Re: Topband: Radial plate
A system I used that worked very well was four 81' elevated (up 20') radials after a single coil. The antenna was a tree supported inverted L. This is straight from the ON4UN handbook. Another ham neighbor used four 67' elevated radials after a single coil, also from the same section in the ON4UN hand book ... 4th Edition page 9-25 ... It was very easy resonating the system with that single coil but the best SWR was about 2.5. That problem was solved with a hairpin match. At the time I was living near Sewanee, TN on a sandstone plateau with the worst possible ground conductivity, about a "2" according to the map. I don't think I can attach a photo of the feed point and send it to the group but can sure send to anyone interested in seeing what it looks like. 73, Mike WA5POK On Monday, July 2, 2018 12:05 PM, Grant Saviers wrote: I agree that resonating 8 elevated radials would be a aggravating task. I have 8 10' elevated 125' +/- radials for my T loaded vertical. I made no effort to resonate them. OTOH, for one or two radials, resonating them is important. N6LF covered this in his papers on elevated radials. antennasbyn6lf.com also a two part series in QEX 2012 My installation has significant imbalance in radial currents, as much as 3.4:1 highest to lowest as measured with an MFJ854 RF current meter that I calibrated. The causes are proximity to a steel building and a tower for two of them. The others are intermittently in forest and over grass. With the 13ga aluminum wire I use for elevated radials the excess RF power loss from unbalance is less than 1% I^2*R using skin depth resistances. I modeled (EZNEC Pro4) the antenna with 8 current sources of the actual values in each radial. The azimuth pattern distortion is 1db. The gain is 0.05db lower . The two highest current radials are adjacent. This leads me to believe that for 8 or more elevated radials there is small benefit to pattern uniformity or efficiency with resonated radials or for finding some no loss means to equalize the radial currents. N6LF concludes that for his recommended 10 elevated radials, efficiency and pattern sensitivity to length and current asymmetry is low. I've had good results mechanically with 13ga aluminum electric fence wire. There is no skin depth problem on 160m which may happen with cheap copperweld steel. Aluminum is also available 9ga which is tough stuff. As noted the very little stretch doesn't matter. Grant KZ1W On 7/1/2018 16:14 PM, Charles Moizeau wrote: > With in-ground, which optimally should be be so shallow as to be on-ground, > radials there's no thought or effort needed to think about them as being > anything close to the intended radiation frequency. > > > But with elevated radials my understanding, and it is more nonexistent than > limited because I've never tried them, is that all have to be physically > matched to one another yet tuned to the radiation frequency, and this > requirement is an extremely fiddly undertaking because there will be nearby > objects, e.g., trees, varying ground slopes, etc. that will differently > affect radials of identical physical length. > > > Charles, W2SH > > > From: Topband on behalf of N2TK, Tony > > Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2018 5:01 PM > To: 'Carl'; topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate > > Hi Carl, > One advantages of going underground. No more wires hanging up in the air. It > will look cleaner. But I do not have any idea if my signal will degrade > going with buried radials over the 5 elevated radials at each feedpoint. The > ice was brutal this past winter. > Why do you say there will be a large signal loss going from elevated to > ground radials? You got my attentions with that statement. > N2TK, Tony > > -Original Message- > From: Carl [mailto:k...@jeremy.qozzy.com] > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2018 3:51 PM > To: N2TK, Tony ; topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate > > Since the change to on ground radials can result in a large loss of signal > in some areas why not just invest in stronger elevated radials? > > I use scrapped deep well wire from well shops which is available in #12 to 6 > in this area in 2 and 3 wire insulated styles and is often free. . For the > 16 160M radials up 12-15' they run over tree branches and also over fairly > open areas. > > Since I live on top of the tallest hill in the area of Southern NH Im > exposed to everything Mother Nature can throw at me from all > directions.ice included. Back when I used #18 & 16 it was regularly > needing repair, amd now nothing in about 12 years. It acts/handles like a > cross between soft drawn house wire and hard drawn. > > #16 to12 copper clad steel is available also with and wit
Re: Topband: Radial plate
I agree that resonating 8 elevated radials would be a aggravating task. I have 8 10' elevated 125' +/- radials for my T loaded vertical. I made no effort to resonate them. OTOH, for one or two radials, resonating them is important. N6LF covered this in his papers on elevated radials. antennasbyn6lf.com also a two part series in QEX 2012 My installation has significant imbalance in radial currents, as much as 3.4:1 highest to lowest as measured with an MFJ854 RF current meter that I calibrated. The causes are proximity to a steel building and a tower for two of them. The others are intermittently in forest and over grass. With the 13ga aluminum wire I use for elevated radials the excess RF power loss from unbalance is less than 1% I^2*R using skin depth resistances. I modeled (EZNEC Pro4) the antenna with 8 current sources of the actual values in each radial. The azimuth pattern distortion is 1db. The gain is 0.05db lower . The two highest current radials are adjacent. This leads me to believe that for 8 or more elevated radials there is small benefit to pattern uniformity or efficiency with resonated radials or for finding some no loss means to equalize the radial currents. N6LF concludes that for his recommended 10 elevated radials, efficiency and pattern sensitivity to length and current asymmetry is low. I've had good results mechanically with 13ga aluminum electric fence wire. There is no skin depth problem on 160m which may happen with cheap copperweld steel. Aluminum is also available 9ga which is tough stuff. As noted the very little stretch doesn't matter. Grant KZ1W On 7/1/2018 16:14 PM, Charles Moizeau wrote: With in-ground, which optimally should be be so shallow as to be on-ground, radials there's no thought or effort needed to think about them as being anything close to the intended radiation frequency. But with elevated radials my understanding, and it is more nonexistent than limited because I've never tried them, is that all have to be physically matched to one another yet tuned to the radiation frequency, and this requirement is an extremely fiddly undertaking because there will be nearby objects, e.g., trees, varying ground slopes, etc. that will differently affect radials of identical physical length. Charles, W2SH From: Topband on behalf of N2TK, Tony Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2018 5:01 PM To: 'Carl'; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate Hi Carl, One advantages of going underground. No more wires hanging up in the air. It will look cleaner. But I do not have any idea if my signal will degrade going with buried radials over the 5 elevated radials at each feedpoint. The ice was brutal this past winter. Why do you say there will be a large signal loss going from elevated to ground radials? You got my attentions with that statement. N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Carl [mailto:k...