Re: Topband: 160 4 SQUARE
And I had a great time in the winter TBDXC a couple of years ago QRP using the antennas at Mike's 160 farm. The TX array works very good. tnx Mike / W5JR Alpharetta GA > On Aug 28, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Mike Greenway wrote: > > Greg, N4CC,, I have been using something similar to what you are describing > for about 10 years. I have 140 ft of Rohn 25 with all Phillystrand guys. > The 4 verticals are supported by nylon cords running from the top of the > tower. The height of the tower allows me to have 90 ft verticals plus around > 45 ft top hats at the proper spacing between verticals. I am using a Comtek > phasing box. At present around 40 135 ft radials on each vertical. I never > detuned the tower as the F/B and F/S have always been excellent so I did not > see the need. I did look into it but decided to leave as it was. It has been > a very competitive transmit system. If you need any further details contact > me. 73 Mike K4PI > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: 160 4 square
I am fortunate in that I have a Hi-Z 8 and a Waller Flag on a 32 foot boom at 95 feet. I use them in Diversity Receive with K-3. The results has been excellent here in Atlanta using a 100 ft 45G shunt fed tower for TX. 73, John, W4NU Atlanta Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 28, 2017, at 4:50 PM, JC wrote: > > Hi Lee > > > > I remember it very well, but my comparison with the 8 circle is compatible > with the RDF, the WF has 11.5 db and the 8 circle can be close to 13 db RDF > and it is a winner, that 1.5 db EDF does make a difference, based on my > measurements, the improvement on signal to noise ratio could be 3 to 6 db > improvement. > > > > We slowly have more stations in land. Like K9CT( Illinois) and K9UWA > (Indiana), then we have Pennsylvania K3LR and WE3C, Wal in West Virginia > W8LRL and John W4UN in Georgia. The performance on 80m has being very solid > on all of them, on 160m very similar as well. I agree with you, there are > lots of things to learn about horizontal propagation on top band, every year > is somehow different. Beverages have been around for almost a century but the > WF for only a decade and only one year and half on central states, nothing > in West coast yet. > > My experience following several WF installations, is that depends on the > number of vertical structures on the site, some stations have difficult to > try to detune all towers. One point is common, good ground system is a must > and does help to keep common mode noise low. > > > > The last six month has been quite difficult for me, but things are getting > back to normal. Bod will get his antennas very soon. Family, Work and Radio > but health was been some complex with my vertigo problem. I am really way > behind schedule here. > > > > > > 73’s > > JC > > N4IS > > > > > > From: Lee STRAHAN [mailto:k7...@msn.com] > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 12:46 PM > To: n...@yahoo.com; JC ; 'GaryK9GS' ; > 'Greg' ; 'topband' > Subject: RE: Topband: 160 4 square > > > > Good morning all, > > What I can tell you about the two antennas for 160 meter receiving is > that as many have said before, you cannot have too many receiving antennas > for 160 meters. Before Dale N4NN became ill and passed, Dale and I maintained > near daily contact. Dale had the Hi-Z 8 element with very little local noise. > We always quietly compared his station with what you were reporting JC. As > near as I could tell in the Florida area the two antennas were very close to > each other. Most often both antennas would hear the same signals. > > There are a couple more contest stations that actually have both a > horizontal Waller flag and a Hi-Z 4-8pro or 8A 8 circle. In one case the > verticals are the preferred and in the other the word is you need both > antennas. My opinion, I think it depends quite a bit on station location. > That is, I think on stations near the ocean coasts the horizontal Waller flag > hears very well. Again, my opinion but I don’t think it works as well in the > mid lands or receiving over long stretches of land. Eventually we will have > enough history to really know for sure if one or the other is better. Again, > there is likely advantages to either one at different times or locations. > Suffice to say there is lots left to be learned > >In that regard, some stations have reported the Hi-Z full sized 8 circle > to not quite have enough sensitivity in really quiet background noise areas. > I have developed a means to reduce the noise figure of that array very > significantly and the first beta test users are reporting a definite > improvement to the standard Hi-Z 200 foot 8 circle on 160 meters for those > fortunate enough to have a really quiet location. > > Lee K7TJR > > > > From: Bob Kupps [mailto:n...@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 5:58 AM > To: JC mailto:n...@comcast.net> >; 'Lee STRAHAN' > mailto:k7...@msn.com> >; 'GaryK9GS' <mailto:garyk...@wi.rr.com> >; 'Greg' <mailto:n...@windstream.net> >; 'topband' <mailto:topband@contesting.com> > > Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square > > > > Well I ordered one about half a year ago so if it ever comes I will be able > to compare it directly with my HiZ 8 circle array and get a definitive > answer. We have no local noise here only propagated tropical QRN. > > > > 73 Bob HS0ZIA > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: 160 4 SQUARE
