Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
Hi all! Very nice and useful discussion! Great! Can anybody tell experience about the Antec SMPSs. Thank you all and kind regards, 73 SG/VU3TKG On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:49 AM, Tom W8JI w...@w8ji.com wrote: Sorry I identified Corcom incorrectly. I checked a sample and the actual filters that I used were Delta Electronics 05DRCG5. http://c1170156.r56.cf3.rackcdn.com/UK_DEL_05DRDG3_DS.pdf That's better. That is a filter that suppresses CM and DM signals via capacitors, but it still looks like they common core all the chokes. :( _ Topband Reflector -- One of those ... ... _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
On 7/21/2013 8:49 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: I can't understand why throwing some ferrite beads at a problem, or changing the supply, are the only two solutions. Many times, if not most times, a few .01 uF line voltage rated bypass capacitors are significantly better than a sting of cores, or a winding through cores. Yes, IF the problem is differential-mode coupling to the power line. But often it is NOT -- Bypass capacitors will cure common mode also, because common mode cannot be generated without differential mode someplace in the system between two points. In virtually every situation, the power supply is in a metal box. The trash is between the power line leads, and also between those leads and the case. This is the nature of switching supplies, because they tie a chopper with squarewaves across the power mains, and the system is not well balanced. As a general rule the stuff exiting the dc side is much less problematic. If it is problematic, it needs cleaned up. Bypassing to the cabinet, groundplane, or case fixes or greatly assists in fixing it, too. If a line is properly bypassed to the case, the system can't produce much common mode or differential mode on that particular line. In the rarer case, where two or more lines are involved, they all must be suitably bypassed. The same things that work for lightning protection work for RFI issues, and vice versa. Payback for doing things right, rather than just tossing beads at wires, is much wider than the initial target. 73 Tom I certainly agree about not throwing ferrite at problem without understanding why. My introduction to serious line and computer noise was after moving here in 89 and I remembred a QST article by DeMaw a few years earlier where he introduced a differential mode noise filter using ferrite rods and caps in a pi filter. The line was noisy and I had just put my Commodore 64 out to pasture to be replaced on the new fangled DX Packet Cluster by a 386-33 PC with 12 monochrome monitor. It was soon also used for various DOS RF and other programs, Windoze 3.1 and a long learning curve. I built DeMaws circuit in a couple of outlet strips and used them for the PC and the TS-940's which were all on seperate circuits. Most of the noise was gone and using toroids on the keyboard and monitor cables took care of the rest. This was before ferrites were included from the factory. About 2-3 years ago when I took an interest in the LF frequencies I realized that DeMaws circuit wasnt effective down there and rebuilt the filters into 2 stage affairs with a 100KHz cutoff. There are now 6 PC's in the house and each got its own filter as well as the modern and boatanchor operating desks. A new level of quiet appeared as if by magic by attacking the differential noise first. Any remaining annoyances were locally radiated coming in via various antennas (including portable radio loopsticks and whips) which was eliminated by a lot of large 43 and then 31 toroids on power cords, router cables and some feedlines. With a couple of Beverages moved another 600-700' away back in the woods and feeding a new switch box and its own 1/2 CATV hardline run back to the house, even neighbors noise is mostly tolerable with noneso faron any good DX frequencies. Carl KM1H _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
I simply purchased 10 Corcom filters on ebay ( I think they were $2 each + shipping). I cut a power supply cord (universal plug type) about 6 inches from the computer and wired the filter into a plastic electrical box with the other end of the cord out the other end of the box. I used standard electrical cable clamps to secure the cable to the box and added the cheapest electrical plastic cover. The whole thing cost me about $6 each and I built 5 of them in a couple of hours. The boxes live behind the computer so the blue color appearance doesn't matter. When I purchased newer computers, I just moved the filtered cord to the new computers. That's OK, but be aware the corcom appears to be a typical design with limited value for choking isolation. See this page: http://www.cor.com/pdf/DA.pdf The windings appear to be linked magnetically, and the ground appears to have no isolation. This seriously limits the effectiveness of the filter, making it similar to beads over cords. The worse part is not having isolation on the ground path. The best part is the filter adds bypass capacitors, which when properly sized either assist any added iron core cord chokes, establish a low or controlled differential and common mode impedance, and often do a better job than any practical choke system or core does. I use a filter like this: http://www.w8ji.com/images/filters/filter7.gif It isolates and bypasses all three wires. One of my tricks in a suburban environment was a three wire plug with two .01 uF 250VAC UL/CSA bypass caps. No cord or anything on it. I moved that plug around my house until I found a sweet spot that eliminated conducted noise from the house next door. They had some battery charger that just tore up 80 and 160 through our common sharing of a pole transformer. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
