Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-09 Thread Roger Parsons


Ashton Lee wrote:

"The issue I believe is that many people’s 160 antennas are limited in 
frequency 
breadth. There is really just one SSB contest."


Many 80m antennas will not cover both the CW and phone parts of that band, and 
people manage quite fine there. It is entirely possible to make a 160m antenna 
work all across the band but it's just a little more complicated. I don't see 
that as a reason, but an excuse.


With respect, there are at least two major 160m phone contests - CQWW phone and 
CQ 160m phone. 


73 Roger
VE3ZI

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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-09 Thread Ashton Lee
The issue I believe is that many people’s 160 antennas are limited in frequency 
breadth.

There is really just one SSB contest.


On Dec 9, 2013, at 7:55 AM, Roger Parsons  wrote:

> I agree with the remarks made by others regarding the DX window in the ARRL 
> contest.
> 
> I have been more concerned for many years about the various phone contests 
> which take place on 160m. During those contests phone operation takes place 
> right down to the bottom of the band, effectively making any CW operation 
> impossible during those weekends. Last year one ssb contest coincided with a 
> Dxpedtion to 9U - an exceptionally rare country on 160m. Whilst it is true 
> that there are only a few phone contests on the calendar, it is also true 
> that there are only a few weekends where exceptional conditions happen, 
> particularly during sunspot maxima.
> 
> 
> Frequency allocations on top band vary from country to country, but it is 
> generally true to say that the 'prime real estate' for phone operation is 
> from 1830 - 1850 kHz, with the 1810 - 1830 kHz segment being next most 
> desirable. Very few countries allow phone (or any) operation below 1810 kHz. 
> A significant number of countries (particularly North America) also allow 
> operation all the way up to 2 MHz..
> 
> Even in the busiest contests it is rare to hear any operation above 1900 kHz.
> 
> It would be nice if the regulations were changed (particularly in NA) to 
> limit the permissible frequencies for ssb, but I think we all know that will 
> never happen.
> 
> However, contest organisers can very easily define the allowable frequency 
> bands for each individual contest, and as has been mentioned by others this 
> is already done for some (particularly European) contests.
> 
> I would like to propose that phone contests disallow the use on ssb of any 
> frequency below a dial frequency of 1820 kHz. That leaves 8 kHz of 
> international frequencies for CW operation whilst still giving the ssb 
> contesters 32 kHz of the 'prime real estate' - and 150 kHz of the apparently 
> less desirable frequencies above 150 kHz.
> 
> I did suggest this on the contest reflector last year and was immediately 
> flamed, but I honestly think this would be an attainable and reasonable 
> compromise.
> 
> 73 Roger
> VE3ZI
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> 

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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-09 Thread Roger Parsons
I agree with the remarks made by others regarding the DX window in the ARRL 
contest.

I have been more concerned for many years about the various phone contests 
which take place on 160m. During those contests phone operation takes place 
right down to the bottom of the band, effectively making any CW operation 
impossible during those weekends. Last year one ssb contest coincided with a 
Dxpedtion to 9U - an exceptionally rare country on 160m. Whilst it is true that 
there are only a few phone contests on the calendar, it is also true that there 
are only a few weekends where exceptional conditions happen, particularly 
during sunspot maxima.


Frequency allocations on top band vary from country to country, but it is 
generally true to say that the 'prime real estate' for phone operation is from 
1830 - 1850 kHz, with the 1810 - 1830 kHz segment being next most desirable. 
Very few countries allow phone (or any) operation below 1810 kHz. A significant 
number of countries (particularly North America) also allow operation all the 
way up to 2 MHz..

Even in the busiest contests it is rare to hear any operation above 1900 kHz.

It would be nice if the regulations were changed (particularly in NA) to limit 
the permissible frequencies for ssb, but I think we all know that will never 
happen.

However, contest organisers can very easily define the allowable frequency 
bands for each individual contest, and as has been mentioned by others this is 
already done for some (particularly European) contests.

I would like to propose that phone contests disallow the use on ssb of any 
frequency below a dial frequency of 1820 kHz. That leaves 8 kHz of 
international frequencies for CW operation whilst still giving the ssb 
contesters 32 kHz of the 'prime real estate' - and 150 kHz of the apparently 
less desirable frequencies above 150 kHz.

I did suggest this on the contest reflector last year and was immediately 
flamed, but I honestly think this would be an attainable and reasonable 
compromise.

73 Roger
VE3ZI
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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-08 Thread Ron Feutz

A..Mennn...

-Original Message- 
From: Tom W8JI

Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 2:55 PM
To: j...@johnjeanantiqueradio.com ; Topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: DX Window

If you put a couple dozen strong EU stations CQ'ing in the Window then 
they

can hardly hear the USA callers as they are all QRM'ing each other.

"Back in the Day" many of the QSO's were done Split due to power limits in
many countries as well as frequency allocation in many countries. Then the
"Window" made a bit more sense.



A Window still makes absolute sense today. Power levels did not change a
thing, because power went up on both ends of the path. Most of Europe
increased around 16dB, and the USA increased around 12dB. Since the Window's
function is to limit local QRM, and since local and DX signals are stronger
by about the same amount, nothing changed with power.


From past experience here, simplex or a non-window plan is only a good idea

for people who have clear shots, or people who rarely or never work DX on
crowded nights. By clear shots, I mean people who are located where very few
strong signals are between them and the DX.

I thought the entire 160 bandplan group made a tremendous mistake in getting
rid of the DX Window. I believe the plan failed to consider anyone's
interest, other than the viewpoint large east coast stations. Since most of
the influence is from east coast stations and big guns, the people away from
the coast, in particular with smaller or modest stations, are out of luck.

73 Tom

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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-08 Thread n...@juno.com
I support the concept of a 'quiet' area, for weak signals.
I am also a realistic, and competitive contester.
I cannot control what OTHERS do, but I consider calling CQ in the DX window 
akin to cheating.  You will never hear ME do that.  Unfortunately, I have to 
QSO stations that do, or else face a self-imposed penalization.  In these days 
of Cabrillo logging, it would be an easy task to eliminate all same-continent 
QSO's from contest credit, if they violated the stated rules of the contest.  
Then the problem is partially solved.  Only peer pressure can discourage strong 
DX signals from squatting there, perhaps by a widespread feeling that it is an 
unnecessary 'crutch' and only for listening for your antipode.  Careful, if you 
allow the concept of a 'window' into your mind, it will migrate to your heart 
before you know it.

There is also an interesting trend, in Europe at least, for contest-free band 
segments.  Below 3510 or above 3560, for example.  Presumably, there must be 
either monitors, or computerized log analysis (probably both.)  As long as all 
competitors play by the same rules, it meets MY definition of 'fair.'

Hey, I don't even have all of the questions, let alone the answers.

Allen - N2KW

-- Original Message ------
From: "Tom W8JI" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Topband: DX Window
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 

>> According to http://www.arrl.org/160-meter "The segment 1.830 to 1.835
>> should be used for intercontinental QSOs only." I hear a lot of contacts
>> being made between stateside stations.

The rule is very easy to understand.

When operating between 1830-1835, all stations cannot work other stations on 
the same continent as they are on. This rule does not preclude USA or VE 
stations from CQ'ing in that range, but it certainly does prohibit NA-to-NA 
contacts. Despite people thinking DX Windows are for listening only, there 
was never a rule like that. They only preclude local or same-continent 
contacts.

NA and SA are considered the same continent, but for a Ham radio ARRL 
contest most reasonable people would use the ARRL/IARU continent list.

The problem today is, with our decreased overall education and desire for 
freedom, people in the USA think cities are continents and any  rule against 
what we feel like doing is a bad rule.  Good luck on getting any rule made 
clearer.:) 

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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-08 Thread W2RU - Bud Hippisley
On Dec 8, 2013, at 3:00 06PM, Mark Lunday, WD4ELG,  wrote:

> Well, we always have the CQ 160 contest in January.  

Exactly!

All contests do not need to be the same.  All contests should NOT be the same.  
All contests do not need to emphasize international DXing -- especially a 
single-band contest that leaves all sorts of other spectrum available for DXing.

Bud, W2RU
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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-08 Thread Eddy Swynar
It's always refreshing to tune the window & hear the odd DX station, or two, 
residing therein, & working many of the "...less-than-KW" domestic stations...

A welcome change from the usual hurly-burly of strong North American "CQ TEST" 
machines that otherwise permeate the entire band, wall-to-wall.

~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ
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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-08 Thread Tom W8JI
If you put a couple dozen strong EU stations CQ'ing in the Window then 
they

can hardly hear the USA callers as they are all QRM'ing each other.

"Back in the Day" many of the QSO's were done Split due to power limits in
many countries as well as frequency allocation in many countries. Then the
"Window" made a bit more sense.



A Window still makes absolute sense today. Power levels did not change a 
thing, because power went up on both ends of the path. Most of Europe 
increased around 16dB, and the USA increased around 12dB. Since the Window's 
function is to limit local QRM, and since local and DX signals are stronger 
by about the same amount, nothing changed with power.


From past experience here, simplex or a non-window plan is only a good idea 
for people who have clear shots, or people who rarely or never work DX on 
crowded nights. By clear shots, I mean people who are located where very few 
strong signals are between them and the DX.


I thought the entire 160 bandplan group made a tremendous mistake in getting 
rid of the DX Window. I believe the plan failed to consider anyone's 
interest, other than the viewpoint large east coast stations. Since most of 
the influence is from east coast stations and big guns, the people away from 
the coast, in particular with smaller or modest stations, are out of luck.


73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-08 Thread John K9UWA
If you put a couple dozen strong EU stations CQ'ing in the Window then they 
can hardly hear the USA callers as they are all QRM'ing each other. 

"Back in the Day" many of the QSO's were done Split due to power limits in 
many countries as well as frequency allocation in many countries. Then the 
"Window" made a bit more sense.

John k9uwa
John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF 
Antique Radio Restorations
k9...@arrl.net
Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426


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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-08 Thread Tom W8JI

According to http://www.arrl.org/160-meter "The segment 1.830 to 1.835
should be used for intercontinental QSOs only." I hear a lot of contacts
being made between stateside stations.


The rule is very easy to understand.

When operating between 1830-1835, all stations cannot work other stations on 
the same continent as they are on. This rule does not preclude USA or VE 
stations from CQ'ing in that range, but it certainly does prohibit NA-to-NA 
contacts. Despite people thinking DX Windows are for listening only, there 
was never a rule like that. They only preclude local or same-continent 
contacts.


NA and SA are considered the same continent, but for a Ham radio ARRL 
contest most reasonable people would use the ARRL/IARU continent list.


The problem today is, with our decreased overall education and desire for 
freedom, people in the USA think cities are continents and any  rule against 
what we feel like doing is a bad rule.  Good luck on getting any rule made 
clearer.:) 


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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-08 Thread Jim Garland
I agree completely with Bud's take on the contest. This was my first year of
participating and I found the rules unclear and  poorly written.In fact,
until a friend corrected my misunderstanding, I hadn't even understtod that
USA-USA contacts were allowed. The official "objective" of the contest says
" For Amateurs worldwide to exchange information with W/VE amateurs on
160-meter CW." I (mistakenly) interpreted "amateurs worldwide" to mean
non-USA stations, and that the  goal for them was to work as many USA
stations as possible.  I also observed that the supposed DX window was a
sham, with USA stations monopolizing the 1830-1835 window, even after other
stations reminded them that it was reserved for DX. (Seems like the ARRL
contest software could automatically penalize participants for non-DX
contacts in the window.)

My personal goal in the contest was to work DX, in order to test my new 1/4
wave transmitting antenna and build up my 160m DXCC total. My antenna worked
great, and I worked every DX station I could hear, usually on the first
call. Unfortunately, that was only about 20 stations. Admittedly, conditions
weren't good, but my impression is that the international DX community
pretty much ignores this contest, and for good reason. With every part of
the spectrum monopolized by USA contesters, there's no way they could break
through the clutter.

Frankly, I think the entire concept of this contest needs to be reasssessed.
There's really no point in awarding points for DX-USA contacts, if there's
only a miniscule DX participation. Better just to make it a ARRL/RAC section
contest, the objective of which is to build interest and drum up activity on
the band. 

73,
Jim W8ZR

> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of W2RU -
Bud
> Hippisley
> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 5:59 AM
> To: Mike Waters
> Cc: topband
> Subject: Re: Topband: DX Window
> 
> Whatever the ARRL intent may have been, the wording of that particular
rule is defective,
> and has been for as long as I can remember.
> 
> Consider:  How does one _start_ an "intercontinental QSO"?  Usually one
party or the other
> sends "CQ".  So to make a QSO in the DX Window someone has to send "CQ
TEST" or
> self-spot, then deliberately choose not to answer anyone from his/her own
continent!  Sure
> sounds like an intelligent rule to me.  Not!
> 
> The only way I can see an "intercontinental only" rule working would be to
say something
> along the lines of "Only stations outside North America should CQ in the
DX WIndow, and
> North American stations should transmit in that window only when calling
and working
> those DX stations."
> 
> But the ARRL 160 always was -- and still is -- first and foremost an
ARRL/RAC Sections
> contest.  Given that, it's not clear why there should be _any_ rule giving
favors to
> intercontinental QSOs.  Contest rules might be better advised to simply
"prohibit" _all_
> contest contacts and their solicitation in the DX Window, so as to leave
that 5 kHz segment
> for non-contest CW DXers.
> 
> Bud, W2RU
> 
> 
> On Dec 7, 2013, at 11:34 11PM, Mike Waters  wrote:
> 
> > I see a lot of USA station, including a couple of regular contributors
to
> > this reflector, calling CQ TEST between 1830 and 1835.
> >
> > According to http://www.arrl.org/160-meter "The segment 1.830 to 1.835
> > should be used for intercontinental QSOs only." I hear a lot of contacts
> > being made between stateside stations.
> >
> > I thought this was for DX stations, and that's mostly what I've heard
call
> > CQ TEST there. Maybe someone can clarify this.  :-)
> >
> > 73, Mike
> > www.w0btu.com
> > _
> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> 
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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-08 Thread Gary Smith
I take it as that window is for DX stations to be heard without 
having to compete with the wall of sound coming from the states. I 
had a terrible time pulling some EU & AF stations when they were 
being clobbered by 20 over CQing signals from stateside. No way they 
can compete with such a signal 30Hz away. That 5KHz is miniscule 
compared to the rest of the band. I'm all for that being reserved for 
DX calling only. You'll never find me CQing in there even in a non 
ARRL contest.

