Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Thanks for all the feedback on how to get the radials over/under/through the wall. After playing with this for the past few weeks I realize no way to go under as test poundings on rods indicates the wall is too deep. Without dismantling the wall the only way I can get through is possible drilling. I am going to try that. Tried a couple of holes but not much progress through the stones. Going to try a hammer dill and see if the vibration will jitter the stones enough that I can get a wire through in several places. I received an idea that if I can get a few wires through I can set up a buss on the other side of the stone wall and feed multiple radials from that. I had an offer to model my situation by going over the wall. Will have to see how that looks when the person gets the time. In the meantime I was reviewing a couple of articles on radials - QEX Jan 2009 and NCJ Jan-Jun 2005. I had thought there was a more recent in depth article on elevated vs. ground radials and short vs. long radials but haven't found it yet. Does anyone remember the article and where it appeared? While I am working on the Topband radial issue I want to go from elevated radials on my 80M 4-sq to ground radials. Guess what, that stone wall really comes into play as the NW feedpoint is right behind the stone wall in a field of stones. I will have to bury the radials in the rocks. The deer for years like traversing the stone wall right by the NW feedpoint so the radials can't be on top of the rocks. Tried that once. Didn't last long. Looks like a good winter project when the leaves are down and I cut back the thorny bushes. 73, N2TK, Tony From: N2TK, Tony [mailto:tony@verizon.net] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:18 AM To: 'topband' Subject: Radials over a stone wall I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. 73, N2TK, Tony ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Thanks for all the feedback on how to get the radials over/under/through the wall. After playing with this for the past few weeks I realize no way to go under as test poundings on rods indicates the wall is too deep. Tony, Sometimes things get lost in all the traffic on debatable topics. You do realize there is very little disadvantage to just going up over the wall and back down? It does not change the effective height any amount that means anything, nor does it cause a shadow. It adds a little series inductance, depending on the wavelength of the closed stub you form. If you simply split the wire into two spread out wires far enough apart (a few wall thickness apart) you cut the small series inductance in half. It is often too easy and too common to forget the difference between something we could ever notice even if we looked, and something that actually matters. Usually as long as we don't do something wrong, many of the things long discussions make sound worrisome are really insignificant. I looked at the radials in a model, and the change on 160 from your wall height and thickness was very minor, and could be made very minor over N by adding multiple over-the-wall wires. You only added a ~3 degree long stub. 73 Tom ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Tom, Thanks for the info. This is what I was looking for - info from someone who has modeled the radials and/or actual experience with measurements. Going over the wall simplifies things for me both for the shunt fed tower for topband and for the radials for the 80M 4-sq. I plan on soldering the radials together for both antennas wherever they crisscross. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Tom W8JI [mailto:w...@w8ji.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 11:27 AM To: N2TK, Tony; 'topband' Subject: Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall Thanks for all the feedback on how to get the radials over/under/through the wall. After playing with this for the past few weeks I realize no way to go under as test poundings on rods indicates the wall is too deep. Tony, Sometimes things get lost in all the traffic on debatable topics. You do realize there is very little disadvantage to just going up over the wall and back down? It does not change the effective height any amount that means anything, nor does it cause a shadow. It adds a little series inductance, depending on the wavelength of the closed stub you form. If you simply split the wire into two spread out wires far enough apart (a few wall thickness apart) you cut the small series inductance in half. It is often too easy and too common to forget the difference between something we could ever notice even if we looked, and something that actually matters. Usually as long as we don't do something wrong, many of the things long discussions make sound worrisome are really insignificant. I looked at the radials in a model, and the change on 160 from your wall height and thickness was very minor, and could be made very minor over N by adding multiple over-the-wall wires. You only added a ~3 degree long stub. 73 Tom ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Thanks for the info. This is what I was looking for - info from someone who has modeled the radials and/or actual experience with measurements. Going over the wall simplifies things for me both for the shunt fed tower for topband and for the radials for the 80M 4-sq. I plan on soldering the radials together for both antennas wherever they crisscross. I'm pretty