@jeremy.qozzy.com] Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2018 3:51 PM To: N2TK, Tony ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate Since the change to on ground radials can result in a large loss of signal in some areas why not just invest in stronger elevated radials? I use scrapped deep well wire from well shops which is available in #12 to 6 in this area in 2 and 3 wire insulated styles and is often free. . For the 16 160M radials up 12-15' they run over tree branches and also over fairly open areas. Since I live on top of the tallest hill in the area of Southern NH Im exposed to everything Mother Nature can throw at me from all directions.ice included. Back when I used #18 & 16 it was regularly needing repair, amd now nothing in about 12 years. It acts/handles like a cross between soft drawn house wire and hard drawn. #16 to12 copper clad steel is available also with and without a strong jacket and stranded or solid.. Carl - Original Message - From: "N2TK, Tony" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 9:08 AM Subject: Topband: Radial plate Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3' up from the ground so they don't get snow covered often. Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? Also going to use buried feedlines - RG6, � wave with 8 turns through #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. 73, N2TK, Tony _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contestin
Re: Topband: Radial plate
Hi Carl, I am in upstate NY. We have decent soil but several feet down we are on solid rock. I'm envious of your receive antennas. I miss the 625' beverages I had in Joisey. Only can fit in around 300' beverages here. That is why I switched to Pennants, Flags and now have one W1FV 3-el array set up. So, definitely a compromise here. Only 285 countries and 35 zones on 160M. I shunt feed the tower on 160M. If I can hear them I can work them, usually. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Carl [mailto:k...@jeremy.qozzy.com] Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2018 9:21 PM To: N2TK, Tony ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate The loss all depends upon your actual RF ground resistance. which ranges from a near perfect salt water marsh to granite, deep glacial sand, and rocky soils being among the worst. Loss of 2-3 dB is common at the LOWEST angles wheras others keep quoting the lobe peak which doesnt change that much. Good BCB antennas have great groundwave BUT at night they can be heard half the world away thanks to those real low and efficient angles which become skywaves. Available ham software doenst work very well down there. . I consider 1 dB loss to be the threshold between a QSO or not, some consider it less than that and Im strictly a CW DXer on 160 and realize that a high percentage of the DX is at a serious disadvantage noise wise. For RX I use 5 2 wire Beverages for 10 directions in the 500-750' range so Im not particularly hearing limited because of my Southern NH granite hilltop. Just my opinion Tony after over 300 countries and 39 zones over several decades. Carl - Original Message - From: "N2TK, Tony" To: "'Carl'" ; Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2018 5:01 PM Subject: RE: Topband: Radial plate Hi Carl, One advantages of going underground. No more wires hanging up in the air. It will look cleaner. But I do not have any idea if my signal will degrade going with buried radials over the 5 elevated radials at each feedpoint. The ice was brutal this past winter. Why do you say there will be a large signal loss going from elevated to ground radials? You got my attentions with that statement. N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Carl [mailto:k...@jeremy.qozzy.com] Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2018 3:51 PM To: N2TK, Tony ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate Since the change to on ground radials can result in a large loss of signal in some areas why not just invest in stronger elevated radials? I use scrapped deep well wire from well shops which is available in #12 to 6 in this area in 2 and 3 wire insulated styles and is often free. . For the 16 160M radials up 12-15' they run over tree branches and also over fairly open areas. Since I live on top of the tallest hill in the area of Southern NH Im exposed to everything Mother Nature can throw at me from all directions.ice included. Back when I used #18 & 16 it was regularly needing repair, amd now nothing in about 12 years. It acts/handles like a cross between soft drawn house wire and hard drawn. #16 to12 copper clad steel is available also with and without a strong jacket and stranded or solid.. Carl - Original Message - From: "N2TK, Tony" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 9:08 AM Subject: Topband: Radial plate Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3' up from the ground so they don't get snow covered often. Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? Also going to use buried feedlines - RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. 73, N2TK, Tony _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial plate
Charles, Originally I had four 1/4 wave radials at each feedpoint. The pattern was terrible. I shortened them to 52' and put up five elevated radials at each feedpoint. I tied the five radials together at each feedpoint and added a coil to have minimum dumped power at 3775 KHZ. I used a current probe at the coil of each radial. The current was now pretty much identical. The pattern with the Comtek box improved dramatically. The system seems to work okay. The reasons why I want to put the radials on the ground is to make the back yard look a little cleaner and less chance for storm damage such as when a few branches come down from ice. But what I don't know is if I am giving up measureable performance going to ground mounted radials over elevated radials. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Charles Moizeau Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2018 7:15 PM To: N2TK, Tony ; Topband Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate With in-ground, which optimally should be be so shallow as to be on-ground, radials there's no thought or effort needed to think about them as being anything close to the intended radiation frequency. But with elevated radials my understanding, and it is more nonexistent than limited because I've never tried them, is that all have to be physically matched to one another yet tuned to the radiation frequency, and this requirement is an extremely fiddly undertaking because there will be nearby objects, e.g., trees, varying ground slopes, etc. that will differently affect radials of identical physical length. Charles, W2SH From: Topband on behalf of N2TK, Tony Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2018 5:01 PM To: 'Carl'; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate Hi Carl, One advantages of going underground. No more wires hanging up in the air. It will look cleaner. But I do not have any idea if my signal will degrade going with buried radials over the 5 elevated radials at each feedpoint. The ice was brutal this past winter. Why do you say there will be a large signal loss going from elevated to ground radials? You got my attentions with that statement. N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Carl [mailto:k...@jeremy.qozzy.com] Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2018 3:51 PM To: N2TK, Tony ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate Since the change to on ground radials can result in a large loss of signal in some areas why not just invest in stronger elevated radials? I use scrapped deep well wire from well shops which is available in #12 to 6 in this area in 2 and 3 wire insulated styles and is often free. . For the 16 160M radials up 12-15' they run over tree branches and also over fairly open areas. Since I live on top of the tallest hill in the area of Southern NH Im exposed to everything Mother Nature can throw at me from all directions.ice included. Back when I used #18 & 16 it was regularly needing repair, amd now nothing in about 12 years. It acts/handles like a cross between soft drawn house wire and hard drawn. #16 to12 copper clad steel is available also with and without a strong jacket and stranded or solid.. Carl - Original Message - From: "N2TK, Tony" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 9:08 AM Subject: Topband: Radial plate Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3' up from the ground so they don't get snow covered often. Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? Also going to use buried feedlines - RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. 73, N2TK, Tony _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial plate
With in-ground, which optimally should be be so shallow as to be on-ground, radials there's no thought or effort needed to think about them as being anything close to the intended radiation frequency. But with elevated radials my understanding, and it is more nonexistent than limited because I've never tried them, is that all have to be physically matched to one another yet tuned to the radiation frequency, and this requirement is an extremely fiddly undertaking because there will be nearby objects, e.g., trees, varying ground slopes, etc. that will differently affect radials of identical physical length. Charles, W2SH From: Topband on behalf of N2TK, Tony Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2018 5:01 PM To: 'Carl'; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate Hi Carl, One advantages of going underground. No more wires hanging up in the air. It will look cleaner. But I do not have any idea if my signal will degrade going with buried radials over the 5 elevated radials at each feedpoint. The ice was brutal this past winter. Why do you say there will be a large signal loss going from elevated to ground radials? You got my attentions with that statement. N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Carl [mailto:k...@jeremy.qozzy.com] Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2018 3:51 PM To: N2TK, Tony ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate Since the change to on ground radials can result in a large loss of signal in some areas why not just invest in stronger elevated radials? I use scrapped deep well wire from well shops which is available in #12 to 6 in this area in 2 and 3 wire insulated styles and is often free. . For the 16 160M radials up 12-15' they run over tree branches and also over fairly open areas. Since I live on top of the tallest hill in the area of Southern NH Im exposed to everything Mother Nature can throw at me from all directions.ice included. Back when I used #18 & 16 it was regularly needing repair, amd now nothing in about 12 years. It acts/handles like a cross between soft drawn house wire and hard drawn. #16 to12 copper clad steel is available also with and without a strong jacket and stranded or solid.. Carl - Original Message - From: "N2TK, Tony" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 9:08 AM Subject: Topband: Radial plate Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3' up from the ground so they don't get snow covered often. Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? Also going to use buried feedlines - RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. 73, N2TK, Tony _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial plate
Hi Carl, One advantages of going underground. No more wires hanging up in the air. It will look cleaner. But I do not have any idea if my signal will degrade going with buried radials over the 5 elevated radials at each feedpoint. The ice was brutal this past winter. Why do you say there will be a large signal loss going from elevated to ground radials? You got my attentions with that statement. N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Carl [mailto:k...@jeremy.qozzy.com] Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2018 3:51 PM To: N2TK, Tony ; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate Since the change to on ground radials can result in a large loss of signal in some areas why not just invest in stronger elevated radials? I use scrapped deep well wire from well shops which is available in #12 to 6 in this area in 2 and 3 wire insulated styles and is often free. . For the 16 160M radials up 12-15' they run over tree branches and also over fairly open areas. Since I live on top of the tallest hill in the area of Southern NH Im exposed to everything Mother Nature can throw at me from all directions.ice included. Back when I used #18 & 16 it was regularly needing repair, amd now nothing in about 12 years. It acts/handles like a cross between soft drawn house wire and hard drawn. #16 to12 copper clad steel is available also with and without a strong jacket and stranded or solid.. Carl - Original Message - From: "N2TK, Tony" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 9:08 AM Subject: Topband: Radial plate Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3' up from the ground so they don't get snow covered often. Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? Also going to use buried feedlines - RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. 73, N2TK, Tony _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial plate