Sorry I identified Corcom incorrectly. I checked a sample and the actual filters that I used were Delta Electronics 05DRCG5. http://disti-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/quistelectronics/files/datasheets/4322. pdf Tom -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom W8JI Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 3:42 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question I simply purchased 10 Corcom filters on ebay ( I think they were $2 each + shipping). I cut a power supply cord (universal plug type) about 6 inches from the computer and wired the filter into a plastic electrical box with the other end of the cord out the other end of the box. I used standard electrical cable clamps to secure the cable to the box and added the cheapest electrical plastic cover. The whole thing cost me about $6 each and I built 5 of them in a couple of hours. The boxes live behind the computer so the blue color appearance doesn't matter. When I purchased newer computers, I just moved the filtered cord to the new computers. That's OK, but be aware the corcom appears to be a typical design with limited value for choking isolation. See this page: http://www.cor.com/pdf/DA.pdf The windings appear to be linked magnetically, and the ground appears to have no isolation. This seriously limits the effectiveness of the filter, making it similar to beads over cords. The worse part is not having isolation on the ground path. The best part is the filter adds bypass capacitors, which when properly sized either assist any added iron core cord chokes, establish a low or controlled differential and common mode impedance, and often do a better job than any practical choke system or core does. I use a filter like this: http://www.w8ji.com/images/filters/filter7.gif It isolates and bypasses all three wires. One of my tricks in a suburban environment was a three wire plug with two .01 uF 250VAC UL/CSA bypass caps. No cord or anything on it. I moved that plug around my house until I found a sweet spot that eliminated conducted noise from the house next door. They had some battery charger that just tore up 80 and 160 through our common sharing of a pole transformer. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3349 / Virus Database: 3204/6513 - Release Date: 07/23/13 _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
Sorry I identified Corcom incorrectly. I checked a sample and the actual filters that I used were Delta Electronics 05DRCG5. http://c1170156.r56.cf3.rackcdn.com/UK_DEL_05DRDG3_DS.pdf That's better. That is a filter that suppresses CM and DM signals via capacitors, but it still looks like they common core all the chokes. :( _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
Another couple of points. About 10 years ago, at a local ham-fest, there was a guy selling brand new Lambda power supplies. They were adjustable from 10-15 V and he had models ranging from 20-50 amps. They were switching supplies. I couldn't pass these up and bought 7 or 8 of them. They were a bit on the noisy side RF wise...nothing horrible but enough to be noticeable. I ended up wiring in some CorCom line filters that I had around the house and it completely removed the noise. I've used these supplies for years including being used on a number of different DX-peditionsthey are light and fairly small. This fix worked just great. The CorCom filters are frequently seen at ham-fests and surplus outlets although you can buy them new through component distributors like Digi-Key and Mouser. There are many models and they differ in mainly two categories. Voltage/Current capacities and the mechanical connections for bringing line voltage in and out. The most common have Fast-On type spade terminals or solder posts but I've seen many variations. On 7/20/2013 4:11 PM, Gary K9GS wrote: Hi Clay, One thing you might want to check. See if you can get inside the power supply...disconnect it first. Take a look on the PCB near the power connector. There may be a space on the PCB where you can install a power line filtersomething like a CorCom or similar. Sometimes they leave them out on some models to save money. If you Google CorCom you find info on the different models...just be sure to get the correct ratings. They also sell filters with built-in IEC connectors. An IEC connector is what the power cord plugs into. you may be able to get one that works. On 7/20/2013 9:27 AM, Clay Melhorn wrote: Hello to the group.I recently built an AMD quadcore machine I intend to eventually replace my trusty XP Pro machines. Foolishly got in a hurry to complete the build and purchased a PS from a local shop.It supplies the power required without issue, I have discovered why the price was so good.Jim Brown will love this one, virtually no RFC filtering, you get what you pay for and I know betterjust didn't realize the noise from 40m and down would be SO intense particularly on a Delta pennantthat points back toward the shack's general direction. The XP machines are very quiet.Live and learn. Question: Looking at another good deal how do the COOLER MASTER PS's rate for RFC filteringor are there others brand I should be looking at? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171031nm_mc=EMC-EXPRESS072013cm_mmc=EMC-EXPRESS072013-_-EMC-072013-Index-_-PowerSupplies-_-17171031-L04B Will likely not waste time trying to make a Cadillac out of the Yugo I purchased. Thankyou in advance, Clay Melhorn N9IO Bonfield, ILWebmaster: KARS - Kankakee Area Radio Society - W9AZ http://www.w9az.com/ _ Topband Reflector -- 73, Gary K9GS Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