Greg, N4CC,, I have been using something similar to what you are describing for about 10 years. I have 140 ft of Rohn 25 with all Phillystrand guys. The 4 verticals are supported by nylon cords running from the top of the tower. The height of the tower allows me to have 90 ft verticals plus around 45 ft top hats at the proper spacing between verticals. I am using a Comtek phasing box. At present around 40 135 ft radials on each vertical. I never detuned the tower as the F/B and F/S have always been excellent so I did not see the need. I did look into it but decided to leave as it was. It has been a very competitive transmit system. If you need any further details contact me. 73 Mike K4PI _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: 160 4 square
Hi Lee I remember it very well, but my comparison with the 8 circle is compatible with the RDF, the WF has 11.5 db and the 8 circle can be close to 13 db RDF and it is a winner, that 1.5 db EDF does make a difference, based on my measurements, the improvement on signal to noise ratio could be 3 to 6 db improvement. We slowly have more stations in land. Like K9CT( Illinois) and K9UWA (Indiana), then we have Pennsylvania K3LR and WE3C, Wal in West Virginia W8LRL and John W4UN in Georgia. The performance on 80m has being very solid on all of them, on 160m very similar as well. I agree with you, there are lots of things to learn about horizontal propagation on top band, every year is somehow different. Beverages have been around for almost a century but the WF for only a decade and only one year and half on central states, nothing in West coast yet. My experience following several WF installations, is that depends on the number of vertical structures on the site, some stations have difficult to try to detune all towers. One point is common, good ground system is a must and does help to keep common mode noise low. The last six month has been quite difficult for me, but things are getting back to normal. Bod will get his antennas very soon. Family, Work and Radio but health was been some complex with my vertigo problem. I am really way behind schedule here. 73’s JC N4IS From: Lee STRAHAN [mailto:k7...@msn.com] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 12:46 PM To: n...@yahoo.com; JC ; 'GaryK9GS' ; 'Greg' ; 'topband' Subject: RE: Topband: 160 4 square Good morning all, What I can tell you about the two antennas for 160 meter receiving is that as many have said before, you cannot have too many receiving antennas for 160 meters. Before Dale N4NN became ill and passed, Dale and I maintained near daily contact. Dale had the Hi-Z 8 element with very little local noise. We always quietly compared his station with what you were reporting JC. As near as I could tell in the Florida area the two antennas were very close to each other. Most often both antennas would hear the same signals. There are a couple more contest stations that actually have both a horizontal Waller flag and a Hi-Z 4-8pro or 8A 8 circle. In one case the verticals are the preferred and in the other the word is you need both antennas. My opinion, I think it depends quite a bit on station location. That is, I think on stations near the ocean coasts the horizontal Waller flag hears very well. Again, my opinion but I don’t think it works as well in the mid lands or receiving over long stretches of land. Eventually we will have enough history to really know for sure if one or the other is better. Again, there is likely advantages to either one at different times or locations. Suffice to say there is lots left to be learned In that regard, some stations have reported the Hi-Z full sized 8 circle to not quite have enough sensitivity in really quiet background noise areas. I have developed a means to reduce the noise figure of that array very significantly and the first beta test users are reporting a definite improvement to the standard Hi-Z 200 foot 8 circle on 160 meters for those fortunate enough to have a really quiet location. Lee K7TJR From: Bob Kupps [mailto:n...@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 5:58 AM To: JC mailto:n...@comcast.net> >; 'Lee STRAHAN' mailto:k7...@msn.com> >; 'GaryK9GS' mailto:garyk...@wi.rr.com> >; 'Greg' mailto:n...@windstream.net> >; 'topband' mailto:topband@contesting.com> > Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square Well I ordered one about half a year ago so if it ever comes I will be able to compare it directly with my HiZ 8 circle array and get a definitive answer. We have no local noise here only propagated tropical QRN. 73 Bob HS0ZIA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: 160 4 square
