Re: Topband: underground cables question
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 3:30 PM, N2TK, Tonywrote: > Crimp on F-connectors is the way to go. If you do it right it is very > difficult to pull off the connector. Wedge it I a vise and try to pull out > the coax. > IF you get the good crimp-ons! Can anyone recommend a source? I only have a few left. They come with silicone dielectric compound pre-applied inside. There's also Belden Snap-n-Seal connectors. Their length is compressed using a special tool, which in turn crimps down on the coax jacket using a plastic tube with a molded-in taper. They have different IDs; smaller for dual-shield coax and larger for quad-shield. If you use the ones intended for quad-shield on dual-shield coax, they'll pull out too easy. (Don't ask me how I know that. ;-) Can anyone recommend a source for good and cheap Snap-n-Seal connectors for dual-shield coax? 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: underground cables question
Wes, has it.. these installations MUST take into consideration the effect of LOCAL conditions. With an average humidity of less than 25%, and an annual rainfall of 10 inches.. the high desert doesn't have water filled conduit (PVC) tubing full of water. IF it did.. there would be someone putting in pumps and lines to water the gardern, feed the house, and water the crops. Oh.. wait.. they are.. but the water comes from 700 + feed down. (Big motor - Big pump - Big conduit - aka irrigation tube is 6 inch dia.) Where Guy worked.. had to much wetter, and conduit likely filled at its own discretion. Where Wes lives, not nearly so much. Learn, and work smarter. Have a great day, --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy "Actions speak louder than words" 1856 - Abraham Lincoln _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: underground cables question
Hi Jeff, I have been using Commscope F660BEF flooded RG6 for years. I direct bury it. It has a PE jacket. It is used for all receive antenna feedlines. Also use it on 80M. Crimp on F-connectors is the way to go. If you do it right it is very difficult to pull off the connector. Wedge it I a vise and try to pull out the coax. In regards to direct bury, I dug a trench about a foot deep. Lines with about 4" of sand. Laid in the cables then covered to the surface with sand. The grass grew over it. I have had to add a cable a number of years ago. It was fairly easy to open up the trench, remove enough sand, lay down another cable and recover with sand. So far 25 years in the ground. I buried RG6, Buryflex, 7/8" hardline, 9913 and control cables. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Draughn Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 12:02 PM To: Dale Putnam <daleput...@hotmail.com>; Wes Attaway (N5WA) <wesatta...@bellsouth.net> Cc: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question I've never used RG-6 flooded, if the material is sticky how tough is it to get a good connection to the connector?? I'm getting ready to use some and just curious what I'm getting into. Thanks Jeff, N0OST On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 10:44 AM Wes Attaway (N5WA) <wesatta...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > I installed 4 runs of BuryFlex through my slab and then out into the > > backyard about 15-years ago (when we built a new house) and it is > still > > working fine. I have conduit through the slab (open at both ends) but > the > > cable is direct buried out in the yard (about 24" deep). > > > >--- > > Wes Attaway (N5WA) > > (318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA > > Computer/Cellphone Forensics > > AttawayForensics.com > >--- > > -Original Message- > > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of > Dale > > Putnam > > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 10:13 AM > > Cc: topband@contesting.com > > Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question > > > > must have to do with the annual rainfall. > > > > I too come from 30+ years in telco and radio comm. There are 12 runs > of 6 in > > conduit between building on one campus, and a number of others around > that > > are still dry after being there for 20+ years. And the conduit, I am > > speaking of is PVC TUBE.. pretty much the same stuff that carries the > > water into your house. IF someone wants to use emt conduit, then that > is the > > description that Guy so aptly describes. NOT a good deal. AND it isn't > rated > > for water per code in the electrical code either. I have seen where > > squirrels somehow managed to work the metal conduit hard enough with > the > > weather helping, to access the coax inside.. they didn't much like the > > sticky goo inside.. but that didn't stop them from eating enough to > short > > the coax.. and of course Muphy made it an intermittent short. > > > > > > Have a great day, > > --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy > > > > "Actions speak louder than words" > > 1856 - Abraham Lincoln > > > > > > > > From: guyk...