sure I posted it, but I know I modeled it out of curiosity because I wanted to see how closely EZnec agreed with treating it like a simple stub. If you keep the wires far enough apart each new wire divides the impedance, so three thin wires over the wall spaced a foot apart are quite a bit better than one thick one. For such a small change added by a short stub, I'd not bother digging, boring, blasting, or drilling. You could, if you are exceptionally obsessive, run a buss along the wall on each side and run multiple small wires over the wall. Despite what I hear, I have number 16 ground wires on my 300 ft tower that were installed in 1998 when I did an elevated radial test here. I started checking those wires this summer because of all the repeated lightning hit, day after day for a while, that went on. The original wires held up fine after years of direct hits (except where I trenched through them), so I don't think even #16 wire would be a wall issue for you. ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Tnx again Tom. K7HP modeled this too and is saying exactly what you are saying. As soon as the leaves fall off the trees (which will be soon here in upstate NY)I will clean out the area beyond the stone wall and start extending the radials. The other week I dig up a few of my enameled #16 radials to check after they were under the grass for several years. Still shiny bright. Can't do that with aluminum under the ground here though. It only took 3 years to eat away all the aluminum covering on some hardline. It was gooey. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom W8JI Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:50 PM To: N2TK, Tony; 'topband' Subject: Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall Thanks for the info. This is what I was looking for - info from someone who has modeled the radials and/or actual experience with measurements. Going over the wall simplifies things for me both for the shunt fed tower for topband and for the radials for the 80M 4-sq. I plan on soldering the radials together for both antennas wherever they crisscross. I'm pretty sure I posted it, but I know I modeled it out of curiosity because I wanted to see how closely EZnec agreed with treating it like a simple stub. If you keep the wires far enough apart each new wire divides the impedance, so three thin wires over the wall spaced a foot apart are quite a bit better than one thick one. For such a small change added by a short stub, I'd not bother digging, boring, blasting, or drilling. You could, if you are exceptionally obsessive, run a buss along the wall on each side and run multiple small wires over the wall. Despite what I hear, I have number 16 ground wires on my 300 ft tower that were installed in 1998 when I did an elevated radial test here. I started checking those wires this summer because of all the repeated lightning hit, day after day for a while, that went on. The original wires held up fine after years of direct hits (except where I trenched through them), so I don't think even #16 wire would be a wall issue for you. ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Be real careful when drilling at those seam points tho as the bit can get stuck when hitting the harder area around the joint and if your holding on with both hands it will twist your arms around real good. Sent from my iPad On Aug 10, 2012, at 16:20, ZR z...@jeremy.mv.com wrote: Rent a hammer drill with a 1/2 or 3/4 bit and an extension. Takes about 15 minutes a hole as long as you have AC out there. My 3/4 bit is 12 long and Ive used it several times to bust up big boulders at or near the surface in the yard. Start at a point where there is space between 2 rocks to minimize the effort. This is a job where you sit on the ground to work and then lay down when tired and keep drilling! Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: Herb Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net To: N2TK, Tony tony@verizon.net Cc: 'topband' topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:32 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall Tony, no need to fret about drilling. I would say than going under is better than going over. The crews who do direct burial for cable TV and fiber have special directional drill attachments that you should try to borrow. the will go straight down along the wall until they get to the dirt under the wall, find their way under the wall and come up on the other side. You just a need a few of these connector and for them it is something they do all the time under highways, concrete drainage and sidewalks, as a matter of their work. If you want to DIY you could also excavate as much as possible on both sides, take some 8 foot ground rods and drive them at an angle drive with a sledge on each side and see if you can establish contact. Fill both sides of the pilot holes with rock salt, the water them for several days. Eventually you should have a fairly low resistance connection from one rod to the other, even if they do not touch. Connect you radials to both ground rods. Only problem with the rock salt is it will eventually each away at the copper covered steel rod. But you should be good for a year or two. Before I get royally flamed here and subjected to humiliation by not having this advice peer reviewed, let me suggest that this method has never been tested by me and probably not by anyone else. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 8/10/2012 2:21 PM, N2TK, Tony wrote: Thanks Bill and Herb about drilling a hole through the wall. That could be tough. It is a stone wall with no mortar. It is about 20-28 thick. It is well constructed with large field stones. It would be rough to drill through all of that. I had thought about taking portion of the wall apart but figured I would never get it back to looking as good as it does now. The stones go fairly deep so not much chance of going under the wall. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Bill Wichers [mailto:bi...@waveform.net] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:26 PM To: N2TK, Tony; topband Subject: RE: Topband: Radials over a stone wall I would expect an up and over to clear the wall would result in a choke-like effect on the radial and would, at best, reduce the radial's effectiveness. It should be easy to just drill some small (maybe 1/4?) holes through the wall in a few places to pass the radials through. With a decent hammer drill and a carbide bit a small hole like that is pretty quick and easy to complete -- even in concrete or stone. Then just use a piece of coathanger wire as a wire fishing tool to run the radials through the hole. I use a wire pulling tool called a creep-zit to pull radials under fallen trees and logs in the woods. It works great. I basically just take one of the 6 foot long fiberglass rods (each of which is a little over 1/8 diameter), tape the radial to one end, and then I can push it under fallen debris easily. With a little practice you can even get around hidden obstructions in the ground this way. -Bill I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. 73, N2TK, Tony ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 9:10 AM, Herb Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net wrote: When drilling in stone to prevent overheating of the drill bit and tip consider using water as a coolant. You have to be careful doing that. Some types of carbide will instantly crack from the thermal shock of cooling too fast. It's better just to retract the drill a lot so that the grooves in the drill bit don't plug up; that's what generates a lot of heat. The other thing that came to mind was to use a curved piece of pipe or tubing as a water drill. One end open, the other end hooked to a garden hose. The radius would have to be fairly constant in order not to bind in the hole. Hey, you could put a gopher in a bottomless cage on one side, and some food on the other. When he burrows under the wall to get at the food, you can run your radials through his burrow. ;-) Seriously, will it really matter if we run it up 48, over 24, and down 48? Maybe it would if we wanted to use the radials on higher bands, but on 160? Just parallel some wires like Tom suggested, to keep the inductance down. I don't think we even know how far from the vertical the wall is. If the wall is short enough, far enough away, and/or at angle, a few radials bent or missing in the direction of the wall might not even matter. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
- Original Message - From: Mike Waters mikew...@gmail.com To: he...@vitelcom.net; topband topband@contesting.com Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:04 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 9:10 AM, Herb Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net wrote: When drilling in stone to prevent overheating of the drill bit and tip consider using water as a coolant. You have to be careful doing that. Some types of carbide will instantly crack from the thermal shock of cooling too fast. It's better just to retract the drill a lot so that the grooves in the drill bit don't plug up; that's what generates a lot of heat. Cleaning out the grooves and hole on a regular basis is all Ive ever done and the bit is over 20 years old and still does the job. Its easy to tell when it needs cleaning as the progress slows down. Carl KM1H ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
What about pushing them thru holes in the wall? I do that with the radials for a pair of 2 wire Beverages that terminate at trees right at the wall which has been there since at least the early 1800's. If you have to push 2-3 thru the same hole it shouldnt matter. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: N2TK, Tony tony@verizon.net To: 'topband' topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:17 AM Subject: Topband: Radials over a stone wall I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. 73, N2TK, Tony ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2437/5191 - Release Date: 08/10/12 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
On 8/10/2012 11:17 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote: I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. Tony, A long masonry drill used in the cable TV industry (which has a hole on the pointed end to attach the wire and pull it through the wall, is your best option in my view. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
I can run a NEC simulation tomorrow to see how much radials up and over affect things. Dave WX7G On Aug 10, 2012 10:16 AM, Herb Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net wrote: On 8/10/2012 11:17 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote: I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. Tony, A long masonry drill used in the cable TV industry (which has a hole on the pointed end to attach the wire and pull it through the wall, is your best option in my view. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
I would expect an up and over to clear the wall would result in a choke-like effect on the radial and would, at best, reduce the radial's effectiveness. It should be easy to just drill some small (maybe 1/4?) holes through the wall in a few places to pass the radials through. With a decent hammer drill and a carbide bit a small hole like that is pretty quick and easy to complete -- even in concrete or stone. Then just use a piece of coathanger wire as a wire fishing tool to run the radials through the hole. I use a wire pulling tool called a creep-zit to pull radials under fallen trees and logs in the woods. It works great. I basically just take one of the 6 foot long fiberglass rods (each of which is a little over 1/8 diameter), tape the radial to one end, and then I can push it under fallen debris easily. With a little practice you can even get around hidden obstructions in the ground this way. -Bill I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. 73, N2TK, Tony ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Simulation will tell the tale but in the mean time we have two things caused by the up-and-over that we can mull over: 1) There is cancellation of the magnetic fields by the up-and-over wires thereby minimizing any additional inductance to the normal radial return current. 2) current is induced in the vertical wires by the antenna magnetic field. This induced current is opposite to the normal radial return current. Dave WX7G On Aug 10, 2012 10:26 AM, Bill Wichers bi...@waveform.net wrote: I would expect an up and over to clear the wall would result in a choke-like effect on the radial and would, at best, reduce the radial's effectiveness. It should be easy to just drill some small (maybe 1/4?) holes through the wall in a few places to pass the radials through. With a decent hammer drill and a carbide bit a small hole like that is pretty quick and easy to complete -- even in concrete or stone. Then just use a piece of coathanger wire as a wire fishing tool to run the radials through the hole. I use a wire pulling tool called a creep-zit to pull radials under fallen trees and logs in the woods. It works great. I basically just take one of the 6 foot long fiberglass rods (each of which is a little over 1/8 diameter), tape the radial to one end, and then I can push it under fallen debris easily. With a little practice you can even get around hidden obstructions in the ground this way. -Bill I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. 73, N2TK, Tony ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Hi Carl, The guys that built the stone wall did too good a job. I have been looking for that proverbial hole in the wall. N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: ZR [mailto:z...@jeremy.mv.com] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:07 PM To: N2TK, Tony; 'topband' Subject: Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall What about pushing them thru holes in the wall? I do that with the radials for a pair of 2 wire Beverages that terminate at trees right at the wall which has been there since at least the early 1800's. If you have to push 2-3 thru the same hole it shouldnt matter. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: N2TK, Tony tony@verizon.net To: 'topband' topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:17 AM Subject: Topband: Radials over a stone wall I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. 73, N2TK, Tony ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2437/5191 - Release Date: 08/10/12 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Tnx Dave, That would be very helpful. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: topband-boun...@contesting.com [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of DAVID CUTHBERT Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:20 PM To: Herb Schoenbohm Cc: N2TK, Tony; topband Subject: Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall I can run a NEC simulation tomorrow to see how much radials up and over affect things. Dave WX7G On Aug 10, 2012 10:16 AM, Herb Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net wrote: On 8/10/2012 11:17 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote: I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. Tony, A long masonry drill used in the cable TV industry (which has a hole on the pointed end to attach the wire and pull it through the wall, is your best option in my view. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Thanks Bill and Herb about drilling a hole through the wall. That could be tough. It is a stone wall with no mortar. It is about 20-28 thick. It is well constructed with large field stones. It would be rough to drill through all of that. I had thought about taking portion of the wall apart but figured I would never get it back to looking as good as it does now. The stones go fairly deep so not much chance of going under the wall. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Bill Wichers [mailto:bi...