Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L
*The inverted L will out perform an inverted vee, hands down, 90% of the time. The few exceptions will probably be near your local SR (and other times) when horizontal polarization can work better. 73. . . Dave, W0FLS* I agree with Dave's comment but in my experience it's more like 99% of the time that my inv-V is better than my 4SQ-like vertical system: http://users.vnet.net/btippett/new_page_10.htm Typically (99%) the vertical array is +10 dB better but on the very rare occasions when high-angle propagation is present, the inverse is true. Yes, +10 dB in favor of the inv-V! It's not even close for those occasions. A clue for when to check for high-angle prop is when my Beverages lose their directivity. 73, Bill W4ZV _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L
Hi Steve, Geomagnetic latitude isn't likely to be an issue in VK6, the geomagnetic equator in your part of the world is about ten degrees north of the geographic equator, it runs through the Phillipines and Viet Nam. Your geomagnetic latitude is about the same as New York city. But very poor ground conductivity could be a big issue for vertically polarized antennas especially at relatively low elevation angles. Conversely, for horizontal polarization the difference between "perfect" ground and very poor ground is only about 2 dB regardless of elevation angle. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Steve Ireland" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 9:22:32 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L Hi Peter (and the reflector) As George AA7JV/C6AGU says: 'It depends on a lot of things: ground characteristics, number of radials, height of radials and the overall height available.' I'd add your geomagnetic latitude (not the same as actual latitude) may also be a factor. Here in south-western Australia, an inverted-V dipole at 90 feet high will usually beat an inverted-L at the same height on 160m. This appears to be because of the very poor ground conductivity in the far field. Mike Bazley VK6HD (SK) was the most experienced 160m DXer in Australia and had around 260 countries confirmed when he passed away some years back. At his last QTH in Albany he built an inverted-L with an 80 to 90 feet vertical section and, painstakingly, over the course of a year, put down a full size ground screen of 132 radials, each of a quarter-wave length long. This antenna enabled him to add about three new countries in Central America (which could not hear him on the Inverted V dipole he also had) but most of the time his inverted V dipole at 90 feet was up to two 'S' points better. After a couple of years, Mike took the inverted-L down because of its mostly poorer DX performance. Now, this kind of result is highly unusual, but just seems to be the way things work in VK6. I suspect that the inverted-L is going to work better for you, but as George says, 'there is only one way to tell: try it'. Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ (inverted-U dipole at 60 feet - wire goes 66 feet up, 132 foot along, 66 foot down ) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:02:26 -0400 From: GEORGE WALLNER To: Subject: Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Peter, It depends on a lot of things: ground characteristics, number of radials, height of radials and the overall height available. Generally, over average-to-good ground and with 32 or more radials, the inverted L will perform better for DX at anything up 100', most of the time. If you can put an inverted V higher than 100', you may get a better antenna, especially if your QTH is over poor soil and you have only a few radials. Really, there is only one way to tell: Try it. Ultimately, having both will give you the best performance. I know this is not very helpful, but ... 73, George, AA7JV/C6AGU -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L
Hi Peter (and the reflector) As George AA7JV/C6AGU says: 'It depends on a lot of things: ground characteristics, number of radials, height of radials and the overall height available.' I'd add your geomagnetic latitude (not the same as actual latitude) may also be a factor. Here in south-western Australia, an inverted-V dipole at 90 feet high will usually beat an inverted-L at the same height on 160m. This appears to be because of the very poor ground conductivity in the far field. Mike Bazley VK6HD (SK) was the most experienced 160m DXer in Australia and had around 260 countries confirmed when he passed away some years back. At his last QTH in Albany he built an inverted-L with an 80 to 90 feet vertical section and, painstakingly, over the course of a year, put down a full size ground screen of 132 radials, each of a quarter-wave length long. This antenna enabled him to add about three new countries in Central America (which could not hear him on the Inverted V dipole he also had) but most of the time his inverted V dipole at 90 feet was up to two 'S' points better. After a couple of years, Mike took the inverted-L down because of its mostly poorer DX performance. Now, this kind of result is highly unusual, but just seems to be the way things work in VK6. I suspect that the inverted-L is going to work better for you, but as George says, 'there is only one way to tell: try it'. Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ (inverted-U dipole at 60 feet - wire goes 66 feet up, 132 foot along, 66 foot down ) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:02:26 -0400 From: GEORGE WALLNER To: Subject: Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Peter, It depends on a lot of things: ground characteristics, number of radials, height of radials and the overall height available. Generally, over average-to-good ground and with 32 or more radials, the inverted L will perform better for DX at anything up 100', most of the time. If you can put an inverted V higher than 100', you may get a better antenna, especially if your QTH is over poor soil and you have only a few radials. Really, there is only one way to tell: Try it. Ultimately, having both will give you the best performance. I know this is not very helpful, but ... 73, George, AA7JV/C6AGU -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L