@gmail.com <guyk...@gmail.com> on behalf of Guy Olinger > K2AV > > <k2av@gmail.com> > > Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 8:12 AM > > To: Dale Putnam > > Cc: topband@contesting.com > > Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question > > > > Coming from an ancient Telco background which included keeping > microwave > > waveguides dry for AT, unless you are willing to pressurize the > conduit at > > one end and allow air to exit at the other, AND insure that the air is > dry > > enough to not condensate at your coldest possible ground temperature, > or run > > it with an unbroken slope to a point where water drains without > pumping and > > or can be suctioned, then make these assumptions: > > > > 1) Permanent performance and very long life is desired and outweighs cost. > > If you move a lot and are putting up stuff at rental housing you > probably > > need not worry. Just remember to start with new coax and cable at the > new > > rental place. Throw away the old stuff. Then mark this read and move > on to > > the next posting. If you think you are retiring at your place of > residence, > > and if lucky want it to work without a worry for the next 30 years > absent > > direct lightning strike, then read on. > > > > 2) All conduits will fill with water. That i
Re: Topband: underground cables question
I installed buryflex along with direct burial control cables last year. I learned that it is best to directly bury the cables without conduit. Water from condensation will eventually fill the conduit even if rain doesn't get in. Possibly a different story in low humidity areas, I suppose, but I am in VT. I have actually seen humidity fill multiple vertical pipes 2 feet high with condensation. On 10/5/2017 2:56 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: It's really dangerous to make these "all" statements. I've been keeping rainfall numbers and reporting them to rainlog.org for 11 years. My last measurable rain was 0.02 inches on Sept 14. The total for this year is 7.74 inches. If I want my conduit filled with water I need to use a garden hose :-) Wes N7WS On 10/5/2017 7:12 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: 2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless you specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first installed, filled with water is their most probable state. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: underground cables question
It's really dangerous to make these "all" statements. I've been keeping rainfall numbers and reporting them to rainlog.org for 11 years. My last measurable rain was 0.02 inches on Sept 14. The total for this year is 7.74 inches. If I want my conduit filled with water I need to use a garden hose :-) Wes N7WS On 10/5/2017 7:12 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: 2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless you specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first installed, filled with water is their most probable state. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: underground cables question
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Gert Meinenwrote: > Never use PVC drain pipe to bury coax ... > Not even flooded coax? 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: underground cables question
Hi John, Never use PVC drain pipe to bury coax or other cable, the molecules are that far apart that water eventually gets in no matter what. Better to use the same pipe your water supplier uses to get the water to your house, think its Polypropylene or something like that. That pipe will not let water out or in, the water company hates to lose water. That's why they don't use PVC which is a lot cheaper and mostly used for draining water when that leaks through the material into the ground nobody knows or cares. 73 Gert, PA3AAV -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] Namens John Verzonden: donderdag 5 oktober 2017 8:11 Aan: topband@contesting.com Onderwerp: Topband: underground cables question Hi all, some years ago I buried a 4 inch conduit about a foot deep in my field , inside I run a control wire and a coax line RG213 to a 160 m vertical the feeder was a total of 5/4 wavelength long about half of it in the conduit, it was used as one line for a pair of verticals spaced 5/8 wave apart. When first installed it worked very good but after a while I noticed it dropped off and I suspected water ingress. An insulation test with 1000v from my electricians test equipment showed indeed a fall in insulation resistance. So my question is I have a couple of large reels of commscope F1160 BEF flooded 75 ohm do you think I could put it in the same conduit which has allowed some water in or would you make alternative arrangements . I realise it a direct bury coax but appreciate advice. I wish to get the two verticals going again will use 1 X 3/4 line above ground 1x5/4 line part in conduit and a 1/2 wave to switch in and out above ground. regards John Beaumont G4EIM _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: underground cables question