I ended up wiring in some CorCom line filters that I had around the house and it completely removed the noise. I've used these supplies for years including being used on a number of different DX-peditionsthey are light and fairly small. This fix worked just great. I can't understand why throwing some ferrite beads at a problem, or changing the supply, are the only two solutions. Many times, if not most times, a few .01 uF line voltage rated bypass capacitors are significantly better than a sting of cores, or a winding through cores. In the first place, we can add cores over power cords or other multi-conductor cables until the cows come home, and it won't change differential mode suppression. Differential excitation can be as bad as common mode excitation, because lines are always unbalanced some small distance away from the noise source. There was a computer about a mile or two from me, perhaps further, and it was exciting the telco and power lines in differential mode. The lines acted like transmission lines with fairly low loss, and the noise went for miles. I bought the lady a lighting protection outlet strip with internal bypass capacitors, no series beads added, and the problem vanished. There are two excitation modes that cause problems, and beads across multiple conductors don't do a thing for differential mode. Beads also have a varying effect on common mode, because the common mode impedance of the system has to be very LOW in comparison to bead series impedance in order for beads (or any series impedance) to have a large effect. A high CM or DM system impedance, or an uncontrolled impedance, is what causes us to have poor results, or what makes a system require astronomical and/or impractical choking impedances. I solved all my computer issues 15 years ago. I built a line filter box that has individual series chokes on each power mains lead, and bypasses the line source side of the lines to the safety ground and box ground. The computer side ground pin floats from the chassis by a high current RF choke, and the socket is bypassed only to the cord's safety ground on that side. In conjunction with proper shack wiring, enclosures, and RF cables, I can use any supply or computer I like. A few hours proper work saved me years of problems. Some line filters, by the way, are not built correctly. Some fail to address the common mode, others fail to address the differential mode. But the poorest and most unreliable system of all is the system that just throws beads at a problem. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
On 7/21/2013 8:49 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: I can't understand why throwing some ferrite beads at a problem, or changing the supply, are the only two solutions. Many times, if not most times, a few .01 uF line voltage rated bypass capacitors are significantly better than a sting of cores, or a winding through cores. Yes, IF the problem is differential-mode coupling to the power line. But often it is NOT -- if the trash is coupled to the power cable as a common mode voltage on the green wire, those capacitors won't do a thing. There are also times that because of the way a product is built, it is not practical to modify it. Or because the owner might wish to avoid a warranty issue. If the problem is common mode, a ferrite choke is by far the best solution, and often the only solution. A very common way that trash ends up as common mode on the green wire is when the green wire fails to contact the chassis (or shielding enclosure) where it enters the unit, but instead wanders around circuit common before it MAY or may not find the chassis. All three of my linear Astron supplies have this problem -- the green wire goes to the retaining lug of a traditional terminal strip, that is insulated from the chassis by paint. Circuit common also goes to that lug. More often the problem is intentional, and the result of cost-cutting in the design process. Yes, opening up the unit and correcting it fixed those Astrons, but many products with this sort of problem cannot be fixed without major surgery. For all of these reasons, I continue to recommend the use of common mode chokes that are optimized for the frequency range of the interference. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
On 7/21/2013 8:49 AM, Tom W8JI wrote: I can't understand why throwing some ferrite beads at a problem, or changing the supply, are the only two solutions. Many times, if not most times, a few .01 uF line voltage rated bypass capacitors are significantly better than a sting of cores, or a winding through cores. Yes, IF the problem is differential-mode coupling to the power line. But often it is NOT -- Bypass capacitors will cure common mode also, because common mode cannot be generated without differential mode someplace in the system between two points. In virtually every situation, the power supply is in a metal box. The trash is between the power line leads, and also between those leads and the case. This is the nature of switching supplies, because they tie a chopper with squarewaves across the power mains, and the system is not well balanced. As a general rule the stuff exiting the dc side is much less problematic. If it is problematic, it needs cleaned up. Bypassing to the cabinet, groundplane, or case fixes or greatly assists in fixing it, too. If a line is properly bypassed to the case, the system can't produce much common mode or differential mode on that particular line. In the rarer case, where two or more lines are involved, they all must be suitably bypassed. The same things that work for lightning protection work for RFI issues, and vice versa. Payback for doing things right, rather than just tossing beads at wires, is much wider than the initial target. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