73,

Gary
KA1J

 
> Whatever the ARRL intent may have been, the wording of that
> particular rule is defective, and has been for as long as I can
> remember.
> 
> Consider:  How does one _start_ an "intercontinental QSO"?  Usually
> one party or the other sends "CQ".  So to make a QSO in the DX
> Window someone has to send "CQ TEST" or self-spot, then deliberately
> choose not to answer anyone from his/her own continent!  Sure sounds
> like an intelligent rule to me.  Not!
> 
> The only way I can see an "intercontinental only" rule working would
> be to say something along the lines of "Only stations outside North
> America should CQ in the DX WIndow, and North American stations
> should transmit in that window only when calling and working those
> DX stations."  
> 
> But the ARRL 160 always was -- and still is -- first and foremost an
> ARRL/RAC Sections contest.  Given that, it's not clear why there
> should be _any_ rule giving favors to intercontinental QSOs. 
> Contest rules might be better advised to simply "prohibit" _all_
> contest contacts and their solicitation in the DX Window, so as to
> leave that 5 kHz segment for non-contest CW DXers.
> 
> Bud, W2RU
> 
> 
> On Dec 7, 2013, at 11:34 11PM, Mike Waters 
> wrote:
> 
> > I see a lot of USA station, including a couple of regular
> contributors to
> > this reflector, calling CQ TEST between 1830 and 1835.
> > 
> > According to http://www.arrl.org/160-meter "The segment 1.830 to
> 1.835
> > should be used for intercontinental QSOs only." I hear a lot of
> contacts
> > being made between stateside stations.
> > 
> > I thought this was for DX stations, and that's mostly what I've
> heard call
> > CQ TEST there. Maybe someone can clarify this.  :-)
> > 
> > 73, Mike
> > www.w0btu.com
> > _
> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> 
> _
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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-08 Thread Bruce
This is the way I thought it supposed to work. Actually early in the contest 
the DX window had little problem with stateside CQers. I worked some 
Europeans and other stations.
On this side of North America, Europe is easier but if the window is plugged 
up with strong CQers it sure makes it tough for everyone else. It does not 
help the prestige of those plugging up the window either.


73
Bruce-K1FZ


The only way I can see an "intercontinental only" rule working would be to 
say something along the lines of "Only stations outside North America 
should CQ in the DX WIndow, and North American stations should transmit in 
that window only when calling and working those DX stations."



Bud, W2RU



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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-08 Thread W2RU - Bud Hippisley
Whatever the ARRL intent may have been, the wording of that particular rule is 
defective, and has been for as long as I can remember.

Consider:  How does one _start_ an "intercontinental QSO"?  Usually one party 
or the other sends "CQ".  So to make a QSO in the DX Window someone has to send 
"CQ TEST" or self-spot, then deliberately choose not to answer anyone from 
his/her own continent!  Sure sounds like an intelligent rule to me.  Not!

The only way I can see an "intercontinental only" rule working would be to say 
something along the lines of "Only stations outside North America should CQ in 
the DX WIndow, and North American stations should transmit in that window only 
when calling and working those DX stations."  

But the ARRL 160 always was -- and still is -- first and foremost an ARRL/RAC 
Sections contest.  Given that, it's not clear why there should be _any_ rule 
giving favors to intercontinental QSOs.  Contest rules might be better advised 
to simply "prohibit" _all_ contest contacts and their solicitation in the DX 
Window, so as to leave that 5 kHz segment for non-contest CW DXers.

Bud, W2RU


On Dec 7, 2013, at 11:34 11PM, Mike Waters  wrote:

> I see a lot of USA station, including a couple of regular contributors to
> this reflector, calling CQ TEST between 1830 and 1835.
> 
> According to http://www.arrl.org/160-meter "The segment 1.830 to 1.835
> should be used for intercontinental QSOs only." I hear a lot of contacts
> being made between stateside stations.
> 
> I thought this was for DX stations, and that's mostly what I've heard call
> CQ TEST there. Maybe someone can clarify this.  :-)
> 
> 73, Mike
> www.w0btu.com
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

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Re: Topband: DX Window

2013-12-08 Thread DGB
No clarification Mike ... you're assumptions are correct. When I got up 
this a.m., it was filled with U.S. stations. Most of them were well 
known contesters too. "Sad day in the naborhood!" It's an empty hole to 
put your signal!


73 de NS9I

On 12/7/2013 10:34 PM, Mike Waters wrote:

I see a lot of USA station, including a couple of regular contributors to
this reflector, calling CQ TEST between 1830 and 1835.

According to http://www.arrl.org/160-meter "The segment 1.830 to 1.835
should be used for intercontinental QSOs only." I hear a lot of contacts
being made between stateside stations.

I thought this was for DX stations, and that's mostly what I've heard call
CQ TEST there. Maybe someone can clarify this.  :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
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Topband: DX Window

2013-12-07 Thread Mike Waters
I see a lot of USA station, including a couple of regular contributors to
this reflector, calling CQ TEST between 1830 and 1835.

According to http://www.arrl.org/160-meter "The segment 1.830 to 1.835
should be used for intercontinental QSOs only." I hear a lot of contacts
being made between stateside stations.

I thought this was for DX stations, and that's mostly what I've heard call
CQ TEST there. Maybe someone can clarify this.  :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com
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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-07 Thread Herb Schoenbohm
I learned long ago that after winning all bands single and multi and 
single band phone and CW with a world record on CQ WW (except 40 phone) 
that these "records" would all disappear in the following years as they 
all did.  Because of the geographic point advantage to stations 300 
miles south of me could easily get a higher score with less Q's and less 
multipliers.So I have come up with self competition like trying to 
work WAS on 160 in 10 hours and now I have done that in under 4 hours on 
160.  Or trying to do DXCC on 160 in one weekend.  I think Jeff, VY2ZM 
does this with ease now.  So these little self assigned goals are really 
exciting especially when you can make your quota.  But getting in the 
top ten with a standard home station is getting more and more difficult 
with all the super stations all over the world.


Contesting is like a war to some but those who take it too seriously I 
offer this memorable line by General Patton as portrayed by George C. 
Scott in the movie.


For over a thousand years, Roman conquerors returning from the wars 
enjoyed the honor of a triumph - a tumultuous parade. In the procession 
came trumpeters and musicians and strange animals from the conquered 
territories, together with carts laden with treasure and captured 
armaments. The conqueror rode in a triumphal chariot, the dazed 
prisoners walking in chains before him. Sometimes his children, robed in 
white, stood with him in the chariot, or rode the trace horses. A slave 
stood behind the conqueror, holding a golden crown, and whispering in 
his ear a warning: that all glory is fleeting.


Such is contesting and "all glory is fleeting."

Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ



On 12/7/2012 1:24 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
I would hazard a guess that few of us enter it with an eye purely on 
score. If
folks only entered contests they would "win" there would only ever be 
one entrant
in each contest, a great loss for us all. I enjoy contest activity 
even though

I've never won any :-)


Truer words were never spoken.

That's the way it works in all sports, except radio sports.   :-)

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Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-12-07 Thread Bill Cromwell
On Fri, 2012-12-07 at 13:45 -0800, mike l dormann wrote:
> i am authorized to comment on this since i have (and a photo of my shack
> wall can be produced if requested) a real  honest sent by US postage 
> N0TT QSL card...
> 
> after i get to the back of the yard i have to walk through the woods to
> get to the ham shack. now why would anyone have his computer connected to
> his key line? keys use the same type plugs as guitars and head phones
> don't they?  mine does.
> 
> mike w7dra

Hi Mike,

If we use a logging program it is capable of throwing the T/R switch and
then sending Morse. You have to wire stuff up so the puny little
computer port can handle your grid-block and things like that but it's
not too difficult. The big dogs who do the "runs" use it to help with
fatigue from sending CQ TEST over and over and over and over again. I
dunno what they do if we ask them for a fill. I suppose they have to
actually type something.

I think you do the search and pounce like I do instead of the hunt and
peck like they do. I'm getting old now but I can still handle the keying
for QSOs. I am getting ready to use the LOTW so I am using the computer
to do logging now. I probably don't need it sending sterile CW for me at
the same time.

BTW...I'm building a contest grade receiving system for 160 through 40
meters using a rack of ARC-5 receivers . I was going to use a RAL
for that like you do but so far - no RAL.

73,

Bill  KU8H

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Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-12-07 Thread calarth



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphonemike l dormann 
 wrote:i am authorized to comment on this since i have (and a 
photo of my shack
wall can be produced if requested) a real  honest sent by US postage 
N0TT QSL card...

after i get to the back of the yard i have to walk through the woods to
get to the ham shack. now why would anyone have his computer connected to
his key line? keys use the same type plugs as guitars and head phones
don't they?  mine does.

mike w7dra


On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 16:20:55 -0500 Bill Cromwell 
writes:
> On Fri, 2012-12-07 at 17:48 +, Missouri Guy wrote:
> > > With electronic log submission easy to enforce, just invalidate 
> any
> > > QSOs by W/VE run stations in the window.
> >  
> > That's not practical to enforce via logs because some participants 
> 
> > may be using radios that have no connection to the computer other 
> than
> > the
> > key line.
> >  
> > 73 Charlie, N0TT
> 
> Hah!
> 
> That "key line" is one more connection than my radio has to a 
> computer.
> My computer is actually turned on while am on the air more than it 
> was
> even last year. Sometimes I'm actually *using* the computer.
> 
> A couple of years ago I updated my station to use just one 
> mechanical
> switch that I throw to go from transmit to receive or back again. 
> The
> switch and the morse key are arranged so I can T/R with my left hand 
> and
> immediately start sending CW OR grab the pencil and write. Either
> direction takes a fraction of a second.
> 
> Before that I used a T/R system published by R. Goldberg that 
> involved a
> chicken running back and forth pecking appropriate buttons while
> plugging and unplugging patch cables. I had to install the present
> system after a fine chicken dinner one day.
> 
> I know of some hams who do NOT even have a computer.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Bill  KU8H
> 
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
> 


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Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-12-07 Thread mike l dormann
i am authorized to comment on this since i have (and a photo of my shack
wall can be produced if requested) a real  honest sent by US postage 
N0TT QSL card...

after i get to the back of the yard i have to walk through the woods to
get to the ham shack. now why would anyone have his computer connected to
his key line? keys use the same type plugs as guitars and head phones
don't they?  mine does.

mike w7dra


On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 16:20:55 -0500 Bill Cromwell 
writes:
> On Fri, 2012-12-07 at 17:48 +, Missouri Guy wrote:
> > > With electronic log submission easy to enforce, just invalidate 
> any
> > > QSOs by W/VE run stations in the window.
> >  
> > That's not practical to enforce via logs because some participants 
> 
> > may be using radios that have no connection to the computer other 
> than
> > the
> > key line.
> >  
> > 73 Charlie, N0TT
> 
> Hah!
> 
> That "key line" is one more connection than my radio has to a 
> computer.
> My computer is actually turned on while am on the air more than it 
> was
> even last year. Sometimes I'm actually *using* the computer.
> 
> A couple of years ago I updated my station to use just one 
> mechanical
> switch that I throw to go from transmit to receive or back again. 
> The
> switch and the morse key are arranged so I can T/R with my left hand 
> and
> immediately start sending CW OR grab the pencil and write. Either
> direction takes a fraction of a second.
> 
> Before that I used a T/R system published by R. Goldberg that 
> involved a
> chicken running back and forth pecking appropriate buttons while
> plugging and unplugging patch cables. I had to install the present
> system after a fine chicken dinner one day.
> 
> I know of some hams who do NOT even have a computer.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Bill  KU8H
> 
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
> 
 

Woman is 57 But Looks 27
Mom publishes simple facelift trick that angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50c263aed65ce63ae0aadst01vuc
___
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Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-12-07 Thread Bill Cromwell
On Fri, 2012-12-07 at 17:48 +, Missouri Guy wrote:
> > With electronic log submission easy to enforce, just invalidate any
> > QSOs by W/VE run stations in the window.
>  
> That's not practical to enforce via logs because some participants 
> may be using radios that have no connection to the computer other than
> the
> key line.
>  
> 73 Charlie, N0TT

Hah!

That "key line" is one more connection than my radio has to a computer.
My computer is actually turned on while am on the air more than it was
even last year. Sometimes I'm actually *using* the computer.

A couple of years ago I updated my station to use just one mechanical
switch that I throw to go from transmit to receive or back again. The
switch and the morse key are arranged so I can T/R with my left hand and
immediately start sending CW OR grab the pencil and write. Either
direction takes a fraction of a second.

Before that I used a T/R system published by R. Goldberg that involved a
chicken running back and forth pecking appropriate buttons while
plugging and unplugging patch cables. I had to install the present
system after a fine chicken dinner one day.

I know of some hams who do NOT even have a computer.