I've never used RG-6 flooded, if the material is sticky how tough is it to get a good connection to the connector?? I'm getting ready to use some and just curious what I'm getting into. Thanks Jeff, N0OST On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 10:44 AM Wes Attaway (N5WA) <wesatta...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > I installed 4 runs of BuryFlex through my slab and then out into the > > backyard about 15-years ago (when we built a new house) and it is still > > working fine. I have conduit through the slab (open at both ends) but the > > cable is direct buried out in the yard (about 24" deep). > > > >--- > > Wes Attaway (N5WA) > > (318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA > > Computer/Cellphone Forensics > > AttawayForensics.com > >--- > > -Original Message- > > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dale > > Putnam > > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 10:13 AM > > Cc: topband@contesting.com > > Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question > > > > must have to do with the annual rainfall. > > > > I too come from 30+ years in telco and radio comm. There are 12 runs of 6 > in > > conduit between building on one campus, and a number of others around that > > are still dry after being there for 20+ years. And the conduit, I am > > speaking of is PVC TUBE.. pretty much the same stuff that carries the > > water into your house. IF someone wants to use emt conduit, then that is > the > > description that Guy so aptly describes. NOT a good deal. AND it isn't > rated > > for water per code in the electrical code either. I have seen where > > squirrels somehow managed to work the metal conduit hard enough with the > > weather helping, to access the coax inside.. they didn't much like the > > sticky goo inside.. but that didn't stop them from eating enough to short > > the coax.. and of course Muphy made it an intermittent short. > > > > > > Have a great day, > > --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy > > > > "Actions speak louder than words" > > 1856 - Abraham Lincoln > > > > > > ____ > > From: guyk...@gmail.com <guyk...@gmail.com> on behalf of Guy Olinger K2AV > > <k2av@gmail.com> > > Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 8:12 AM > > To: Dale Putnam > > Cc: topband@contesting.com > > Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question > > > > Coming from an ancient Telco background which included keeping microwave > > waveguides dry for AT, unless you are willing to pressurize the conduit > at > > one end and allow air to exit at the other, AND insure that the air is dry > > enough to not condensate at your coldest possible ground temperature, or > run > > it with an unbroken slope to a point where water drains without pumping and > > or can be suctioned, then make these assumptions: > > > > 1) Permanent performance and very long life is desired and outweighs cost. > > If you move a lot and are putting up stuff at rental housing you probably > > need not worry. Just remember to start with new coax and cable at the new > > rental place. Throw away the old stuff. Then mark this read and move on to > > the next posting. If you think you are retiring at your place of residence, > > and if lucky want it to work without a worry for the next 30 years absent > > direct lightning strike, then read on. > > > > 2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless > you > > specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first > > installed, filled with water is their most probable state. > > > > This leaves the main usefulnesses of the conduit as > > > > a) Critter protection, and > > > > b) Cable replacement, if the conduit is large enough and water-proof pull > > ropes are left in conduit, a method of adding or replacing cables that > > avoids redigging and leaving deprecated cable in the ground. These are > > significant long-term advantages, and many find those more than enough > > reason to use them. However... > > > > 3) Even in conduit all cables must have permanent, water-proof jacketing. > > Most cable has jacketing that is not rated for permanent submersion, meant > > for indoor use. > > > > Polyethelyne (PE) jacketed or hardline cable is really the only commonly > > available choice for coax with portions permanently submerged. Flooded is > > nice, but probably overkill INSIDE CONDUIT if the jacketing is PE or other > > permanently waterpro
Re: Topband: underground cables question