Hi Tony, I had also looked at the DXE radial plate for verticals at my new qth. I settled instead on wide copper strap (a length of which you're probably already purchasing for the feedpoint connections) arranged in a square around the 4x4 and brazed the radials to that with a torch. This is similar to the radial system construction on broadcast sites. I'm using a commercial choke that precludes use of the "built-in" connector on the plate and I don't intend to remove radials anytime soon, so the screw connectors are of no additional utility to me. At that point, it's a $60 square of holy stainless with the DXE logo on it (x4 for a 4sq). I'm sure it's a heck of a product, though -- just not for this installation. YMMV. Mike N1TA On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 9:12 AM N2TK, Tony wrote: > > Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my > 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past > winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on > having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3’ up from the ground > so they don’t get snow covered often. > > Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie > the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the > feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? > > > > Also going to use buried feedlines – RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through #31 > big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. > > 73, > > N2TK, Tony > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial plate
Wes, Tnx for the input. 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Wes Stewart Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 11:19 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate Tony, I'm using a DX Engineering plate on my 160 inverted-L. In my case, I also have the HD tiltover fixture mounted on a 3" diameter pipe cast in concrete. I mount the plate a bit over 1" above the concrete surface so there is room to install the bolts around the edge of the plate from below. As to running a ground wire up from the plate, understand that this will be part of the antenna. If the coax is parallel to this I imagine some coupling that might defeat the choke. Wes N7WS On 6/27/2018 6:08 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote: > Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials > for my > 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this > past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I > plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3’ up > from the ground so they don’t get snow covered often. > > Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way > to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to > a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? > > > > Also going to use buried feedlines – RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through > #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. > > 73, > > N2TK, Tony > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial plate
Hi Frank, Tnx for the input. Getting input to use copper strap from the radial plate to the feedbox. The feedbox is where I have a relay to switch in a coil to go from phone to CW. I already got the cables and ferrite made up so I guess it won’t hurt to leave it that way. I want to keep the feedpoint off the ground because of snow and ice. That is why I picked 3’. With the elevated radial system I also switched in a coil. That gave me very low dumped power with the Comtek box for both phone and CW. 73, N2TK, Tony From: donov...@starpower.net [mailto:donov...@starpower.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 11:33 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate Hi Tony, Your proposed configuration will work fine. Your three foot wire is actually part of your vertical. You're vertical will need to be shortened a few feet to achieve resonance. While its very important to use a common mode choke with elevated radials, its completely unnecessary when you use radials laid on the ground or slightly buried except in the case of a sparse radial field which I'm sure will not be the case at N2TK, Good luck, you'll like your results! Its well worth the effort. 73 Frank W3LPL _ From: "Tony N2TK" mailto:tony@verizon.net> > To: topband@contesting.com <mailto:topband@contesting.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 1:08:49 PM Subject: Topband: Radial plate Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3’ up from the ground so they don’t get snow covered often. Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? Also going to use buried feedlines – RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. 73, N2TK, Tony _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial plate
Paul, Tnx for your feedback. Good info 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Paul Christensen [mailto:w...@arrl.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 9:51 AM To: 'N2TK, Tony' ; topband@contesting.com Subject: RE: Topband: Radial plate Tony, Instead of a wire, consider using a short 1/2" wide copper strap from the radial plate up to the coaxial input connection on your box. I think you made the right choice in using a separate box for the feed. I recently did the same with NEMA 4x4x2 boxes mounted on a 2-inch pipe. The SO-239 mounting hole in the DXE radial plate is convenient, but not practical for most of us since the connector is at, or near the ground surface. The connector then becomes susceptible to snow and/or vegetation growing up through it. The DXE radial plate should have been made to accommodate standard 2-hole lugs. It's unfortunate because it was easy to implement at the time of design. 2-hole lugs cant spin and loosen on the mounting bolt when accidentally struck. That would have brought the plate up to commercial telecom standards. When I worked for AT Broadband, I wrote portions of their Network Architectural Manual that focused on facilities readiness standards. We required 2-hole lugs at all ground bonding points or a site failed compliance testing. Paul, W9AC -Original Message- From: Topband On Behalf Of N2TK, Tony Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 9:09 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Radial plate Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3 up from the ground so they dont get snow covered often. Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? Also going to use buried feedlines RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. 73, N2TK, Tony _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial plate