73,

Bill  KU8H

___
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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-07 Thread mike l dormann
interesting. having spend much of my time in competitive swimming and
running, the most i ever won was a"survivor" tee shirt; and what i
disserve winning this last ARRL160 a "survivor" tee shirt would be most
appropriate

mike w7dra 


On Fri, 7 Dec 2012 12:24:13 -0500 "Tom W8JI"  writes:
> > I would hazard a guess that few of us enter it with an eye purely 
> on 
> > score. If
> > folks only entered contests they would "win" there would only ever 
> be one 
> > entrant
> > in each contest, a great loss for us all. I enjoy contest activity 
> even 
> > though
> > I've never won any :-)
> 
> Truer words were never spoken.
> 
> That's the way it works in all sports, except radio sports.   :-)
> 
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
> 
 


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Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-12-07 Thread Shoppa, Tim
I am not sure we need any punitive post-contest action.

Several W's-CQing-in-DX-Window was very obvious on the first night.

I think due to somebody seeing our discussion here, and relating it to the 
problem ops, on the second night the problem was far less. Who knows, maybe the 
contest director contacted the problem ops by landline. I would prefer that 
behavior be improved through friendly reminders during the event, rather than 
post-contest action long after the event.

I worked a good amount of DX (OK, a good amount for me, remember I'm not your 
guy to say that I worked 128 JA's in a morning!) in the contest, both in and 
outside the DX window and was happy.

I am reluctant to recommend a rewrite of next years wording to the word 
"shall". I think DX should be allowed outside the window and I think "shall" 
would require the DX to be in the window. That would be unfortunate. 

Tim N3QE

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Missouri Guy
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 12:49 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: DX Window

> With electronic log submission easy to enforce, just invalidate any 
> QSOs by W/VE run stations in the window.
 
That's not practical to enforce via logs because some participants may be using 
radios that have no connection to the computer other than the key line.
 
73 Charlie, N0TT
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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-07 Thread Jim F.
Thanks Tim...Very well said !

This expresses my feelings about TB radio contesting.
 

"The challenges of competition can be stimulating and enjoyable.
But when beating the oponent takes precedence in the mind over 
performing as well as possible, enjoyment tends to disappear.
Competition is enjoyable only when it is a means to perfect one's
skills: when it becomes an end in itself, it ceases to be fun."
Mihaly_Csikszentmihalyi
 
How else could a fairly sane QRPer look at life on Top Band ?
 
And my "Swish Swish" noise problem seems to appear and vanish 
in sync with my neighbor's outside Christmas lights even though they
don't appear to blink on and off. 
 
Merry Christmas Everybody !
 
jim / W1FMR
 

--- On Fri, 12/7/12, Shoppa, Tim  wrote:


From: Shoppa, Tim 
Subject: Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux
To: "Tom W8JI" , "he...@vitelcom.net" , 
"topband@contesting.com" 
Date: Friday, December 7, 2012, 12:03 PM


> There is a person down here always complaining about contest life being 
> unfair, and wanting distance based multipliers in other contests. He wanted 
> support for that idea.
> [...]
> The end result of distance based scoring or score by distance, power, and 
> number of QSO's is certainly very different, but it is far from level. It 
> simply tilts things in a different way.
> [...]
> It winds up effectively being a "northern polar path" or "southern polar 
> path", and unpopulated one-hop radial area penalty.

The concept of a "completely level playing field contest" is an interesting one.

There were several contests in the 1960's that attempted to level the playing
field for all participants worldwide.

These contests very often ended up with tables of multipliers based on CQ zones
that attempted to give bonus points/mults for the most difficult contacts, e.g.
over the pole. Check out for example page 57 of QST September 1967 issue for
a very large table of QSO scoring based on CQ zone matrix of correspondents.

What should be a lesson, is that these contests invariably ended up with bigger 
lookup
tables for "correcting" QSO's for difficulty, than they had entrants It will
be a stretch for anyone to remember the names of these contests although old 
issues 
of QST are a start. That's how successful the "universal correction" was.

This was before gridsquares of course. I think the TBDC hits a nice middle 
ground
and best of all nobody has to compute their own score. In fact it is by
definition impossible to compute your own score (not knowing whether the other
guy is HP, LP, or QRP.) Even with these factors there are still some locations
and styles and stations that have advantages over others.

I would hazard a guess that few of us enter it with an eye purely on score. If
folks only entered contests they would "win" there would only ever be one 
entrant
in each contest, a great loss for us all. I enjoy contest activity even though
I've never won any :-)

Tim N3QE
___
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Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-12-07 Thread Missouri Guy
> With electronic log submission easy to enforce, just invalidate any
> QSOs by W/VE run stations in the window.
 
That's not practical to enforce via logs because some participants 
may be using radios that have no connection to the computer other than
the
key line.
 
73 Charlie, N0TT
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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-07 Thread Tom W8JI
I would hazard a guess that few of us enter it with an eye purely on 
score. If
folks only entered contests they would "win" there would only ever be one 
entrant
in each contest, a great loss for us all. I enjoy contest activity even 
though

I've never won any :-)


Truer words were never spoken.

That's the way it works in all sports, except radio sports.   :-)

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Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-12-07 Thread Preston Smith
Here's a partial post I emailed to the Arizona Outlaws Contest Club
reflector following the 2011 ARRL 160:
"On the positive side the DX window from 1830-1835 was mostly well
observed by W/VE and provided a haven for Caribbean, SA and EU stns
to establish runs of their own altho no copy on the Euros here."

The window is a valuable asset for encouraging DX participation in
what is for the most part a 160m Sweepstakes. The ARRL could change
"should" to "shall" in Rule 6 thereby making compliance mandatory.
With electronic log submission easy to enforce, just invalidate any
QSOs by W/VE run stations in the window.

I didn't participate in this year's ARRL 160 as I always enter
contests SO Assisted and have had enough of being lumped in with
multi-op in the results which is ridiculous IMHO. I'll be a
non-participant in future ARRL contests with this policy but will
continue to enjoy CQ and JA sponsored contests. I just hope to live
long enough to see the ARRL establish a separate SO(A) category or
merge SO(A) and SO(U).

My 2 cents.

73/Pres, N6SS


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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-07 Thread Shoppa, Tim
> There is a person down here always complaining about contest life being 
> unfair, and wanting distance based multipliers in other contests. He wanted 
> support for that idea.
> [...]
> The end result of distance based scoring or score by distance, power, and 
> number of QSO's is certainly very different, but it is far from level. It 
> simply tilts things in a different way.
> [...]
> It winds up effectively being a "northern polar path" or "southern polar 
> path", and unpopulated one-hop radial area penalty.

The concept of a "completely level playing field contest" is an interesting one.

There were several contests in the 1960's that attempted to level the playing
field for all participants worldwide.

These contests very often ended up with tables of multipliers based on CQ zones
that attempted to give bonus points/mults for the most difficult contacts, e.g.
over the pole. Check out for example page 57 of QST September 1967 issue for
a very large table of QSO scoring based on CQ zone matrix of correspondents.

What should be a lesson, is that these contests invariably ended up with bigger 
lookup
tables for "correcting" QSO's for difficulty, than they had entrants It will
be a stretch for anyone to remember the names of these contests although old 
issues 
of QST are a start. That's how successful the "universal correction" was.

This was before gridsquares of course. I think the TBDC hits a nice middle 
ground
and best of all nobody has to compute their own score. In fact it is by
definition impossible to compute your own score (not knowing whether the other
guy is HP, LP, or QRP.) Even with these factors there are still some locations
and styles and stations that have advantages over others.

I would hazard a guess that few of us enter it with an eye purely on score. If
folks only entered contests they would "win" there would only ever be one 
entrant
in each contest, a great loss for us all. I enjoy contest activity even though
I've never won any :-)

Tim N3QE
___
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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-07 Thread Tom W8JI


- Original Message - 
From: "Herb Schoenbohm" 

To: 
Subject: Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux



On 12/6/2012 5:23 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
"There isn't any competition in any area can be all things to all people, 
nor can it be completely fair to everyone everywhere."


Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 4:59 PM
TBDC comes very close to being just that.  You get credit for distances 
and a nice boost for not being a QRO alligator.  I think that this is 
steadily gaining in popularity over the years as it should.


There is a person down here always complaining about contest life being 
unfair, and wanting distance based multipliers in other contests. He wanted 
support for that idea.


When I objectively looked into the notion distance based scoring would level 
or nearly level the playing field, it was not even close to true. Stations 
from Minnesota or the Dakotas, for example, are closer to Europe than I am, 
yet I have a much easier time working them. This is because of path 
attenuation and unreliability of paths closer to the magnetic poles.


Also, signals suffer exaggerated attenuation with each additional hop. 
Signal attenuation is not linear with distance, because of the way the 
signal propagates.


The end result of distance based scoring or score by distance, power, and 
number of QSO's is certainly very different, but it is far from level. It 
simply tilts things in a different way.


For example, a very large transmitting antenna low-power station in a 
one-hop location to very large numbers of stations can totally dominate the 
contest, while a person with modest transmitting antennas at a location 
requiring multi-hop or refractive or skirting paths through high attenuation 
areas will suffer.


It winds up effectively being a "northern polar path" or "southern polar 
path", and unpopulated one-hop radial area penalty.


People running low power in the middle of populated areas have a distinct 
advantage, because signal levels do not decrease linearly with increased 
distance and because not all paths are equal. Not only that, large 
transmitting antennas in populated areas will still win.


I understand the frustration Herb, but the ARRL obviously never intended the 
ARRL 160 to be anything like a WW DX contest. It is very different from CQ 
WW contests, and more along SS and other USA centered contests. That's why 
large stations from the Midwest do so well, and why DX activity is generally 
low.


73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-07 Thread Mike & Coreen Smith
Why don't folks ever name names? (callsigns)

Are we such a "PC" group of humans worldwide these days that we should not 
risk stepping  on someones' toes dare we insult them or shame them into 
obeying the rules ? (gasp!)

In this last contest Vermont Station W1SJ (is that WB1GQR?) was on 1830.5 or 
1830.75 (somewhere like that) and totally was taking out weak DX for me. 
There were others, but like the previous poster, I didn't keep a list.  I 
just remember SJ as he was LOUD and had a nice call easy to remember and I 
fought with his QRM for hours, seemingly every time I tuned by.

I just don't understand why peer pressure won't work for these people who 
disregard the rules.

Invariably they are the older, experienced ops with big stations (who know 
better), not the casual 160m op who is new to the band that infiltrate the 
window and ruin it to some extent for the rest of us !

Mike VE9AA
P.S.- I did note there was 1 real big station who was NOT (for once!) parked 
in the window for this contest, who sometimes is, so I'll bet peer pressure 
or some outside force worked on this person.
P.S.S.-you'll note I did not bash, call names or anything to W1SJjust 
named his callsign.  Keep it clean folks !
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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-07 Thread Clive GM3POI
Slightly off subject BUT the problem with the ARRL 160m Contest from a DX
point of view 
Is that You get 5 points for working me but I only get 2 points for working
you.
2.5 times as much. That is why I do not operate in that contest anymore. 
I know it's all relative but it is still wrong. And why it has
become an almost 
Completely domestic contest. 73 Clive GM3POI

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: 07 December 2012 00:23
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

On 12/6/2012 1:23 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
>
> It seems to me the ARRL intended it as a local **ARRL** sectional 
> contest, not as a worldwide DX contest to encourage DX participation. 
> It is more like a sweepstakes contest keyed to sections.

That makes no sense -- DX contacts are weighted 2.5x US/VE contacts, and 
there are country multipliers.  It's much closer to being the ARRL DX 
Contest for 160M.

> 1.) I think there should be a DX Window of some sort so stations 
> located inland have some improved shot at hearing DX away from strong 
> local signals. I do not think the idea to completely eliminate the 
> window was, overall, a good" idea. I think it was done primarily from 
> the view or perspective of people on the east coast with large 
> stations, and without due consideration of how eliminating a window 
> impacts everyone else.

I found a year old post that confirms your suspicions.  See quote below.

John,
If it had not been for the window I could not have worked what I have on
160. I would say it had gotten me at least a dozen new ones. One year I
remember giving ON4UN Zone 3 in the window.
I wish you could walk in my shoes once and do a 160 contest from out here.
It might enlighten you.
73 Hardy N7RT

- Original Message -
From: "John Crovelli"
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:19 AM
Subject: Topband: DX Window No Long Relevant


As a courtesy, last weekend our Multi operation, as a courtesy,  refrained
from calling CQ in what some still consider the DX Window (1830 - 1835).

BUT lets be realistic here, this is 2011, not 1961.  Split operation, a
necessary operating technique of the W1BB era is no longer necessary.
Frequency allocations between ITU regions and individual countries have
become more aligned.  All world class radios have narrow filtering
capability, etc. fully capable of handling the worst pileups.

The need for a "window" has diminished to the point it has become
irrelevant in today's world.

Only the ARRL seems to hold onto the notion of a DX window in their 160
contest rules, but they are well known for there slowness to react to
current world realities.

So I vote we assume THE 160M DX WINDOW is DEAD and move on to topics
which might have significantly more value to the masses.

73,

John W2GD/P40W

=   =   =   =   =   =   =

My comments:

In the context of 160M, Maine, VE1, VY0, and VY2  are DX if you're 
operating from California. VY2 is closer to Oslo, Dublin, London, Paris, 
Amsterdam, Brussels, and Madrid than he is to me, and the path to those 
cities is only 300 miles longer from Boston. Their path to EU is all 
water, and not over the pole. My path to them is over dirt.

So if we're gonna have a DX window, how about one where west coaster 
with less than a superstation can call CQ with a chance to work the east 
coast?  And while we're at it, how about 5 points/QSO for the west coast 
working the east coast?

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-06 Thread Jim Brown

On 12/6/2012 1:23 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:


It seems to me the ARRL intended it as a local **ARRL** sectional 
contest, not as a worldwide DX contest to encourage DX participation. 
It is more like a sweepstakes contest keyed to sections.


That makes no sense -- DX contacts are weighted 2.5x US/VE contacts, and 
there are country multipliers.  It's much closer to being the ARRL DX 
Contest for 160M.