I installed 4 runs of BuryFlex through my slab and then out into the backyard about 15-years ago (when we built a new house) and it is still working fine. I have conduit through the slab (open at both ends) but the cable is direct buried out in the yard (about 24" deep). --- Wes Attaway (N5WA) (318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA Computer/Cellphone Forensics AttawayForensics.com --- -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dale Putnam Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 10:13 AM Cc: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question must have to do with the annual rainfall. I too come from 30+ years in telco and radio comm. There are 12 runs of 6 in conduit between building on one campus, and a number of others around that are still dry after being there for 20+ years. And the conduit, I am speaking of is PVC TUBE.. pretty much the same stuff that carries the water into your house. IF someone wants to use emt conduit, then that is the description that Guy so aptly describes. NOT a good deal. AND it isn't rated for water per code in the electrical code either. I have seen where squirrels somehow managed to work the metal conduit hard enough with the weather helping, to access the coax inside.. they didn't much like the sticky goo inside.. but that didn't stop them from eating enough to short the coax.. and of course Muphy made it an intermittent short. Have a great day, --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy "Actions speak louder than words" 1856 - Abraham Lincoln From: guyk...@gmail.com <guyk...@gmail.com> on behalf of Guy Olinger K2AV <k2av@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 8:12 AM To: Dale Putnam Cc: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question Coming from an ancient Telco background which included keeping microwave waveguides dry for AT, unless you are willing to pressurize the conduit at one end and allow air to exit at the other, AND insure that the air is dry enough to not condensate at your coldest possible ground temperature, or run it with an unbroken slope to a point where water drains without pumping and or can be suctioned, then make these assumptions: 1) Permanent performance and very long life is desired and outweighs cost. If you move a lot and are putting up stuff at rental housing you probably need not worry. Just remember to start with new coax and cable at the new rental place. Throw away the old stuff. Then mark this read and move on to the next posting. If you think you are retiring at your place of residence, and if lucky want it to work without a worry for the next 30 years absent direct lightning strike, then read on. 2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless you specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first installed, filled with water is their most probable state. This leaves the main usefulnesses of the conduit as a) Critter protection, and b) Cable replacement, if the conduit is large enough and water-proof pull ropes are left in conduit, a method of adding or replacing cables that avoids redigging and leaving deprecated cable in the ground. These are significant long-term advantages, and many find those more than enough reason to use them. However... 3) Even in conduit all cables must have permanent, water-proof jacketing. Most cable has jacketing that is not rated for permanent submersion, meant for indoor use. Polyethelyne (PE) jacketed or hardline cable is really the only commonly available choice for coax with portions permanently submerged. Flooded is nice, but probably overkill INSIDE CONDUIT if the jacketing is PE or other permanently waterproof material. ***RG213 does NOT conform.*** Any miscellaneous plastics do not conform. There are cables manufactured with ham-uncommon materials to telephone company specifications, FOR DELIVERY TO TELCO, that have all the water stuff worked out just fine. But BEWARE knockoffs and batches for retail that mfr knows will never be sample tested by telco. Or for that matter cable that failed telco tests and was put on the retail market to recover costs. High current rotator motor leads (as opposed to control leads) should use the commonly available UG series direct-buriable power wiring available at home improvement stores. Less voltage drop, permanent and rated for wet environments. 4) splices or cable terminations should be made indoors and elevated where waterproofing failure will not allow water to get inside the PE jacketing. Some manufactured multiconductor cables will have BOTH external and internal insulation PE or teflon. Do not locate splices in conduit. You're just asking for it. Even if 9 out of 10 get away with it, be assured you will be # 10. Murphy KNOWS all you've done, knows all the contest and DXpedition dates, AND has a malevolent nature. 7
Re: Topband: underground cables question
