Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Guy, This *really* opened my eyes. Thank you, Mr. Wizard (no sarcasm intended)! It appears that FT8 is actually our friend, fellow long-time Topbanders, whether we intend to operate that mode or not. FWIW, I don't intend to use that mode. If I ever do, it won't be in the customary CW portion at the low end of 160. Use it or lose it, people! :-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Oct 25, 2017 10:32 PM, "Guy Olinger K2AV" wrote: >From time to time, tickling the RBN nodes on 160 proves that the band is open, sometimes nicely so. The almost constant FT8 signals nail it. People get on the band when they think there will be someone to talk to, this includes trying to get some elusive DX. In the end FT8 will prove that the band is there. The extent to which the band is actually open, by the constant FT8, will start to change people's thought about when the bands are normally open, both time of day and seasons. The number of CW contest logs submitted to contest sponsors is going up. This is decades after No Code. And it certainly seems like some ops are learning their CW skills after they have been a ham for a while. People have been saying that CW seemingly forever. I still love CW but truthfully I can't argue that it isn't obsolete. *** The question that doesn't get asked is whether CW is still FUN.*** If it's still fun, it ain't going away, including such as the thrill of digging a rare one on CW out of the noise with your own brain and ears. Anyone who was around when we lost 11 meters, knows that lack of activity loses frequencies. Bring it on. Bring it all on. We'll figure it out just fine. There are some really smart people in the ham ranks. We'll do OK 73, Guy K2AV On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:49 PM, Michael Walker wrote: > > Explain why on some nights there are many FT8 signals, and no CW signals. > No one calling CQ and everyone just listening. > > If you build it they will come. > > Mike va3mw _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
>>>AA6YQ comments below -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of John K9UWA Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 12:03 PM To: topBand List Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) Someone will develop a software program that takes the human voice or CW and packetize it much the same as cell phones already do into digital packet form. Then it will be added to the carrier or lack thereof similar to SSB and or CW. On the receive end the software will convert it back to analog. Once again we will hear the signal after it is processed into analog coming out of our speakers in either CW or Phone sounds. Perhaps a 7 to 10 second delay for all the processing to take place. >>>That was accomplished long ago, and without significant encoding or decoding >>>delays. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-STAR This FT8 program has the ability to extract the digital signals from the noise and process them up to 10-15 dB below the noise level. So why can't the human voice be processed in a similar manner? >>>Besides callsign and gridsquare information, FT8 can convey only 13 >>>characters of arbitrary alphanumeric text with each message; this is less than what would be required to convey a meaningful snippet of the (encoded) sender's voice. Technical details are provided in an article by Joe K1JT et al in the November issue of QST. >>>The K1JT modes employ ruthless encoding and error correction to enable >>>constrained communications when signal-to-noise ratios are far lower than what's required by other digital modes, CW or SSB. In terms of information content, human voice is quite inefficient; thus the developers of these modes are unlikely to extend them to convey voice. 73, Dave, AA6YQ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Someone will develop a software program that takes the human voice or CW and packetize it much the same as cell phones already do into digital packet form. Then it will be added to the carrier or lack thereof similar to SSB and or CW. On the receive end the software will convert it back to analog. Once again we will hear the signal after it is processed into analog coming out of our speakers in either CW or Phone sounds. Perhaps a 7 to 10 second delay for all the processing to take place. This FT8 program has the ability to extract the digital signals from the noise and process them up to 10-15 dB below the noise level. So why can't the human voice be processed in a similar manner? 73 John k9uwa "TopBand since 1971" We've Come A Long Way, Baby > Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 > and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and > what do you think the future holds? > > Vy 73 > > Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF Antique Radio Restorations k9...@arrl.net Visit our Web Site at: http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com 4836 Ranch Road Leo, IN 46765 USA 1-260-637-6426 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Hi Steve Sorry we never got on 160 , but many problems setting up the station We are hopeful to get on tomorrow and Tuesday, hoping enough station won't be packed away! Vk4ma just asked about a sked too. 73 dave Sent from Samsung tablet Original message From: Steve Ireland Date: 25/10/2017 09:25 (GMT+00:00) To: Topband reflector Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) G’day As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise. While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central. On some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope. Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes down to it, I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it. My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost. I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic! So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve always enjoyed it. Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and what do you think the future holds? Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
A similar situation regarding digital modes took place on 50 MHz this summer. In the case of 6 meters, JT65 and FT8 are now the predominant modes for DX work on 6 meters. During terrestrial sporadic-E openings, there are very few DX stations now operating CW or SSB on 6. Meteor scatter is the realm of MSK144. If you want to work DX on 6 meters now - digital is where it is at. - Jon N0JK One can think of FT8 as a Pinball machine or a video game. You click "here" at the right time and maybe the ball falls just right and the other station comes back to you. If not, you click again. Preserve the CW/SSB mode awards. Jim - KR9U _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Hi Steve You've certainly stirred up some QRM here! I can visualize you right now, tinny in one hand and turning the barbie with the other, saying to yourself: "Was it something I said?" :-) -- 73 Ian, G3NRW g3...@g3nrw.net * Editor: TS-590 Family Resources Page: http://g3nrw.net/TS-590 On 25/10/2017 09:25, Steve Ireland wrote: G’day As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. [big snip] _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
>From time to time, tickling the RBN nodes on 160 proves that the band is open, sometimes nicely so. The almost constant FT8 signals nail it. People get on the band when they think there will be someone to talk to, this includes trying to get some elusive DX. In the end FT8 will prove that the band is there. The extent to which the band is actually open, by the constant FT8, will start to change people's thought about when the bands are normally open, both time of day and seasons. The number of CW contest logs submitted to contest sponsors is going up. This is decades after No Code. And it certainly seems like some ops are learning their CW skills after they have been a ham for a while. People have been saying that CW seemingly forever. I still love CW but truthfully I can't argue that it isn't obsolete. *** The question that doesn't get asked is whether CW is still FUN.*** If it's still fun, it ain't going away, including such as the thrill of digging a rare one on CW out of the noise with your own brain and ears. Anyone who was around when we lost 11 meters, knows that lack of activity loses frequencies. Bring it on. Bring it all on. We'll figure it out just fine. There are some really smart people in the ham ranks. We'll do OK 73, Guy K2AV On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:49 PM, Michael Walker wrote: > > Explain why on some nights there are many FT8 signals, and no CW signals. > No one calling CQ and everyone just listening. > > If you build it they will come. > > Mike va3mw > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Read the full content of my message, specifically the portion where i said: “One can on any given evening call CQ in the CW sub band and get picked up by skimmers around the world, yet not get a reply” 73 On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 9:49 PM Michael Walker wrote: > > Explain why on some nights there are many FT8 signals, and no CW signals. > No one calling CQ and everyone just listening. > > If you build it they will come. > > Mike va3mw > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Explain why on some nights there are many FT8 signals, and no CW signals. No one calling CQ and everyone just listening. If you build it they will come. Mike va3mw _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Steve, as a relatively “young” ham living in a populous area, I have some things to offer to this thread... To give you some background: I’m 36, been licensed since 1994. Did the whole progression before code was eliminated all the way to Extra. Took electronics classes in high school and when the instructor found out I was a ham, instantly gave me more detailed and demanding assignments. That’s all fun, I love CW as well but now, as a technologist, I love the fusion of technology and radio. It makes it interesting. I was at first skeptical of FT-8 on the HF bands after using it for 6M weak signal stuff. That (in my mind) was the band for this type of stuff. I can accept my line of thinking was wrong. One can on any given evening call CQ in the CW sub band and get picked up by skimmers around the world, yet not get a reply. This was even before FT-8 came on the scene. I can call CQ on SSB and get someone who wants to talk about politics, health problems, or some other inane subject that definitely will be boring (if you want to talk about trading on a investment bank desk, statistics, structuring MBS products or the challenge of refactoring a large system then i’d love to chat). To each their own. I’m not judging. With all of the hubaloo expressed in the past day or so I got on FT-8 and have had contacts. It’s not the “end of radio” but rather another natural progression of the hobby. I even have my co-workers now interested (all 20-somethings) in ham radio in the office just because during the day today I dedicated one of my monitors to my station at home running FT8 on 15 & 20. They were curious and I got the questions of “isn’t ham radio just full of grumpy old people hanging on to irrelevant technology and ideas?” I replied: “no, this is a practical example of what ham radio was originally conceived to accomplish... experimentation and the advancement of technology”. Ham Radio should not be “my way or the highway”. 73 WT2P On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:25 AM Steve Ireland wrote: > G’day > > As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white > jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so > intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the > Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. > > For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all > the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of > Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east > England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. > > With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology > over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX > stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in > particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). > > It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by > being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan > boy!). > > During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in > digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. > > As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals > through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable > technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast > majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had > nothing to do with the audible. > > The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket > (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the > modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy > digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at > dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying > amounts of noise. > > While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing > signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure > that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer > or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly > on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. > > Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have > quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can > have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m > DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. > > Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is > a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I > can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central. On > some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. > > There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW > (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the > heap of FT-8 activi