1.) I think there should be a DX Window of some sort so stations 
located inland have some improved shot at hearing DX away from strong 
local signals. I do not think the idea to completely eliminate the 
window was, overall, a good" idea. I think it was done primarily from 
the view or perspective of people on the east coast with large 
stations, and without due consideration of how eliminating a window 
impacts everyone else.


I found a year old post that confirms your suspicions.  See quote below.

John,
If it had not been for the window I could not have worked what I have on
160. I would say it had gotten me at least a dozen new ones. One year I
remember giving ON4UN Zone 3 in the window.
I wish you could walk in my shoes once and do a 160 contest from out here.
It might enlighten you.
73 Hardy N7RT

- Original Message -
From: "John Crovelli"
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:19 AM
Subject: Topband: DX Window No Long Relevant


As a courtesy, last weekend our Multi operation, as a courtesy,  refrained
from calling CQ in what some still consider the DX Window (1830 - 1835).

BUT lets be realistic here, this is 2011, not 1961.  Split operation, a
necessary operating technique of the W1BB era is no longer necessary.
Frequency allocations between ITU regions and individual countries have
become more aligned.  All world class radios have narrow filtering
capability, etc. fully capable of handling the worst pileups.

The need for a "window" has diminished to the point it has become
irrelevant in today's world.

Only the ARRL seems to hold onto the notion of a DX window in their 160
contest rules, but they are well known for there slowness to react to
current world realities.

So I vote we assume THE 160M DX WINDOW is DEAD and move on to topics
which might have significantly more value to the masses.

73,

John W2GD/P40W

=   =   =   =   =   =   =

My comments:

In the context of 160M, Maine, VE1, VY0, and VY2  are DX if you're 
operating from California. VY2 is closer to Oslo, Dublin, London, Paris, 
Amsterdam, Brussels, and Madrid than he is to me, and the path to those 
cities is only 300 miles longer from Boston. Their path to EU is all 
water, and not over the pole. My path to them is over dirt.


So if we're gonna have a DX window, how about one where west coaster 
with less than a superstation can call CQ with a chance to work the east 
coast?  And while we're at it, how about 5 points/QSO for the west coast 
working the east coast?


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread Mark Lunday
I was able to do this repeatedly with my Flex 3000.  Only way was with the
100 Hz filters on max sampling, but it worked perfectly (thankfully) and I
was able to hear and work KH7X and D44AC with S9+ stateside stations just
500 Hz away

Mark WD4ELG


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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread Peter Voelpel
What do you think 10 callers in Europe will do?
And nobody will stop for as long as 2.5 sec.
So only the strongest stations in Europe would benefit from a dx window.

73
Peter, DJ7WW

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of N4IS
Sent: Freitag, 7. Dezember 2012 00:12
To: k...@arrl.net; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: DX window

 Art
>>
A DL wondered how many DX can coexist in 5kHz. Not many. 
<<

I think 5 KHz can hold a lot of DX , CW and 100 Hz BW can do miracles,
however just one local CQ  machine gun calling CQ stopping only  2.5 sec can
kill the same 5 KHz in the whole state.

Regards
JC
N4IS

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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread Mike / W5JR
I worked several EU near my noise floor (S 0-1) with my radio set to 150 Hz 
(Icom 756 ProII) and an omni antenna sandwiched I between stateside Ops that 
were S9 or stronger. Yes, the really close in ones, less than about 400 Hz, add 
to the challenge, but anyone more than 500 Hz away is a non-issue. I have two 
stations (at a KW+) about two miles from me in opposite directions and we 
easily operate within a KHz or each other routinely with no issues. We do see 
each other on the spectrum scopes, but nothing degrading operation. Maybe we 
are lucky. 

tnx
Mike / W5JR / GA

On Dec 6, 2012, at 6:12 PM, "N4IS"  wrote:

> Art
> A DL wondered how many DX can coexist in 5kHz. Not many. 
> <<
> 
> I think 5 KHz can hold a lot of DX , CW and 100 Hz BW can do miracles,
> however just one local CQ  machine gun calling CQ stopping only  2.5 sec can
> kill the same 5 KHz in the whole state.
> 
> Regards
> JC
> N4IS
> 
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread N4IS
 Art
>>
A DL wondered how many DX can coexist in 5kHz. Not many. 
<<

I think 5 KHz can hold a lot of DX , CW and 100 Hz BW can do miracles,
however just one local CQ  machine gun calling CQ stopping only  2.5 sec can
kill the same 5 KHz in the whole state.

Regards
JC
N4IS

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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-06 Thread Milt -- N5IA

Herb,

The reason there is hardly anyone on TB during SS is that there is no 
incentive to be there.  There are no band multipliers and you can work 
everyone on the other 5 bands.


Keep up the good work.

de Milt, N5IA


-Original Message- 
From: Herb Schoenbohm

Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 2:55 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

On 12/6/2012 5:23 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
"It is more like a sweepstakes contest keyed to sections"  It seems this 
was the ratinale Tom but that the ARRL SS allows 160 meters and a single 
band entry.  However there are only a few station I have ever heard 
calling CQ SS on TB.  maybe thats not such a bad thing?



Herb, KV4FZ

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Topband: DX Window

2012-12-06 Thread Ralph Parker
Only in the past 4-5 years have I paid serious attention to 160m, and I
thought that the DX Window had faded away and was no longer observed. It
looks like I was wrong.

I understand its purpose, and I'm perfectly willing to abide by it. Perhaps
all that is needed (for many of us) is a reminder that it is indeed active,
and please to respect it.

I spend a lot of time on 6m in the summer, and many newbies, unaware of the
DX window (50.1 - 50.125), blithely call CQ and work each other there,
until its purpose is explained to them. All same 160m.
(DX = off continental NA, so Herb, etc., are welcome there.)

I consider myself re-educated.
How about: QDW (pse respect the DX window) as a reminder?

Ralph, VE7XF

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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-06 Thread Herb Schoenbohm

On 12/6/2012 5:23 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
"There isn't any competition in any area can be all things to all 
people, nor can it be completely fair to everyone everywhere."  TBDC 
comes very close to being just that.  You get credit for distances and 
a nice boost for not being a QRO alligator.  I think that this is 
steadily gaining in popularity over the years as it should.



Herb, KV4FZ

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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-06 Thread Herb Schoenbohm

On 12/6/2012 5:23 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
"It is more like a sweepstakes contest keyed to sections"  It seems 
this was the ratinale Tom but that the ARRL SS allows 160 meters and a 
single band entry.  However there are only a few station I have ever 
heard calling CQ SS on TB.  maybe thats not such a bad thing?



Herb, KV4FZ

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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-06 Thread Tom W8JI
is disingenuous.  First the contest planners have already turned their 
back on DX.  DX was included as an after thought. Why, because 160 meter 
legend DX-er W0NWX-W0DX-VP2VI was ARRL President and lived during the 
winters in BVI a scant 7 miles from U.S.VI.


It seems to me the ARRL intended it as a local **ARRL** sectional contest, 
not as a worldwide DX contest to encourage DX participation. It is more like 
a sweepstakes contest keyed to sections.


I can't see any conspiracy. If someone is in an ARRL section, it counts as 
an ARRL section. If someone in a country next door is not in an ARRL 
section, it is DX.


Now Tom suggests that I should be sanctioned for calling CQ inside the 
window...even though I am really looking for EU and Asia.  I must not 
answer NA stations calling because that is Intercontinental but a PJ of a 
P4 a few hundred miles south of me can do so without impunity.


Just to be clear,  I certainly did not suggest a sanction against any 
specific person, especially you Herb.


1.) I think there should be a DX Window of some sort so stations located 
inland have some improved shot at hearing DX away from strong local signals. 
I do not think the idea to completely eliminate the window was, overall, a 
good" idea. I think it was done primarily from the view or perspective of 
people on the east coast with large stations, and without due consideration 
of how eliminating a window impacts everyone else.


2.) I also think, if something is in the rules or "suggestions" of a 
contest, people should follow them or suffer a penalty of some type. This is 
true no matter who they are.


3.) There isn't any competition in any area can be all things to all people, 
nor can it be completely fair to everyone everywhere. That doesn't mean it 
is a conspiracy.


This is just my opinion.

73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread k6xt
One sure way to open the DX window to DX is to blacklist us/ve who CQ 
there. At least temporarily. Which is what I do, just pass them by even 
when they're 40 over and I need the mult. Tough love. If there's a DX 
station nearby I'll surely try to work it, perhaps with a judicious VFO 
offset to make sure the DX can hear me.


Not that I keep a list or anything. I don't. If they just keep CQn in 
the window I'll never work them. Sooner or later they'll find me up or 
down the band.


A DL wondered how many DX can coexist in 5kHz. Not many. But its a lot 
more than is possible to work if US/VE are CQing in that 5kHz!


Another noted there's no "rule" in terms of licensing structure about 
the window. True. Its been a gentlemen's agreement since way before I 
was first licensed.


--
73 Art K6XT~~
Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiasm.
ARRL, GMCC, CW OPS, NAQCC
ARRL TA

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Re: Topband: DX Window-Redux

2012-12-06 Thread Herb Schoenbohm
I would say with all that is already wrong with the ARRL 160 meter 
contest which is a beehive of CQ machines, Dx or no DX, window or no 
window, that for them to make such a statement (this segment should be 
used for intercontinental QSOs only, as a mere suggestion, not a rule, 
is disingenuous.  First the contest planners have already turned their 
back on DX.  DX was included as an after thought. Why, because 160 meter 
legend DX-er W0NWX-W0DX-VP2VI was ARRL President and lived during the 
winters in BVI a scant 7 miles from U.S.VI.  So there was an attempt, a 
poorly designed one for inclusion of one person based on politics rather 
than fairness.  DX in the U.S. Territories seems to be of little  or no 
value except for a multiplier. There weren't any PR stations on in the 
last event and if I would have carried out my plans for a NA boycott, no 
VI multiplier either.  All the DXCC U.S. entities in the Caribbean are 
all counted as VI or Puerto Rico even though KP1 is about as rare as a 
place on earth for anyone to work on any band, but it counts for the VI.


Now Tom suggests that I should be sanctioned for calling CQ inside the 
window...even though I am really looking for EU and Asia.  I must not 
answer NA stations calling because that is Intercontinental but a PJ of 
a P4 a few hundred miles south of me can do so without impunity.  Makes 
no sense as some continents like Asia extend half way around the world. 
Intercontinental or intercontinental is a broad brush that falls apart 
when DX shows up and they direct you where to go.  If you don't listen 
to instructions then you don't work them, period.  This is the way that 
self regulation works.


I would say that the ARRL suggestion is just that, a suggestion. If they 
were just not following an old worn out tradition of Viking Rangers and 
HQ-129 Receivers, and if they want to be certain they mean what they 
say, all the need to is change the world from "should" to "must".  But 
you know the CAC can not even suggest this as they must be "tasked" by a 
secretive internal council at HQ to rubber stamp their suggestions.  So 
nothing is going to change.


We all go where the DX is and if ZL9HR on 1826 says up 10 ...lets not 
kid ourselves, we are gong to call up ten, and start calling. Today with 
very directional RX antennas for serious DX-ers the kindness and ethics 
of the "gentleman's" band should be enough. This seems to noticeably 
fall apart during the ARRL 160 Contest disaster..which few really 
like anyway and so many complain about.


In direct contrast, we are all redeemed at the end of this month by the 
Stew Perry Distance Challenge that everybody likes and the rules are 
straight forward and simple.  DX is! You don't even have to score your 
results and everyone gets a category they can choose from.


The ARRL160 Meter event always causes more ruffled feathers and the TBDC 
is just the opposite.  What Lew and Tree came up with is substance.  
What a board room of insiders at HQ foisted on 160 is all about 
symbolism and about working some ARRL sections, not about developing the 
skills to work weak signals on a crowded band.  I have been trying for 
years to get them to change this but all I get is some sort of arrogant 
slap down.  I though that the league itself is supposed to remember 
their own motto and that motto should extend to TB'ers as well.


CU in the Stew during the Christmas season and watch how the DX crawls 
out of the woodwork to get in someones logs.  It is a contest that those 
that try the most with the least have a chance in being recognized.  The 
Stew is really the anti-alligator anti big gun event which is never 
drudgery like the plethora of CQ machines across the band.


73

Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ




On 12/6/2012 12:40 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:

I stand by my suggestion and I don't see my suggestion as nonsense in
the least. Go here and read section 6.1
http://www.arrl.org/160-meter - The ARRL who host this contest state
plainly that this segment should be used for intercontinental QSOs
only, ergo: the DX window.

Since US & VE are disregarding this directive and using it selfishly
to the detriment of the others in the contest who are playing by the
rules, I say the offending stations should be penalized for ignoring
the rules. What is nonsense about that?

That is a good suggestion, because it is what the contest rules 
suggest. It is a place for intercontinental QSO's, and W/VE should not 
CQ there.

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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread mike l dormann
well, my radio has a dial on it that goes from 0 to 180 somewhere around
10 i stop hearing cw, which means that is the bottom of the band, and
around 180 or so can hear ssb, which to me is the top of the band. don't
need much more calabration than that.

mike w7dra


On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 09:07:16 -0500 Bill Cromwell 
writes:
> Hi Darrell,
> 
> I have started wading into computer logging and I usually use 
> paper.
> After the contest I enter the info into the computer but I plan to 
> just
> have the computer running and do it one QSO at a time.
> 
> None of my radios have any kind of CAT "feature". I do NOT want my 
> radio
> to be smarter than me so they have to stay pretty dern stooopid. 
> The
> logging programs let me enter the frequency I am using in whatever
> format I want AND just keep using the same info for each QSO until 
> I
> change it. I would enter something like 160M or 1.8 (as in mc) but 
> I
> could as easily put in 1.835001. Radios smarter than me can tell 
> the
> computer where they are operating (maybe to the nearest 50 or 100
> cycles. Checking for W/VE QSOs in the DX window would work for at 
> least
> those stations with Baccalaureate radios. Any kind of policing of 
> that
> nature would be encumbered with challenges and appeals processes 
> and
> final results could take years.
> 
> If CAT and computer logging become a requirement those of us without 
> CAT
> or computer logging will be banned - de facto. Come to think of it 
> my
> contest operation is already pretty low key. There are always the 
> WARC
> bands and the expected new allocation at 600 meters. I can't 
> imagine
> contests in THAT band.
> 
> Or...we could all just play by the contest rules and agreements.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Bill  KU8H
> 
> 
> On Wed, 2012-12-05 at 18:22 -0800, Darrell Bellerive wrote:
> > Being unencumbered by knowledge of contest log reporting and 
> checking 
> > perhaps I am missing something.
> > 
> > Since virtually all contest stations use automated logging 
> programs and 
> > these programs could get the actual transmit frequency directly 
> from the 
> > transceiver as the contact is logged, then why couldn't a log 
> check 
> > computer program simply check for non DX contacts within a DX 
> window?
> > 
> > I guess that would mean requiring an exact frequency rather than a 
> 
> > generic frequency to be submitted in the Cabrillo format, but 
> certainly 
> > that doesn't seem to hard to code into the logging program.
> > 
> > I suppose this could even be crosschecked in the other station's 
> log to 
> > rule out computer errors.
> > 
> > Apply penalties for a certain number of violations to allow for 
> true 
> > mistakes, but once above a certain limit, disqualification.
> > 
> > I will crawl back under my rock now.
> > 
> > 73, Darrell VA7TO
> > 
> > Darrell Bellerive
> 
> 
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
> 
 

Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread John K9UWA
Exactly Correct Peter

Put a dozen high powered EU stations in the 5 Khz Window and THEY can't 
hear any of the US/VE stations called them.

John k9uwa

> I agree when the discussion is about the ARRL 160m contest only.
> But, how many stations outside W/VE can share those 5kHz?
> 
> 73
> Peter, DJ7WW

John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF 
Antique Radio Restorations
k9...@arrl.net
Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426

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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-06 Thread Tom W8JI
As Peter has responded, there are two JA windows; 1810-1825 and 
1907.7-1912.5 .


Until a few years ago the JA hams only had the upper 1907.7-1912.5 
allocation.  Because the band was segmented in much of the world most 
international contacts on 160 Meters were done split frequency.


From here in the USA the common method was for US stations to transmit in 
the 1.820-1.830 area where their narrow band TX antennas were resonant and 
listen for the JA stations in the above 1.9 MHZ JA allocation.  The JA 
stations would do the opposite, TXing above 1.9 and listening down low.


Initially USA transmitted 1800-1810 on CW, usually below 1805. It wasn't 
just JA.


The west coast USA had 1975-2000, the east coast 1800-1825.

ZL only worked up around 1875.

Many Europe and Africa only had 1825 up to 1830, some more.

Now the JA's are still very restricted with the two segments you mentioned 
and no SSB. Other places have a variety of areas to operate.


This still does not exclude a DX Window for Europe and the rest of the 
world, just because JA can't above 1825.


Also, the OLD standard was USA CQ on the start of the odd fives, and listen 
on the even start of 5's when DX CQed. For example, I might CQ at 0500Z and 
G3PU at 0505.


http://www.w8ji.com/160%20History/hist160dx.pdf

73 Tom 


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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread N4IS
Gary 

You have a god point, if we don't care they don't mind. 

I think we cc download the RBN file with all callers on the DX window during
the contest, it is available in .csv, easy to filter using excel and send a
formal complain to ARRL contest managers, It is not necessary to publish
that list because is available for everybody download. Let see the ARRL
reaction.

If we don't protect the DX windows, we can't complain because we are
gentlemen's and we made possible the gentlemen's band throughout the years
and it was not staying aside the line and just watching. 

Any comments or actions?

Regards
JC   


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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread Eddy Swynar

On 2012-12-06, at 10:37 AM, Gary Smith wrote:

> I stand by my suggestion and I don't see my suggestion as nonsense in 
> the least. Go here and read section 6.1
> http://www.arrl.org/160-meter - The ARRL who host this contest state 
> plainly that this segment should be used for intercontinental QSOs 
> only, ergo: the DX window. 
> 
> Since US & VE are disregarding this directive and using it selfishly 
> to the detriment of the others in the contest who are playing by the 
> rules, I say the offending stations should be penalized for ignoring 
> the rules. What is nonsense about that?
> 
> My point is the W/VE should not be within the DX window calling CQ in 
> the first place. I can't imagine anyone would be there calling CQ and 
> expect a constant pileup of DX to be calling them. What is more 
> likely is they may feel by being in that window they will be in a 
> perfect location to get the maximum DX multipliers and by holding 
> that bandwidth in that limited and specific segment, minimize the # 
> of multipliers others will be able to get.





Hi Gary,

I agree with your sentiments 101%, FWIW...

Alas & alack, nothing will ever come of it: our Ham "society" to-day seems to 
have embraced the domain of society at large, in that we'd rather go out of our 
way, rather than to "offend" the "offender". 

Is it in keeping with our seemingly universal mantra anymore of being 
politically correct...? Or have we collectively & suddenly become 
oh-so-very-kind to one another that the last thing we'd want to do is tell 
someone that maybe---just "maybe"!---their behaviour is not quite up to 
standards...?

I don't know, it sure beats me: just as I am still gobsmacked by the "...shy & 
retiring" Topband person(s) who, a few years ago, would anonymously send 
transmissions"klix" right at the end of my transmissions, & who would besmirch 
my otherwise "good name" on various sites because my signal didn't quite 
measure-up to some ethereal golden "standard" in the eyes (and ears) of that 
beholder...

Maybe that's the key...? The Kilocycle Kop(s) should dedicate time & energy to 
park in the DX window, & send "WINDOW HR" at the conclusion of each & every CQ 
by NA stations...?! (Where are those Kc Kops when you need one...?!)

~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ
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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread Peter Voelpel
I agree when the discussion is about the ARRL 160m contest only.
But, how many stations outside W/VE can share those 5kHz?

73
Peter, DJ7WW


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Smith

I stand by my suggestion and I don't see my suggestion as nonsense in the
least. Go here and read section 6.1 http://www.arrl.org/160-meter - The ARRL
who host this contest state plainly that this segment should be used for
intercontinental QSOs only, ergo: the DX window. 

Since US & VE are disregarding this directive and using it selfishly to the
detriment of the others in the contest who are playing by the rules, I say
the offending stations should be penalized for ignoring the rules. What is
nonsense about that?

My point is the W/VE should not be within the DX window calling CQ in the
first place. I can't imagine anyone would be there calling CQ and expect a
constant pileup of DX to be calling them. What is more likely is they may
feel by being in that window they will be in a perfect location to get the
maximum DX multipliers and by holding that bandwidth in that limited and
specific segment, minimize the # of multipliers others will be able to get.

Gary
KA1J


> What a nonsense.
> Do you expect a station calling cq during a contest in the DX window 
> and being called by a non dx station to qsy with that station to a 
> frequency outside the dx window? And how many stations can share the 
> dx window? By the way, I don´t see any frequency marked dx window in 
> the ARRL band plan. And no dx window is seen in our region 1 band plan 
> either.
> 
> 73
> Peter, DJ7WW
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
> Gary Smith
> 
> Make it known every QSO within that DX window from W/VE not working a 
> DX station will have a punitive docking of points. If they have the 
> guts to do this, there will quickly be a hole in the ether for DX to 
> be heard.
> 
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
> 



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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread Tree
I think "tradition" for the ARRL has been to only find "DX" stations there
CQing.  That's why it is in the rules.  It is often the first time some of
the "little guns" have ever heard DX on the band.

>From time to time - I find some USA stations there CQing - and typically
they leave after being reminded about the window.

However, from time to time you see a serious station setup camp and run off
100 or more domestic stations - which seems like it is taking advantage of
the rule.

Tree

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Tom W8JI  wrote:

> I stand by my suggestion and I don't see my suggestion as nonsense in
> the least. Go here and read section 6.1
> http://www.arrl.org/160-meter - The ARRL who host this contest state
> plainly that this segment should be used for intercontinental QSOs
> only, ergo: the DX window.
>
> Since US & VE are disregarding this directive and using it selfishly
> to the detriment of the others in the contest who are playing by the
> rules, I say the offending stations should be penalized for ignoring
> the rules. What is nonsense about that?
>
> That is a good suggestion, because it is what the contest rules suggest.
> It is a place for intercontinental QSO's, and W/VE should not CQ there.
> __**_
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
>
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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread Tom W8JI

I stand by my suggestion and I don't see my suggestion as nonsense in
the least. Go here and read section 6.1
http://www.arrl.org/160-meter - The ARRL who host this contest state
plainly that this segment should be used for intercontinental QSOs
only, ergo: the DX window.

Since US & VE are disregarding this directive and using it selfishly
to the detriment of the others in the contest who are playing by the
rules, I say the offending stations should be penalized for ignoring
the rules. What is nonsense about that?

That is a good suggestion, because it is what the contest rules suggest. It 
is a place for intercontinental QSO's, and W/VE should not CQ there. 


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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread Gary Smith
I stand by my suggestion and I don't see my suggestion as nonsense in 
the least. Go here and read section 6.1
http://www.arrl.org/160-meter - The ARRL who host this contest state 
plainly that this segment should be used for intercontinental QSOs 
only, ergo: the DX window. 

Since US & VE are disregarding this directive and using it selfishly 
to the detriment of the others in the contest who are playing by the 
rules, I say the offending stations should be penalized for ignoring 
the rules. What is nonsense about that?

My point is the W/VE should not be within the DX window calling CQ in 
the first place. I can't imagine anyone would be there calling CQ and 
expect a constant pileup of DX to be calling them. What is more 
likely is they may feel by being in that window they will be in a 
perfect location to get the maximum DX multipliers and by holding 
that bandwidth in that limited and specific segment, minimize the # 
of multipliers others will be able to get.

Gary
KA1J


> What a nonsense.
> Do you expect a station calling cq during a contest in the DX window
> and being called by a non dx station to qsy with that station to a
> frequency outside the dx window? And how many stations can share the
> dx window? By the way, I don´t see any frequency marked dx window in
> the ARRL band plan. And no dx window is seen in our region 1 band plan
> either.
> 
> 73
> Peter, DJ7WW
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
> Gary Smith
> 
> Make it known every QSO within that DX window from W/VE not working a
> DX station will have a punitive docking of points. If they have the
> guts to do this, there will quickly be a hole in the ether for DX to
> be heard.
> 
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
> 



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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread Peter Voelpel
What a nonsense.
Do you expect a station calling cq during a contest in the DX window and
being called by a non dx station to qsy with that station to a frequency
outside the dx window?
And how many stations can share the dx window?
By the way, I don´t see any frequency marked dx window in the ARRL band
plan.
And no dx window is seen in our region 1 band plan either.

73
Peter, DJ7WW


-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Smith

Make it known every QSO within that DX window from W/VE not working a DX
station will have a punitive docking of points. If they have the guts to do
this, there will quickly be a hole in the ether for DX to be heard.

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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread Shoppa, Tim
Don't mean to leapfrog you guys technologically. But you don't need to 
interface your radio to your computer, because lots of other hams have already 
done this. CQ'ing stations are logged in the "Reverse Beacon Network" 
automatically. http://reversebeacon.net/

The reversebeacon data clearly show all the US and VE CQ'ing stations I heard 
in the DX window. There were several consistently CQ'ing in the DX window the 
first night of the contest. It even shows that I (briefly, like a minute or 
two) CQ'ed in the window!

While I like to complain too, there was a marked reduction in US/VE CQ'ing in 
DX window the second night of the contest and many DX stations were clearly 
audible to me on fairly clear frequencies both inside and outside the window. I 
was a little surprised that there wasn't a line of callers for the stronger DX 
stations. I strongly suspect comments made on this mailing list and 
forwarded/read by those stations, helped rectify the situation.

Tim N3QE

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill Cromwell
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 9:07 AM
To: Topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: DX window

Hi Darrell,

I have started wading into computer logging and I usually use paper.
After the contest I enter the info into the computer but I plan to just have 
the computer running and do it one QSO at a time.

None of my radios have any kind of CAT "feature". I do NOT want my radio to be 
smarter than me so they have to stay pretty dern stooopid. The logging programs 
let me enter the frequency I am using in whatever format I want AND just keep 
using the same info for each QSO until I change it. I would enter something 
like 160M or 1.8 (as in mc) but I could as easily put in 1.835001. Radios 
smarter than me can tell the computer where they are operating (maybe to the 
nearest 50 or 100 cycles. Checking for W/VE QSOs in the DX window would work 
for at least those stations with Baccalaureate radios. Any kind of policing of 
that nature would be encumbered with challenges and appeals processes and final 
results could take years.

If CAT and computer logging become a requirement those of us without CAT or 
computer logging will be banned - de facto. Come to think of it my contest 
operation is already pretty low key. There are always the WARC bands and the 
expected new allocation at 600 meters. I can't imagine contests in THAT band.

Or...we could all just play by the contest rules and agreements.

73,

Bill  KU8H


On Wed, 2012-12-05 at 18:22 -0800, Darrell Bellerive wrote:
> Being unencumbered by knowledge of contest log reporting and checking 
> perhaps I am missing something.
> 
> Since virtually all contest stations use automated logging programs 
> and these programs could get the actual transmit frequency directly 
> from the transceiver as the contact is logged, then why couldn't a log 
> check computer program simply check for non DX contacts within a DX window?
> 
> I guess that would mean requiring an exact frequency rather than a 
> generic frequency to be submitted in the Cabrillo format, but 
> certainly that doesn't seem to hard to code into the logging program.
> 
> I suppose this could even be crosschecked in the other station's log 
> to rule out computer errors.
> 
> Apply penalties for a certain number of violations to allow for true 
> mistakes, but once above a certain limit, disqualification.
> 
> I will crawl back under my rock now.
> 
> 73, Darrell VA7TO
> 
> Darrell Bellerive


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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-06 Thread Bill Cromwell
Hi Darrell,

I have started wading into computer logging and I usually use paper.
After the contest I enter the info into the computer but I plan to just
have the computer running and do it one QSO at a time.

None of my radios have any kind of CAT "feature". I do NOT want my radio
to be smarter than me so they have to stay pretty dern stooopid. The
logging programs let me enter the frequency I am using in whatever
format I want AND just keep using the same info for each QSO until I
change it. I would enter something like 160M or 1.8 (as in mc) but I
could as easily put in 1.835001. Radios smarter than me can tell the
computer where they are operating (maybe to the nearest 50 or 100
cycles. Checking for W/VE QSOs in the DX window would work for at least
those stations with Baccalaureate radios. Any kind of policing of that
nature would be encumbered with challenges and appeals processes and
final results could take years.

If CAT and computer logging become a requirement those of us without CAT
or computer logging will be banned - de facto. Come to think of it my
contest operation is already pretty low key. There are always the WARC
bands and the expected new allocation at 600 meters. I can't imagine
contests in THAT band.

Or...we could all just play by the contest rules and agreements.

73,

Bill  KU8H


On Wed, 2012-12-05 at 18:22 -0800, Darrell Bellerive wrote:
> Being unencumbered by knowledge of contest log reporting and checking 
> perhaps I am missing something.
> 
> Since virtually all contest stations use automated logging programs and 
> these programs could get the actual transmit frequency directly from the 
> transceiver as the contact is logged, then why couldn't a log check 
> computer program simply check for non DX contacts within a DX window?
> 
> I guess that would mean requiring an exact frequency rather than a 
> generic frequency to be submitted in the Cabrillo format, but certainly 
> that doesn't seem to hard to code into the logging program.
> 
> I suppose this could even be crosschecked in the other station's log to 
> rule out computer errors.
> 
> Apply penalties for a certain number of violations to allow for true 
> mistakes, but once above a certain limit, disqualification.
> 
> I will crawl back under my rock now.
> 
> 73, Darrell VA7TO
> 
> Darrell Bellerive


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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Gary Smith
It does. Here's me with cabrillo format working herb & he was in the 
DX window.

QSO: 1830 CW 2012-12-01 0323 KA1J 599 VP2V/AA7V 599 VP2-V   
QSO: 1833 CW 2012-12-01 0339 KA1J 599 KV4FZ 599 VI  
QSO: 1833 CW 2012-12-01 0342 KA1J 599 OL7M  599 OL

Freq 1.833 for Herb KV4FZ 

Sorry for QRMing you when I got the OL...

hehe

Gary
KA1J



> Being unencumbered by knowledge of contest log reporting and checking
> perhaps I am missing something.
> 
> Since virtually all contest stations use automated logging programs
> and these programs could get the actual transmit frequency directly
> from the transceiver as the contact is logged, then why couldn't a log
> check computer program simply check for non DX contacts within a DX
> window?
> 
> I guess that would mean requiring an exact frequency rather than a
> generic frequency to be submitted in the Cabrillo format, but
> certainly that doesn't seem to hard to code into the logging program.
> 
> I suppose this could even be crosschecked in the other station's log
> to rule out computer errors.
> 
> Apply penalties for a certain number of violations to allow for true
> mistakes, but once above a certain limit, disqualification.
> 
> I will crawl back under my rock now.
> 
> 73, Darrell VA7TO
> 
> Darrell Bellerive
> 
> On 12-12-05 12:25 PM, Gary Smith wrote:
> > What I see as reasonable is to make operating in the DX window a
> > penalty where when the test scores are sent in by cabrillo, those
> > working the window would be identified. When the scores are sent in,
> > the IP address is added to the x-header and simply going to
> > http://aruljohn.com/track.pl and entering the IP will tell you where
> > the senders location is.
> >
> > Make it known every QSO within that DX window from W/VE not working
> > a DX station will have a punitive docking of points. If they have
> > the guts to do this, there will quickly be a hole in the ether for
> > DX to be heard.
> >
> > Gary
> > KA1J
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
> 



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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Darrell Bellerive
Being unencumbered by knowledge of contest log reporting and checking 
perhaps I am missing something.


Since virtually all contest stations use automated logging programs and 
these programs could get the actual transmit frequency directly from the 
transceiver as the contact is logged, then why couldn't a log check 
computer program simply check for non DX contacts within a DX window?


I guess that would mean requiring an exact frequency rather than a 
generic frequency to be submitted in the Cabrillo format, but certainly 
that doesn't seem to hard to code into the logging program.


I suppose this could even be crosschecked in the other station's log to 
rule out computer errors.


Apply penalties for a certain number of violations to allow for true 
mistakes, but once above a certain limit, disqualification.


I will crawl back under my rock now.

73, Darrell VA7TO

Darrell Bellerive

On 12-12-05 12:25 PM, Gary Smith wrote:

What I see as reasonable is to make operating in the DX window a
penalty where when the test scores are sent in by cabrillo, those
working the window would be identified. When the scores are sent in,
the IP address is added to the x-header and simply going to
http://aruljohn.com/track.pl and entering the IP will tell you where
the senders location is.

Make it known every QSO within that DX window from W/VE not working a
DX station will have a punitive docking of points. If they have the
guts to do this, there will quickly be a hole in the ether for DX to
be heard.

Gary
KA1J

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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-05 Thread Bill Cromwell
Hi Milt,

It sure helps me. I don't make any bones about new to 160. My antenna
and my transmitter have been giving me a lot of grief so I have had only
a few QSOs...maybe a couple dozen. I am not a "seasoned professional" on
top band. I'm just an amateur. My license even says so (evil grin). So
far when I have tried to get on the air, "reasonable amateur practice"
has kept me out of serious trouble. Lots of listening and a query before
using a "vacant" frequency. I know what a pileup sounds like so even if
I can't hear the DX I know (s)he is around.

It's helpful when in Rome to know what the Romans do.

73,

Bill  KU8H


On Wed, 2012-12-05 at 15:55 -0700, Milt -- N5IA wrote:
> Bill,
> 
> As Peter has responded, there are two JA windows; 1810-1825 and 
> 1907.7-1912.5 .
> 
> Until a few years ago the JA hams only had the upper 1907.7-1912.5 
> allocation.  Because the band was segmented in much of the world most 
> international contacts on 160 Meters were done split frequency.
> 
> >From here in the USA the common method was for US stations to transmit in 
> the 1.820-1.830 area where their narrow band TX antennas were resonant and 
> listen for the JA stations in the above 1.9 MHZ JA allocation.  The JA 
> stations would do the opposite, TXing above 1.9 and listening down low.
> 
> The method of contacting each other was not random.  When you CQed, you 
> added at the end the couple of digits that indicated where you were 
> listening in the other fellows band.  For example, I would CQ CQ de N5IA 
> N5IA r83.  What this meant to the JA stations that I was listening on 
> 1.908.3.  We did this both for casual DXing and in the contests.
> 
> Since the new, wider allocation to JA at the 1.810 to 1.825, to my knowledge 
> all contest contacts are done simplex in that portion of the spectrum.  If 
> you want to work JA on 160 Meters you have to be within that window also.
> 
> I don't know for a fact, but I suppose the above 1.9 MHZ allocation is 
> probably used by JA for local, in country contacts.  Anyone out there know 
> how that portion of the spectrum is now used in JA?
> 
> I hope this helps you and perhaps others, Bill.
> 
> 73 and good evening de Milt, N5IA


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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-05 Thread Milt -- N5IA

Bill,

As Peter has responded, there are two JA windows; 1810-1825 and 
1907.7-1912.5 .


Until a few years ago the JA hams only had the upper 1907.7-1912.5 
allocation.  Because the band was segmented in much of the world most 
international contacts on 160 Meters were done split frequency.


From here in the USA the common method was for US stations to transmit in 
the 1.820-1.830 area where their narrow band TX antennas were resonant and 
listen for the JA stations in the above 1.9 MHZ JA allocation.  The JA 
stations would do the opposite, TXing above 1.9 and listening down low.


The method of contacting each other was not random.  When you CQed, you 
added at the end the couple of digits that indicated where you were 
listening in the other fellows band.  For example, I would CQ CQ de N5IA 
N5IA r83.  What this meant to the JA stations that I was listening on 
1.908.3.  We did this both for casual DXing and in the contests.


Since the new, wider allocation to JA at the 1.810 to 1.825, to my knowledge 
all contest contacts are done simplex in that portion of the spectrum.  If 
you want to work JA on 160 Meters you have to be within that window also.


I don't know for a fact, but I suppose the above 1.9 MHZ allocation is 
probably used by JA for local, in country contacts.  Anyone out there know 
how that portion of the spectrum is now used in JA?


I hope this helps you and perhaps others, Bill.

73 and good evening de Milt, N5IA


-Original Message- 
From: Bill Cromwell

Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 1:21 PM
To: Milt -- N5IA
Cc: Bill and Liz ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

On Wed, 2012-12-05 at 11:47 -0700, Milt -- N5IA wrote:



All JA stations worked called me on my Run frequencies within the 'JA
Window'.

CU all in the SPDC.

73 de Milt, N5IA, op at N7GP



The JA window?

73,

Bill  KU8H 


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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-05 Thread Bill Cromwell
On Wed, 2012-12-05 at 21:39 +0100, Peter Voelpel wrote:
> 1810-1825 and 1907.7-1912.5 is allocated in Japan (CW only)
> 
> 73
> Peter, DJ7WW


Thank you Peter,

That's useful information here.

I now know how to stay out of the way AND... I know where to look for
them.

73,

Bill  KU8H

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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-05 Thread Peter Voelpel
1810-1825 and 1907.7-1912.5 is allocated in Japan (CW only)

73
Peter, DJ7WW

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Cromwell

The JA window?


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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Steve HA0DU

Dear TopBanders,

My license says CW can be used from 1810 kHz up to the end of the band. 
However, no Phone modes are allowed below 1840 kHz. I am sure most 
European licenses are similar. IARU Region 1 bandplan says all modes 
between 1810 kHz and the upper end of the band - so let's talk ONLY 
about SSB in the CW portion and not the other way around. CW on 1875 kHz 
is legit. SSB on 1823 isn't.
Monitoring an SSB contest needs human resources. "Three verifiable 
complaints" is not good enough, as it would lead to a very high number 
of "complaints". IMHO the organizers of the contest should appoint 
monitoring stations.


The same should be applied on 40 meters, where QSX listening on 7015 - 
7035 in CQWW was quite common...


But let me provoke you: How many serious SSB contest on 160 meters? Two? 
Three? Why can't the mazochists contesting on 160 SSB have the whole 
band for 6 days in a year?


73 Steve HA0DU




On 05/12/2012 21:01, Ian Wade G3NRW wrote:


___Original Message_
From: Tom W8JI 
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012   Time: 12:54:35


Without working together, we need the Government to make rules and
impose penalties.


Tom

I'm not sure that Government intervention is a very good idea (it
certainly wouldn't be in this country!), but you hit the nail fair and
square on the head when you talk about penalties.

The contest rule makers should get real tough about stations who
persistently work in the "wrong" part of the bands during contests. In
CW contests we've all heard CW signals stomping all over the phone end
of the band. In phone contests we've all heard phone stations all over
the bottom part of the band. In RTTY contests ... well, we all know what
happens there.

"Three verifiable complaints and you're out" should be the rule. With
SDR receivers available these days, that shouldn't be too difficult to
police.


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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Gary Smith


> "Three verifiable complaints and you're out" should be the rule. With
> SDR receivers available these days, that shouldn't be too difficult to
> police.
> 
> -- 
> 73
> Ian, G3NRW

I'm not so sure I like the 3 strikes policy. My reasoning is lets say 
some AH wanted for instance, to discredit stiff competition and 
pirated their call using it while intentionally create interference 
in the DX window. It wouldn't take long for this to disqualify that 
operator unfairly.

What I see as reasonable is to make operating in the DX window a 
penalty where when the test scores are sent in by cabrillo, those 
working the window would be identified. When the scores are sent in, 
the IP address is added to the x-header and simply going to 
http://aruljohn.com/track.pl and entering the IP will tell you where 
the senders location is.

Make it known every QSO within that DX window from W/VE not working a 
DX station will have a punitive docking of points. If they have the 
guts to do this, there will quickly be a hole in the ether for DX to 
be heard.

Gary
KA1J



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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-05 Thread Bill Cromwell
On Wed, 2012-12-05 at 11:47 -0700, Milt -- N5IA wrote:

> 
> All JA stations worked called me on my Run frequencies within the 'JA 
> Window'.
> 
> CU all in the SPDC.
> 
> 73 de Milt, N5IA, op at N7GP
> 

The JA window?

73,

Bill  KU8H

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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Peter Voelpel
The dx window was useful when only the range 1832-1835kHz was allowed here.
Nowadays we can use the whole spectrum starting at 1810kHz with some power
limitations above 1850kHz (75W) and higher (10W from 1890).

73
Peter, DJ7WW

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Cromwell

So what is this DX window? 1825 to 1830 kc? If that's where the DX calls and
transmits then where do W/VE stations transmit in reply? 1820 to 1825?
That's where I seem to hear W/VE stations calling CQ DX. I have at best a
regional station and I am just looking for some ragchew QSOs when I am on
the air. I have been dressed down for being stupid and calling CQ 1810 to
1820 because *everybody knows* there is no DX there.
Duh...that's the whole point. Is that somebody else's version of some other
window or just an arid desert? I already know where to not transmit to avoid
W1AW. Too close to the band edge for my drifty Ranger anyway.