Good morning all, What I can tell you about the two antennas for 160 meter receiving is that as many have said before, you cannot have too many receiving antennas for 160 meters. Before Dale N4NN became ill and passed, Dale and I maintained near daily contact. Dale had the Hi-Z 8 element with very little local noise. We always quietly compared his station with what you were reporting JC. As near as I could tell in the Florida area the two antennas were very close to each other. Most often both antennas would hear the same signals. There are a couple more contest stations that actually have both a horizontal Waller flag and a Hi-Z 4-8pro or 8A 8 circle. In one case the verticals are the preferred and in the other the word is you need both antennas. My opinion, I think it depends quite a bit on station location. That is, I think on stations near the ocean coasts the horizontal Waller flag hears very well. Again, my opinion but I don’t think it works as well in the mid lands or receiving over long stretches of land. Eventually we will have enough history to really know for sure if one or the other is better. Again, there is likely advantages to either one at different times or locations. Suffice to say there is lots left to be learned In that regard, some stations have reported the Hi-Z full sized 8 circle to not quite have enough sensitivity in really quiet background noise areas. I have developed a means to reduce the noise figure of that array very significantly and the first beta test users are reporting a definite improvement to the standard Hi-Z 200 foot 8 circle on 160 meters for those fortunate enough to have a really quiet location. Lee K7TJR From: Bob Kupps [mailto:n...@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 5:58 AM To: JC ; 'Lee STRAHAN' ; 'GaryK9GS' ; 'Greg' ; 'topband' Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square Well I ordered one about half a year ago so if it ever comes I will be able to compare it directly with my HiZ 8 circle array and get a definitive answer. We have no local noise here only propagated tropical QRN. 73 Bob HS0ZIA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: 160 4 square
Well I ordered one about half a year ago so if it ever comes I will be able to compare it directly with my HiZ 8 circle array and get a definitive answer. We have no local noise here only propagated tropical QRN. 73 Bob HS0ZIA Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 18:56, JC wrote: Hi Lee Good question, The HWF has a deep null on vertical signals, propagated noise like ground wave can be attenuated over 80 db. The tower on the center of the WF does have little effect adding noise into the HF. Actually the WF load the tower and lower the resonance as result. I detained my tower in 2006 when I started to use my vertical WF, called Big Waller Flag by Doug. I never noticed any interaction with the HWF from 2009 to 2015. I used a local BC signal as reference to detune the tower and take polar plot diagram. The noise during the day on my WF is always zero. It means below the sensitivity of my receiver system near 1 db NF. Two year ago I had a power line noise very close to my home, 500ft or less, I posted a video about the contest under that kind of QRM. With that QRM I noticed some noise during the day. Pete N8PR come to help me to check it and we adjust the tuning capacitor and I was able to remove 6 more db of noise fining de-tuning the tower, Just a reference I was using 35 pf and after I removed it, 0pf) I got -6bd of noise reduction, Whiteout the strong local QRM I was not able to notice it before. Detuning the tower can bring -20 to -30 db noise re-radiation, but re-radiation is not zero, Some HF antennas sharing the same mast with a WF can interact with the WF on the same frequency, balance is the name of the game. Unbalanced loops cannot cancel 100% of the noise, but the interaction in most case are not severe with HF beam and good performance is expected in most installations. However Inverted V and re-radiate almost 2 s units of noise and must be detuned open fiscally the wires near the coaxial feed line or balun. The advantage of a horizontal antenna besides noise is the horizontal propagation on low bands, Refraction is more intense on 160m than 40m, it means the signal bent more on the topband, as a result the path for horizontal signal is not the same as vertical polarized signals, It is common to see signals from deep Asia, Nodir as example EY8MM signal direct is 10 degree here but several times I can hear only between 60 and 90 degree when there is no copy from 10 degree. Long path or really SSW SSE propagation is another propagation mechanist that brings the signal horizontal most of the time. On 80m I can hear south Asia HS0 XU 9M2 almost every day during the DX season, 160 is very common SSE SSW as well. I can compare the difference with my Vertical WF and also with other folks in Florida , like Doug NX4D that's uses only vertical pol, during 2010 when the SSE SSW was very strong I could hear XU7ACY 80% is the time and Doug only 5 % of the time. Vertical signals are always strong, as well the noise. Sometimes there are not horizontal signals as well. However I manage to work almost DX expeditions like VK0,E31,H40,FT4, 3D0A, ET, VP8's,EP FT5ZM, 9M0 , I missed only H44 due QRN. I was not able to work YB, BY JT XX9 XV XW and few others SSE/SSW path on 160m, 80m is so easy SSE SSW that signals can be hear 2 hours after sunrise, and sometime 2 hours before sunset. Regards JC N4IS -Original Message- From: Lee STRAHAN [mailto:k7...