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
I'm with you, Steve. BRAVO! 73 George W8UVZ On Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:31 AM, Hans Hjelmström wrote: Hi Steve I FULLY agree on all you write. Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more or less lost. According to me,,,this is NOT Ham radio,, it is digi to digi without any personal feeling. And even more ,it destroy completely the challenge of Ham radio….. Next is to let your computer make these so called QSO:s during the day when you work, and during night ,when you are at sleep.You only check once per day,,what contacts he made, and the computer log for you.And send info to LOTW.Not any cards to look at any more. Just check your standings once per month at computer. At this point all social-connection is gone ,and you can just sit back and rest,,, It was the same this season on 50 mc. After 5th of July ,there was almost NO stations on either CW or SSB. People that I know of, having no interest in the challenge of magic band, worked ??? countries that they never could dream of before. I feel that ARRL should make a new dxcc for only Digi-modes that gives report less as - 1 db. Like in past ,when they used to need a report of minimum 33 or 339. As computer make the ,,,so called qso, and also write the report ,that should be easy to do.And this modes should NOT be counted for the other dxcc-awards. Doing this ,a lot of people ,can work a new dxcc ,if they like ,on these digi modes, and not destroy the old awards. I sent an e-mail concerning this to ARRL about one month ago, to one of the top-guys at dxcc-award. His lazy answer was more or less::: Use ,take it or leave it. Its new times. He / they were NOT interested to think it over, not even do they care. His answer was really not for a hobby. It was just too much for him to think of. WORSE of all is : that it takes away challenge to increase antennas,station and your operating skills. In all other hobbies,,, this is most important, to give some advantage to these that do something extra VERY SORRY, BUT if 50 mc and also 1.8 mc is going to be the same this and coming 2018 season, I stop my ham-radio and will do something else. I give it to end of 2018 ,to see if any changements will come. I think the best to solve this shit,,, is to make a separate dxcc award for it, and not mix with the others. Sorry for long e-mail, BUT I can tell you, for sure,,,many many Hams around our globe,feels similar as you and me. Kind regards Hans SM6CVX > 25 okt 2017 kl. 10:25 skrev Steve Ireland : > > G’day > > As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white > jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so > intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the > Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. > > For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the > sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran > that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, > I am one sick puppy. > > With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over > the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX > stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in > particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). > > It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being > able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). > > During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in > digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. > > As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals > through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable > technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast > majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had > nothing to do with the audible. > > The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket > (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes > of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital > modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing > with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of > noise. > > While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing > signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure > that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or > DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my > first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. > > Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have > quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have > QSOs alm
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
Hi Top Band lovers The emotion should be aside , lets dig into the technology and ask why things are that way nowadays. Computer is not only part of the radio but the radio itself is a computer today. The reason FT8, or JT9 and others digital modes dig signals we can't hear can be understood in 3 different levels. 1- The signal do noise ratio, as the name explain itself, is the ratio between power noise for a nominal bandwidth and the signal level. There are two ways to increase the signal to noise ratio . First and most common is to reduce bandwidth, and that's why CW is a better weak signal mode than SSB, CW can be used down to 100 Hz and SSB 2 KHz. Let's check some number's, assuming the Noise figure is 5 db the MDS for different bandwidth are. BW = 1 Hz > MDS = -169 dBm BW = 2 Hz > MDS = - 165 dBm BW =10 Hz > MDS = - 159 dBm BW = 100 Hz > MDS = - 149 dBm BW = 500 Hz > MDS = - 142 dBm BW = 2000 Hz> MDS = - 135 dBm To copy a signal at noise level or near the MDS the BW has a huge impact. Narrowing the BW from 500 Hz to 2 Hz the increase in signal to noise ratio, it would be -142 to -165, it means 23 db improvement. The JT modes uses the DSP digital data and calculations to get a practical BW less than 2 Hz!. In order to accomplished that the clock on both PC must be in sync by few milliseconds. That is not new at all, in the 70's we learned the coherent CW can provide few hertz of BW but it was very difficult to synchronize the clock between both transceivers that time without internet. When you compare 2 KHz to 2 Hz BW the improvement is 30 db!. The JT modes are designed to narrow bandwidth. Joe could use a "JTCW" mode and decode CW and play it back on the speaker and let our brain to decode it. Instead JT modes uses Salomon and other modern algorithms that decode better than the human brain using multiple tones. 2- The call sigh decode guessing against a list is not much different from a DX Cluster spot. 3 - JT modes is a weak signal but not a solution for manmade noise, The second way to improve signal to noise ratio and can be used with the first one is to narrow the beam width of the receiver antenna. Increasing RDF the signal to noise ration also increase a 1:2 ratio, based on my 10 years or more measuring signal to noise ration con different RDF. Comparing signals using two instance of WSJT n the same computer, one on each receiver of my IC7800, one signal decode from my TX antenna was -19 dBm, the same signal decode on my HWF was +1 dBm. The RDF and rejection from manmade noise can increase another 20 db on the JT modes using a TX vertical. If a JT node can copy -20 db using a vertical, the same JT mode can copy -40 db using a high RDF receiver antenna. The new technology can evolve to synchronize new SDR transceivers using an internet connection resulting a 2 Hz BW for a CW signal! This can become reality, think about that! What concerns me is the fact that the technical level of the new ham is declining too fast. There is the feeling that "GOOGLE" can explain everything and we don't need to know things any more, just ask ALESIA,,, The people going to FT8 are enjoying the contacts but does not understand why? And if they don’t mind why should us care about it? Ham radio is beautiful, enjoy all you can the way you can! The best antenna is the one you have and not the big gun that you don’t have, and can’t use. 73's JC N4IS _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
On 10/25/2017 12:38 PM, Charlie Young wrote: ...The first big thrill was hearing my own CW echo several days in a row, before getting my 8877 amp finished and firing up JT65A. One of the biggest thrills in my ham radio life was hearing my 144 MHz moon echos using a station, that except for the coax, was entirely homebuilt. Another was W5LFL saying, from shuttle Columbia, "N7WS, you're the loudest station we've heard in the spacecraft" Four long Yagis on an az-el mount and an 8877 will do that for you, especially with FM capture effect:-) Wes N7WS _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
I think the game changing aspect of FT8 is that many folks who would normally be available to work on CW or SSB will now be on FT8. The amount of activity on the FT8 frequency of any band is phenomenal. This summer I constructed a 4 x 7 LFA stack on 6 meters, primarily because the largest remaining opportunity for Challenge points as I close in on 3000 is on 6 meters, along with 160 and 80. I thought, might as well add elevation and go for 6 EME. Except for RTTY, I was inactive on digital modes, so downloaded WSJTX and started working JT65A on EME. On a whim, I fired up on FT8. There will be FT8 activity, and usually lots of it, on just about any HF band and usually it will be there when there is little or no other activity. It is a bottomless pit of stations to work. The active callsigns seen there are well known DXer’s from CW and SSB, along with a whole bunch of newer callsigns that are unrecognized. Although I was QRT on 6 for most of the summer due to the construction, the spots were closely watched. It seemed to me that early in the season, there was an explosion of JT65A activity. After the release of FT8, it seemed everyone switched to that. There were hardly any spots on CW. It is very easy to make QSO’s with FT8, almost no effort. The sensitivity of the mode for weak signal work is attracting a large following, along with the faster speed of making a QSO compared to JT65. I have been on FT8 on a casual basis for about 2 weeks, and likely have 500 QSO’s logged, including some new digital counters and a couple of Challenge band fills. I have not listened to FT8 on Topband. Anything that sparks this level of interest can only be good for the long term future of ham radio. Personally, I will be completely disappointed if we can’t find DX to work on CW, since that is my favorite activity in ham radio, especially 160. It remains to be seen if FT8 will take over on 160 like it seems to have done on some other bands. Hopefully, there will be something for all of us to enjoy on our favorite band. Regarding 6 EME, being completely new, I was surprised to be able to detect by ear many of the signals, and to be able to see traces on just about anyone we can decode. The first big thrill was hearing my own CW echo several days in a row, before getting my 8877 amp finished and firing up JT65A. Being 70 years old now, I decided to pursue Challenge points where they can be found, regardless of mode. No time to waste looking backward, if there is any hope to get 3000 while I am still above the grass. 73 Charlie N8RR rr c _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