So fill me in on where I should avoid looking for casual QSOs and where I
should look. I'm happy to share the band and observe DX windows.

73,

Bill  KU8H

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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Ian Wade G3NRW

___Original Message_
From: Tom W8JI 
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012   Time: 12:54:35

Without working together, we need the Government to make rules and 
impose penalties.


Tom

I'm not sure that Government intervention is a very good idea (it 
certainly wouldn't be in this country!), but you hit the nail fair and 
square on the head when you talk about penalties.


The contest rule makers should get real tough about stations who 
persistently work in the "wrong" part of the bands during contests. In 
CW contests we've all heard CW signals stomping all over the phone end 
of the band. In phone contests we've all heard phone stations all over 
the bottom part of the band. In RTTY contests ... well, we all know what 
happens there.


"Three verifiable complaints and you're out" should be the rule. With 
SDR receivers available these days, that shouldn't be too difficult to 
police.


--
73
Ian, G3NRW

>

>

>

>

>








































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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-05 Thread Milt -- N5IA

An examination of my log reveals the following:

Of the true DX stations worked from my AZ operating location

16 stations called me on my Run frequencies over the two nights, and

I found and worked 4 stations in the 'DX Window' between 1.830 and 1.835.

I confess that I worked ONE each 5th District K station within the window 
during one of my sweeps of the band.  Obviously I wasn't paying attention. 
My MO is to NOT work K/N/W/VE stations in the 'DX Window'.


All JA stations worked called me on my Run frequencies within the 'JA 
Window'.


CU all in the SPDC.

73 de Milt, N5IA, op at N7GP


-Original Message- 
From: Bill and Liz

Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 10:29 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: DX WINDOW

FWIW, about half of the DX I worked in last weekend's contest was in the 
1830-35 "window".  I run only barefoot, and having some space where there 
are no big east coast CQ machines certainly helps the SOLP and QRP ops.


I realize that many topband contesters have no use for LP or QRP; however, 
keeping in mind that the contests are for everyone, a little space for the 
little guys would be very nice.  Of course, I don't think it's going to 
happen!


BTW, it sure is fun creeping in under some of these CQ machines who, in many 
cases are alligators, and working DX.  Sort of burns 'em up when you don't 
answer!!


Bill VE3CSK/VE3NH 


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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Tom W8JI

So there is confused information about DX windows and digital windows
and callig windows and useless windows. Once upon a time there was
something called "gentlemen's agreements" and the "DX window" was part
of that. Most of us don't really let the ARRL dictate to us what we will
or won't do. So we can ignore their lack of a DX window if we choose. I
cannot control what other hams do on the air and I have no desire to do
so (better things to to do).


I'm sorry to hear that. Hams do better when they work for a common good, 
even if it doesn't serve what they feel like doing. Without working 
together, we need the Government to make rules and impose penalties. 


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Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-05 Thread Bill and Liz
FWIW, about half of the DX I worked in last weekend's contest was in the 
1830-35 "window".  I run only barefoot, and having some space where there are 
no big east coast CQ machines certainly helps the SOLP and QRP ops.

I realize that many topband contesters have no use for LP or QRP; however, 
keeping in mind that the contests are for everyone, a little space for the 
little guys would be very nice.  Of course, I don't think it's going to happen!

BTW, it sure is fun creeping in under some of these CQ machines who, in many 
cases are alligators, and working DX.  Sort of burns 'em up when you don't 
answer!! 

Bill VE3CSK/VE3NH
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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Chortek, Robert L


On Dec 5, 2012, at 8:42 AM, "Bill Cromwell"  wrote:

> 
> So what is this DX window? 1825 to 1830 kc? If that's where the DX calls
> and transmits then where do W/VE stations transmit in reply?

The idea is that W/VE stations do not call CQ in the window, but can respond to 
a DX station who is calling there.  Respond on the DX frequency unless, of 
course the DX is working split.

> That's where I seem to hear W/VE stations calling CQ DX.

Yes, and that is part of the "problem" the DX window is trying to address.

73,

Bob AA6VB
> 
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
> 

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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV



It is much like billionaires making rules for the middle class and
working poor.


It's also like those who don't pay income tax deciding how much those
who pay income taxes should pay and how those taxes are spent or those
who don't own property determining how much those who own property
should be taxed for that property for the benefit of others.  However,
since this is not a political science reflector the comments are off
topic.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 12/5/2012 11:21 AM, Tom W8JI wrote:

...and that loss of the DX window is sadly, dear readers, why you will
seldom hear DX stations outside of Europe and North America CQing
on 160m in the CQ contests. Bit of a shame really, but that's
(so-called) progress.


I never understood, and never agreed with the "160 committee" abolishing
the DX window.

I thought it showed people with larger stations on the east coast have
lost touch with life with smaller stations in difficult areas. It is
much like billionaires making rules for the middle class and working poor.

Certainly large stations on the coast have little or no use for a DX
only area, but I can't imagine what possessed someone to think that was
a good idea for people distant from saltwater paths.
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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Bill Cromwell
So there is confused information about DX windows and digital windows
and callig windows and useless windows. Once upon a time there was
something called "gentlemen's agreements" and the "DX window" was part
of that. Most of us don't really let the ARRL dictate to us what we will
or won't do. So we can ignore their lack of a DX window if we choose. I
cannot control what other hams do on the air and I have no desire to do
so (better things to to do).

So what is this DX window? 1825 to 1830 kc? If that's where the DX calls
and transmits then where do W/VE stations transmit in reply? 1820 to
1825? That's where I seem to hear W/VE stations calling CQ DX. I have at
best a regional station and I am just looking for some ragchew QSOs when
I am on the air. I have been dressed down for being stupid and calling
CQ 1810 to 1820 because *everybody knows* there is no DX there.
Duh...that's the whole point. Is that somebody else's version of some
other window or just an arid desert? I already know where to not
transmit to avoid W1AW. Too close to the band edge for my drifty Ranger
anyway.

So fill me in on where I should avoid looking for casual QSOs and where
I should look. I'm happy to share the band and observe DX windows.

73,

Bill  KU8H

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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Eddy Swynar

On 2012-12-05, at 11:33 AM, Lennart M wrote:

> 
> Well, from a "DX perspective" I do not care much about band differenciation,
> we do have equal distance to Far East and the Pacific as to SA, NA east
> coast being close by and when 160 opens to NA west coast and KL7/KH6 they
> are good enough to break thru any other pile, this is a Hobby


Hi Len,

Yes, for sure, but keep in mind that we're only talking about the setting aside 
of a mere FIVE KILOHERTZ of the band for this use! Now, a 5-KHz preserve may 
not mean much to a super NA CQ TEST machine, but it could mean all the 
difference in the world for making cross-continental QSOs for many---on BOTH 
sides of the signal path.

~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ
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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Lennart M

W8JI said:
"I never understood, and never agreed with the "160 committee" abolishing
the DX window.

I thought it showed people with larger stations on the east coast have lost
touch with life with smaller stations in difficult areas. It is much like
billionaires making rules for the middle class and working poor.

Certainly large stations on the coast have little or no use for a DX only
area, but I can't imagine what possessed someone to think that was a good
idea for people distant from saltwater paths."

Well, from a "DX perspective" I do not care much about band differenciation,
we do have equal distance to Far East and the Pacific as to SA, NA east
coast being close by and when 160 opens to NA west coast and KL7/KH6 they
are good enough to break thru any other pile, this is a Hobby, 73 all.
Len
SM7BIC



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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Tom W8JI

...and that loss of the DX window is sadly, dear readers, why you will
seldom hear DX stations outside of Europe and North America CQing on 160m 
in

the CQ contests.
Bit of a shame really, but that's (so-called) progress.


I never understood, and never agreed with the "160 committee" abolishing the 
DX window.


I thought it showed people with larger stations on the east coast have lost 
touch with life with smaller stations in difficult areas. It is much like 
billionaires making rules for the middle class and working poor.


Certainly large stations on the coast have little or no use for a DX only 
area, but I can't imagine what possessed someone to think that was a good 
idea for people distant from saltwater paths. 


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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Gary Smith
That is exactly what I did. I bypassed the US/VE stations in there 
calling CQ. I felt they were being selfish and not part of the fun.

Gary KA1J

> A way to bring back the DX Window is to not work US stations who call
> CQ in the window. Boycott them if you will.
> 
>  Dave WX7G
> ___
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> 



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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread DAVID CUTHBERT
A way to bring back the DX Window is to not work US stations who call CQ in
the window. Boycott them if you will.

 Dave WX7G
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Re: Topband: DX window

2012-12-05 Thread Steve Ireland
...and that loss of the DX window is sadly, dear readers, why you will
seldom hear DX stations outside of Europe and North America CQing on 160m in
the CQ contests.

We 'search and pounce' and the loud Eu and NA superstations who can hold a
frequency benefit. For those not blessed with a four-square or a big
vertical and lots of watts (i.e. the vast majority), this means looking for
us outside of a contest is the way.

Bit of a shame really, but that's (so-called) progress.

Vy 73

Steve, VK6VZ

SNIP:

"That so called dx window on 160m does not exist...It hasn't existed for
many years."



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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Jon Zaimes AA1K
So if the League is going to persist with this antiquated rule is 
someone at HQ writing down the calls of all the violators? Will there be 
disqualifications?


73/Jon AA1K


On 12/1/2012 3:20 PM, Missouri Guy wrote:

Carol, N2MM
  
Rule 6.1 for the ARRL 160...


"The segment 1.830 to 1.835 should be used for
intercontinental QSOs only".

Note that it says "should be".  IMHO, following the suggestion
just makes the contest more fun for everyone.
  
Charlie, N0TT


On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 00:54:30 -0500 "Carol Richards" 
writes:

That so called dx window on 160m does not exist...It hasn't existed
for many years.


Carol
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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Jorge Diez - CX6VM
That´s mean SA-NA also  or just NA/SA to EU?

73.
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

-Mensaje original-
De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Missouri
Guy
Enviado el: sábado, 01 de diciembre de 2012 18:21
Para: n...@comcast.net; topband@contesting.com
Asunto: Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

Carol, N2MM
 
Rule 6.1 for the ARRL 160...

"The segment 1.830 to 1.835 should be used for intercontinental QSOs only".

Note that it says "should be".  IMHO, following the suggestion just makes
the contest more fun for everyone.
 
Charlie, N0TT

On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 00:54:30 -0500 "Carol Richards" 
writes:
> That so called dx window on 160m does not exist...It hasn't existed 
> for many years.
> 
> 
> Carol
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
> 
> 
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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread W2RU - Bud Hippisley
And, pray tell, how does a W or VE solicit "international QSOs" in that segment?

IF (and I emphasize the IF) such a rule is desired, wouldn't it be smarter to 
have it read something along the lines of "Only non-W/VE stations may call CQ 
in the segment 1.830 to 1.835."?

Bud, W2RU

On Dec 1, 2012, at 2:38 PM, Tom Haavisto  wrote:

> From the contest rules:
> 
> 6.1.  The segment 1.830 to 1.835 should be used for intercontinental QSOs 
> only.
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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Missouri Guy
Carol, N2MM
 
Rule 6.1 for the ARRL 160...

"The segment 1.830 to 1.835 should be used for 
intercontinental QSOs only".

Note that it says "should be".  IMHO, following the suggestion
just makes the contest more fun for everyone.
 
Charlie, N0TT

On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 00:54:30 -0500 "Carol Richards" 
writes:
> That so called dx window on 160m does not exist...It hasn't existed 
> for many years.
> 
> 
> Carol
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
> 
> 
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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Doug Renwick
Sam, remember the opposite can and is true.  I called you near the beginning
of this contest and you didn't hear me.

Doug/VA5DX

-Original Message-

Spent whole night 2200z-0600z with 49 QSO's in the LOG.
Find one moment free frequence to call CQ. 1 call back to me from VE.
That's all. Full band 1800 KHz - 1880 kHz full of W/VE station's
making QSO's each-other, they are very LOUD, but don't hear EU :(
Maybe next night would be much more better!?

Sam LY5W will be ready at 2130z
49 QSO, 23 section's, long list of station's called but not worked,
called dozen of W5/W0 too with no luck

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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Tom Haavisto
>From the contest rules:

6.1.  The segment 1.830 to 1.835 should be used for intercontinental QSOs only.


--

So, while the window might not "officially" exist, one is specifically
mentioned in the rules.


Tom - VE3CX





On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Carol Richards  wrote:
> That so called dx window on 160m does not exist...It hasn't existed for many 
> years.
>
>
> Carol
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
___
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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Ray Benny
All,

I agree that there should be a real 160M DX Window. At least we might hear
some DX outside of NA/SA. My main reason I operate 160m is to work DX - its
very challenging from the West Coast and requires good antennas and
operating skills.

And, I do realize that the the "ARRL 160M Contest" does not have the work
"DX" in it, so like the ARRL 10m contest, we work anyone we hear. However,
10m is a large band with plenty of room to spread out. Perhaps the same can
be said about 160m, but then you need and antenna that will cover 100 KHZ
or more.

Living in NA, this contest is turning into "another" domestic contest. I
feel have enough of them?

BTW, I do operate the other 160m DX contests, but expeditions like the 5T0
and 7P8 are not around very often.

My 2 cents!

Ray,
N6VR
Chino Valley, AZ

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Saulius Zalnerauskas wrote:

> I'm feeling good. And lot of optimism for next night :)
> Result in contest is not very interesting, I need only some states to
> finish my WAS - 160m. From 5/7/0 area's.
> W0SD (S.D.) was great s7-8 during few hour's, called many times,
> but.K0HA (NE) not so strong but some s5-7. Heard him few times.
> N8OO (LA) in morning hours s9 - worked only state-side,many many
> call's.
> VY2ZM and K3ZM those two biggest signals, over s9.
>
> Biggest signal's were 22-0145z. Later snow and QRM. About 04-05z all
> station's dissapear. Only few BIG ONE's.
>
> 73, Sam LY5W
> Vertical , BV, KW
>
>
> On 12/1/12, Jim F. <> wrote:
> > Hi Saulius,
> >
> > I know (almost) exactly how you feel  :-)
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > jim / W1FMR / QRP.
> >
> >
> >
>  > --- On Sat, 12/1/12, Saulius Zalnerauskas <> wrote:
> >
>
> > Spent whole night 2200z-0600z with 49 QSO's in the LOG.
> > Find one moment free frequence to call CQ. 1 call back to me from VE.
> > That's all. Full band 1800 KHz - 1880 kHz full of W/VE station's
> > making QSO's each-other, they are very LOUD, but don't hear EU :(
> > Maybe next night would be much more better!?
> >
> > Sam LY5W will be ready at 2130z
> > 49 QSO, 23 section's, long list of station's called but not worked,
> > called dozen of W5/W0 too with no luck
> >
> > On 12/1/12, Eddy Swynar <> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2012-12-01, at 8:39 AM, Eddy Swynar wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I personally think that the notion of keeping 1825 - 1830-KHz "clean"
> of
> >>> NA stations calling CQ is a good one...
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> Obviously this "typo" was a test meant to see if anyone was awake
> yet...!
> >> Hi
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Of course I MEANT to say 1830- to 1835-KHz---but fat fingers (and a
> >> skinny
> >> mind) got in the way.
> >>
> >> Thanks go to Bert for keeping things on an even keel here...
> >>
> >> ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ
> > ___
> > Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
> >
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
>
___
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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Saulius Zalnerauskas
I'm feeling good. And lot of optimism for next night :)
Result in contest is not very interesting, I need only some states to
finish my WAS - 160m. From 5/7/0 area's.
W0SD (S.D.) was great s7-8 during few hour's, called many times,
but.K0HA (NE) not so strong but some s5-7. Heard him few times.
N8OO (LA) in morning hours s9 - worked only state-side,many many
call's.
VY2ZM and K3ZM those two biggest signals, over s9.

Biggest signal's were 22-0145z. Later snow and QRM. About 04-05z all
station's dissapear. Only few BIG ONE's.

73, Sam LY5W
Vertical , BV, KW


On 12/1/12, Jim F. <> wrote:
> Hi Saulius,
>
> I know (almost) exactly how you feel  :-)
>
> 73,
>
> jim / W1FMR / QRP.
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 12/1/12, Saulius Zalnerauskas <> wrote:
>

> Spent whole night 2200z-0600z with 49 QSO's in the LOG.
> Find one moment free frequence to call CQ. 1 call back to me from VE.
> That's all. Full band 1800 KHz - 1880 kHz full of W/VE station's
> making QSO's each-other, they are very LOUD, but don't hear EU :(
> Maybe next night would be much more better!?
>
> Sam LY5W will be ready at 2130z
> 49 QSO, 23 section's, long list of station's called but not worked,
> called dozen of W5/W0 too with no luck
>
> On 12/1/12, Eddy Swynar <> wrote:
>>
>> On 2012-12-01, at 8:39 AM, Eddy Swynar wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I personally think that the notion of keeping 1825 - 1830-KHz "clean" of
>>> NA stations calling CQ is a good one...
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Obviously this "typo" was a test meant to see if anyone was awake yet...!
>> Hi
>> Hi
>>
>> Of course I MEANT to say 1830- to 1835-KHz---but fat fingers (and a
>> skinny
>> mind) got in the way.
>>
>> Thanks go to Bert for keeping things on an even keel here...
>>
>> ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
>
___
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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Jim F.
Hi Saulius,
 
I know (almost) exactly how you feel  :-)  
 
73,
 
jim / W1FMR / QRP.
 


--- On Sat, 12/1/12, Saulius Zalnerauskas  wrote:


From: Saulius Zalnerauskas 
Subject: Re: Topband: DX WINDOW
To: "Eddy Swynar" 
Cc: topband@contesting.com, "Carol Richards" 
Date: Saturday, December 1, 2012, 10:37 AM


Spent whole night 2200z-0600z with 49 QSO's in the LOG.
Find one moment free frequence to call CQ. 1 call back to me from VE.
That's all. Full band 1800 KHz - 1880 kHz full of W/VE station's
making QSO's each-other, they are very LOUD, but don't hear EU :(
Maybe next night would be much more better!?

Sam LY5W will be ready at 2130z
49 QSO, 23 section's, long list of station's called but not worked,
called dozen of W5/W0 too with no luck

On 12/1/12, Eddy Swynar <> wrote:
>
> On 2012-12-01, at 8:39 AM, Eddy Swynar wrote:
>
>>
>> I personally think that the notion of keeping 1825 - 1830-KHz "clean" of
>> NA stations calling CQ is a good one...
>>
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Obviously this "typo" was a test meant to see if anyone was awake yet...! Hi
> Hi
>
> Of course I MEANT to say 1830- to 1835-KHz---but fat fingers (and a skinny
> mind) got in the way.
>
> Thanks go to Bert for keeping things on an even keel here...
>
> ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ
___
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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Bill Cromwell
On Sat, 2012-12-01 at 10:20 -0500, Eddy Swynar wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> Obviously this "typo" was a test meant to see if anyone was awake yet...! Hi 
> Hi
> 
> Of course I MEANT to say 1830- to 1835-KHz---but fat fingers (and a skinny 
> mind) got in the way.
> 
> Thanks go to Bert for keeping things on an even keel here...
> 
> ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ


Hi Eddy,

One problem I have is identifying a DX window. I have read several
different versions and if I live by all of them I will be transmitting
on 80 meters (evil grin). I also wouldn't promote interfering with any
QSO in progress even if it is just a DX station ('nuther evil grin). So
not having a clear, unanimous agreement on a "DX window" the best I can
do is listen (more than 2 seconds) for signs of life and then inquiring
before hollering. Even if I can't hear the DX I know what a pile sounds
like - a sure clue that DX is somewhere nearby.

Once upon a time an inquiry of whether the frequency is in use was two
quick dits. If a "c" came back it's in use. Much quicker than "QRL?"
followed by expletives and curses and name calling. I used that and
still do. If no "c" then I go to "QRL?" All of that preceded by some
listening time. If somebody IS using the frequency and can't reply
sometime during all of that.. well.. I'm going for it. That's my best
offer.

The Ranger needs some attention - again. QRT on 160 for the moment. Hope
to be up before the Stew.

73,

Bill  KU8H

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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Saulius Zalnerauskas
Spent whole night 2200z-0600z with 49 QSO's in the LOG.
Find one moment free frequence to call CQ. 1 call back to me from VE.
That's all. Full band 1800 KHz - 1880 kHz full of W/VE station's
making QSO's each-other, they are very LOUD, but don't hear EU :(
Maybe next night would be much more better!?

Sam LY5W will be ready at 2130z
49 QSO, 23 section's, long list of station's called but not worked,
called dozen of W5/W0 too with no luck

On 12/1/12, Eddy Swynar <> wrote:
>
> On 2012-12-01, at 8:39 AM, Eddy Swynar wrote:
>
>>
>> I personally think that the notion of keeping 1825 - 1830-KHz "clean" of
>> NA stations calling CQ is a good one...
>>
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Obviously this "typo" was a test meant to see if anyone was awake yet...! Hi
> Hi
>
> Of course I MEANT to say 1830- to 1835-KHz---but fat fingers (and a skinny
> mind) got in the way.
>
> Thanks go to Bert for keeping things on an even keel here...
>
> ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ
___
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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Eddy Swynar

On 2012-12-01, at 8:39 AM, Eddy Swynar wrote:

> 
> I personally think that the notion of keeping 1825 - 1830-KHz "clean" of NA 
> stations calling CQ is a good one...
> 



Hi All,

Obviously this "typo" was a test meant to see if anyone was awake yet...! Hi Hi

Of course I MEANT to say 1830- to 1835-KHz---but fat fingers (and a skinny 
mind) got in the way.

Thanks go to Bert for keeping things on an even keel here...

~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ
___
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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Eddy Swynar

On 2012-12-01, at 12:54 AM, Carol Richards wrote:

> That so called dx window on 160m does not exist...It hasn't existed for many 
> years.



Well FWIW,

I personally think that the notion of keeping 1825 - 1830-KHz "clean" of NA 
stations calling CQ is a good one...

We bemoan the fact that this contest is, in essence, just a "WAS" contest, or, 
"...Son of SS"---but what of the DX station that might enter this fray with the 
express purpose of working a new State, or two, but that can't be heard because 
of all of the CQ machines grinding away on the band...? The are few incentives 
for an overseas station to take part now as it is: why create another 
dis-incentive by turning a blind eye to all of the domestic "pollution" in that 
5-KHz segment...?

I enjoy tuning that segment myself, on the chance of hearing anything outside 
of the USA & Canada: if I do, I'll work them---then leave the window.

It's the "gentlemanly" thing to do, IMHO...!

~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ


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Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-12-01 Thread Roger Parsons
The DX window (most unfortunately) does not exist for normal operation. It does 
however exist for the ARRL 160m contest:

"6. Miscellaneous:
6.1. The segment 1.830 to 1.835 should be used for intercontinental QSOs only."

73 Roger
VE3ZI

PS: Sorry, but those needing ONN will have to chase VE3CX. I tried, but just 
couldn't stand it
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Re: Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-11-30 Thread Gary Smith
If it doesn't exist thats because some stateside people stopped using 
it and the DX didn't. But whatever it is called that doesn't exist, 
that's where I found all my multipliers except one.

Gary
KA1J 

> That so called dx window on 160m does not exist...It hasn't existed
> for many years.
> 
> 
> Carol
> ___
> Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
> 



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Topband: DX WINDOW

2012-11-30 Thread Carol Richards
That so called dx window on 160m does not exist...It hasn't existed for many 
years.


Carol
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Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-08-31 Thread Tom W8JI
While my humble station & mediocre efforts in the various Topband contests 
hardly matter much, I try & make it a point to stay off of those "window 
frequencies", unless I'm responding directly to a DX station that I might 
hear thereon...>>>


I think most contests prohibit or frown upon NA stations CQing in the DX 
Window. This should also include the keying or spurious sidebands of those 
stations.   Nothing wrong with answering the DX, but I think most 160 
contests prohibit or discourage CQ's.


___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK


Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-08-31 Thread Eddy Swynar

On 2012-08-31, at 10:12 AM, Hardy Landskov wrote:

> This is the reason I don't contest on 160 anymore. No DX window and endless 
> CQ machines turn the band into just a trashy mess.


Hi Guys,

While my humble station & mediocre efforts in the various Topband contests 
hardly matter much, I try & make it a point to stay off of those "window 
frequencies", unless I'm responding directly to a DX station that I might hear 
thereon...

It annoys me---for all the old & passe reasons, I guess!---to hear North 
American CQ Test powerhouse machines cranking endlessly away, atop both DX & 
domestic stations in the segment struggling to work one another. There's plenty 
of space to "park & bark" elsewhere on the band, irregardless of the 5-KHz wide 
"sacrifice", IMHO...

~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ

___
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Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-08-31 Thread Hardy Landskov
This is the reason I don't contest on 160 anymore. No DX window and endless 
CQ machines turn the band into just a trashy mess.

N7RT

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom W8JI" 

To: ; 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: DX Window


Out west in flyover country we rue the day. Tom is spot on. I too stay 
out of 30-35 for CQing so my western brethren can potentially hear 
something. Very unfortunate to have the 30-35 window, which many DX 
stations use, clobbered by a very few thoughtless W CQ'ers.


I didn't realize recognition of the window is a has been. Out here, not 
the case.


This was done a long time ago.

I'd bet the different experiences of east coast stations dominated the 
decision to get rid of the "no USA transmit" DX window. Strong signals 
near DX is much less of a problem out east.

___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK 


___
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Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-08-30 Thread k6xt
And I bet its mostly evident there. As I said, out here many still 
observe the window, or think it surely should be.


73 Art K6XT~~
Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiasm.
ARRL, GMCC, CW OPS, NAQCC

On 8/30/2012 7:10 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
Out west in flyover country we rue the day. Tom is spot on. I too 
stay out of 30-35 for CQing so my western brethren can potentially 
hear something. Very unfortunate to have the 30-35 window, which many 
DX stations use, clobbered by a very few thoughtless W CQ'ers.


I didn't realize recognition of the window is a has been. Out here, 
not the case.


This was done a long time ago.

I'd bet the different experiences of east coast stations dominated the 
decision to get rid of the "no USA transmit" DX window. Strong signals 
near DX is much less of a problem out east.




___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK


Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-08-30 Thread Tom W8JI
Out west in flyover country we rue the day. Tom is spot on. I too stay out 
of 30-35 for CQing so my western brethren can potentially hear something. 
Very unfortunate to have the 30-35 window, which many DX stations use, 
clobbered by a very few thoughtless W CQ'ers.


I didn't realize recognition of the window is a has been. Out here, not 
the case.


This was done a long time ago.

I'd bet the different experiences of east coast stations dominated the 
decision to get rid of the "no USA transmit" DX window. Strong signals near 
DX is much less of a problem out east. 


___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK


Re: Topband: DX Window

2012-08-30 Thread k6xt
Out west in flyover country we rue the day. Tom is spot on. I too stay 
out of 30-35 for CQing so my western brethren can potentially hear 
something. Very unfortunate to have the 30-35 window, which many DX 
stations use, clobbered by a very few thoughtless W CQ'ers.


I didn't realize recognition of the window is a has been. Out here, not 
the case.


73 Art K6XT~~ Allison, southwest CO
Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiasm.
ARRL, GMCC, CW OPS, NAQCC

On 8/30/2012 5:13 PM, W8JI wrote:

I try to stay above 1835 or below 25 as much as possible, because I think
removing that clear area was a bad idea for stations distant from the coast,
who have to listen through the NE wall.


___
UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK


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