must have to do with the annual rainfall. I too come from 30+ years in telco and radio comm. There are 12 runs of 6 in conduit between building on one campus, and a number of others around that are still dry after being there for 20+ years. And the conduit, I am speaking of is PVC TUBE.. pretty much the same stuff that carries the water into your house. IF someone wants to use emt conduit, then that is the description that Guy so aptly describes. NOT a good deal. AND it isn't rated for water per code in the electrical code either. I have seen where squirrels somehow managed to work the metal conduit hard enough with the weather helping, to access the coax inside.. they didn't much like the sticky goo inside.. but that didn't stop them from eating enough to short the coax.. and of course Muphy made it an intermittent short. Have a great day, --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy "Actions speak louder than words" 1856 - Abraham Lincoln From: guyk...@gmail.com <guyk...@gmail.com> on behalf of Guy Olinger K2AV <k2av@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 8:12 AM To: Dale Putnam Cc: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question Coming from an ancient Telco background which included keeping microwave waveguides dry for AT, unless you are willing to pressurize the conduit at one end and allow air to exit at the other, AND insure that the air is dry enough to not condensate at your coldest possible ground temperature, or run it with an unbroken slope to a point where water drains without pumping and or can be suctioned, then make these assumptions: 1) Permanent performance and very long life is desired and outweighs cost. If you move a lot and are putting up stuff at rental housing you probably need not worry. Just remember to start with new coax and cable at the new rental place. Throw away the old stuff. Then mark this read and move on to the next posting. If you think you are retiring at your place of residence, and if lucky want it to work without a worry for the next 30 years absent direct lightning strike, then read on. 2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless you specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first installed, filled with water is their most probable state. This leaves the main usefulnesses of the conduit as a) Critter protection, and b) Cable replacement, if the conduit is large enough and water-proof pull ropes are left in conduit, a method of adding or replacing cables that avoids redigging and leaving deprecated cable in the ground. These are significant long-term advantages, and many find those more than enough reason to use them. However... 3) Even in conduit all cables must have permanent, water-proof jacketing. Most cable has jacketing that is not rated for permanent submersion, meant for indoor use. Polyethelyne (PE) jacketed or hardline cable is really the only commonly available choice for coax with portions permanently submerged. Flooded is nice, but probably overkill INSIDE CONDUIT if the jacketing is PE or other permanently waterproof material. ***RG213 does NOT conform.*** Any miscellaneous plastics do not conform. There are cables manufactured with ham-uncommon materials to telephone company specifications, FOR DELIVERY TO TELCO, that have all the water stuff worked out just fine. But BEWARE knockoffs and batches for retail that mfr knows will never be sample tested by telco. Or for that matter cable that failed telco tests and was put on the retail market to recover costs. High current rotator motor leads (as opposed to control leads) should use the commonly available UG series direct-buriable power wiring available at home improvement stores. Less voltage drop, permanent and rated for wet environments. 4) splices or cable terminations should be made indoors and elevated where waterproofing failure will not allow water to get inside the PE jacketing. Some manufactured multiconductor cables will have BOTH external and internal insulation PE or teflon. Do not locate splices in conduit. You're just asking for it. Even if 9 out of 10 get away with it, be assured you will be # 10. Murphy KNOWS all you've done, knows all the contest and DXpedition dates, AND has a malevolent nature. 73, Guy K2AV On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Dale Putnam <daleput...@hotmail.com<mailto:daleput...@hotmail.com>> wrote: I agree with Ken, with only one option, and that would be if the conduit is open on both ends.. allowing free air flow thru. That situation, MAY help dry the water from sitting on the cable, depending on the average humidity at the underground temp. Warm air from inside.. to cold air outside may not work out well either. Have a great day, --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy "Actions speak louder than words" 1856 - Abraham Lincoln _
Re: Topband: underground cables question