On 7/21/2013 4:52 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: Bypass capacitors will cure common mode also, because common mode cannot be generated without differential mode someplace in the system between two points. But you're re-engineering someone else's design, without knowledge of all the issues.That's a questionable practice unless you're a circuit designer -- it's easy to open a can of worms. Few hams are qualified to do that, and I would be the last to recommend it. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
Not a new problem for hams. For most of a century consumer stuff had poor to nonexistent RFI compatibility... And if the equipment itself wasn't so bad, it was connected with huge loops of wires that made the installation susceptible. Adding a few bypass capacitors and helping the consumer use decent differential wiring has been part of the solution since at least the 1930's handbooks. Except today we are more often worried about radiation and not susceptibility of consumer stuff. Tim N3QE - Original Message - From: Jim Brown [mailto:j...@audiosystemsgroup.com] Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 08:37 PM To: topband@contesting.com topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question On 7/21/2013 4:52 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: Bypass capacitors will cure common mode also, because common mode cannot be generated without differential mode someplace in the system between two points. But you're re-engineering someone else's design, without knowledge of all the issues.That's a questionable practice unless you're a circuit designer -- it's easy to open a can of worms. Few hams are qualified to do that, and I would be the last to recommend it. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
On 07/21/2013 08:37 PM, Jim Brown wrote: But you're re-engineering someone else's design, without knowledge of all the issues.That's a questionable practice unless you're a circuit designer -- it's easy to open a can of worms. Few hams are qualified to do that, and I would be the last to recommend it. 73, Jim K9YC _ Hi, Unless I missed something we are talking tampering with our own gear - our own possessions. I would be reluctant to ever so much as touch somebody else's consumer equipment. However I have bought brand new radio gear and after running a day or two turned it off, opened it up, and customized it. None of that stuff failed to run as expected. Other gear I just opened up, tearing the Do not open - no user serviceable parts inside nonsense tag. I satisfied my questions about how it works and how it was built. How awful that some of us actually build electrical equipment from scratch! YMMV. 73, Bill KU8H _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
I think that both W8JI and K9YC have made good points and a discerning ham can make an intelligent choice. Next topic ! Dale N3BNA From: Bill Cromwell wrcromw...@gmail.com To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 12:41 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question On 07/21/2013 08:37 PM, Jim Brown wrote: But you're re-engineering someone else's design, without knowledge of all the issues.That's a questionable practice unless you're a circuit designer -- it's easy to open a can of worms. Few hams are qualified to do that, and I would be the last to recommend it. 73, Jim K9YC _ Hi, Unless I missed something we are talking tampering with our own gear - our own possessions. I would be reluctant to ever so much as touch somebody else's consumer equipment. However I have bought brand new radio gear and after running a day or two turned it off, opened it up, and customized it. None of that stuff failed to run as expected. Other gear I just opened up, tearing the Do not open - no user serviceable parts inside nonsense tag. I satisfied my questions about how it works and how it was built. How awful that some of us actually build electrical equipment from scratch! YMMV. 73, Bill KU8H _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
Hello to the group.I recently built an AMD quadcore machine I intend to eventually replace my trusty XP Pro machines. Foolishly got in a hurry to complete the build and purchased a PS from a local shop.It supplies the power required without issue, I have discovered why the price was so good.Jim Brown will love this one, virtually no RFC filtering, you get what you pay for and I know betterjust didn't realize the noise from 40m and down would be SO intense particularly on a Delta pennantthat points back toward the shack's general direction. The XP machines are very quiet.Live and learn. Question: Looking at another good deal how do the COOLER MASTER PS's rate for RFC filteringor are there others brand I should be looking at? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171031nm_mc=EMC-EXPRESS072013cm_mmc=EMC-EXPRESS072013-_-EMC-072013-Index-_-PowerSupplies-_-17171031-L04B Will likely not waste time trying to make a Cadillac out of the Yugo I purchased. Thankyou in advance, Clay Melhorn N9IO Bonfield, ILWebmaster: KARS - Kankakee Area Radio Society - W9AZ http://www.w9az.com/ _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