@waveform.net] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:26 PM To: N2TK, Tony; topband Subject: RE: Topband: Radials over a stone wall I would expect an up and over to clear the wall would result in a choke-like effect on the radial and would, at best, reduce the radial's effectiveness. It should be easy to just drill some small (maybe 1/4?) holes through the wall in a few places to pass the radials through. With a decent hammer drill and a carbide bit a small hole like that is pretty quick and easy to complete -- even in concrete or stone. Then just use a piece of coathanger wire as a wire fishing tool to run the radials through the hole. I use a wire pulling tool called a creep-zit to pull radials under fallen trees and logs in the woods. It works great. I basically just take one of the 6 foot long fiberglass rods (each of which is a little over 1/8 diameter), tape the radial to one end, and then I can push it under fallen debris easily. With a little practice you can even get around hidden obstructions in the ground this way. -Bill I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. 73, N2TK, Tony ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Tony, no need to fret about drilling. I would say than going under is better than going over. The crews who do direct burial for cable TV and fiber have special directional drill attachments that you should try to borrow. the will go straight down along the wall until they get to the dirt under the wall, find their way under the wall and come up on the other side. You just a need a few of these connector and for them it is something they do all the time under highways, concrete drainage and sidewalks, as a matter of their work. If you want to DIY you could also excavate as much as possible on both sides, take some 8 foot ground rods and drive them at an angle drive with a sledge on each side and see if you can establish contact. Fill both sides of the pilot holes with rock salt, the water them for several days. Eventually you should have a fairly low resistance connection from one rod to the other, even if they do not touch. Connect you radials to both ground rods. Only problem with the rock salt is it will eventually each away at the copper covered steel rod. But you should be good for a year or two. Before I get royally flamed here and subjected to humiliation by not having this advice peer reviewed, let me suggest that this method has never been tested by me and probably not by anyone else. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 8/10/2012 2:21 PM, N2TK, Tony wrote: Thanks Bill and Herb about drilling a hole through the wall. That could be tough. It is a stone wall with no mortar. It is about 20-28 thick. It is well constructed with large field stones. It would be rough to drill through all of that. I had thought about taking portion of the wall apart but figured I would never get it back to looking as good as it does now. The stones go fairly deep so not much chance of going under the wall. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Bill Wichers [mailto:bi...@waveform.net] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:26 PM To: N2TK, Tony; topband Subject: RE: Topband: Radials over a stone wall I would expect an up and over to clear the wall would result in a choke-like effect on the radial and would, at best, reduce the radial's effectiveness. It should be easy to just drill some small (maybe 1/4?) holes through the wall in a few places to pass the radials through. With a decent hammer drill and a carbide bit a small hole like that is pretty quick and easy to complete -- even in concrete or stone. Then just use a piece of coathanger wire as a wire fishing tool to run the radials through the hole. I use a wire pulling tool called a creep-zit to pull radials under fallen trees and logs in the woods. It works great. I basically just take one of the 6 foot long fiberglass rods (each of which is a little over 1/8 diameter), tape the radial to one end, and then I can push it under fallen debris easily. With a little practice you can even get around hidden obstructions in the ground this way. -Bill I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. 73, N2TK, Tony ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Rent a hammer drill with a 1/2 or 3/4 bit and an extension. Takes about 15 minutes a hole as long as you have AC out there. My 3/4 bit is 12 long and Ive used it several times to bust up big boulders at or near the surface in the yard. Start at a point where there is space between 2 rocks to minimize the effort. This is a job where you sit on the ground to work and then lay down when tired and keep drilling! Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: Herb Schoenbohm he...@vitelcom.net To: N2TK, Tony tony@verizon.net Cc: 'topband' topband@contesting.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:32 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall Tony, no need to fret about drilling. I would say than going under is better than going over. The crews who do direct burial for cable TV and fiber have special directional drill attachments that you should try to borrow. the will go straight down along the wall until they get to the dirt under the wall, find their way under the wall and come up on the other side. You just a need a few of these connector and for them it is something they do all the time under highways, concrete drainage and sidewalks, as a matter of their work. If you want to DIY you could also excavate as much as possible on both sides, take some 8 foot ground rods and drive them at an angle drive with a sledge on each side and see if you can establish contact. Fill both sides of the pilot holes with rock salt, the water them for several days. Eventually you should have a fairly low resistance connection from one rod to the other, even if they do not touch. Connect you radials to both ground rods. Only problem with the rock salt is it will eventually each away at the copper covered steel rod. But you should be good for a year or two. Before I get royally flamed here and subjected to humiliation by not having this advice peer reviewed, let me suggest that this method has never been tested by me and probably not by anyone else. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 8/10/2012 2:21 PM, N2TK, Tony wrote: Thanks Bill and Herb about drilling a hole through the wall. That could be tough. It is a stone wall with no mortar. It is about 20-28 thick. It is well constructed with large field stones. It would be rough to drill through all of that. I had thought about taking portion of the wall apart but figured I would never get it back to looking as good as it does now. The stones go fairly deep so not much chance of going under the wall. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Bill Wichers [mailto:bi...@waveform.net] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:26 PM To: N2TK, Tony; topband Subject: RE: Topband: Radials over a stone wall I would expect an up and over to clear the wall would result in a choke-like effect on the radial and would, at best, reduce the radial's effectiveness. It should be easy to just drill some small (maybe 1/4?) holes through the wall in a few places to pass the radials through. With a decent hammer drill and a carbide bit a small hole like that is pretty quick and easy to complete -- even in concrete or stone. Then just use a piece of coathanger wire as a wire fishing tool to run the radials through the hole. I use a wire pulling tool called a creep-zit to pull radials under fallen trees and logs in the woods. It works great. I basically just take one of the 6 foot long fiberglass rods (each of which is a little over 1/8 diameter), tape the radial to one end, and then I can push it under fallen debris easily. With a little practice you can even get around hidden obstructions in the ground this way. -Bill I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. 73, N2TK, Tony ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2437/5191 - Release Date: 08/10/12
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Tony the walls of my house are Stone and about the thickness of your wall. When I came to installing a good ground system I drilled through the stone wall fairly easily and ran copper tubing through for the ground. I do not see any difference between that and your Wall. Give it a try with a good heavy drill. 73 Clive GM3POI -Original Message- From: topband-boun...@contesting.com [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N2TK, Tony Sent: 10 August 2012 18:21 To: 'topband' Subject: Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall Thanks Bill and Herb about drilling a hole through the wall. That could be tough. It is a stone wall with no mortar. It is about 20-28 thick. It is well constructed with large field stones. It would be rough to drill through all of that. I had thought about taking portion of the wall apart but figured I would never get it back to looking as good as it does now. The stones go fairly deep so not much chance of going under the wall. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Bill Wichers [mailto:bi...@waveform.net] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:26 PM To: N2TK, Tony; topband Subject: RE: Topband: Radials over a stone wall I would expect an up and over to clear the wall would result in a choke-like effect on the radial and would, at best, reduce the radial's effectiveness. It should be easy to just drill some small (maybe 1/4?) holes through the wall in a few places to pass the radials through. With a decent hammer drill and a carbide bit a small hole like that is pretty quick and easy to complete -- even in concrete or stone. Then just use a piece of coathanger wire as a wire fishing tool to run the radials through the hole. I use a wire pulling tool called a creep-zit to pull radials under fallen trees and logs in the woods. It works great. I basically just take one of the 6 foot long fiberglass rods (each of which is a little over 1/8 diameter), tape the radial to one end, and then I can push it under fallen debris easily. With a little practice you can even get around hidden obstructions in the ground this way. -Bill I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. 73, N2TK, Tony ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 9.0.0.2308, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.20360) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 9.0.0.2308, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.20360) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