I love it! Murphy should have a price on his head! Chuck W5PR On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 7:13 AM Guy Olinger K2AV <k2av@gmail.com> wrote: > Coming from an ancient Telco background which included keeping microwave > waveguides dry for AT, unless you are willing to pressurize the conduit > at one end and allow air to exit at the other, AND insure that the air is > dry enough to not condensate at your coldest possible ground temperature, > or run it with an unbroken slope to a point where water drains without > pumping and or can be suctioned, then make these assumptions: > > 1) Permanent performance and very long life is desired and outweighs cost. > If you move a lot and are putting up stuff at rental housing you probably > need not worry. Just remember to start with new coax and cable at the new > rental place. Throw away the old stuff. Then mark this read and move on to > the next posting. If you think you are retiring at your place of residence, > and if lucky want it to work without a worry for the next 30 years absent > direct lightning strike, then read on. > > 2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless > you specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first > installed, filled with water is their most probable state. > > This leaves the main usefulnesses of the conduit as > > a) Critter protection, and > > b) Cable replacement, if the conduit is large enough and water-proof pull > ropes are left in conduit, a method of adding or replacing cables that > avoids redigging and leaving deprecated cable in the ground. These are > significant long-term advantages, and many find those more than enough > reason to use them. However... > > 3) Even in conduit all cables must have permanent, water-proof jacketing. > Most cable has jacketing that is not rated for permanent submersion, meant > for indoor use. > > Polyethelyne (PE) jacketed or hardline cable is really the only commonly > available choice for coax with portions permanently submerged. Flooded is > nice, but probably overkill INSIDE CONDUIT if the jacketing is PE or other > permanently waterproof material. ***RG213 does NOT conform.*** Any > miscellaneous plastics do not conform. There are cables manufactured with > ham-uncommon materials to telephone company specifications, FOR DELIVERY TO > TELCO, that have all the water stuff worked out just fine. But BEWARE > knockoffs and batches for retail that mfr knows will never be sample tested > by telco. Or for that matter cable that failed telco tests and was put on > the retail market to recover costs. > > High current rotator motor leads (as opposed to control leads) should use > the commonly available UG series direct-buriable power wiring available at > home improvement stores. Less voltage drop, permanent and rated for wet > environments. > > 4) splices or cable terminations should be made indoors and elevated where > waterproofing failure will not allow water to get inside the PE jacketing. > Some manufactured multiconductor cables will have BOTH external and > internal insulation PE or teflon. Do not locate splices in conduit. You're > just asking for it. Even if 9 out of 10 get away with it, be assured you > will be # 10. Murphy KNOWS all you've done, knows all the contest and > DXpedition dates, AND has a malevolent nature. > > 73, Guy K2AV > > > On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Dale Putnam <daleput...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > > I agree with Ken, with only one option, and that would be if the conduit > > is open on both ends.. allowing free air flow thru. That situation, MAY > > help dry the water from sitting on the cable, depending on the average > > humidity at the underground temp. Warm air from inside.. to cold air > > outside may not work out well either. > > > > > > > > Have a great day, > > --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy > > > > "Actions speak louder than words" > > 1856 - Abraham Lincoln > > > > > > > > From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of Ken > Claerbout > > <k...@verizon.net> > > Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 6:19 AM > > To: topband@contesting.com > > Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question > > > > As you have found out, it's impossible to keep water out of a conduit > like > > that. I use direct bury cabling and put it directly in the ground. > > Granted the cable is flooded, but putting in back in the conduit ensures > it > > will sit in some water, something I would try to avoid. > > > > 73 > > Ken K4ZW > > > > > > --
Re: Topband: underground cables question
John, Although I didn't look up F1160 BEF, if it's basically flooded RG-6 (and therefore suitable for direct burial) then Just Do It! ;-) I use Commscope F6 dual- and quad-shield flooded coax at my QTH. It's the electrical equivalent of RG-6 coax with aluminum shielding and a copper-clad 18 AWG steel center conductor meant for CATV use. *It has the same loss as RG-213 and is rated for continuous use at 1500 watts* (which I have done for years) on 160m. The copper cladding is thick enough so as not to have significant losses as compared to solid copper. But you might want to measure the thickess with a micrometer, by scraping off *only* enough copper to expose the steel. That sticky flooding compound is hard to get off your skin; wear those thin, disposable latex surgical gloves to keep it off your fingers while you're installing the connectors. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Oct 5, 2017 3:11 AM, "John"wrote: So my question is, I have a couple of large reels of Commscope F1160 BEF flooded 75 ohm. Do you think I could put it in the same conduit which has allowed some water in or would you make alternative arrangements? I realise it a direct bury coax but appreciate advice. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: underground cables question