On 7/20/2013 7:27 AM, Clay Melhorn wrote: Looking at another good deal how do the COOLER MASTER PS's rate for RFC filteringor are there others brand I should be looking at? For about ten years, my computers have been T4x-series Thinkpads, and they have been pretty RF-quiet. Before that, I used the premium PC Power and Cooling power supplies for my computers, and found them RF-quiet. But that was ten years ago, and things can change. Depending on how the beast you bought is built, you MAY be able to cool it off by winding turns of the power cord through a #31 toroid, and by doing the same with other cables that leave the box. Or maybe not. Note that the link you posted says almost nothing about EMC -- the only thing is under compliance, where several safety and EMC standards are cited, with the condition passive models. My guess is that is a broad as a barndoor spec that does NOT apply to the $40 unit. :) 73, Jim K9YC 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
As nothing remains on the market long before it's replaced, my PS from two years ago has been superseded. Mine is a PC Power Cooling Silencer 760W. Were I to get one today I would choose their 950 watt version http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703028 The reason I like this PS is it is dead quiet RF-wise acoustic-wise I can't hear it over the fan on the processor. It's a very reliable unit and frankly, most any of the ones that get lots of eggs from reviews on Newegg will meet your needs. Amazing that people are still selling RF generators as PS. I got burned 4-5 years back and never bought a cheap one again. 73, Gary KA1J Hello to the group.I recently built an AMD quadcore machine I intend to eventually replace my trusty XP Pro machines. Foolishly got in a hurry to complete the build and purchased a PS from a local shop.It supplies the power required without issue, I have discovered why the price was so good.Jim Brown will love this one, virtually no RFC filtering, you get what you pay for and I know betterjust didn't realize the noise from 40m and down would be SO intense particularly on a Delta pennantthat points back toward the shack's general direction. The XP machines are very quiet.Live and learn. Question: Looking at another good deal how do the COOLER MASTER PS's rate for RFC filteringor are there others brand I should be looking at? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171031nm_m c=EMC-EXPRESS072013cm_mmc=EMC-EXPRESS072013-_-EMC-072013-Index-_-Po werSupplies-_-17171031-L04B Will likely not waste time trying to make a Cadillac out of the Yugo I purchased. Thankyou in advance, Clay Melhorn N9IO Bonfield, ILWebmaster: KARS - Kankakee Area Radio Society - W9AZ http://www.w9az.com/ _ Topband Reflector _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
On 07/20/2013 11:55 AM, Gary Smith wrote: As nothing remains on the market long before it's replaced, my PS from two years ago has been superseded. Mine is a PC Power Cooling Silencer 760W. Were I to get one today I would choose their 950 watt version http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703028 The reason I like this PS is it is dead quiet RF-wise acoustic-wise I can't hear it over the fan on the processor. It's a very reliable unit and frankly, most any of the ones that get lots of eggs from reviews on Newegg will meet your needs. Amazing that people are still selling RF generators as PS. I got burned 4-5 years back and never bought a cheap one again. 73, Gary KA1J Hi, I live in a backwater area and when I needed a power supply for my computer they had cheap ones *only*. In this area it was all they could sell. I learned more about computer supplies than I ever wanted to know. I mail ordered a better power supply and used the el cheapo to learn how to quiet the danged things down. It's a better neighbor to the radios now. If my time is worth anything the higher priced supply is a better bargain than the cheap junk one and then fixing it up. With the modest price difference I made about 2 cents per hour doing all of that! 73, Bill KU8H _ Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Desktop Power Supply Brand/Noise Question
Hi Clay, One thing you might want to check. See if you can get inside the power supply...disconnect it first. Take a look on the PCB near the power connector. There may be a space on the PCB where you can install a power line filtersomething like a CorCom or similar. Sometimes they leave them out on some models to save money. If you Google CorCom you find info on the different models...just be sure to get the correct ratings. They also sell filters with built-in IEC connectors. An IEC connector is what the power cord plugs into. you may be able to get one that works. On 7/20/2013 9:27 AM, Clay Melhorn wrote: Hello to the group.I recently built an AMD quadcore machine I intend to eventually replace my trusty XP Pro machines. Foolishly got in a hurry to complete the build and purchased a PS from a local shop.It supplies the power required without issue, I have discovered why the price was so good.Jim Brown will love this one, virtually no RFC filtering, you get what you pay for and I know betterjust didn't realize the noise from 40m and down would be SO intense particularly on a Delta pennantthat points back toward the shack's general direction. The XP machines are very quiet.Live and learn. Question: Looking at another good deal how do the COOLER MASTER PS's rate for RFC filteringor are there others brand I should be looking at? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171031nm_mc=EMC-EXPRESS072013cm_mmc=EMC-EXPRESS072013-_-EMC-072013-Index-_-PowerSupplies-_-17171031-L04B Will likely not waste time trying to make a Cadillac out of the Yugo I purchased. Thankyou in advance, Clay Melhorn N9IO Bonfield, ILWebmaster: KARS - Kankakee Area Radio Society - W9AZ http://www.w9az.com/ _ Topband Reflector -- 73, Gary K9GS Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org _ Topband Reflector