No FT8 for me in topband or 6m, in fact in all bands, Hi! Exception made for the 60m band (5 MHz), but if the station shows up in CW I would rather work it CW than in FT8. I'm an IT guy, but this is a hobby and I want radio no computer's when working DX. I do work RTTY and PSK, there's still some human intervention and the computer doesn't makes all the QSO for you. 73 Jose CT1EEB - Original Message - From: "Hans Hjelmström" To: "Steve Ireland" ; ; "sm6cmU" ; Cc: "Peter Andersson" ; ; "Kjell Nerlich" Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) Hi Steve I FULLY agree on all you write. Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more or less lost. According to me,,,this is NOT Ham radio,, it is digi to digi without any personal feeling. And even more ,it destroy completely the challenge of Ham radio….. Next is to let your computer make these so called QSO:s during the day when you work, and during night ,when you are at sleep.You only check once per day,,what contacts he made, and the computer log for you.And send info to LOTW.Not any cards to look at any more. Just check your standings once per month at computer. At this point all social-connection is gone ,and you can just sit back and rest,,, It was the same this season on 50 mc. After 5th of July ,there was almost NO stations on either CW or SSB. People that I know of, having no interest in the challenge of magic band, worked ??? countries that they never could dream of before. I feel that ARRL should make a new dxcc for only Digi-modes that gives report less as - 1 db.Like in past ,when they used to need a report of minimum 33 or 339. As computer make the ,,,so called qso, and also write the report ,that should be easy to do.And this modes should NOT be counted for the other dxcc-awards. Doing this ,a lot of people ,can work a new dxcc ,if they like ,on these digi modes, and not destroy the old awards. I sent an e-mail concerning this to ARRL about one month ago, to one of the top-guys at dxcc-award. His lazy answer was more or less::: Use ,take it or leave it. Its new times. He / they were NOT interested to think it over, not even do they care. His answer was really not for a hobby. It was just too much for him to think of. WORSE of all is : that it takes away challenge to increase antennas,station and your operating skills. In all other hobbies,,, this is most important, to give some advantage to these that do something extra VERY SORRY, BUT if 50 mc and also 1.8 mc is going to be the same this and coming 2018 season, I stop my ham-radio and will do something else. I give it to end of 2018 ,to see if any changements will come. I think the best to solve this shit,,, is to make a separate dxcc award for it, and not mix with the others. Sorry for long e-mail, BUT I can tell you, for sure,,,many many Hams around our globe,feels similar as you and me. Kind regards Hans SM6CVX 25 okt 2017 kl. 10:25 skrev Steve Ireland : G’day As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise. While some
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
On 10/25/2017 10:17 AM, Chortek, Robert L. wrote: I rarely weigh in these debates (and don’t even know what these digital modes are except in the most general terms) but I don’t see any movement whatsoever to (a) require folks to use digital modes, or (b) prevent folks from using the traditional modes they enjoy have enjoyed for years. I just don’t see a problem here. I've been working on QRP WAS on Topband for several years, and last fall was down to needing WV, SC, and VT. All QSOs were CW, and made during contests. A major reason those states are tough to work QRP is that Topband ops stay up late during contests, but go to bed when the band closes to EU. Another is that if a station includes one RX antenna, it's beaming to EU. I use WSJT modes a lot on 6M chasing grids, and last fall, started monitoring the 160M JT65 frequency. Over about five months, I logged (SWL) more than 950 different stations from every US state except VT, most VE provinces, all continents, and about 20 countries. A sked produced a QSO with a station in the WV panhandle. On an average night I copied at least 30-40 stations running JT65. Rarely did I hear more CW stations than I could count with the fingers of one hand. One night I made the only QSO with EU (an SM station) of the season, and running about 1kW; the dozen or so EU stations I logged (again SWL), are the only ones received here in more than three years! EU is not easy on Topband from NorCal. And by the way -- all that JT65 activity is packed into about 2 kHz of bandwidth! IMO, traditional topband operation IS a dying thing. How many OTs will deign to respond to a weak CQ from an op new to topband to provide encouragement? How many of us find topband noise levels growing every year? How many of us take the time to chase down and kill the sources? How many of these sources are out of our control? How many of us have space for decent 160 TX and RX antennas? I do -- three TX and four RX -- but I'm one of the lucky few. And my noise level increases every year. K1JT's WSJT modes offer a solution to the noise issue, by their ability to decode signals 10-15 dB deeper into the noise than even the best CW ops can copy. Many of us have fun on 6M making QSOs via meteor scatter using K1JT's MSK144. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
Peter has written elsewhere about this. Perhaps he is too modest to refer to it, but I am not: http://www.sm2cew.com/jt65.html Additionally, traditional RTTY is still a "hear it" mode. I actually listen to the tones and while obviously I can't decode them by ear, I can certainly tune them by ear. Furthermore, MMTTY, which I use, decodes one signal at a time, the one I tune in and respond to. So, at least in my operation, I have to be there and actively engaged. I will turn 76 tomorrow and in a few months will pass my 60th anniversary as a licensed ham. https://qrz.com/db/N7WS Some, perhaps many, will say I'm an old geezer who rejects progress. Nothing could be further from the truth. As a matter of fact, as a relatively new Topband enthusiast I had decided that, considering my modest station and abysmal 160 location, I would probably have to enter, kicking and screaming, the ranks of imaginary QSO digital modes to complete my personal goal of 160 and 9-band DXCC. So before venturing into transmitting, I "listened" to JT65 for about a week. Just before committing to transmitting, FT8 was announced. I downloaded it and began making QSOs, as they were. It didn't take long to determine that unlike RTTY where LoTW confirmations are sometimes received with hours, over half of the FT8 ops never QSL, at least anywhere where the confirmations count for something. One other depressing issue arose. Conventional wisdom was that running JTAlert was almost a requirement. I wasn't quite sure why, but it did do a better job of logging than WSJT-X, which hogs the serial port, preventing my normal logging program from being useful. I use a laptop on a shelf above the rig and the second monitor below. I was trying to work a west African station and having trouble completing because he was getting covered up by a stronger station. I was split so he was "hearing" me. I noticed that a window popped up but it straddled the two screens and I didn't figure it out before it was gone. I ran another sequence or so until a second window popped up. This time I managed to more-or-less figure it out. Apparently, he was sending a text message that he was sending me RRR and I needed to be sending him 73! Who needs a radio? I turned off the radio and uninstalled WSJT-X. If I change my mind and reinstall it in the future, I will set a personal standard, at least for awards purposes, that 1) I will be at the controls of the station. 2) I won't count any QSO that couldn't have been copied on CW. 3) I won't count any QSO that requires the software to have prior knowledge of the two station calls or could not be copied by an uninterested third party. Wes N7WS On 10/25/2017 10:50 AM, Peter Sundberg wrote: Jay, please don't compare the new digi protocols with RTTY, a character based protocol. What you see on the screen or paper in RTTY has actually been sent, and is received as it was sent. Or it is garbled because the link is not good enough. With some of the new popular digi protocols most of what is written on the screen, some call it "received", has never been received as a complete message. It is reproduced from other sources than the radio path. As a well known 6m op said after summing up his Zero to DXCC journey this last summer - "without entering already known information (calls) to the software I wouldn't have been even close to where I am now.." BIG difference - no wonder the users of new digi protocols apply for a DXCC award after a week. Try that with RTTY. 73 Peter SM2CEW _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
I am pretty serious about DXing. I am not on the honor roll. I have over 300 confirmed. I couldn't tell you who is at the top. Why does it matter? Those at the top did it their way, whatever that was. Some did it all from their own homes and never moved, many started over, many today use remote stations all over their own county and probably beyond some use 100 watts, some use 1000 some use 5000 or more. I can't compete with the DX guy on the East Coast or with the guy with 200 ft towers and room for huge antennas. DXCC is nowhere close to a level playing field. The ARRL did not make it a competition. They sell awards. They could and should offer more awards and endorsements because I think people would buy them. FT8 is not a level playing field all it does is allow people that could not even get on the field to do so. My ft tower and a tribander is king over a guy with his hidden wire in the attic on FT8 just like it is on CW or SSB or RTTY. To work rare dx on FT8 requires them to get on FT8. S79 popped up on 17m just as I left he was -20db down. I didn't get him. I believe 3Y0X is going to try FT8, that should be a zoo! I can't wait for a bunch of people who have never tried the mode to learn that day! It will be gloriously poor. W0MU On 10/25/2017 12:17 PM, Mark K3MSB wrote: As I’ve said before, I don’t believe it’s a case of FT8 being “good” or “bad” for ham radio. The problem is a level playing field for competition purposes. Personally, I don’t believe statements such as “Your DXCC is your own” or “Your DXCC is what you make of it” etc. Rubbish.All serious DXers are always looking to see where there are in the pecking order of accomplishments. If you’re a serious DXer and don’t care where you stand among your peers, then while you may be out there, I figure you’re few and far between. The ARRL could easily & significantly mitigate this by allowing band specific DXCC awards with mode endorsements; stated alternately, 160M DXCC-CW, 160M DXCC-FT8, 40M-Digital, 17M-SSB etc. I’ve been a software engineer for 35 years. While I appreciate the complexity aspects of such a change to the DXCC award program, I believe the only real factor standing in the way of making such a change is the ARRL’s desire to do so.It’s not rocket science.Make your voices known. For those that claim that mode is not important, then ask the ARRL and CQ to get rid of mode specific contests. We’ll just have a single CQ WW where you can use SSB, RTTY, Digital etc, one ARRL DX Competition where any mode goes.See how far the contest community will let that one go. 73 Mark K3MSB _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Dave AA6YQ wrote: > > >>>It's been technically possible to do that with RTTY or PSK for decades. > No one is interested in running a QSO machine. > Shoot, Tree did it with CW DECADES ago. Contest Exuberantly, Hank, W6SX _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
>>>AA6YQ comments below -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Peter Sundberg Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 1:50 PM To: jayb1...@optonline.net; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? Jay, please don't compare the new digi protocols with RTTY, a character based protocol. What you see on the screen or paper in RTTY has actually been sent, and is received as it was sent. Or it is garbled because the link is not good enough. With some of the new popular digi protocols most of what is written on the screen, some call it "received", has never been received as a complete message. It is reproduced from other sources than the radio path. >>>If you are referring to callbook lookups as the "other sources", ops have >>>been logging information from callbooks since the beginning of amateur radio: <http://w0is.com/oldcallsigns/oldcalls.html> >>>What's the difference between you thumbing through a hardcopy callbook to >>>find an operator's QTH, or having a computer look it up for you in an online database? As a well known 6m op said after summing up his Zero to DXCC journey this last summer - "without entering already known information (calls) to the software I wouldn't have been even close to where I am now.." >>>Yes, it takes much longer to lookup QSL routes in a hardcopy callbook and >>>write them by hand on an envelope than it does to use a logging application that does all that automatically. The benefit of this automation is that ops can spend more time on the radio rather than doing paperwork. >>>Yes, new technologies have made it "easier" to work DX. CW is more effective >>>than spark, and FT8 is more effective than RTTY. A analog-to-digital converter connected to an antenna and driving a digital signal processor is more effective than a superhet. The RX 4-square I use on 160m could not have been implemented without semiconductors, and probably not without integrated circuits. Internet-based DX clusters are easier than one-ringers or 2m repeaters. But all DXers have access to these improvements, so the playing field remains level. >>>One of the justifications for assigning precious spectrum to the amateur >>>radio service is to drive technical advancement. What Joe K1JT et al have accomplished with FT8 is exactly what we as a community of amateur operators are expected to be doing. No one is forcing you to use new technologies; there's no excuse for whining. >>>And yes, I'll stay off you damn lawn. 73, Dave, AA6YQ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