Coming from an ancient Telco background which included keeping microwave waveguides dry for AT, unless you are willing to pressurize the conduit at one end and allow air to exit at the other, AND insure that the air is dry enough to not condensate at your coldest possible ground temperature, or run it with an unbroken slope to a point where water drains without pumping and or can be suctioned, then make these assumptions: 1) Permanent performance and very long life is desired and outweighs cost. If you move a lot and are putting up stuff at rental housing you probably need not worry. Just remember to start with new coax and cable at the new rental place. Throw away the old stuff. Then mark this read and move on to the next posting. If you think you are retiring at your place of residence, and if lucky want it to work without a worry for the next 30 years absent direct lightning strike, then read on. 2) All conduits will fill with water. That is their NATURAL state unless you specifically and effectively mitigate it. At any time other than first installed, filled with water is their most probable state. This leaves the main usefulnesses of the conduit as a) Critter protection, and b) Cable replacement, if the conduit is large enough and water-proof pull ropes are left in conduit, a method of adding or replacing cables that avoids redigging and leaving deprecated cable in the ground. These are significant long-term advantages, and many find those more than enough reason to use them. However... 3) Even in conduit all cables must have permanent, water-proof jacketing. Most cable has jacketing that is not rated for permanent submersion, meant for indoor use. Polyethelyne (PE) jacketed or hardline cable is really the only commonly available choice for coax with portions permanently submerged. Flooded is nice, but probably overkill INSIDE CONDUIT if the jacketing is PE or other permanently waterproof material. ***RG213 does NOT conform.*** Any miscellaneous plastics do not conform. There are cables manufactured with ham-uncommon materials to telephone company specifications, FOR DELIVERY TO TELCO, that have all the water stuff worked out just fine. But BEWARE knockoffs and batches for retail that mfr knows will never be sample tested by telco. Or for that matter cable that failed telco tests and was put on the retail market to recover costs. High current rotator motor leads (as opposed to control leads) should use the commonly available UG series direct-buriable power wiring available at home improvement stores. Less voltage drop, permanent and rated for wet environments. 4) splices or cable terminations should be made indoors and elevated where waterproofing failure will not allow water to get inside the PE jacketing. Some manufactured multiconductor cables will have BOTH external and internal insulation PE or teflon. Do not locate splices in conduit. You're just asking for it. Even if 9 out of 10 get away with it, be assured you will be # 10. Murphy KNOWS all you've done, knows all the contest and DXpedition dates, AND has a malevolent nature. 73, Guy K2AV On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Dale Putnam <daleput...@hotmail.com> wrote: > I agree with Ken, with only one option, and that would be if the conduit > is open on both ends.. allowing free air flow thru. That situation, MAY > help dry the water from sitting on the cable, depending on the average > humidity at the underground temp. Warm air from inside.. to cold air > outside may not work out well either. > > > > Have a great day, > --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy > > "Actions speak louder than words" > 1856 - Abraham Lincoln > > > > From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of Ken Claerbout > <k...@verizon.net> > Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 6:19 AM > To: topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question > > As you have found out, it's impossible to keep water out of a conduit like > that. I use direct bury cabling and put it directly in the ground. > Granted the cable is flooded, but putting in back in the conduit ensures it > will sit in some water, something I would try to avoid. > > 73 > Ken K4ZW > > > -Original Message- > From: John <beaumo...@beaumonts.karoo.co.uk> > To: topband <topband@contesting.com> > Sent: Thu, Oct 5, 2017 4:11 am > Subject: Topband: underground cables question > > Hi all, some years ago I buried a 4 inch conduit about a foot deep in my > field , inside I run a control wire and a coax line RG213 to a 160 m > vertical the feeder was a total of 5/4 wavelength long about half of it in > the conduit, it was used as one line for a pair of verticals spaced 5/8 > wave apart. When first installed it worked very good but after a while I > noticed it dropped off and I s