Brian, Tnx for the info. I won a gift certificate at Dayton from DXEngineering and trying to decide what I should spend it on :-) 73, N2TK, Tony -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Brian Pease Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 10:00 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial plate I have a DX Engineering radial plate bolted to the tilt-over base of my aluminum tower. It is very nice, and I use the coax cable feature to ground my feedline. It is really overkill for your purpose. I would crimp *_and solder _*ring terminals onto each radial, with perhaps 1/4" holes. I would then stack them on a long 1/4-20 Stainless hex head bolt along with the wire to run up the pole, then seriously tighten the bolt. Trivial cost & easier to do. On 6/27/2018 9:08 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote: > Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials > for my > 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this > past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I > plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3’ up > from the ground so they don’t get snow covered often. > > Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way > to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to > a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? > > > > Also going to use buried feedlines – RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through > #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. > > 73, > > N2TK, Tony > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial plate
Hi Tony, Your proposed configuration will work fine. Your three foot wire is actually part of your vertical. You're vertical will need to be shortened a few feet to achieve resonance. While its very important to use a common mode choke with elevated radials, its completely unnecessary when you use radials laid on the ground or slightly buried except in the case of a sparse radial field which I'm sure will not be the case at N2TK, Good luck, you'll like your results! Its well worth the effort. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Tony N2TK" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 1:08:49 PM Subject: Topband: Radial plate Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3’ up from the ground so they don’t get snow covered often. Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? Also going to use buried feedlines – RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. 73, N2TK, Tony _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial plate
Tony, I'm using a DX Engineering plate on my 160 inverted-L. In my case, I also have the HD tiltover fixture mounted on a 3" diameter pipe cast in concrete. I mount the plate a bit over 1" above the concrete surface so there is room to install the bolts around the edge of the plate from below. As to running a ground wire up from the plate, understand that this will be part of the antenna. If the coax is parallel to this I imagine some coupling that might defeat the choke. Wes N7WS On 6/27/2018 6:08 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote: Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3’ up from the ground so they don’t get snow covered often. Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? Also going to use buried feedlines – RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. 73, N2TK, Tony _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial plate
I have a DX Engineering radial plate bolted to the tilt-over base of my aluminum tower. It is very nice, and I use the coax cable feature to ground my feedline. It is really overkill for your purpose. I would crimp *_and solder _*ring terminals onto each radial, with perhaps 1/4" holes. I would then stack them on a long 1/4-20 Stainless hex head bolt along with the wire to run up the pole, then seriously tighten the bolt. Trivial cost & easier to do. On 6/27/2018 9:08 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote: Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3’ up from the ground so they don’t get snow covered often. Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? Also going to use buried feedlines – RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. 73, N2TK, Tony _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial plate
Tony, Instead of a wire, consider using a short 1/2" wide copper strap from the radial plate up to the coaxial input connection on your box. I think you made the right choice in using a separate box for the feed. I recently did the same with NEMA 4x4x2 boxes mounted on a 2-inch pipe. The SO-239 mounting hole in the DXE radial plate is convenient, but not practical for most of us since the connector is at, or near the ground surface. The connector then becomes susceptible to snow and/or vegetation growing up through it. The DXE radial plate should have been made to accommodate standard 2-hole lugs. It's unfortunate because it was easy to implement at the time of design. 2-hole lugs cant spin and loosen on the mounting bolt when accidentally struck. That would have brought the plate up to commercial telecom standards. When I worked for AT Broadband, I wrote portions of their Network Architectural Manual that focused on facilities readiness standards. We required 2-hole lugs at all ground bonding points or a site failed compliance testing. Paul, W9AC -Original Message- From: Topband On Behalf Of N2TK, Tony Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 9:09 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Radial plate Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3 up from the ground so they dont get snow covered often. Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? Also going to use buried feedlines RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. 73, N2TK, Tony _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Radial plate
Planning on changing from elevated radials to ground mounted radials for my 80 M 4-sq. After twice having to rebuild the elevated radials this past winter from the snow/ice storms it is time to go to the ground. I plan on having the feedpoints on 4x4 posts with the feedpoints 3 up from the ground so they dont get snow covered often. Looking at the DXEngineering Radial plates. It looks like an easy way to tie the radials together on the ground then run a ground wire up to a box at the feedpoint. Any comments or issues with using these radial plates? Also going to use buried feedlines RG6, ¾ wave with 8 turns through #31 big clamp-on core at the feedpoint. 73, N2TK, Tony _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial plate height
Hi Jorge, one degree of phase on 160 meters is 18 inches. Any dimension less than 18 inches will have no significant affect on 160 meters. Your ground platew will work perfectly at 5 inches high 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com To: 'TopBand List' topband@contesting.com Sent: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 11:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Topband: radial plate height Hello I am installing a DXE radial plate in the base of a vertical. My doubt is if the heigh affect in something the performance. I have it at 5 inches from ground, easy to work with it installing the radials on the plate with nuts and bolts Is any problem? It must be lower near the ground or not problem to have it at 5 inches from ground? Thanks, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: radial plate height