@msn.com] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 2:03 AM To: JC ; 'GaryK9GS' ; 'Greg' ; 'topband' Subject: RE: Topband: 160 4 square Hello All JC, Greg knows quite a bit about receiving on 160 meters as he has had a Hi-Z 8 element array for some years now. Actually he has done quite well with it. Especially when he was neighbors with our dear departed friend N4NN in Florida. JC, I have a question. If the Waller flag does not respond to vertical signals why do you have to detune your vertical tower? The second part of my question is if you do not have any local power line noises covering vertical signals what advantage would a horizontal RX antenna be? Lee K7TJR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of JC Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 8:05 PM To: 'GaryK9GS' ; 'Greg' ; 'topband' Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square HI Greg You need to detune the tower and the 4 square will work fine. But if you want to have a good RX you need a Horizontal Waller Flag at 140ft or more. You can see the two webinars about Waller Flag at www.wwrof.org archives http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/n4is-waller-flag-construction/ http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/high-performance-rx-antennas-for-a-small-lo t/ Doug NX4D 160m DXCC is # 304 confirmed, from a 1/5 acre lot, I started 3 years later with a Waller Flag and am at #293 confirmed. I sure mist a 4 square for TX ,. because since 2006 I've heard 316 coun
Re: Topband: 160 4 square
Hi Lee Good question, The HWF has a deep null on vertical signals, propagated noise like ground wave can be attenuated over 80 db. The tower on the center of the WF does have little effect adding noise into the HF. Actually the WF load the tower and lower the resonance as result. I detained my tower in 2006 when I started to use my vertical WF, called Big Waller Flag by Doug. I never noticed any interaction with the HWF from 2009 to 2015. I used a local BC signal as reference to detune the tower and take polar plot diagram. The noise during the day on my WF is always zero. It means below the sensitivity of my receiver system near 1 db NF. Two year ago I had a power line noise very close to my home, 500ft or less, I posted a video about the contest under that kind of QRM. With that QRM I noticed some noise during the day. Pete N8PR come to help me to check it and we adjust the tuning capacitor and I was able to remove 6 more db of noise fining de-tuning the tower, Just a reference I was using 35 pf and after I removed it, 0pf) I got -6bd of noise reduction, Whiteout the strong local QRM I was not able to notice it before. Detuning the tower can bring -20 to -30 db noise re-radiation, but re-radiation is not zero, Some HF antennas sharing the same mast with a WF can interact with the WF on the same frequency, balance is the name of the game. Unbalanced loops cannot cancel 100% of the noise, but the interaction in most case are not severe with HF beam and good performance is expected in most installations. However Inverted V and re-radiate almost 2 s units of noise and must be detuned open fiscally the wires near the coaxial feed line or balun. The advantage of a horizontal antenna besides noise is the horizontal propagation on low bands, Refraction is more intense on 160m than 40m, it means the signal bent more on the topband, as a result the path for horizontal signal is not the same as vertical polarized signals, It is common to see signals from deep Asia, Nodir as example EY8MM signal direct is 10 degree here but several times I can hear only between 60 and 90 degree when there is no copy from 10 degree. Long path or really SSW SSE propagation is another propagation mechanist that brings the signal horizontal most of the time. On 80m I can hear south Asia HS0 XU 9M2 almost every day during the DX season, 160 is very common SSE SSW as well. I can compare the difference with my Vertical WF and also with other folks in Florida , like Doug NX4D that's uses only vertical pol, during 2010 when the SSE SSW was very strong I could hear XU7ACY 80% is the time and Doug only 5 % of the time. Vertical signals are always strong, as well the noise. Sometimes there are not horizontal signals as well. However I manage to work almost DX expeditions like VK0,E31,H40,FT4, 3D0A, ET, VP8's,EP FT5ZM, 9M0 , I missed only H44 due QRN. I was not able to work YB, BY JT XX9 XV XW and few others SSE/SSW path on 160m, 80m is so easy SSE SSW that signals can be hear 2 hours after sunrise, and sometime 2 hours before sunset. Regards JC N4IS -Original Message- From: Lee STRAHAN [mailto:k7...