You guys should have been around for the AM versus SSB discussions/wars without the use of the instant communication internet. Oh my, Lee K7TJR _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
As I’ve said before, I don’t believe it’s a case of FT8 being “good” or “bad” for ham radio. The problem is a level playing field for competition purposes. Personally, I don’t believe statements such as “Your DXCC is your own” or “Your DXCC is what you make of it” etc. Rubbish.All serious DXers are always looking to see where there are in the pecking order of accomplishments. If you’re a serious DXer and don’t care where you stand among your peers, then while you may be out there, I figure you’re few and far between. The ARRL could easily & significantly mitigate this by allowing band specific DXCC awards with mode endorsements; stated alternately, 160M DXCC-CW, 160M DXCC-FT8, 40M-Digital, 17M-SSB etc. I’ve been a software engineer for 35 years. While I appreciate the complexity aspects of such a change to the DXCC award program, I believe the only real factor standing in the way of making such a change is the ARRL’s desire to do so.It’s not rocket science.Make your voices known. For those that claim that mode is not important, then ask the ARRL and CQ to get rid of mode specific contests. We’ll just have a single CQ WW where you can use SSB, RTTY, Digital etc, one ARRL DX Competition where any mode goes.See how far the contest community will let that one go. 73 Mark K3MSB _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
> With some of the new popular digi protocols most of what is written on the > screen, some call it "received", has never been received as a complete > message. It is reproduced from other sources than the radio path. > "without entering already known information (calls) to the software I > wouldn't have been even close to where I am now.." Both are true when you use a DXCLUSTER. Any spotting network will give you the whole call already. No need to decode it yourself, received over the internet, a non radio path. Even better, it’s spotted by a RBN Bot without human intervention. I don’t think we need to go down that rabbit whole. I am with Bob, AA6VB - we are not forced to use the new modes. On the other hand, these new modes enable a whole new layer of operators. A new target rich environment for more opportunities to work new DX. The RF still has to go from A to B to be decoded. 73, Andreas, N6NU > On Oct 25, 2017, at 10:50 AM, Peter Sundberg wrote: > > Jay, please don't compare the new digi protocols with RTTY, a character based > protocol. > > What you see on the screen or paper in RTTY has actually been sent, and is > received as it was sent. Or it is garbled because the link is not good enough. > > With some of the new popular digi protocols most of what is written on the > screen, some call it "received", has never been received as a complete > message. It is reproduced from other sources than the radio path. > > As a well known 6m op said after summing up his Zero to DXCC journey this > last summer - "without entering already known information (calls) to the > software I wouldn't have been even close to where I am now.." > > BIG difference - no wonder the users of new digi protocols apply for a DXCC > award after a week. Try that with RTTY. > > 73 > Peter SM2CEW > > > At 13:38 2017-10-25, jayb1...@optonline.net wrote: >> I guess I donât understand what makes the new Digital modes any different >> from old RTTY...the âsoundsâ are similar enuf to learn to love and the >> words are still displayed on (in the old days) paper or a screen. There are >> many audibly-compromised hams out there such as me ââ who really welcome >> a mode that doesnât require sharp hearing to work CW or especially SSB. In >> addition, I have recruited several new (young) hams by attracting them with >> the computer-based modes...all but eliminates âmike-frightâ and >> âkey-freezingâ. I guess a lot of old-timers (I am 75) feel that the >> awards like DXCC and WAS, etc. earned with FT8 have less merit than they did >> with good-old CW or Phone or RTTY. But few people objected when CW filters >> were invented or SSB replaced AM or smaller, lighter, more efficient radios >> replaced the old tube stuff...so is a CW DXCC earned in 1948 somehow worth >> more than one earned in 2000 using these major tech improvements ? There >> will always be a place for CW and voice modes in ham radio for those that >> want to practice those..and remember one of the major facets of ham radio is >> to âadvance the state of the radio artâ which surely describes the new >> digital modes. Room for everybody out there, guys73 Jay NY2NY >> _ Topband Reflector Archives - >> http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
Jay, please don't compare the new digi protocols with RTTY, a character based protocol. What you see on the screen or paper in RTTY has actually been sent, and is received as it was sent. Or it is garbled because the link is not good enough. With some of the new popular digi protocols most of what is written on the screen, some call it "received", has never been received as a complete message. It is reproduced from other sources than the radio path. As a well known 6m op said after summing up his Zero to DXCC journey this last summer - "without entering already known information (calls) to the software I wouldn't have been even close to where I am now.." BIG difference - no wonder the users of new digi protocols apply for a DXCC award after a week. Try that with RTTY. 73 Peter SM2CEW At 13:38 2017-10-25, jayb1...@optonline.net wrote: I guess I donât understand what makes the new Digital modes any different from old RTTY...the âsoundsâ are similar enuf to learn to love and the words are still displayed on (in the old days) paper or a screen. There are many audibly-compromised hams out there such as me ââ who really welcome a mode that doesnât require sharp hearing to work CW or especially SSB. In addition, I have recruited several new (young) hams by attracting them with the computer-based modes...all but eliminates âmike-frightâ and âkey-freezingâ. I guess a lot of old-timers (I am 75) feel that the awards like DXCC and WAS, etc. earned with FT8 have less merit than they did with good-old CW or Phone or RTTY. But few people objected when CW filters were invented or SSB replaced AM or smaller, lighter, more efficient radios replaced the old tube stuff...so is a CW DXCC earned in 1948 somehow worth more than one earned in 2000 using these major tech improvements ? There will always be a place for CW and voice modes in ham radio for those that want to practice those..and remember one of the major facets of ham radio is to âadvance the state of the radio artâ which surely describes the new digital modes. Room for everybody out there, guys73 Jay NY2NY _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Spark had other uses, Add ozone to the air, reduce the insect bug population, warm up the shack in cold WX, Arc kept you awake, could light your cigar when needed. So outside of minimizing your personal connection with others , what else does digital do ? ( ; > ) 73 Bruce-k1fz On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:34:30 -0500, Mike Waters wrote: Oooh! Vey well said, Dave!! Short and perfect. :-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Oct 25, 2017 10:14 AM, "Dave AA6YQ" wrote: "Technologies available before you reached the age of 35 are standard; every op should use them. Technologies that arrived after you reached the age of 35 will kill the hobby." We've heard this with every new technology, going back to the advent of CW in the days of spark. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
I rarely weigh in these debates (and don’t even know what these digital modes are except in the most general terms) but I don’t see any movement whatsoever to (a) require folks to use digital modes, or (b) prevent folks from using the traditional modes they enjoy have enjoyed for years. I just don’t see a problem here. 73, Bob/AA6VB Sent from my iPhone _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
>>>AA6YQ comments below -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of garyk9gs Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 11:22 AM To: 'Topband reflector' Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) I was riding to a DX club meeting on Monday night with a friend who recently started playing around with FT8. He said he's worked 60+ countries in a week or so using 100w. Not on 160m. He said that many of the QSOs were 10 or more db below the noise and many he could not hear at all. All it would take is a few lines of additional code (the QSO itself is already automated) to log and find the next contact and one could go to work in the morning and come home to find out what you've worked. The software even highlights the "new ones". >>>It's been technically possible to do that with RTTY or PSK for decades. No >>>one is interested in running a QSO machine. 73, Dave, AA6YQ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Steve, That was a good read. I see there's a lot of replies so I'll send this before reeading them... I too love CW and it is without a doubt my favorite mode. You asked a question and I have used FT8 and my favorite band is Topband, so here's my 2 pence. I think what might have turned Ham Radio upside down was the institution of DXCC (I have 329 confirmed, so I participate). With that, a pressure began to get the current QSO over with and the next one started. A new subset of the above is the Challenge award concept, where one Q was enough for DXCC, now the game includes working the rare ones on every band and mode. That accelerated the rush to get heard and the Q over with. The pileups are horrendous even for big guns. I think the next "Upside down" event was the advent of the computer which took the personality out of logging and made your contacts a viewable & printable tally. The Apple II+ I had in 81 had a CW/RTTY card. I could now send and receive faster than I could copy. A subset of this above is the dehumanizing of the QSO, with my logging program it connects to QRZ or Buckmaster and tells you the person's name and QTH. Most everyone sends 599 when working DX, so you don't have to enter it, it's already listed by default. Last night I worked a TI on SSB, rare for me to be on SSB so after he took the time to have my call correct and give me a 5X9 report, I gave my name, his 5X5 report and my QTH I turned it back to him and he said 73, QRZ? and that was the QSO. I felt disappointed but it is what it has become. The digital modes are nothing other than a logical extension of the computer and experimenting; totally inevitable these would be. Other than CW & SSB, I have only used RTTY and FT8 (maybe 5 JT contacts are in there..) but here's my Luddite take on FT8: Last night I did something I have started to do, I let FT8 read all night on 160. Why? it gives me a good idea of propagation that I can read in the morning, was there DX, where were the signals from and when were they there? For last night from CT, only Canada & USA. Other nights I've seen some good DX that was present. How many times have I wondered if there might be signals on what seems to be a dead band? Sure, low band DX signals are not heard during the day, but are there any surviving in the most minuscule amounts? Logic says almost assuredly not, but almost is not 100%. With some of these modes, especially WSPR, signals below the noise level can be pulled out. That's pretty cool and goes against everything I believed in this regard. Better Receivers can lower the noise floor of course but to copy a signal below that new & lower noise floor, the mystery still remains. Now you can. How much below? that remains to be seen by future experimenting. As to what the future really holds may well depend on how much Amateur allocations are being used and while for most of us, it's a way of life and a deeply personal hobby, that's no reason for Governments worldwide of offer us licenses and permission, these spaces have to be earned to be kept. I think it's wonderful to see so much activity in 2 KHz of space that otherwise would be dead air. I love CW, it is a challenge and a skill I'm good at, FT8 is not a skill, other than getting it to work and play nice with other software running at the same time (it needs to be willing to use virtual ports and WSJT-X software is not helpful to this in the least). The last I'll offer is how it allows people with marginal systems to be able to get on the air and have a reasonable chance of making contacts that would otherwise be impossible. I had the pleasure of communicating with Carl Smith N4AA (SK) who used to put out QRZ-DX. He was in a bad way in Hospice care and this is a snip of the last email I received from him and it speaks to FT8, I don't think he would mind my posting that, here: --Start- I'm sitting here in this VA Hospice room now hoping I can get back on the air somehow, sometime soon. I have talked to the folks here and they have agreed to let me get a wire out the window for an antenna. I am on the ground floor on the southeast side of the building so it should not be too bad with some kind of a portable antenna. If I can get that done, and I AM working on it, I'll have my son bring my TS-590S digital radio up here and see if I can at least try to get on using FT-8. I have fallen in love with that mode... hi hi Will make my life a lot easier while I'm here and allow some measure of being on the air. ---Finish--- It is what it is and it's not the end of the world of Ham Radio as we knew it, that started long ago. 73, Gary KA1J > G´day > > As a committed (yeah, that´s probably the right word - complete with > white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I´ve > never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as th
Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
SPARK FOREVER!! - Greg Chartrand - W7MY Richland, WA. W7MY Home Page: http://webpages.charter.net/w7my/ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
I represent the under 30 crowd (for another few years at least) who isn't really into JT65, FT8, etc.. I still prefer the "between the ears" -modes. However, I see the JT and other weak signal modes emerging as a response to real estate limits and restrictions. I was lucky in that I had space and tolerant parents growing up, so I could do these things as a kid. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't be involved in ham radio right now. If using a digital mode keeps someone involved in ham radio or generates new interest, then I'm all for it. My DXCC hangs in my own shack; it means nothing to anyone but me -- and the same is true of all of yours. If these modes "aren't ham radio" to you, don't use them. But understand that they're bringing a lot of new activity to the bands, and especially the low bands; let them have their hobby without squawking about *your* hobby. Anyway, there should be plenty of "between the ears" action this weekend. I believe there's some type of operating event going on. *smirk* Mike, N1TA On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Nick Maslon - K1NZ wrote: > > Hi all, here's my $.02... > > Radio is what you make of it. Do what you enjoy. If you don't like the > digimodes, stay away from them. > > DXCC means different things to different people. To some, it means only SSB > or CW. To others, they're perfectly happy with digi modes. Others want to > earn DXCC from a station only they have built. Still others work under > their own call from a multiop station and claim the credit. To each his > own. It's not worth getting worked up over. > > I'm going to get put on blast for this but personally, I love digimodes. > Outside of contests, I almost exclusively operate digi. It's what I enjoy. > I'm not proficient enough with CW to have a real impact on the bands and > phone takes its toll on you after a while. > > That being said, I lament FT8 killing off JT65. I do understand they're > both similar, but JT65 had a more "human" touch in that I did need to click > the right buttons to send the right text instead of the computer > automatically doing it for me. Plus, the longer cycle times were more > conducive to getting in a freeform 73 note. > > At the end of the day, this hobby is big enough for everyone. Have fun. > Enjoy yourself. Make new friends. The magic isn't gone just yet! > > 73, > Nick K1NZ > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
One can think of FT8 as a Pinball machine or a video game. You click "here" at the right time and maybe the ball falls just right and the other station comes back to you. If not, you click again. Preserve the CW/SSB mode awards. Jim - KR9U _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Oooh! Vey well said, Dave!! Short and perfect. :-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Oct 25, 2017 10:14 AM, "Dave AA6YQ" wrote: "Technologies available before you reached the age of 35 are standard; every op should use them. Technologies that arrived after you reached the age of 35 will kill the hobby." We've heard this with every new technology, going back to the advent of CW in the days of spark. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
I was riding to a DX club meeting on Monday night with a friend who recently started playing around with FT8. He said he's worked 60+ countries in a week or so using 100w. Not on 160m. He said that many of the QSOs were 10 or more db below the noise and many he could not hear at all. All it would take is a few lines of additional code (the QSO itself is already automated) to log and find the next contact and one could go to work in the morning and come home to find out what you've worked. The software even highlights the "new ones". He described making a QSO as much fun as watching paint dry. Not for me. This is kind of like the driverless cars that everyone is saying will revolutionise transportation. I just don't get the attraction. Both technologies sound boring. I'll go read a good book instead. Yeah, maybe I'm old fashioned but I'm only 55. 73-Gary K9GS Original message From: "Wes Attaway (N5WA)" Date: 10/25/17 8:11 AM (GMT-06:00) To: 'Steve Ireland' , 'Topband reflector' Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) I agree with all the comments re digital modes such as FT8. I was discussing this recently with a local ham and I told him that I thought ARRL could create a new "DXCC While Being Asleep" award. With FT8 all you have to do is to click your mouse once in a while. The rest of the time you could just be dozing while the computer is making a few QSOs. You really don't have to be awake while the QSOs (if you want to call them that) are being made. --- Wes Attaway (N5WA) (318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA Computer/Cellphone Forensics AttawayForensics.com --- -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Steve Ireland Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:25 AM To: Topband reflector Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) G'day As a committed (yeah, that's probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I've never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn't have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you 'saw' signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren't, were not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise. While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz - FT-8 central. On some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. There are countries I've dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope. Frustration sets in and
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
"Technologies available before you reached the age of 35 are standard; every op should use them. Technologies that arrived after you reached the age of 35 will kill the hobby." We've heard this with every new technology, going back to the advent of CW in the days of spark. 73, Dave, AA6YQ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Gentlemen, Why choose to let what others are doing upset us, especially when there is not a thing we can do about it? Let's just enjoy our 160m DX and contests instead. :-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
I think that digital modes such as FT8 are a boon to hams in homes with covenants, allowing them to work the world with minimal, even indoor, antennas and QRP power levels. For them, at least, the challenge is still there. I think FT8 is so popular because there is more reward (contacts) for a given station setup compared to older modes. No one is being forced to use FT8, which currently only occupies a tiny 1% of the 160m band (~2kHz). Also, no internet spotting assistance is needed to see who is active (and copy-able) on the band. I can listen to the music of FT8 by simply turning up the volume control on my K3S. On 10/25/2017 9:38 AM, jayb1...@optonline.net wrote: I guess I don’t understand what makes the new Digital modes any different from old RTTY...the “sounds” are similar enuf to learn to love and the words are still displayed on (in the old days) paper or a screen. There are many audibly-compromised hams out there – such as me – who really welcome a mode that doesn’t require sharp hearing to work CW or especially SSB. In addition, I have recruited several new (young) hams by attracting them with the computer-based modes...all but eliminates “mike-fright” and “key-freezing”. I guess a lot of old-timers (I am 75) feel that the awards like DXCC and WAS, etc. earned with FT8 have less merit than they did with good-old CW or Phone or RTTY. But few people objected when CW filters were invented or SSB replaced AM or smaller, lighter, more efficient radios replaced the old tube stuff...so is a CW DXCC earned in 1948 somehow worth more than one earned in 2000 using these major tech improvements ? There will always be a place for CW and voice modes in ham radio for those that want to practice those..and remember one of the major facets of ham radio is to “advance the state of the radio art” which surely describes the new digital modes. Room for everybody out there, guys73 Jay NY2NY _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
I hope everyone in the US (except for me) switches to FT-8 on 160 meters which will give me a much better chance to work the dx-peditions and other rare ones on 160 meters CW:-) I downloaded the software to check out what FT-8 was all about, and after 30 minutes I had seen enough and decided it was boring (cool from a technological standpoint, but otherwise boring and certainly not challenging). We need to keep our bands active, and FT-8 is another mode to help with that objective. CW is certainly not dead, but we must figure out how to get the youth of tomorrow interested in CW and I have witnessed a decline in available CW operators at events such as Field Day, etc. 73, Don (wd8dsb) On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 4:25 AM, Steve Ireland wrote: > G’day > > As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white > jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so > intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the > Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. > > For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all > the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of > Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east > England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. > > With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology > over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX > stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in > particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). > > It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by > being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan > boy!). > > During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in > digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. > > As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals > through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable > technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast > majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had > nothing to do with the audible. > > The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket > (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the > modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy > digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at > dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying > amounts of noise. > > While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing > signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure > that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer > or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly > on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. > > Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have > quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can > have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m > DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. > > Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is > a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I > can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central. On > some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. > > There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW > (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the > heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope. > > Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it > comes down to it, I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it. > > My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be > no sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of > their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is > actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been > lost. > > I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can > still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the > noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real > excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic! > > So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have > become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as > I’ve always enjoyed it. > > Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with > FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside > down and what do you think the future holds? > > Vy 73 > > Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (mine is long, too)
