a fixed array, or bi-directional array. My first antenna allowing me to work JA's through LORAN from Ohio was a long array of loops, although these were elongated loops. I also had long end-fire arrays of small inverted delta loops in Cleveland in the 80's, and small active verticals. Small loops do not work well when used in things like four squares or 8 circle arrays. A multiple direction array, like a four square or 8-circle, requires a uniform pattern of uniform phase from each element or cell. With a small loop, phase flips 180-degrees immediately after crossing the null. Also, the directivity is generally poor because the small loop has two very sharp null points though the loop axis, but a broad response everywhere else. Both of these things actually hurt performance of arrays with loops that depend on phasing to eliminate side nulls. Elongated loops are a different story, because (we probably all know) elongated loops are not really loops in function. They are really phased verticals, and the horizontal part or component of the conductors is simply a phasing line. K9AY's, Flags, Pennants, EWE's, and other forms of elongated loops are really all just phased verticals in function. They have a wider null and no sudden phase shift at the null, and no null cone at the side or "loop axis". The best element for a traditional 8-circle or four square will always be a simple vertical, and even in a broadside array we would want to avoid small loops with deep axis nulls. They are OK as cells in an end-fire array, but not particularly advantageous for pattern unless elongated. I used small loops as a matter of "construction convenience" as deltas in a long endfire array, but the deep side null in that array was really created by out-of-phase cells of deltas and not the sharp null pattern of the individual delta. It could have just as well been verticals with no loss of pattern. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Topband: Crowne Plaza reservation?
Does anybody have a reservation at the Dayton Crowne Plaza 5/20&21 - they can let go, please? Thanks! Bruce W8RA Off list to ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: To Topband Contesters ( 1 Day After)
K8OT I guess I will break my code of silence on this issue. I haven't really been at this too long - but you might want to keep in mind that with the extreme conditions of this contest I was running my receive BW down as low as 20 to 100 HZ many times. I would try and widen it up - just to get clobbered and not be able to hear anything but extremely strong signals. I also would wiggle my RIT around a bit - but it is certainly conceivable that somebody responding to a CQ - if not zero beat - could get missed - at least for a few cycles maybe. Bruce W8RA --- On Tue, 2/1/11, gedk...@aol.com wrote: > From: gedk...@aol.com > Subject: Re: Topband: To Topband Contesters ( 1 Day After) > To: oz...@mail.dk, topband@contesting.com > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011, 8:40 PM > YUP those chair sitters I got on > for while. I thought I would pass out a > few points so I was just S&P with 100 wts. because I > have a job here at > home now. and can't put in a lot of hours. > I ran across some of them, I called that were calling > CQ over and over > and didn't answer my call even though I could not hear > anybody else calling > them and I would stand bye when I heard somebody calling > them to see if they > got an answer. nothing!!! I guess they had auto CQ on > and either had to go > potty or maybe for Coffee or did they go to sleep with auto > CQ on. these > are the same ones who worry about rates?? and just have to > hold that Freq at > all costs. Alligators, OH well!! > ED K8OT > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