@msn.com] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 2:03 AM To: JC ; 'GaryK9GS' ; 'Greg' ; 'topband' Subject: RE: Topband: 160 4 square Hello All JC, Greg knows quite a bit about receiving on 160 meters as he has had a Hi-Z 8 element array for some years now. Actually he has done quite well with it. Especially when he was neighbors with our dear departed friend N4NN in Florida. JC, I have a question. If the Waller flag does not respond to vertical signals why do you have to detune your vertical tower? The second part of my question is if you do not have any local power line noises covering vertical signals what advantage would a horizontal RX antenna be? LeeK7TJR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of JC Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 8:05 PM To: 'GaryK9GS' ; 'Greg' ; 'topband' Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square HI Greg You need to detune the tower and the 4 square will work fine. But if you want to have a good RX you need a Horizontal Waller Flag at 140ft or more. You can see the two webinars about Waller Flag at www.wwrof.org archives http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/n4is-waller-flag-construction/ http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/high-performance-rx-antennas-for-a-small-lo t/ Doug NX4D 160m DXCC is # 304 confirmed, from a 1/5 acre lot, I started 3 years later with a Waller Flag and am at #293 confirmed. I sure mist a 4 square for TX ,. because since 2006 I've heard 316 countries on 160m from my acre city lot in Fort Lauderdale on the last 10 years. Noise is very high here on the city The best way you can destroy the station for RX on low bands is to use elevated radials and NOT DETUNE IT during RX. The concept is simple! All your wires makes only one receiving system. It is n
Re: Topband: 160 4 square
Hello and here start the big problem. Seems detuning towers is not simple, and no comercial way to do that, and you need to be very smart to do it. Many people talking about detuning tower, then when you ask, very little are kind to help and you need to have some knowledge to do it 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W 2017-08-28 0:05 GMT-03:00 JC : > HI Greg > > You need to detune the tower and the 4 square will work fine. But if you > want to have a good RX you need a Horizontal Waller Flag at 140ft or more. > > You can see the two webinars about Waller Flag at www.wwrof.org archives > > http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/n4is-waller-flag-construction/ > > http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/high-performance-rx- > antennas-for-a-small-lot/ > > Doug NX4D 160m DXCC is # 304 confirmed, from a 1/5 acre lot, I started 3 > years later with a Waller Flag and am at #293 confirmed. I sure mist a 4 > square for TX ,. because since 2006 I've heard 316 countries on 160m from > my acre city lot in Fort Lauderdale on the last 10 years. > > Noise is very high here on the city > > The best way you can destroy the station for RX on low bands is to use > elevated radials and NOT DETUNE IT during RX. > > The concept is simple! All your wires makes only one receiving system. It > is necessity to keep all of them clean. > > Performance is subjective, if you have nothing to compare you never know > what you are missing. > > If you listen only vertical you are missing 50% of the band. > > Regards > JC > N4IS > > > -Original Message- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of > GaryK9GS > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 5:51 PM > To: Greg ; 'topband' > Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square > > Take a look at the K3LR website. This is essentially what Tim does, only > instead of a 4-square, his array is a 5 element parasitic array with three > active elements. K3LR just gave a presentation on his station this weekend > for the Society of Midwest Contesters and this was mentioned. > > > 73, > Gary K9GS > Original message From: Greg Date: > 8/27/17 1:56 PM (GMT-06:00) To: 'topband' > Subject: Topband: 160 4 square Question for the group... > > From a 140 foot freestanding tower, I will suspend 4 pieces of phillystran > 90 degrees apart from the top of the tower. Antenna wire will be attached > to the phillystran such that verticals will be dropped to create a 4 square. > I will have as much vertical length as practical and still obtain the 4 > square spacing required -- but the vertical length certainly will not be > close to a quarter wave. The intent is to use the verticals as a 4 square. > In thinking of ways to increase the electrical length, should I run wire > back toward the tower from the top of the vertical section to get the full > 1/4 or use a T with wire going back toward the tower and down the > phillystran to create a "top hat" effect -- or does it matter? Obviously > this is a compromise but hopefully still an effective antenna with > directional gain. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. 73, Greg-N4CC > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_ > topband > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > -- 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: 160 4 square
Hello All JC, Greg knows quite a bit about receiving on 160 meters as he has had a Hi-Z 8 element array for some years now. Actually he has done quite well with it. Especially when he was neighbors with our dear departed friend N4NN in Florida. JC, I have a question. If the Waller flag does not respond to vertical signals why do you have to detune your vertical tower? The second part of my question is if you do not have any local power line noises covering vertical signals what advantage would a horizontal RX antenna be? LeeK7TJR -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of JC Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 8:05 PM To: 'GaryK9GS' ; 'Greg' ; 'topband' Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square HI Greg You need to detune the tower and the 4 square will work fine. But if you want to have a good RX you need a Horizontal Waller Flag at 140ft or more. You can see the two webinars about Waller Flag at www.wwrof.org archives http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/n4is-waller-flag-construction/ http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/high-performance-rx-antennas-for-a-small-lot/ Doug NX4D 160m DXCC is # 304 confirmed, from a 1/5 acre lot, I started 3 years later with a Waller Flag and am at #293 confirmed. I sure mist a 4 square for TX ,. because since 2006 I've heard 316 countries on 160m from my acre city lot in Fort Lauderdale on the last 10 years. Noise is very high here on the city The best way you can destroy the station for RX on low bands is to use elevated radials and NOT DETUNE IT during RX. The concept is simple! All your wires makes only one receiving system. It is necessity to keep all of them clean. Performance is subjective, if you have nothing to compare you never know what you are missing. If you listen only vertical you are missing 50% of the band. Regards JC N4IS -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of GaryK9GS Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 5:51 PM To: Greg ; 'topband' Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square Take a look at the K3LR website. This is essentially what Tim does, only instead of a 4-square, his array is a 5 element parasitic array with three active elements. K3LR just gave a presentation on his station this weekend for the Society of Midwest Contesters and this was mentioned. 73, Gary K9GS Original message From: Greg Date: 8/27/17 1:56 PM (GMT-06:00) To: 'topband' Subject: Topband: 160 4 square Question for the group... >From a 140 foot freestanding tower, I will suspend 4 pieces of phillystran 90 degrees apart from the top of the tower. Antenna wire will be attached to the phillystran such that verticals will be dropped to create a 4 square. I will have as much vertical length as practical and still obtain the 4 square spacing required -- but the vertical length certainly will not be close to a quarter wave. The intent is to use the verticals as a 4 square. In thinking of ways to increase the electrical length, should I run wire back toward the tower from the top of the vertical section to get the full 1/4 or use a T with wire going back toward the tower and down the phillystran to create a "top hat" effect -- or does it matter? Obviously this is a compromise but hopefully still an effective antenna with directional gain. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. 73, Greg-N4CC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: 160 4 square
HI Greg You need to detune the tower and the 4 square will work fine. But if you want to have a good RX you need a Horizontal Waller Flag at 140ft or more. You can see the two webinars about Waller Flag at www.wwrof.org archives http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/n4is-waller-flag-construction/ http://wwrof.org/webinar-archive/high-performance-rx-antennas-for-a-small-lot/ Doug NX4D 160m DXCC is # 304 confirmed, from a 1/5 acre lot, I started 3 years later with a Waller Flag and am at #293 confirmed. I sure mist a 4 square for TX ,. because since 2006 I've heard 316 countries on 160m from my acre city lot in Fort Lauderdale on the last 10 years. Noise is very high here on the city The best way you can destroy the station for RX on low bands is to use elevated radials and NOT DETUNE IT during RX. The concept is simple! All your wires makes only one receiving system. It is necessity to keep all of them clean. Performance is subjective, if you have nothing to compare you never know what you are missing. If you listen only vertical you are missing 50% of the band. Regards JC N4IS -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of GaryK9GS Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 5:51 PM To: Greg ; 'topband' Subject: Re: Topband: 160 4 square Take a look at the K3LR website. This is essentially what Tim does, only instead of a 4-square, his array is a 5 element parasitic array with three active elements. K3LR just gave a presentation on his station this weekend for the Society of Midwest Contesters and this was mentioned. 