Gents: I will support Fred's recommendation for RX antennas on TB. Even my modest back yard could fit three bi-directional EWE's in delta layout among the trees. I was flabbergasted at how well the signals popped out of the noise compared to my inverted L TX antenna. 73 de Gene Smar AD3F -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces+ersmar=verizon@contesting.com] On Behalf Of fmoeves Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 6:25 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L I agree with what others have said. Best thing I did here in my noisy area was a Rx antenna. There's no way I could listen to my inverted L here in KY. KB4QZH Original message From: daraym...@iowatelecom.net Date: 4/19/20 12:35 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Peter Krulewitch , topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L The inverted L will out perform and inverted vee, hands down, 90% of the time. The few exceptions will probably be near your local SR (and other times) when horizontal polarization can work better.73. . . Dave, W0FLS-Original Message- From: Peter KrulewitchSent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 11:28 AMTo: topband@contesting.comSubject: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted LHave used inverted L with 90 apex for several years but wonder whether comparison tests or experiences with inverted V at that height compares. Tnx fer your ideas.W2LLSent from my iPhone_Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L
I agree with what others have said. Best thing I did here in my noisy area was a Rx antenna. There's no way I could listen to my inverted L here in KY. KB4QZH Original message From: daraym...@iowatelecom.net Date: 4/19/20 12:35 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Peter Krulewitch , topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L The inverted L will out perform and inverted vee, hands down, 90% of the time. The few exceptions will probably be near your local SR (and other times) when horizontal polarization can work better. 73. . . Dave, W0FLS-Original Message- From: Peter KrulewitchSent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 11:28 AMTo: topband@contesting.comSubject: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted LHave used inverted L with 90 apex for several years but wonder whether comparison tests or experiences with inverted V at that height compares. Tnx fer your ideas.W2LLSent from my iPhone_Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L
SigAssuming your interested in DX, your “L” with four elevated radials will handily beat an inverted vee the vast majority of the time. 73. . . Dave, W0FLS From: Peter Krulewitch Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 12:12 PM To: Joe Cc: daraym...@iowatelecom.net ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L I should have stated for the comparison that I have 4 elevated radials under the inverted L W2LL Sent from my iPhone On Apr 19, 2020, at 12:49 PM, Joe wrote: An Inverted "L" is more or less a vertical, but the upper half got bent over correct? So a major part of an inverted "L" just as in a regular vertical is the ground system. Correct? Now how elevated radials work great in a regular vertical, only need like 4 to equal miles of wire in ground mounted radial field. Will elevated radials work for an inverted "L"? How about few and shorter than full length elevated radials as in a N6BT design? Joe WB9SBD The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com On 4/19/2020 11:35 AM, daraym...@iowatelecom.net wrote: The inverted L will out perform and inverted vee, hands down, 90% of the time. The few exceptions will probably be near your local SR (and other times) when horizontal polarization can work better.73. . . Dave, W0FLS -Original Message- From: Peter Krulewitch Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 11:28 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L Have used inverted L with 90 apex for several years but wonder whether comparison tests or experiences with inverted V at that height compares. Tnx fer your ideas.W2LL Sent from my iPhone _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L