The directional drilling rigs used for fiber installation under highways, etc., aren't *attachments*, they are big hydraulic machines with 6 figure price tags. I doubt very much anyone would lone one out, and I wouldn't want to borrow one if I didn't know how to run it. Also, directional drilling is generally most economical for runs under pavement and the like over relatively long distances (hundreds of feet or more) where it saves the significant cost of cutting pavement and repairing the cut after trenching. If you only want to go under a wall, the setup/teardown time for the crew will likely make the per-foot cost ridiculously high. I contract this kind of project at work frequently and my minimum cost is about $2,000 per shot due to setup/teardown costs for short runs. For longer runs (1,000+ feet), the cost works out to around $6-10/foot depending on the project and grounds restoration requirements. Also, the directional drilling rigs have minimum distances they can work in since the down and back up curve is limited by the flexibility of the drill rod (which is basically steel pipe). Most of the CATV drops to houses are plowed in, which is done by a machine similar in size to a riding lawnmower but with a vibratory plow attachment. This is quick and cuts a small slit in the ground while pulling the cable behind the plow. You *can* go through some pavement (like asphalt) with these rigs but they can't go through walls. There *is* a poor-man's method that might work here: you can dig a hole on either side of the wall below the bottom of the wall. You can then use a small pipe with water running through it (such as from a garden hose) and then use that to bore by hand under the wall. If the ground isn't too rocky this method can work pretty well, although it's really tedious if you need to do a lot of bores. -Bill Tony, no need to fret about drilling. I would say than going under is better than going over. The crews who do direct burial for cable TV and fiber have special directional drill attachments that you should try to borrow. the will go straight down along the wall until they get to the dirt under the wall, find their way under the wall and come up on the other side. You just a need a few of these connector and for them it is something they do all the time under highways, concrete drainage and sidewalks, as a matter of their work. [snip] ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
Tony, If snaking one or more wires under the fence isn't feasible, I would simply run a buss wire around the base of the stone wall to the nearest opening and then back down the other side. Attach your radials to this buss wire on the tower side, and the continuation of these radials from the buss wire on the other side. If too far to the nearest opening, just bore one hole through or under the wall to connect the two buss wires. Never tested or modeled by me, but I'm doing something similar now with the four sets of radials on my new broadside-endfire array for Topband. There are several small drainage ditches (about 3 feet across and a couple of feet deep) that I didn't want a lot of wires crossing due to periodic maintenance needs. 73/Jon AA1K On 8/10/2012 2:21 PM, N2TK, Tony wrote: Thanks Bill and Herb about drilling a hole through the wall. That could be tough. It is a stone wall with no mortar. It is about 20-28 thick. It is well constructed with large field stones. It would be rough to drill through all of that. I had thought about taking portion of the wall apart but figured I would never get it back to looking as good as it does now. The stones go fairly deep so not much chance of going under the wall. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Bill Wichers [mailto:bi...@waveform.net] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:26 PM To: N2TK, Tony; topband Subject: RE: Topband: Radials over a stone wall I would expect an up and over to clear the wall would result in a choke-like effect on the radial and would, at best, reduce the radial's effectiveness. It should be easy to just drill some small (maybe 1/4?) holes through the wall in a few places to pass the radials through. With a decent hammer drill and a carbide bit a small hole like that is pretty quick and easy to complete -- even in concrete or stone. Then just use a piece of coathanger wire as a wire fishing tool to run the radials through the hole. I use a wire pulling tool called a creep-zit to pull radials under fallen trees and logs in the woods. It works great. I basically just take one of the 6 foot long fiberglass rods (each of which is a little over 1/8 diameter), tape the radial to one end, and then I can push it under fallen debris easily. With a little practice you can even get around hidden obstructions in the ground this way. -Bill I shunt feed my tower for topband. I use variable vacuum caps and a vacuum relay at the base to switch between the low end and the high end of the band. It seems to work okay. I have 100' buried radials spaced 10' at the ends from o degrees going clockwise through about 220 degrees. I have a 4' high stone wall that runs about 20/200 degrees that is about 35' at its closest point to the tower. So the radials are progressively shorter on the West side of the tower. I am making an assumption that going up over the wall will distort any benefits of extending the radials on the West side? Is that a true assumption. I can't really have the radials go from the tower base up at an angle to clear the stone wall and continue on. If I am to extend them the radials would have to go on the ground to the wall then up and over and back down to the ground. 73, N2TK, Tony ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radials over a stone wall
On 8/10/2012 4:52 PM, Bill Wichers wrote: The directional drilling rigs used for fiber installation under highways, etc., aren't *attachments*, they are big hydraulic machines with 6 figure price tags. Bill I used here a Bobcat with a vibrating plow attachment for short runs. It also had a direction drill attachment for short 50 foot runs under pavement and sidewalks and worked great. I did however need to dig a hole on each side of the work Herb, KV4FZ ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