Hello I am installing a DXE radial plate in the base of a vertical. My doubt is if the heigh affect in something the performance. I have it at 5 inches from ground, easy to work with it installing the radials on the plate with nuts and bolts Is any problem? It must be lower near the ground or not problem to have it at 5 inches from ground? Thanks, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial plate height
Thanks very much Frank! 73, Jorge -Mensaje original- De: donov...@starpower.net [mailto:donov...@starpower.net] Enviado el: lunes, 28 de septiembre de 2015 12:16 p.m. Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM CC: 'TopBand List' Asunto: Re: Topband: radial plate height Hi Jorge, one degree of phase on 160 meters is 18 inches. Any dimension less than 18 inches will have no significant affect on 160 meters. Your ground platew will work perfectly at 5 inches high 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: Jorge Diez - CX6VM cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com To: 'TopBand List' topband@contesting.com Sent: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 11:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Topband: radial plate height Hello I am installing a DXE radial plate in the base of a vertical. My doubt is if the heigh affect in something the performance. I have it at 5 inches from ground, easy to work with it installing the radials on the plate with nuts and bolts Is any problem? It must be lower near the ground or not problem to have it at 5 inches from ground? Thanks, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electr nico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Plate Design
w8ji at w8ji.com Wed Feb 4 11:32:18 EST 2015 I just twist my wires in a coherent lump, flux it with liquid flux, and flood the twisted area with solder. If I get really sophisticated, I slide a piece of copper pipe over the twisted area, crimp it, and flood the whole inside with solder. At towers, where people have to walk over the radials and a bunch of wires are a PITA, I solder to a square made from copper flashing. NEVER use regular lead/tin solder if there is any possibility that it will come in direct contact with the soil. Minerals in the soil will quickly turn the solder to white powder. I once used leaded solder to attach ground radials to a copper ring at the base of an inverted L. I ended up having to re-solder the entire ring of radials about once a month. The soldered connection would just fall apart, and the radial wires would fall loose from the ring. The radials to my present vertical were attached using silver alloy brazing rods, heated with a Mapp Gas torch. The rods and torch are widely available at plumbing suppliers, since it is against code to use regular lead solder with copper plumbing for the same reason that it doesn't work with ground radials; minerals in the water eventually destroy the soldered connection and the pipe joint springs a leak, plus the danger that lead may leach and contaminate the drinking water. The rods are not cheap, but they are not prohibitively expensive either. I brazed my radial system together in 1983, the soldered connections are buried below grade, and the silver solder connections are as solid to-day as the day they were installed, with no visible corrosion. Above-ground connections exposed to the elements over the past 32 years likewise remain intact. I use 15% silver content flat brazing rods, about 1/8 wide and 18 long. No flux is necessary. Copper sucks up that silver brazing alloy like a sponge soaks up water. Just remove any dirt or scaly corrosion with a wire brush; no need to polish the copper to a sheen. I could never understand why anyone would prefer to use a crappy metal plate with screw-on connections, when it is so simple to silver-braze connections that will last for the life of the radial system and vertical radiator, and will probably outlast the life of the antenna owner. A screw-on connection, especially in contact with the soil and subject to outdoor temperature variations will eventually fail. Those Hammy Hambone radial plates I have seen advertised are considerably more expensive than a handful of silver brazing rods and a Mapp gas outfit. Don k4kyv _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Plate Designs
I use these ground bars. I don't like soldered connections outdoors. I picked up my ground bars at a hamfest. They are made out of copper, not aluminum. Does anyone know where I can purchase the copper ground bars today? If you use the aluminum ground bars with copper wire I'd use an al-cu anti oxidant compound like Penetrox. Mike N2MS - Original Message - From: Tim Shoppa tsho...@gmail.com To: Paul Christensen w...@arrl.net, topBand List topband@contesting.com Sent: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 15:31:59 - (UTC) Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Plate Designs A different idea than lug connections, is to use load-center style ground bars bolted to the metal plate. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-23-Terminal-Load-Center-Ground-Bar-Kit-PK23GTACP/100129430 I fully agree this is not up to Bellcore grounding standards. But seems much more ham-amenable, especially for those of us who unroll many of our random-gauge radial wires across driveways and lawns on contest weekends and hook up in cold weather - the clamp screws in the ground bars are easily worked with a screwdriver in a gloved hand and accomodate any random-sized-style conductor. Tim N3QE On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Paul Christensen w...@arrl.net wrote: I've long thought about designing a radial plate that addresses some significant limitations with currently available product. Specially, every commercially available radial plate uses single-hole lugs to attach a radial wire to the plate. The problem is that with upwards of 60+ lugs in harms way of accidental contact, single-hole lugs are very susceptible to rotation and loosening. In the link below, you'll see a different kind of radial plate that makes use of double-hole lugs. http://tinyurl.com/pykx44x snip Paul, W9AC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Plate Designs
A different idea than lug connections, is to use load-center style ground bars bolted to the metal plate. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-23-Terminal-Load-Center-Ground-Bar-Kit-PK23GTACP/100129430 I fully agree this is not up to Bellcore grounding standards. But seems much more ham-amenable, especially for those of us who unroll many of our random-gauge radial wires across driveways and lawns on contest weekends and hook up in cold weather - the clamp screws in the ground bars are easily worked with a screwdriver in a gloved hand and accomodate any random-sized-style conductor. At little verticals no one gets close to, I just twist my wires in a coherent lump, flux it with liquid flux, and flood the twisted area with solder. If I get really sophisticated, I slide a piece of copper pipe over the twisted area, crimp it, and flood the whole inside with solder. At towers, where people have to walk over the radials and a bunch of wires are a PITA, I solder to a square made from copper flashing. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Plate Designs - dual hole compression lugs