>>> The inverted L will out perform and inverted vee, hands down, 90% of the >>> time. The few exceptions will probably be near your local SR (and other times) when horizontal polarization can work better Dave, W0FLS<<< This conclusion regarding probability is supported through numerous observations over the years in various texts and documented in John Delvodere's "Low Band DXing" 5th Edition Chapter 14 Section 7. But each installation is unique. These are probabilistic forecasts (like the weather). The important thing is to go into the experiment with realistic expectations and a priori knowledge of most-likely outcomes. But by all means, experiment! Share your results! We are all learning new things every day, especially about Top Band. I will share my experience when I phased two dipoles on 80 meters, 20 feet high above average soil, as an experiment: I presumed, based upon standard literature I had reviewed up until that point and 45 years of personal experience, that the installation would be a "ground warmer." Imagine my surprise when I was able to easily hear and work into EU running QRP! I learned a lot from that experiment and VA2GU's assistance (although John Delvodere does discuss this type of antenna at the beginning of Chapter 12 in the 5th Edition). VA2GU has evaluated phased wires extensively and has collected data to confirm his conclusions (you can see his analysis on his QRZ.com web page.) Alas, a storm brought the dipoles down and the tree supports with them. Mark Lunday, WD4ELG Greensboro, NC FM06be wd4...@arrl.net http://wd4elg.blogspot.com SKCC #16439 FISTS #17972 QRP ARCI #16497 _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L
I should have stated for the comparison that I have 4 elevated radials under the inverted L W2LL Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 19, 2020, at 12:49 PM, Joe wrote: > > An Inverted "L" is more or less a vertical, but the upper half got bent > over correct? > > So a major part of an inverted "L" just as in a regular vertical is the > ground system. > Correct? > > Now how elevated radials work great in a regular vertical, only need like 4 > to equal miles of wire in ground mounted radial field. > > Will elevated radials work for an inverted "L"? > > How about few and shorter than full length elevated radials as in a N6BT > design? > > Joe WB9SBD > > > The Original Rolling Ball Clock > Idle Tyme > Idle-Tyme.com > http://www.idle-tyme.com > On 4/19/2020 11:35 AM, daraym...@iowatelecom.net wrote: >> The inverted L will out perform and inverted vee, hands down, 90% of the >> time. The few exceptions will probably be near your local SR (and other >> times) when horizontal polarization can work better.73. . . >> Dave, W0FLS >> >> -Original Message- From: Peter Krulewitch >> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 11:28 AM >> To: topband@contesting.com >> Subject: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L >> >> Have used inverted L with 90 apex for several years but wonder whether >> comparison tests or experiences with inverted V at that height compares. Tnx >> fer your ideas.W2LL >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _ >> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector >> _ >> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector >> > _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L
Peter, It depends on a lot of things: ground characteristics, number of radials, height of radials and the overall height available. Generally, over average-to-good ground and with 32 or more radials, the inverted L will perform better for DX at anything up 100', most of the time. If you can put an inverted V higher than 100', you may get a better antenna, especially if your QTH is over poor soil and you have only a few radials. Really, there is only one way to tell: Try it. Ultimately, having both will give you the best performance. I know this is not very helpful, but ... 73, George, AA7JV/C6AGU On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 12:28:05 -0400 Peter Krulewitch wrote: Have used inverted L with 90 apex for several years but wonder whether comparison tests or experiences with inverted V at that height compares. Tnx fer your ideas.W2LL Sent from my iPhone _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L
An Inverted "L" is more or less a vertical, but the upper half got bent over correct? So a major part of an inverted "L" just as in a regular vertical is the ground system. Correct? Now how elevated radials work great in a regular vertical, only need like 4 to equal miles of wire in ground mounted radial field. Will elevated radials work for an inverted "L"? How about few and shorter than full length elevated radials as in a N6BT design? Joe WB9SBD Sig The Original Rolling Ball Clock Idle Tyme Idle-Tyme.com http://www.idle-tyme.com On 4/19/2020 11:35 AM, daraym...@iowatelecom.net wrote: The inverted L will out perform and inverted vee, hands down, 90% of the time. The few exceptions will probably be near your local SR (and other times) when horizontal polarization can work better. 73. . . Dave, W0FLS -Original Message- From: Peter Krulewitch Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 11:28 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L Have used inverted L with 90 apex for several years but wonder whether comparison tests or experiences with inverted V at that height compares. Tnx fer your ideas.W2LL Sent from my iPhone _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L
The inverted L will out perform and inverted vee, hands down, 90% of the time. The few exceptions will probably be near your local SR (and other times) when horizontal polarization can work better.73. . . Dave, W0FLS -Original Message- From: Peter Krulewitch Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 11:28 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Inverted V vs inverted L Have used inverted L with 90 apex for several years but wonder whether comparison tests or experiences with inverted V at that height compares. Tnx fer your ideas.W2LL Sent from my iPhone _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