73, Gary K9GS Original message From: Greg Date: 8/27/17 1:56 PM (GMT-06:00) To: 'topband' Subject: Topband: 160 4 square Question for the group... >From a 140 foot freestanding tower, I will suspend 4 pieces of phillystran 90 degrees apart from the top of the tower. Antenna wire will be attached to the phillystran such that verticals will be dropped to create a 4 square. I will have as much vertical length as practical and still obtain the 4 square spacing required -- but the vertical length certainly will not be close to a quarter wave. The intent is to use the verticals as a 4 square. In thinking of ways to increase the electrical length, should I run wire back toward the tower from the top of the vertical section to get the full 1/4 or use a T with wire going back toward the tower and down the phillystran to create a "top hat" effect -- or does it matter? Obviously this is a compromise but hopefully still an effective antenna with directional gain. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. 73, Greg-N4CC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: 160 4 square
Many thanks to all who offered input and ideas. I'll let you know how things come out after we get the system together next month. 73, Greg-N4CC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: 160 4 square
Take a look at the K3LR website. This is essentially what Tim does, only instead of a 4-square, his array is a 5 element parasitic array with three active elements. K3LR just gave a presentation on his station this weekend for the Society of Midwest Contesters and this was mentioned. 73, Gary K9GS Original message From: Greg Date: 8/27/17 1:56 PM (GMT-06:00) To: 'topband' Subject: Topband: 160 4 square Question for the group... From a 140 foot freestanding tower, I will suspend 4 pieces of phillystran 90 degrees apart from the top of the tower. Antenna wire will be attached to the phillystran such that verticals will be dropped to create a 4 square. I will have as much vertical length as practical and still obtain the 4 square spacing required -- but the vertical length certainly will not be close to a quarter wave. The intent is to use the verticals as a 4 square. In thinking of ways to increase the electrical length, should I run wire back toward the tower from the top of the vertical section to get the full 1/4 or use a T with wire going back toward the tower and down the phillystran to create a "top hat" effect -- or does it matter? Obviously this is a compromise but hopefully still an effective antenna with directional gain. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. 73, Greg-N4CC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: 160 4 square
Your tower may act as a reflector if ground at the base . If un-grounded,, then no problem. Could take many hours on the tower to work out problems. Its easier to spend the hours with a modeling program while on the ground. W7EL Roy Lewallen P.O. box 66958 Beaverton, OR 97007 Roy sells antenna modeling programs. If someone else does the modeling for you, unseen factors may be left out. 73 Bruce-k1fz On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 12:56:44 -0600, "Greg" wrote: Question for the group... From a 140 foot freestanding tower, I will suspend 4 pieces of phillystran 90 degrees apart from the top of the tower. Antenna wire will be attached to the phillystran such that verticals will be dropped to create a 4 square. I will have as much vertical length as practical and still obtain the 4 square spacing required -- but the vertical length certainly will not be close to a quarter wave. The intent is to use the verticals as a 4 square. In thinking of ways to increase the electrical length, should I run wire back toward the tower from the top of the vertical section to get the full 1/4 or use a T with wire going back toward the tower and down the phillystran to create a "top hat" effect -- or does it matter? Obviously this is a compromise but hopefully still an effective antenna with directional gain. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. 73, Greg-N4CC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: 160 4 square
Question for the group... >From a 140 foot freestanding tower, I will suspend 4 pieces of phillystran 90 degrees apart from the top of the tower. Antenna wire will be attached to the phillystran such that verticals will be dropped to create a 4 square. I will have as much vertical length as practical and still obtain the 4 square spacing required -- but the vertical length certainly will not be close to a quarter wave. The intent is to use the verticals as a 4 square. In thinking of ways to increase the electrical length, should I run wire back toward the tower from the top of the vertical section to get the full 1/4 or use a T with wire going back toward the tower and down the phillystran to create a "top hat" effect -- or does it matter? Obviously this is a compromise but hopefully still an effective antenna with directional gain. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. 73, Greg-N4CC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