http://ecat.burndy.com/Comergent/burndy/search/YA*FX* this is just the top line manufacturer of compression lugs, the link should take you to the page for dual hole lugs Similar products are available from a number of suppliers. All the major communications hardware suppliers have a variety - Talley, Tessco, SitePro1, to name just a few Be prepared for sticker shock, These are NOT your surplus or swap meet lugs Sitepro probably has them at the lowest price in small (or large ) quantity http://www.sitepro1.com/store/cart.php?m=product_listc=15 this list shows both single and double hole, long and short shank They also have galvanized bolts and nuts - and stainless - to bolt it all together with. Fanatics use silicon bronze bolts, nuts, washers when making a ground system - usually for surge/lightening reduction grounding systems, but they will work just fine for a radial system. Robin WA6CDR - Original Message - From: Gary Smith g...@ka1j.com To: Topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 10:57 Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Plate Designs I've never seen the dual hole lugs but they certainly would stop the attachments from moving. I like the idea. I made my own radial plate from a 18 x 18 x 3/16 SS plate with a square hole cut in the center for a butternut to be placed. I have 20 1/4 holes cut in per side. I used SS bolts, split ring keepers on each side of the plate, washers nuts. I used Penatrox on both sides of the plate inbetwixt all connections. For solder to the radials I used non-lead plumbing solder and assembled this 4 or 5 years ago. It rests on a bog on a salt water marsh, one that was under salt water thanks to Hurricane Sandy (My Ameritron RCS-8V used to select which antenna wire to use was just barely above the water and spared damage). This fall I went down to check the connections and remove the debris that accumulates on the plate, it was totally covered by dirt and organic material. In these rather harsh conditions I can say there was no visible oxidation whatsoever on the solder, had I used lead, it would have been significant. The 60 or so 130' radials were firmly attached albeit several nuts did turn a bit as I tightened them down. The Penetrox was still obviously present and the only sign of damage was oxidation to the exposed copper braids at the end of all coax leading to the 5 different antenna. I replaced the coax and all is good for another year. How I get my wires over the trees you can see at the bottom of my QRZ page. In summary; - In Salt Marsh/Salt water conditions SS plate is ideal as long as the hardware also is SS. - Leadless plumbing solder is an excellent choice for durability and secure attachment to the radials. - Not sure if the use of split ring keepers are necessary but due to the slipperiness of the Penatrox I decided to use them to gain a better purchase while tightening the bolts. Essentially, the connections have remained secure for the last 4-5 years. 73, Gary KA1J --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Radial Plate Designs
I've long thought about designing a radial plate that addresses some significant limitations with currently available product. Specially, every commercially available radial plate uses single-hole lugs to attach a radial wire to the plate. The problem is that with upwards of 60+ lugs in harms way of accidental contact, single-hole lugs are very susceptible to rotation and loosening. In the link below, you'll see a different kind of radial plate that makes use of double-hole lugs. http://tinyurl.com/pykx44x Around the perimeter of the plate, you'll see 120 paired holes in addition to an extra set of corner lugs for system grounding. This is the type of ground attachment required at Bellcore hardened facilities (now Telcordia). When I was with ATT Broadband Engineering, every ground bond at its fiber optic-hub sites required two-hole lugs to pass compliance testing. Once tightened, the lug cannot spin loose. Over time, the connection maintains much better mechanical and electrical contact with the plate. A typical two-hole lug looks like this: http://www.alliedelec.com/images/products/datasheets/bm/T_B/70092228.pdf Although this plate has pairing for 120 radials, the plate can be scaled down to sizes of 30, 60, and 90 radials. Each hole is tapped for a 1/4 inch bolt - which does not preclude use of an additional nut on the back side of the plate. The center area has mounting for various angled plates to mount saddle brackets, antenna connectors, etc. Before anyone with a related patent takes issue with this, I not making, nor supplying these plates. Rather, the design file(s) will be made available to anyone who may wish to use and modify at-will. The user can select plate thickness, remove the double lugs and replace with single lugs, remove tapping, etc. Frankly, these plates are just too costly to produce + make any semblance of a profit. The plate shown in single quantities from the manufacturer is about USD $500. The price of 120 double lugs? One can expect to add $200 even in large quantities. But the plate price drops quite a bit when a lesser number of radials are used and hole tapping is removed. The purpose of this message is to seek additional input for ideas. I may create a set of files that range in a low-to-high manufacturing price, depending on interest. *Please send any ideas directly to me and not the list.* Finally, we all know that a radial ring can be created using nothing but heavy copper wire. I get it. This is for the person who wants a premium radial plate with lug connections. Thanks. Paul, W9AC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Plate Designs
A different idea than lug connections, is to use load-center style ground bars bolted to the metal plate. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-23-Terminal-Load-Center-Ground-Bar-Kit-PK23GTACP/100129430 I fully agree this is not up to Bellcore grounding standards. But seems much more ham-amenable, especially for those of us who unroll many of our random-gauge radial wires across driveways and lawns on contest weekends and hook up in cold weather - the clamp screws in the ground bars are easily worked with a screwdriver in a gloved hand and accomodate any random-sized-style conductor. Tim N3QE On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Paul Christensen w...@arrl.net wrote: I've long thought about designing a radial plate that addresses some significant limitations with currently available product. Specially, every commercially available radial plate uses single-hole lugs to attach a radial wire to the plate. The problem is that with upwards of 60+ lugs in harms way of accidental contact, single-hole lugs are very susceptible to rotation and loosening. In the link below, you'll see a different kind of radial plate that makes use of double-hole lugs. http://tinyurl.com/pykx44x Around the perimeter of the plate, you'll see 120 paired holes in addition to an extra set of corner lugs for system grounding. This is the type of ground attachment required at Bellcore hardened facilities (now Telcordia). When I was with ATT Broadband Engineering, every ground bond at its fiber optic-hub sites required two-hole lugs to pass compliance testing. Once tightened, the lug cannot spin loose. Over time, the connection maintains much better mechanical and electrical contact with the plate. A typical two-hole lug looks like this: http://www.alliedelec.com/images/products/datasheets/bm/T_B/70092228.pdf Although this plate has pairing for 120 radials, the plate can be scaled down to sizes of 30, 60, and 90 radials. Each hole is tapped for a 1/4 inch bolt - which does not preclude use of an additional nut on the back side of the plate. The center area has mounting for various angled plates to mount saddle brackets, antenna connectors, etc. Before anyone with a related patent takes issue with this, I not making, nor supplying these plates. Rather, the design file(s) will be made available to anyone who may wish to use and modify at-will. The user can select plate thickness, remove the double lugs and replace with single lugs, remove tapping, etc. Frankly, these plates are just too costly to produce + make any semblance of a profit. The plate shown in single quantities from the manufacturer is about USD $500. The price of 120 double lugs? One can expect to add $200 even in large quantities. But the plate price drops quite a bit when a lesser number of radials are used and hole tapping is removed. The purpose of this message is to seek additional input for ideas. I may create a set of files that range in a low-to-high manufacturing price, depending on interest. *Please send any ideas directly to me and not the list.* Finally, we all know that a radial ring can be created using nothing but heavy copper wire. I get it. This is for the person who wants a premium radial plate with lug connections. Thanks. Paul, W9AC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Plate Designs - dual hole compression lugs
Panduit makes these type of lugs too. Some wholesale electric supply houses have them but you want the copper ones, not the aluminum kind. They are both plated and look the same, but the copper ones are noticeably heavier. You need a hydraulic compression tool to install them and the correct die for each lug (dieless crimpers aren't as good). The hydraulic tools show up on eBay for $200+, dies are about $60-100 each. We use these in the telecom industry for grounding and dc power cable. The silicon bronze hardware used to be required. It was used for corrosion resistance and because it doesn't react with battery fumes in power rooms. Stainless hardware is now also acceptable. You should not use galvanized hardware with these lugs except indoors and then it should be grade 5 by code. You use a flat washer on either side and a split lock washer with the nut. Best practice is to use the brown no-ox as a film between the lug and whatever you attach it too. Done this way the connection will last forever. Note that you need one crimp between each set of colored bands on the lug for a proper installation. Check out c-taps and h-taps too. These and cadweld shots are the only right way to do a proper ground system for high currents. All that said, I just solder my own radials :-) I do use the compression lugs and c-taps for my lightning ground ring. At work I always spec these for anything critical (dc plant, ups, generator, etc.). They cost more than mechanical (Allen screw) lugs but they're maintenance free and last forever when installed correctly. If anyone does want to use these be aware that some of the lugs have minor differences in their hole spacings but major price differences. I know from my own experience that the two-hole 750kcmil lug with 1 hole spacing is around $40 each but the same thing with 1.75 spacing is about $17 each. I think the price differences are due to market volume differences but for ham purposes it is worth finding which is the cheapest hole arrangement and then designing around that. NEMA standard spacing is 1.75 for most of the larger lug sizes. -Bill Sent from my iPad On Feb 4, 2015, at 8:48 PM, m.r. mr...@kinderteacher.com wrote: http://ecat.burndy.com/Comergent/burndy/search/YA*FX* this is just the top line manufacturer of compression lugs, the link should take you to the page for dual hole lugs Similar products are available from a number of suppliers. All the major communications hardware suppliers have a variety - Talley, Tessco, SitePro1, to name just a few Be prepared for sticker shock, These are NOT your surplus or swap meet lugs Sitepro probably has them at the lowest price in small (or large ) quantity http://www.sitepro1.com/store/cart.php?m=product_listc=15 this list shows both single and double hole, long and short shank They also have galvanized bolts and nuts - and stainless - to bolt it all together with. Fanatics use silicon bronze bolts, nuts, washers when making a ground system - usually for surge/lightening reduction grounding systems, but they will work just fine for a radial system. Robin WA6CDR - Original Message - From: Gary Smith g...@ka1j.com To: Topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 10:57 Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Plate Designs I've never seen the dual hole lugs but they certainly would stop the attachments from moving. I like the idea. I made my own radial plate from a 18 x 18 x 3/16 SS plate with a square hole cut in the center for a butternut to be placed. I have 20 1/4 holes cut in per side. I used SS bolts, split ring keepers on each side of the plate, washers nuts. I used Penatrox on both sides of the plate inbetwixt all connections. For solder to the radials I used non-lead plumbing solder and assembled this 4 or 5 years ago. It rests on a bog on a salt water marsh, one that was under salt water thanks to Hurricane Sandy (My Ameritron RCS-8V used to select which antenna wire to use was just barely above the water and spared damage). This fall I went down to check the connections and remove the debris that accumulates on the plate, it was totally covered by dirt and organic material. In these rather harsh conditions I can say there was no visible oxidation whatsoever on the solder, had I used lead, it would have been significant. The 60 or so 130' radials were firmly attached albeit several nuts did turn a bit as I tightened them down. The Penetrox was still obviously present and the only sign of damage was oxidation to the exposed copper braids at the end of all coax leading to the 5 different antenna. I replaced the coax and all is good for another year. How I get my wires over the trees you can see at the bottom of my QRZ page. In summary; - In Salt Marsh/Salt water conditions SS plate is ideal as long as the hardware also is SS. - Leadless plumbing solder is an excellent choice