I'm not a topbander except in spirit; haven't yet flown an antenna for anything above 80 meters but this discussion is resonant, if you will, across all bands. I got into ham radio a couple years ago, about 50 years after I was exposed to it. Life got in the way in the meantime and at this point it was now or never.And I've never been happier. Art KB3FJO brought up a good point about auditory/visual or kinesthetic experience; I want to tender that most of the hams today also grew up with a computer as a major component of their experience, whereas older hams may not have.So it's pretty much a given that they're going to integrate a tool they know with a medium (radio communication) that's new to them. Does that make what we do with CW or phone any less relevant? I don't think so. It makes the digimode warriors more vocal when their ox is gored, but otherwise what they do is ham radio as much as your garden variety brass pounder. I have my share of SSB contacts; I'm learning Morse code so I can be fluent in the CW mode; and I have to say I have also my share of digital QSOs (JT9/JT65, PSK, Olivia, and even a Throb QSO in the log.) But not one FT8; not because I can't, but because I choose not to (I'm not chasing paper, I'm having fun, and rag chewing, and enjoying the hell out of this hobby.) And FT8 doesn't fit into that model for me. For those contemplating leaving the hobby, I'd counsel patience. This thing is bigger than all of us. I want to draw a parallel with what I do for my day job; and I ask pardon for the digression but it might underscore what I'm talking about. I am the development manager for a large snack food company taking care of their EDI interfaces. For those who don't know, EDI is Electronic Data Interchange. Our customers are Wal-Mart, Target, McLane, etc. who can't send us paper purchase orders because they'd bankrupt themselves buying paper. They send electronic transactions, which we receive, and we send them electronic invoices, and they send us electronic deposits (kind of like Direct Deposit, which is a form of EDI.) We use a "format", a markup language if you will (really close to a digimode), called X12. It's been around at least since the 1950s and 300-baud acoustic modems. Hang on, I'm getting to the point here. :) With the advent of the Internet, some companies began a race to another kind of markup language called XML in the early 2000s. Immediately all the pundits cried out "X12 is dead, XML is the New Best Thing." They all predicted that the X12 dinosaur would die a quiet death. Thirteen years later, XML is still a niche, X12 is as strong as ever, and in an interview with a trade journal some years ago I opined, "X12 is not dead; it doesn't even have a bad cold. When you see companies like Wal-Mart and Target throw out their investment in X12 and their running systems, you can talk to me about the death of X12." The point?Ham radio lives. Bill Cromwell, don't leave ham radio. Ham radio in all of its wonderful incarnations will be just as strong as before, because there will be other hams who have the same great visions and ideas that the rest of us have had. Not all of them will want to pursue the allure of the digital mode; there's still a waiting list to get into the CWOps Academy; and SSB rigs are still being sold with a microphone jack instead of a Line In interface. The more hams pursue their avocation, the stronger the hobby will be, now and in the future. Now, it's time to put away the soapbox and get back to work.Apologies for the wandering. --- 72, Rich Hurd / WC3T / DMR: 3142737 PA Army MARS, Northampton County RACES, EPA-ARRL Public Information Officer for Scouting Latitude: 40.761621 Longitude: -75.288988 (40°45.68' N 75°17.33' W) Grid: *FN20is* > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Hi all, here's my $.02... Radio is what you make of it. Do what you enjoy. If you don't like the digimodes, stay away from them. DXCC means different things to different people. To some, it means only SSB or CW. To others, they're perfectly happy with digi modes. Others want to earn DXCC from a station only they have built. Still others work under their own call from a multiop station and claim the credit. To each his own. It's not worth getting worked up over. I'm going to get put on blast for this but personally, I love digimodes. Outside of contests, I almost exclusively operate digi. It's what I enjoy. I'm not proficient enough with CW to have a real impact on the bands and phone takes its toll on you after a while. That being said, I lament FT8 killing off JT65. I do understand they're both similar, but JT65 had a more "human" touch in that I did need to click the right buttons to send the right text instead of the computer automatically doing it for me. Plus, the longer cycle times were more conducive to getting in a freeform 73 note. At the end of the day, this hobby is big enough for everyone. Have fun. Enjoy yourself. Make new friends. The magic isn't gone just yet! 73, Nick K1NZ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
I have used JT65. It's just like watching paint dry, but the only reason for using it was because I was competing in the CDXC CHallenge last year. Without using JT65 I would not have won the 6m section. This year, again using not JT65 but FT8, I had to use it because so very few were using conventional modes. These are slot filler modes. You cannot really tell where the station is within the passband, even if you can hear him. However the protocol takes care of you netting, returning a report, and giving a confirmation so all you have to worry about is making the coffee. This is why my friend Roy G3ZIG has just taken down his EME array, a bay of 12 12el yagis, all tuned for max gain and very well constructed. It might be a 9 day wonder. I used it, got no real satisfaction from working a station but then the other modes are suffering in exactly the same way. Try having a proper QSO, name/QTH/WX/rig/ants, and a general chat. It is nigh impossible these days. I miss some of my SK friends, life-time friendships built from a first QSO. We visited each other, kept regular skeds and that WAS amateur radio. Having a QSO these days is a 10 second ( or less ) event, swapping 5nn 73, or just "Five nine" with no 73 on SSB. What's the flaming point? Might be good for award chasing, but when it is just a common USA station or EU station issuing garbage like that, what chance is there of having a conversation? Mostly they are meaningless reports anyway and you feel obligated to respond like for like. I have no objection to that in a DX-pedition situation, but let's try and have a conversation if possible. Please disregard the above, it's a waste of time, but I do feel better...O:-) 73 de Roger G3LDI On 25/10/2017 14:38, jayb1...@optonline.net wrote: I guess I don’t understand what makes the new Digital modes any different from old RTTY...the “sounds” are similar enuf to learn to love and the words are still displayed on (in the old days) paper or a screen. There are many audibly-compromised hams out there – such as me – who really welcome a mode that doesn’t require sharp hearing to work CW or especially SSB. In addition, I have recruited several new (young) hams by attracting them with the computer-based modes...all but eliminates “mike-fright” and “key-freezing”. I guess a lot of old-timers (I am 75) feel that the awards like DXCC and WAS, etc. earned with FT8 have less merit than they did with good-old CW or Phone or RTTY. But few people objected when CW filters were invented or SSB replaced AM or smaller, lighter, more efficient radios replaced the old tube stuff...so is a CW DXCC earned in 1948 somehow worth more than one earned in 2000 using these major tech improvements ? There will always be a place for CW and voice modes in ham radio for those that want to practice those..and remember one of the major facets of ham radio is to “advance the state of the radio art” which surely describes the new digital modes. Room for everybody out there, guys73 Jay NY2NY _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
As a younger old guy in ham radio at 53, licensed since 1978, I am enjoying the heck out of FT8. It is very different than other modes such as CW or SSB. Why the commotion? It takes up a couple of KC's on the band and nobody is forcing you to do it. It is allowing people how have smaller stations the opportunity to get on and use their radios and a computer to make contacts they never would have been able to make. This is great for ham radio! FT8 is just another form of RTTY in my eyes. A computer decodes RTTY just like other data modes. Was there this much angst when it came out? Unfortunately most old farts in ham radio don't really care if it goes on or not. The majority of t he ham radio population is old. They are in it only for themselves and most will not be around in 10 to 20 years. To survive, ham radio, is going to need things like FT8 and probably much more to continue. We pride our selves on our emergency communications. How many people were involved in the hurricanes this year. Very very very little. People should be excited that there are now so many signals on 160! Instead we have 20 plus responses the end of 160 is here. Actually it is the start of much much more. It is still hard. You still have to have enough of an antenna to get out. You still have to be able to be heard and you have to be able to hear. The east coast is still going to dominate in the DX world even on FT8 from the USA. The only technology that will make up for that advantage is a remote station on the east coast, which is a thing! I have worked one station on 160 FT8 V31MA. I have not been focusing on 160 though. Working DX on FT8 is interesting and requires different skills similar but different to RTTY. I have worked 405 stations on FT8 since October 14th which was my first contact on FT8. Every station my radio hears is uploaded to hamspots.net. That is pretty cool. With JTalerts I can send a message instantly to other JTAlert users thanking them for the contact or asking them a question. Psychologist should figure out why people especially older people have such a big issue with changes to their lives or their hobbies. Every change is bad and nothing is ever better. The dreaded computer continues to be blamed yet everyone here is using one to email, to log, to send your morse code, to watch your SDR, to forecasting the propagation but FT8 a mode that takes up 2 or 3 kc's is going to ruin ham radio? Try it you might actually like it. The only negative I have is with people running huge power when it is not necessary, which plagues us on all our bands but probably more so on 160 and the lack of being able to have a conversation with the other station. It is easy to get working. In the end hams have more people to work! This is a good thing. We can sell ham radio to people with limited access to antennas and show them they can actually make contacts around the world. It may not be for everyone, PSK was not for me, but I am making a bunch more ham radio contacts everyday instead of watching my DXCC needs list and spot collector telling me there is nobody on that I need. Like packet I don't think FT8 is going away until there is a better form of it and that will be the rage. W0MU On 10/25/2017 2:25 AM, Steve Ireland wrote: G’day As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact a
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing?
I guess I don’t understand what makes the new Digital modes any different from old RTTY...the “sounds” are similar enuf to learn to love and the words are still displayed on (in the old days) paper or a screen. There are many audibly-compromised hams out there – such as me – who really welcome a mode that doesn’t require sharp hearing to work CW or especially SSB. In addition, I have recruited several new (young) hams by attracting them with the computer-based modes...all but eliminates “mike-fright” and “key-freezing”. I guess a lot of old-timers (I am 75) feel that the awards like DXCC and WAS, etc. earned with FT8 have less merit than they did with good-old CW or Phone or RTTY. But few people objected when CW filters were invented or SSB replaced AM or smaller, lighter, more efficient radios replaced the old tube stuff...so is a CW DXCC earned in 1948 somehow worth more than one earned in 2000 using these major tech improvements ? There will always be a place for CW and voice modes in ham radio for those that want to practice those..and remember one of the major facets of ham radio is to “advance the state of the radio art” which surely describes the new digital modes. Room for everybody out there, guys73 Jay NY2NY _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
I agree with all the comments re digital modes such as FT8. I was discussing this recently with a local ham and I told him that I thought ARRL could create a new "DXCC While Being Asleep" award. With FT8 all you have to do is to click your mouse once in a while. The rest of the time you could just be dozing while the computer is making a few QSOs. You really don't have to be awake while the QSOs (if you want to call them that) are being made. --- Wes Attaway (N5WA) (318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA Computer/Cellphone Forensics AttawayForensics.com --- -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Steve Ireland Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:25 AM To: Topband reflector Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) G'day As a committed (yeah, that's probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I've never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn't have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you 'saw' signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren't, were not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise. While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz - FT-8 central. On some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. There are countries I've dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope. Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes down to it, I just can't use it. My heart isn't in it. My computer will be talking to someone else's computer and there will be no sense of either a particular person's way of sending CW or the tone of their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost. I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic! So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I've always enjoyed it. Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and what do you think the future holds? Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. htt
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
JT modes were originally designed for VHF (59 MHz and up). No reason to use them on HF and especially on Top Band. We will not pay attention to those playing the childish FT8 toys on HF. 3C0L showed us the proper way. >Среда, 25 октября 2017, 11:55 UTC от Mirosław Paczocha : > >Hi, > >FT8, JT65 and similar modes are just computer to computer "QSOs". > >I expect DXCC CW and DXCC SSB will still be praised while DXCC DIGI or Mixed >will soon have no much value. > >73, Mirek >SP5ENA > >- >Original Message- >From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of ok1tn >Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 12:26 PM >To: Bob Kupps < n...@yahoo.com > >Cc: Topband reflector < topband@contesting.com >; Steve Ireland < >vk...@arach.net.au > >Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) > >Agree completely from me too. >over 50years on TOP band only CW >ok1tn >-- >73 Slavek Zeler > > > >_ >Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband -- 73, Victor Goncharsky US5WE/K1WE (UW5W in VHF contests, ex UB5WE), P.E. UARL Technical and VHF Committies DXCC Honor Roll #1 (Mixed, Phone), 9BDXCC, 8BWAS DXCC card checker (160 meters). _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
"Has the world really turned upside down and what do you think the future holds?" Hi Steve On the old days we used to call CQ several times and listening, very few people realize what listening really means. It means we need to tune around the band to find someone calling us. Take that knob and spin it! With the computer our habits are different. Nowadays we turn the PC first and if we see a spot or a RBN entry we try to call. The new digital mode is an evolution of doing nothing. Skype would be more fun, digital mode is boring and soon the FT8 user will feel that way too. The best way to know the future is to work on it. We should be back to call CQ for the fun to work someone. Call CQ 5 times and then turn your computer on, every day, if all of us do it once a day, the band will be fun again. 73's N4IS JC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Steve, Thanks for calling me this morning. Good signals. At one time I was interested in EME on 2 Meters. I found out that most of the QSOs were taking lace using some digital means where you didn't even hear the station you were working. My desire went to zero at that point in time. Hopefully we can enjoy hearing and working people for many years to come. 73... Stan, ZF9CW > On Oct 25, 2017, at 3:25 AM, Steve Ireland wrote: > > G’day > > As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white > jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so > intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the > Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. > > For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the > sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran > that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, > I am one sick puppy. > > With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over > the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX > stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in > particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). > > It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being > able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). > > During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in > digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. > > As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals > through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable > technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast > majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had > nothing to do with the audible. > > The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket > (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes > of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital > modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing > with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of > noise. > > While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing > signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure > that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or > DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my > first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. > > Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have > quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have > QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing > has changed, perhaps for ever. > > Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a > looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can > see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central. On some > nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. > > There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for > example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of > FT-8 activity on my band scope. > > Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it > comes down to it, I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it. > > My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no > sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their > voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is > actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost. > > I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still > hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and > to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his > voice. Pure radio magic! > > So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have > become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as > I’ve always enjoyed it. > > Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with > FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down > and what do you think the future holds? > > Vy 73 > > Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
I have to agree with Steve's assessment. I guess that having been licensed for 54 years makes me a "geezer" of sorts and we aren't supposed to like anything "new". I think that the new technology is great to a point. I'm on the internet all the time and the radios are all tied to the computers for logging, spotting, etc. I enjoy that and would not want to go totally back to the "old days". When it comes to actually making a QSOs, I really don't know what you get out of the process where two computers communicate with each other using signals that are not audible. I remember my first JA QSO on 160 (CW) during the morning gray line from my QTH in SE PA. Just before my sunrise, I could hear others calling a JA station that was still mostly in the noise. A few minutes later, his signal started to increase and just at my SR was nearly S9 on my receiver. I made the contact easily and as I continues to listen, his signal began to fall and was then quickly gone. The total elapse time was maybe 2 - 3 minutes. I still remember the thrill of that (and many other) QSOs on 80 & 160. I'm not knocking the guys using the digital modes. It's obviously a new and interesting technology and they are having fun, which is the reason we do this, right? I just have ZERO interest in it all and still get my fun actually hearing and working another station. 73, Stew K3ND From: Steve Ireland To: Topband reflector Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:50 AM Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) G’day As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise. While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central. On some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope. Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes down to it, I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it. My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost. I think
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Bill, don't give up. There is still plenty of magic in ham radio. I get my jollies using vintage and homebrew gear. Can still smell the dust on the hot tubes. There is a good bit of activity on the bands by us BA and HB ops. Also there are those of us who enjoy building rigs from the 1920's and 30's. Parts are still around and most circuits can be as simple as ya want. We would be happy to have you, and others, join the Antique Wireless Assoc. and/or participate in our on-air events using the old tubes and circuits. For me at least, I get a lot of satisfaction using my HB 1924 Meissner osc on 160m at about 5 watts input. I used a window screen with my DX-40 on ten meters back in the early 60's ...just to see if it workedit did load up, can't remember if I made a contact73 de Bill K4JYS - Original Message - From: "Bill Cromwell" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:22:16 AM Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) Heh, I have found myself thinking more and more in recent years of just dropping ham radio. Those psychologists may have oversimplified things a little but there is plenty of meat on those bones. The radio hook was set for me when my father and I were cruising the bands on one of those big old radios that stood on the floor (1950s). A Zenith model radio that was also parlor furniture. We had a pair of window screens connected as the antenna and we intercepted radio traffic from a mountain climbing expedition on the Matterhorn!! We are/were in central michigan. Three days later that was on the "news" and I recall the feeling of "that's old news". The smell of the hot dust on those old vacuum tubes. The feel of the controls in my hand. Hearing those voices so vary far away. The glow of the dial lights (the tubes were hidden inside the 'furniture'). All of those senses get involved with um... real radio. If we take away one or more of them the hobby is diminished. I have fldigi here for *looking* at the digi modes. So far fldigi does not produce any sound for my ears. I have rarely used it because of that. More recently I have simultaneously run a DSP program just so I can hear what is happening. One of my other hobbies (involves all of the senses) is making music. I have acoustic (no electronics) instruments and perform with other musicians who use acoustic instruments. It always sounds better than the electronic junk music and the interaction with other musicians is the same a the human interaction between hams (as opposed to interaction between computers). Certainly that 'other' music is valid as music. Those other modes on the bands are valid as ham radio. But some of us have other preferences and we will always have them. I have noticed that some of the 'new' hams are taking up our modes so there will be others to work on the air - hopefully. Recently some of us were playing to an audience at a community center when the lights went out for a couple of minutes and a couple of times. We never missed a beat :) Sometimes the personal skills developed in ham radio can generate similar stories. So lets all maintain our ham licenses and continue using our favorites modes. Now..how do I get that FT8 running? 73, Bill KU8H On 10/25/2017 06:37 AM, Arthur Delibert wrote: > I’m sure there will be people who say FT8 is just “progress.” But some > psychologists divide people according to whether their preferred mode of > experience is auditory, visual or kinesthetic (touch). I think most of us > who are addicted to radio are primarily auditory – on one level, that’s why > we’re in this hobby. So, no surprise that we find radio without the auditory > component to be unfulfilling. > > Art Delibert, KB3FJO > > Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 > > From: Steve Ireland<mailto:vk...@arach.net.au> > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:26 AM > To: Topband reflector<mailto:topband@contesting.com> > Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) > > G’day > > As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white > jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so > intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the > Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. > > For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the > sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran > that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, > I am one sick puppy. > > With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over > the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX > station
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Hi, FT8, JT65 and similar modes are just computer to computer "QSOs". I expect DXCC CW and DXCC SSB will still be praised while DXCC DIGI or Mixed will soon have no much value. 73, Mirek SP5ENA - Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of ok1tn Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 12:26 PM To: Bob Kupps Cc: Topband reflector ; Steve Ireland Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) Agree completely from me too. over 50years on TOP band only CW ok1tn -- 73 Slavek Zeler _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Heh, I have found myself thinking more and more in recent years of just dropping ham radio. Those psychologists may have oversimplified things a little but there is plenty of meat on those bones. The radio hook was set for me when my father and I were cruising the bands on one of those big old radios that stood on the floor (1950s). A Zenith model radio that was also parlor furniture. We had a pair of window screens connected as the antenna and we intercepted radio traffic from a mountain climbing expedition on the Matterhorn!! We are/were in central michigan. Three days later that was on the "news" and I recall the feeling of "that's old news". The smell of the hot dust on those old vacuum tubes. The feel of the controls in my hand. Hearing those voices so vary far away. The glow of the dial lights (the tubes were hidden inside the 'furniture'). All of those senses get involved with um... real radio. If we take away one or more of them the hobby is diminished. I have fldigi here for *looking* at the digi modes. So far fldigi does not produce any sound for my ears. I have rarely used it because of that. More recently I have simultaneously run a DSP program just so I can hear what is happening. One of my other hobbies (involves all of the senses) is making music. I have acoustic (no electronics) instruments and perform with other musicians who use acoustic instruments. It always sounds better than the electronic junk music and the interaction with other musicians is the same a the human interaction between hams (as opposed to interaction between computers). Certainly that 'other' music is valid as music. Those other modes on the bands are valid as ham radio. But some of us have other preferences and we will always have them. I have noticed that some of the 'new' hams are taking up our modes so there will be others to work on the air - hopefully. Recently some of us were playing to an audience at a community center when the lights went out for a couple of minutes and a couple of times. We never missed a beat :) Sometimes the personal skills developed in ham radio can generate similar stories. So lets all maintain our ham licenses and continue using our favorites modes. Now..how do I get that FT8 running? 73, Bill KU8H On 10/25/2017 06:37 AM, Arthur Delibert wrote: I’m sure there will be people who say FT8 is just “progress.” But some psychologists divide people according to whether their preferred mode of experience is auditory, visual or kinesthetic (touch). I think most of us who are addicted to radio are primarily auditory – on one level, that’s why we’re in this hobby. So, no surprise that we find radio without the auditory component to be unfulfilling. Art Delibert, KB3FJO Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 From: Steve Ireland<mailto:vk...@arach.net.au> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:26 AM To: Topband reflector<mailto:topband@contesting.com> Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) G’day As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise. While some amateurs seemed to have lost the
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
I’m sure there will be people who say FT8 is just “progress.” But some psychologists divide people according to whether their preferred mode of experience is auditory, visual or kinesthetic (touch). I think most of us who are addicted to radio are primarily auditory – on one level, that’s why we’re in this hobby. So, no surprise that we find radio without the auditory component to be unfulfilling. Art Delibert, KB3FJO Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 From: Steve Ireland<mailto:vk...@arach.net.au> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 4:26 AM To: Topband reflector<mailto:topband@contesting.com> Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) G’day As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise. While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central. On some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope. Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes down to it, I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it. My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost. I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic! So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve always enjoyed it. Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and what do you think the future holds? Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflect
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Well said. . .I totally agree. 73. . .Dave, W0FLS -Original Message- From: Steve Ireland Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:25 AM To: Topband reflector Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) G’day As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise. While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central. On some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope. Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes down to it, I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it. My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost. I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic! So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve always enjoyed it. Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and what do you think the future holds? Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Well said,I agree ! I will never forget the adrenaline that flows when KH6AT came back on my CQ . I could HEAR him ! (my last zone on TB) 73 Pat ON7PQ . -Ursprungligt meddelande- Från: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] För Steve Ireland Skickat: woensdag 25 oktober 2017 10:25 Till: Topband reflector Ämne: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) G’day As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise. While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central. On some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope. Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes down to it, I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it. My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost. I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic! So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve always enjoyed it. Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and what do you think the future holds? Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Agree completely from me too. over 50years on TOP band only CW ok1tn -- 73 Slavek Zeler -- Původní e-mail -- Od: Bob Kupps via Topband Komu: Steve Ireland , Topband reflector Datum: 25. 10. 2017 12:17:42 Předmět: Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) "Agree completely Steve. I was going to build a 2m EME station until I learned that computer to computer Qs were the only thing going on there these daysnot for me. 73 Bob HS0ZIA From: Steve Ireland To: Topband reflector Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:50 PM Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) G’day As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise. While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central. On some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope. Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes down to it, I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it. My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost. I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic! So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I ’ve always enjoyed it. Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT -8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and what do you think the future holds? Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband"; _ Topband Reflector Archi
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Hi Steve I FULLY agree on all you write. Unfortunately I also feel that Ham radio is more or less lost. According to me,,,this is NOT Ham radio,, it is digi to digi without any personal feeling. And even more ,it destroy completely the challenge of Ham radio….. Next is to let your computer make these so called QSO:s during the day when you work, and during night ,when you are at sleep.You only check once per day,,what contacts he made, and the computer log for you.And send info to LOTW.Not any cards to look at any more. Just check your standings once per month at computer. At this point all social-connection is gone ,and you can just sit back and rest,,, It was the same this season on 50 mc. After 5th of July ,there was almost NO stations on either CW or SSB. People that I know of, having no interest in the challenge of magic band, worked ??? countries that they never could dream of before. I feel that ARRL should make a new dxcc for only Digi-modes that gives report less as - 1 db.Like in past ,when they used to need a report of minimum 33 or 339. As computer make the ,,,so called qso, and also write the report ,that should be easy to do.And this modes should NOT be counted for the other dxcc-awards. Doing this ,a lot of people ,can work a new dxcc ,if they like ,on these digi modes, and not destroy the old awards. I sent an e-mail concerning this to ARRL about one month ago, to one of the top-guys at dxcc-award. His lazy answer was more or less::: Use ,take it or leave it. Its new times. He / they were NOT interested to think it over, not even do they care. His answer was really not for a hobby. It was just too much for him to think of. WORSE of all is : that it takes away challenge to increase antennas,station and your operating skills. In all other hobbies,,, this is most important, to give some advantage to these that do something extra VERY SORRY, BUT if 50 mc and also 1.8 mc is going to be the same this and coming 2018 season, I stop my ham-radio and will do something else. I give it to end of 2018 ,to see if any changements will come. I think the best to solve this shit,,, is to make a separate dxcc award for it, and not mix with the others. Sorry for long e-mail, BUT I can tell you, for sure,,,many many Hams around our globe,feels similar as you and me. Kind regards Hans SM6CVX > 25 okt 2017 kl. 10:25 skrev Steve Ireland : > > G’day > > As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white > jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so > intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the > Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. > > For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the > sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran > that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, > I am one sick puppy. > > With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over > the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX > stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in > particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). > > It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being > able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). > > During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in > digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. > > As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals > through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable > technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast > majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had > nothing to do with the audible. > > The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket > (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes > of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital > modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing > with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of > noise. > > While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing > signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure > that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or > DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my > first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. > > Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have > quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have > QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing > has changed, perhaps for ever. > > Where once ther
Re: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
Agree completely Steve. I was going to build a 2m EME station until I learned that computer to computer Qs were the only thing going on there these daysnot for me. 73 Bob HS0ZIA From: Steve Ireland To: Topband reflector Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:50 PM Subject: Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long) G’day As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise. While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central. On some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope. Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes down to it, I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it. My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost. I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic! So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve always enjoyed it. Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and what do you think the future holds? Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: FT8 - the end of 160m old school DXing? (long)
G’day As a committed (yeah, that’s probably the right word - complete with white jacket that laces up at the back) topbander since 1970, I’ve never been so intrigued and disturbed by anything on the band as the emergence of the Franke-Taylor FT-8 digital mode. For me, radio has always been all about what I audibly hear. I love all the sounds that radio signals make - and even miss the comforting sound of Loran that I grew up with around 1930kHz as a teenager in south-east England. Yeah, I am one sick puppy. With the emergence of high resolution bandscopes through SDR technology over the last decade, I embraced that as it meant that I could find what DX stations I wanted to hear and contact quicker and more easily (and, in particular, before those stations who didn’t have the same technology). It was really exciting and enhanced the sensual experience of radio by being able to see what I could hear (and no dinosaur me, I was an SDR fan boy!). During this period, there has also been an extraordinary development in digital radio modes, in particular by Joe Taylor K1JT. As a topbander I could see that these modes in which you ‘saw’ signals through the medium of computer screen or window as being a remarkable technical achievement, but had relatively little to do what I and the vast majority of active radio amateurs practiced as radio on 160m, as it had nothing to do with the audible. The good thing was that I could see that good old CW and Silly Slop Bucket (you can see where my prejudices lie) that I like to use were still the modes of choice for weak signal DX topband radio contact as these fancy digital modes were either very slow or, if they weren’t, were not good at dealing with signals that faded up and down or were covered in varying amounts of noise. While some amateurs seemed to have lost the pleasure of actually hearing signals in favour of viewing them on their computer screens, I felt secure that these digital modes were just a minor annoyance and any serious DXer or DXpedition was never going to seriously going to use them, particularly on my first and all-time love topband, for other than experimentation. Then, out of the blue, along comes FT-8. Joe and Steve Franke K9AN have quietly created the holy grail of digital operation with a mode that can have QSOs almost as fast as CW and SSB and over the last eight weeks 160m DXing has changed, perhaps for ever. Where once there were a few weak CW and SSB signals (I am in VK6, which is a looong way from anywhere with a population so we only ever hear a few), I can see that the busiest part of the band is 1840 kHz – FT-8 central. On some nights I can see FT-8 signals on the band but no CW or SSB. There are countries I’ve dreamed for 20 years of hearing on 160m SSB/CW (for example, KG4) regularly appearing on DX clusters and I can see the heap of FT-8 activity on my band scope. Frustration sets in and I even downloaded the FT-8 software but, when it comes down to it, I just can’t use it. My heart isn’t in it. My computer will be talking to someone else’s computer and there will be no sense of either a particular person’s way of sending CW or the tone of their voice (even the way some my SSB mates overdrive their transceivers is actually creating nostalgia in me). The human in radio has somehow been lost. I think back to my best-ever 160m SSB contact with Pedro NP4A and I can still hear the sound of his voice, his accent, when he came up out of the noise and to my amazement answered me on my second call, with real excitement in his voice. Pure radio magic! So I am sitting here, feeling depressed and wondering if overnight I have become a dinosaur and this is the beginning of the end of topband radio as I’ve always enjoyed it. Now, over to you other topbanders, especially those who have dabbled with FT-8 and live in more populous areas. Has the world really turned upside down and what do you think the future holds? Vy 73 Steve, VK6VZ/G3ZZD --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