Re: Topband: underground cables question
I have PVC conduits under my yard because the cables to the towers travel under landscaping and I am not able to dig things up to change or add cables. I have placed a length of half inch hose in each conduit with one end at the lowest point in each conduit. The other end of each hose comes up to the surface along with the coax lines and control cables at the base of each tower. I use a "Wet/Dry" rated shop vacuum to pull the collected water from the conduits via the hoses a couple times a year - and always each fall before the ground freezes. This technique has been working well for me for 19 years. 73 Lloyd - N9LB -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of John Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 3:11 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: underground cables question Hi all, some years ago I buried a 4 inch conduit about a foot deep in my field , inside I run a control wire and a coax line RG213 to a 160 m vertical the feeder was a total of 5/4 wavelength long about half of it in the conduit, it was used as one line for a pair of verticals spaced 5/8 wave apart. When first installed it worked very good but after a while I noticed it dropped off and I suspected water ingress. An insulation test with 1000v from my electricians test equipment showed indeed a fall in insulation resistance. So my question is I have a couple of large reels of commscope F1160 BEF flooded 75 ohm do you think I could put it in the same conduit which has allowed some water in or would you make alternative arrangements . I realise it a direct bury coax but appreciate advice. I wish to get the two verticals going again will use 1 X 3/4 line above ground 1x5/4 line part in conduit and a 1/2 wave to switch in and out above ground. regards John Beaumont G4EIM _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: underground cables question
I agree with Ken, with only one option, and that would be if the conduit is open on both ends.. allowing free air flow thru. That situation, MAY help dry the water from sitting on the cable, depending on the average humidity at the underground temp. Warm air from inside.. to cold air outside may not work out well either. Have a great day, --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy "Actions speak louder than words" 1856 - Abraham Lincoln From: Topband <topband-boun...@contesting.com> on behalf of Ken Claerbout <k...@verizon.net> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 6:19 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: underground cables question As you have found out, it's impossible to keep water out of a conduit like that. I use direct bury cabling and put it directly in the ground. Granted the cable is flooded, but putting in back in the conduit ensures it will sit in some water, something I would try to avoid. 73 Ken K4ZW -Original Message- From: John <beaumo...@beaumonts.karoo.co.uk> To: topband <topband@contesting.com> Sent: Thu, Oct 5, 2017 4:11 am Subject: Topband: underground cables question Hi all, some years ago I buried a 4 inch conduit about a foot deep in my field , inside I run a control wire and a coax line RG213 to a 160 m vertical the feeder was a total of 5/4 wavelength long about half of it in the conduit, it was used as one line for a pair of verticals spaced 5/8 wave apart. When first installed it worked very good but after a while I noticed it dropped off and I suspected water ingress. An insulation test with 1000v from my electricians test equipment showed indeed a fall in insulation resistance. So my question is I have a couple of large reels of commscope F1160 BEF flooded 75 ohm do you think I could put it in the same conduit which has allowed some water in or would you make alternative arrangements . I realise it a direct bury coax but appreciate advice. I wish to get the two verticals going again will use 1 X 3/4 line above ground 1x5/4 line part in conduit and a 1/2 wave to switch in and out above ground. regards John Beaumont G4EIM _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home<http://www.contesting.com/_topband> www.contesting.com Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display: ... _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband Topband Archives - Contesting Online Home<http://www.contesting.com/_topband> www.contesting.com Topband Mailing List Archives. Search String: [How to search] Display: ... _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband