Re: Topband: The Remote question
Some consider DXCC a competition and want a level playing field. Some consider DXCC a personal goal and don't care what others are doing. 73..de John/K4WJ On 7/12/2015 8:20 PM, Cecil wrote: Well for one thing your $100,000 station doesn't magically appear anywhere in the country just by selecting a new location on the computer screen because where it's located at the moment ain't getting the job donebig difference! I don't have any problem with remote ham radio for general ham radio activities...want to get on the air and rag chew, operate to keep up with your buddies from the nursing home, run a net from your condo...great...knock yourself out...I don't think any one who takes issue with Remote Ham Radio and systems like it would have any problems with that use of it at all... I object as many do to bringing it into the competitive aspects of the hobby and expecting to compete against it with a traditional Amateur Station implementationand I have no issue with that if its use is placed in its own class. Nuff said Mike...I'm clear.. Cecil K5DL _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
Ken, I hear what you are trying to convey but there is a fly in the ointment. I am not trying to impress anyone else. For me it is and always has been a personal achievement. No one here is concerned with diminishing their abilities to impress others as you have stated. These issues you call them are the criteria and boundaries needed to achieve the DXCC awards. The perception that the awards are not being watered down is in your head Ken. That is what this discussion is all about. The concern we all feel is that the DXCC awards are becoming awards with no criteria and boundaries anymore, so what value will they be ? Would it not be plausible to create additional DXCC award categories to accommodate technology advances like our current RHR capabilities ? Bob K6UJ On Jul 12, 2015, at 12:16 PM, W0MU w...@w0mu.com wrote: I think much of the issue with RHR is people are bent out of shape that a group of people have jumped on this and appear to be doing quite well. Business must be booming as they are adding new stations constantly. Personally I have a decent station and am not interested in renting station time. In the end the challenge is personal. The award is whatever you make it. DXCC is DXCC. If you feel better that you worked it from the same location using wet noodles more power to you. If you are chasing DX to impress other people I think you are doing it wrong. When you focus on yourself and what you are doing then these little issues become non issues. My Dad told me a long time ago in business was to quit paying so much about the other guy and start focusing on my business and what my strength were. I have been a ham since 1978. Honor roll number 1 mean very little to me. What it says is that you have either been doing this longer than me, spend more time on the radio, have a better setup, etc. It doesn't mean that you are a better DXer. I hear so called big DXers in pileups calling endlessly with no clue about how pileups work etc. Lots of great DXers are in and out of a pileup before you know it. Many of those guys may or may not have DXCC. I waited for over 20 years to apply for DXCC and the award is still in the tube.. Be proud of yourself and what you have done. The watering down of the award is in your head. On 7/12/2015 7:32 AM, n...@comcast.net wrote: Good morning. I have followed with interest the discussion on this subject. I enjoyed hearing both sides of the issue from my fellow DXers. Most of the replies have been both thoughtful and respectful and I thank you for that. I thought you may find it interesting to hear a comment from the perspective of an RHR user. Perhaps some of the others who comment also used that service (which seems to have triggered this debate) but I don't remember seeing that. I have been an RHR customer for two years. I have been a DXer for the entire 42 years of my amateur career. Climbing the DX Challenge ladder is my principal goal. I have a home station focused on 6, 80 and 160. 93.5% of the entities I need for the Challenge are on these three bands. I have a full sized quarter wave vertical for 160 (and 8 560 ' beverages), a 4 square for 80 and a 9 element M2 at 80' for 6. The station works well and has been productive. But as you know from 160 propagation is finicky. And for those who have not spent time on 6, it is even more so there. I rent the RHR stations because they give me more opportunities to work new ones for the Challenge. It is simply another tool I use to accomplish my goal. And unless the DXCC ru l es change I will continue to do so. I appreciate, and respect, those who feel this somehow violates the spirit of the DXCC program. I simply do not agree. Ham radio has always had a prickly relationship with technology. On one hand we love the cool gadgets and the hobby would die without them. On the other, it forces us to deal with change. Anyone remember the debate about using packet clusters to work DX? Shooting fish in a barrel was a common criticism of those who used that technology. Remember when there was a move to ban from DXCC credit qsos made on a list? I suspect remote technology is here to stay; the ARRL BOD has already spoken once on that matter and were quite clear. What I would suggest is view this technology as simply a tool; available to all willing to pay the fee (just like our expensive radios, antennas, amps, etc.) . Use it or don't use it. The choice is yours. Best, Steve, NN4T _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote Question..
Amen. On 2015-07-12 16:28, Dave Heil wrote: Bill, There was no competition among those who walked to school, no matter what the distance. There were no awards, annual listings, pins, certificates, plaques or such. The internet is akin to telephones and cable television more than to amateur radio. If you're making your way to Topband DXCC with stations on both coasts and receivers/antennas on various continents, you are not operating in the spirit of the awards. 73, Dave Heil K8MN On 7/12/2015 3:00 PM, Bill Cromwell wrote: Hi Mike, There really is a difference among all the people who walked to school and back every school day for 12 years or so. Some of them lived across the street and others lived ten miles away, uphill both ways evil grin. I do see that somebody who did all of a DX challenge from their home location has more bragging rights than somebody who did parts of it over the internet. This message was done in part with the internet. Doing it all by radio would be *more* fun. 73, Bill KU8H _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
I think setting up your personal station at home for remote is OK as it is your station equipment and your antennas. Commercialized RHR is a whole different ball game to me. To me it is a business and for every station receiving money for the use of such stations RHR needs to report that income to the IRS in a 1099 form regardless. Hence I no longer see it as Amateur radio which is service not for hire. Rich K7ZV On Sun, July 12, 2015 8:41 pm, WW3S wrote: is there a length limit on microphone cords, or key cords? Because for several remote stations, thats what you are talking about.Iâm currently in Leesburg VA, over 300 miles from home.but I still operated MY station on and off this weekend, with MY antennas, MY power supplies, MY technology and MY sweat equity in putting it all together.while I didnt work any 160, or any new DXCC entities, so what if I did? Its still my primary station location, with the same antennas I use everyday, and the same transceiver to generate and receive RFonly difference is my mic and headset cable is about 340 miles long. 73, Jamie WW3S On 7/12/2015 8:56:26 PM, Hardy Landskov (n...@cox.net) wrote: Why don't we have the drivers of the Indy 500 operate their cars with joysticks in the stands or somewhere far, far away? Same thing as remote, right? This is not my radio My 2 cents. 73 Hardy N7RT -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 5:20 PM To: W0MU Cc: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: The Remote question Well for one thing your $100,000 station doesn't magically appear anywhere in the country just by selecting a new location on the computer screen because where it's located at the moment ain't getting the job donebig difference! I don't have any problem with remote ham radio for general ham radio activities...want to get on the air and rag chew, operate to keep up with your buddies from the nursing home, run a net from your condo...great...knock yourself out...I don't think any one who takes issue with Remote Ham Radio and systems like it would have any problems with that use of it at all... I object as many do to bringing it into the competitive aspects of the hobby and expecting to compete against it with a traditional Amateur Station implementationand I have no issue with that if its use is _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband Rich K7ZV rich_k...@gphilltop.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
I think much of the issue with RHR is people are bent out of shape that a group of people have jumped on this and appear to be doing quite well. Business must be booming as they are adding new stations constantly. Personally I have a decent station and am not interested in renting station time. In the end the challenge is personal. The award is whatever you make it. DXCC is DXCC. If you feel better that you worked it from the same location using wet noodles more power to you. If you are chasing DX to impress other people I think you are doing it wrong. When you focus on yourself and what you are doing then these little issues become non issues. My Dad told me a long time ago in business was to quit paying so much about the other guy and start focusing on my business and what my strength were. I have been a ham since 1978. Honor roll number 1 mean very little to me. What it says is that you have either been doing this longer than me, spend more time on the radio, have a better setup, etc. It doesn't mean that you are a better DXer. I hear so called big DXers in pileups calling endlessly with no clue about how pileups work etc. Lots of great DXers are in and out of a pileup before you know it. Many of those guys may or may not have DXCC. I waited for over 20 years to apply for DXCC and the award is still in the tube.. Be proud of yourself and what you have done. The watering down of the award is in your head. On 7/12/2015 7:32 AM, n...@comcast.net wrote: Good morning. I have followed with interest the discussion on this subject. I enjoyed hearing both sides of the issue from my fellow DXers. Most of the replies have been both thoughtful and respectful and I thank you for that. I thought you may find it interesting to hear a comment from the perspective of an RHR user. Perhaps some of the others who comment also used that service (which seems to have triggered this debate) but I don't remember seeing that. I have been an RHR customer for two years. I have been a DXer for the entire 42 years of my amateur career. Climbing the DX Challenge ladder is my principal goal. I have a home station focused on 6, 80 and 160. 93.5% of the entities I need for the Challenge are on these three bands. I have a full sized quarter wave vertical for 160 (and 8 560 ' beverages), a 4 square for 80 and a 9 element M2 at 80' for 6. The station works well and has been productive. But as you know from 160 propagation is finicky. And for those who have not spent time on 6, it is even more so there. I rent the RHR stations because they give me more opportunities to work new ones for the Challenge. It is simply another tool I use to accomplish my goal. And unless the DXCC rul es change I will continue to do so. I appreciate, and respect, those who feel this somehow violates the spirit of the DXCC program. I simply do not agree. Ham radio has always had a prickly relationship with technology. On one hand we love the cool gadgets and the hobby would die without them. On the other, it forces us to deal with change. Anyone remember the debate about using packet clusters to work DX? Shooting fish in a barrel was a common criticism of those who used that technology. Remember when there was a move to ban from DXCC credit qsos made on a list? I suspect remote technology is here to stay; the ARRL BOD has already spoken once on that matter and were quite clear. What I would suggest is view this technology as simply a tool; available to all willing to pay the fee (just like our expensive radios, antennas, amps, etc.) . Use it or don't use it. The choice is yours. Best, Steve, NN4T _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
It's obvious the DXCC award system is not important to you by your own admission, which doesn't put you in the best of positions to be so vocal about paid/shared remote station access and its impact on the award systems. Call it what you will it's very competitive...in an individualized sort of way but competitive it is. It is a badge of honor for those passionate about such things. Yes the guy with the $100,000 station most days has an advantage over the guy with 100 Watts and a wire...but some days the propagation Gods shine on the guy with 100 Watts and he beats the big bucks station out..also operator skill levels that playing field as well...you learn those things when that's all you have for a station. Yes we have always faced those kind of challenges and no rule or class changes were really needed. It was incentive to make your station the best it could be within your means and to improve your operating skills. For contesters things were a bit better as the differences in station capability was recognized and different competitive classes were formedso the guy with 100 Watts and a wire could feel a sense of accomplishment by competing with guys generally equipped like him. In today's world where one could finally move into that swanky neighborhood that the wife has always wanted to live but couldn't because hubby needed space and acceptance to put up all those ugly wires, towers, antennas and suchno worries! (That's my wife...and we still don't live there) We can pick up a radio front panel for a song and a smokin internet connection and just dial up whatever superstation has propagation to where the DX is today and bag em. Just think about being able to get in on that E skip action anytime it happens just by dialing up a station that is in the skip zone today...and 160 DXCC...just dial around until you find a station that can hear that rare DX station that's on tonight. The wall paper is piling up... What's a traditional station OP to do...he's been working hard for years, building new antennas, buying commercial products and improving his station whenever he can, staying up late nights or getting up early mornings. An expected normal progression for Ham Radiohe is close to finishing his DXCC on 160 and a guy that don't even own a station...or worse owns a small station but doesn't use it to work the hard ones, lands his first 100 on 160 in his first year of being on the air. He throws up his hands and says what's the point...and certainly won't be buying any more commercial products to try and improve his stationand out of business go more of the commercial equipment makers. Now... I don't have a problem with technology and its advancement...I'm a technical guy. But the advantages that paid or even shared remote station access allows should dictate that these OPs compete in their own class with others that are leveraging that advantage. The exception to this is the guy that has built his station on a remote site on land he owns or leases for that purpose because he has noise issues he can't overcome or he lives in the subdivision with an HOA that won't allow his antennas, but he still wants to compete on the bands...that remote station is his primary station...it's just a traditional station accessed remotely by its owner...no problemgood use of today's technology. You own property on three different coasts and one remote island and have stations on all of themthe new DXCC/Contesting class is ready made for you too... I think new class structure language in the DXCC and various contest rules is the only viable answer... Don't limit technology, adapt to it to allow its advancement but as it evolves allow the traditional station owner to continue to practice his kind of Ham Radio on a traditional playing fieldfact is probably 90 percent of stations are traditional styled operations anyway. Soap box mode OFF... Cecil K5DL Sent using recycled electrons. On Jul 12, 2015, at 2:16 PM, W0MU w...@w0mu.com wrote: I think much of the issue with RHR is people are bent out of shape that a group of people have jumped on this and appear to be doing quite well. Business must be booming as they are adding new stations constantly. Personally I have a decent station and am not interested in renting station time. In the end the challenge is personal. The award is whatever you make it. DXCC is DXCC. If you feel better that you worked it from the same location using wet noodles more power to you. If you are chasing DX to impress other people I think you are doing it wrong. When you focus on yourself and what you are doing then these little issues become non issues. My Dad told me a long time ago in business was to quit paying so much about the other guy and start focusing on my business and what my strength were. I have been a ham since 1978. Honor roll number 1 mean very little to
Re: Topband: The Remote question
Well said Dave! On 7/12/2015 10:49 AM, Dave AA6YQ wrote: The reaction of the DXing community to new technology over the years has been extremely interesting to observe. Some ops are early adopters, applying every bleeding-edge technology available that isn't explicitly prohibited by the rules. At the other extreme are ops who effectively camp on the technology available at the time they became DXers, and argue that any use of subsequently-developed new technology would diminish the value of DXCC awards. Vigorous (and sometimes nasty) debates across this spectrum are as old as DXing, and will likely never end. The ARRL is in the unenviable position of having to keep the DXCC program attractive in the face of relentless technical change and the broad range of DXer attitudes described above. To make things more interesting, they are human, and thus occasionally make mistakes. It is the nature of DXing award programs that some mistakes cannot be corrected, at least not until time machines become available. At the root of all of this is our nature to compete. If DXCC were purely a set of personal achievement awards, then each op would choose his or her technology ground rules, and sally forth accordingly. Some DXers do just that. However, http://www.arrl.org/dxcc-standings isn't entitled DXCC Standings for no reason. Some of us compete, and compete hard, fueling demands for a level playing field. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that competitive DXers will never be happy. Someone else will always have an unfair advantage, because short of requiring *all* DXers to live within the same flat 200 km circle and use identical rigs/ants/apps, the DXCC playing field can never be leveled. My advice? Don't suffer in silence, convey constructive suggestions to your ARRL representatives. But when the DXCC rules change or don't change, recognize that you are one of a large, diverse community that cannot possibly all be simultaneously pleased. DX Is! 73, Dave, AA6YQ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
Why don't we have the drivers of the Indy 500 operate their cars with joysticks in the stands or somewhere far, far away? Same thing as remote, right? This is not my radio My 2 cents. 73 Hardy N7RT -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 5:20 PM To: W0MU Cc: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: The Remote question Well for one thing your $100,000 station doesn't magically appear anywhere in the country just by selecting a new location on the computer screen because where it's located at the moment ain't getting the job donebig difference! I don't have any problem with remote ham radio for general ham radio activities...want to get on the air and rag chew, operate to keep up with your buddies from the nursing home, run a net from your condo...great...knock yourself out...I don't think any one who takes issue with Remote Ham Radio and systems like it would have any problems with that use of it at all... I object as many do to bringing it into the competitive aspects of the hobby and expecting to compete against it with a traditional Amateur Station implementationand I have no issue with that if its use is placed in its own class. Nuff said Mike...I'm clear.. Cecil K5DL Sent using recycled electrons. On Jul 12, 2015, at 5:56 PM, W0MU w...@w0mu.com wrote: So what is the difference if I build a station for $100,000 or I rent one for whatever it costs? Nothing. I guess the guy that can't climb towers who has to pay someone else to climb it and fix his stuff should be shoved into another category too? I must have missed what is the big prize for #1 Honor roll? A plaque? I hope that you feel good about yourself because of other things not because you managed to work them all. As I said before #1 has been at it longer, has better stuff and plays radio more and probably is located in a better location. CQ has a competition every year and I get that. It starts over every year and it is a rush to work as many as you can. Once again the winners will have great stations and tons of time. Congrats to the winners. I think Honor Roll #1 means much more to you that have decided to make this a strange competition that really doesn't have a start date or and end, then it does the majority of active hams. Bitch all you like about Remote Radio it is here to stay just like packet and the ARRL is certainly not going to exclude anyone. I could care less who is or is not using Remote radio. I hope more people do as we could use more activity on the bands. I would love to see old timers and most of the ham population are old timers now be able to operate from nursing homes, condo's, rv's etc. I guess you would rather them be shoved to the streets and ignored. What you are asking for is less competition in your competition which is a bit hypocritical isn't it? Removing players from the DXCC field waters down your victory doesn't it? Why would the rules change now after remotes being allowed for 50 years? Paying for a service is not even relevant to the conversation so lets not make it one.How I get on the air is really none of your business. On 7/12/2015 2:47 PM, Cecil wrote: It's obvious the DXCC award system is not important to you by your own admission, which doesn't put you in the best of positions to be so vocal about paid/shared remote station access and its impact on the award systems. Call it what you will it's very competitive...in an individualized sort of way but competitive it is. It is a badge of honor for those passionate about such things. Yes the guy with the $100,000 station most days has an advantage over the guy with 100 Watts and a wire...but some days the propagation Gods shine on the guy with 100 Watts and he beats the big bucks station out..also operator skill levels that playing field as well...you learn those things when that's all you have for a station. Yes we have always faced those kind of challenges and no rule or class changes were really needed. It was incentive to make your station the best it could be within your means and to improve your operating skills. For contesters things were a bit better as the differences in station capability was recognized and different competitive classes were formedso the guy with 100 Watts and a wire could feel a sense of accomplishment by competing with guys generally equipped like him. In today's world where one could finally move into that swanky neighborhood that the wife has always wanted to live but couldn't because hubby needed space and acceptance to put up all those ugly wires, towers, antennas and suchno worries! (That's my wife...and we still don't live there) We can pick up a radio front panel for a song and a smokin internet connection and just dial up whatever superstation has propagation to where the DX is today and bag em. Just think about being able
Topband: The Remote Question
I consider it another form of cheating. Regardless of what the ARRL says. Since when has the ARRL - DXCC been a bastion of ethics? IMO ARRL ethics is an oxymoron. Without inserting politics into the discussion, all one has to do is look at what is going in the world around us and it is clear the ARRL has fallen into the same game plan. Me, me, me and mini me. What amazes me is all these 'cheaters' or 'cheater cheerleaders' voluntarily admitting to cheating. The contest committees need to study this effect to get contest cheaters to admit to cheating on their own volition. Doug Generation of idiots - smart phones and dumb people. -Original Message- Original message I just did a quick perusal of the current DXCC rules. If I understand them correctly: 1. Another ham can operate my station, using my call, and the contacts count towards my DXCC. 2. I can go to his station, sign my call, and the contacts count towards my DXCC. So...the station doesn't matter and the operator doesn't matter. What the heck matters anymore? 73, Roger --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote Question
Remote stations should be operated in the assisted class during contests.. As far as DXCC, how about an endorsement for all stations who earned it using only their local station? My $0.02 Art NK8X ᐧ On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 9:03 PM, Doug Renwick ve...@sasktel.net wrote: I consider it another form of cheating. Regardless of what the ARRL says. Since when has the ARRL - DXCC been a bastion of ethics? IMO ARRL ethics is an oxymoron. Without inserting politics into the discussion, all one has to do is look at what is going in the world around us and it is clear the ARRL has fallen into the same game plan. Me, me, me and mini me. What amazes me is all these 'cheaters' or 'cheater cheerleaders' voluntarily admitting to cheating. The contest committees need to study this effect to get contest cheaters to admit to cheating on their own volition. Doug Generation of idiots - smart phones and dumb people. -Original Message- Original message I just did a quick perusal of the current DXCC rules. If I understand them correctly: 1. Another ham can operate my station, using my call, and the contacts count towards my DXCC. 2. I can go to his station, sign my call, and the contacts count towards my DXCC. So...the station doesn't matter and the operator doesn't matter. What the heck matters anymore? 73, Roger --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
All I can say is working the P5 was awesome to me for the last one. The pileups were horrendous, the postage bills too much, but I loved every minute through the years. And I did love the plaque. I did this to see what I could do, not to compete with someone else. Some think it's a waste of time but I learned more about antennas, RF, amplifiers, etc that really made me succeed in my job. I question what you accomplish by playing golf--with green fees being what they are? But we all have are wants and desires. Just my outlook on the whole thing. 73 N7RT -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of W0MU Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 3:57 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: The Remote question So what is the difference if I build a station for $100,000 or I rent one for whatever it costs? Nothing. I guess the guy that can't climb towers who has to pay someone else to climb it and fix his stuff should be shoved into another category too? I must have missed what is the big prize for #1 Honor roll? A plaque? I hope that you feel good about yourself because of other things not because you managed to work them all. As I said before #1 has been at it longer, has better stuff and plays radio more and probably is located in a better location. CQ has a competition every year and I get that. It starts over every year and it is a rush to work as many as you can. Once again the winners will have great stations and tons of time. Congrats to the winners. I think Honor Roll #1 means much more to you that have decided to make this a strange competition that really doesn't have a start date or and end, then it does the majority of active hams. Bitch all you like about Remote Radio it is here to stay just like packet and the ARRL is certainly not going to exclude anyone. I could care less who is or is not using Remote radio. I hope more people do as we could use more activity on the bands. I would love to see old timers and most of the ham population are old timers now be able to operate from nursing homes, condo's, rv's etc. I guess you would rather them be shoved to the streets and ignored. What you are asking for is less competition in your competition which is a bit hypocritical isn't it? Removing players from the DXCC field waters down your victory doesn't it? Why would the rules change now after remotes being allowed for 50 years? Paying for a service is not even relevant to the conversation so lets not make it one.How I get on the air is really none of your business. On 7/12/2015 2:47 PM, Cecil wrote: It's obvious the DXCC award system is not important to you by your own admission, which doesn't put you in the best of positions to be so vocal about paid/shared remote station access and its impact on the award systems. Call it what you will it's very competitive...in an individualized sort of way but competitive it is. It is a badge of honor for those passionate about such things. Yes the guy with the $100,000 station most days has an advantage over the guy with 100 Watts and a wire...but some days the propagation Gods shine on the guy with 100 Watts and he beats the big bucks station out..also operator skill levels that playing field as well...you learn those things when that's all you have for a station. Yes we have always faced those kind of challenges and no rule or class changes were really needed. It was incentive to make your station the best it could be within your means and to improve your operating skills. For contesters things were a bit better as the differences in station capability was recognized and different competitive classes were formedso the guy with 100 Watts and a wire could feel a sense of accomplishment by competing with guys generally equipped like him. In today's world where one could finally move into that swanky neighborhood that the wife has always wanted to live but couldn't because hubby needed space and acceptance to put up all those ugly wires, towers, antennas and suchno worries! (That's my wife...and we still don't live there) We can pick up a radio front panel for a song and a smokin internet connection and just dial up whatever superstation has propagation to where the DX is today and bag em. Just think about being able to get in on that E skip action anytime it happens just by dialing up a station that is in the skip zone today...and 160 DXCC...just dial around until you find a station that can hear that rare DX station that's on tonight. The wall paper is piling up... What's a traditional station OP to do...he's been working hard for years, building new antennas, buying commercial products and improving his station whenever he can, staying up late nights or getting up early mornings. An expected normal progression for Ham Radiohe is close to finishing his DXCC on 160 and a guy that don't even own a station...or worse owns a small station but doesn't use
Re: Topband: The Remote question
is there a length limit on microphone cords, or key cords? Because for several remote stations, thats what you are talking about.I’m currently in Leesburg VA, over 300 miles from home.but I still operated MY station on and off this weekend, with MY antennas, MY power supplies, MY technology and MY sweat equity in putting it all together.while I didnt work any 160, or any new DXCC entities, so what if I did? Its still my primary station location, with the same antennas I use everyday, and the same transceiver to generate and receive RFonly difference is my mic and headset cable is about 340 miles long. 73, Jamie WW3S On 7/12/2015 8:56:26 PM, Hardy Landskov (n...@cox.net) wrote: Why don't we have the drivers of the Indy 500 operate their cars with joysticks in the stands or somewhere far, far away? Same thing as remote, right? This is not my radio My 2 cents. 73 Hardy N7RT -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 5:20 PM To: W0MU Cc: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: The Remote question Well for one thing your $100,000 station doesn't magically appear anywhere in the country just by selecting a new location on the computer screen because where it's located at the moment ain't getting the job donebig difference! I don't have any problem with remote ham radio for general ham radio activities...want to get on the air and rag chew, operate to keep up with your buddies from the nursing home, run a net from your condo...great...knock yourself out...I don't think any one who takes issue with Remote Ham Radio and systems like it would have any problems with that use of it at all... I object as many do to bringing it into the competitive aspects of the hobby and expecting to compete against it with a traditional Amateur Station implementationand I have no issue with that if its use is _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
No issue with that...remote operation of your primary station...I don't see any difference between that and local operation of the same station...even if you had worked some DX...great use of the technology. Cecil K5DL Sent using recycled electrons. On Jul 12, 2015, at 8:41 PM, WW3S w...@zoominternet.net wrote: is there a length limit on microphone cords, or key cords? Because for several remote stations, thats what you are talking about.I’m currently in Leesburg VA, over 300 miles from home.but I still operated MY station on and off this weekend, with MY antennas, MY power supplies, MY technology and MY sweat equity in putting it all together.while I didnt work any 160, or any new DXCC entities, so what if I did? Its still my primary station location, with the same antennas I use everyday, and the same transceiver to generate and receive RFonly difference is my mic and headset cable is about 340 miles long. 73, Jamie WW3S On 7/12/2015 8:56:26 PM, Hardy Landskov (n...@cox.net) wrote: Why don't we have the drivers of the Indy 500 operate their cars with joysticks in the stands or somewhere far, far away? Same thing as remote, right? This is not my radio My 2 cents. 73 Hardy N7RT -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 5:20 PM To: W0MU Cc: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: The Remote question Well for one thing your $100,000 station doesn't magically appear anywhere in the country just by selecting a new location on the computer screen because where it's located at the moment ain't getting the job donebig difference! I don't have any problem with remote ham radio for general ham radio activities...want to get on the air and rag chew, operate to keep up with your buddies from the nursing home, run a net from your condo...great...knock yourself out...I don't think any one who takes issue with Remote Ham Radio and systems like it would have any problems with that use of it at all... I object as many do to bringing it into the competitive aspects of the hobby and expecting to compete against it with a traditional Amateur Station implementationand I have no issue with that if its use is _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
So what is the difference if I build a station for $100,000 or I rent one for whatever it costs? Nothing. I guess the guy that can't climb towers who has to pay someone else to climb it and fix his stuff should be shoved into another category too? I must have missed what is the big prize for #1 Honor roll? A plaque? I hope that you feel good about yourself because of other things not because you managed to work them all. As I said before #1 has been at it longer, has better stuff and plays radio more and probably is located in a better location. CQ has a competition every year and I get that. It starts over every year and it is a rush to work as many as you can. Once again the winners will have great stations and tons of time. Congrats to the winners. I think Honor Roll #1 means much more to you that have decided to make this a strange competition that really doesn't have a start date or and end, then it does the majority of active hams. Bitch all you like about Remote Radio it is here to stay just like packet and the ARRL is certainly not going to exclude anyone. I could care less who is or is not using Remote radio. I hope more people do as we could use more activity on the bands. I would love to see old timers and most of the ham population are old timers now be able to operate from nursing homes, condo's, rv's etc. I guess you would rather them be shoved to the streets and ignored. What you are asking for is less competition in your competition which is a bit hypocritical isn't it? Removing players from the DXCC field waters down your victory doesn't it? Why would the rules change now after remotes being allowed for 50 years? Paying for a service is not even relevant to the conversation so lets not make it one.How I get on the air is really none of your business. On 7/12/2015 2:47 PM, Cecil wrote: It's obvious the DXCC award system is not important to you by your own admission, which doesn't put you in the best of positions to be so vocal about paid/shared remote station access and its impact on the award systems. Call it what you will it's very competitive...in an individualized sort of way but competitive it is. It is a badge of honor for those passionate about such things. Yes the guy with the $100,000 station most days has an advantage over the guy with 100 Watts and a wire...but some days the propagation Gods shine on the guy with 100 Watts and he beats the big bucks station out..also operator skill levels that playing field as well...you learn those things when that's all you have for a station. Yes we have always faced those kind of challenges and no rule or class changes were really needed. It was incentive to make your station the best it could be within your means and to improve your operating skills. For contesters things were a bit better as the differences in station capability was recognized and different competitive classes were formedso the guy with 100 Watts and a wire could feel a sense of accomplishment by competing with guys generally equipped like him. In today's world where one could finally move into that swanky neighborhood that the wife has always wanted to live but couldn't because hubby needed space and acceptance to put up all those ugly wires, towers, antennas and suchno worries! (That's my wife...and we still don't live there) We can pick up a radio front panel for a song and a smokin internet connection and just dial up whatever superstation has propagation to where the DX is today and bag em. Just think about being able to get in on that E skip action anytime it happens just by dialing up a station that is in the skip zone today...and 160 DXCC...just dial around until you find a station that can hear that rare DX station that's on tonight. The wall paper is piling up... What's a traditional station OP to do...he's been working hard for years, building new antennas, buying commercial products and improving his station whenever he can, staying up late nights or getting up early mornings. An expected normal progression for Ham Radiohe is close to finishing his DXCC on 160 and a guy that don't even own a station...or worse owns a small station but doesn't use it to work the hard ones, lands his first 100 on 160 in his first year of being on the air. He throws up his hands and says what's the point...and certainly won't be buying any more commercial products to try and improve his stationand out of business go more of the commercial equipment makers. Now... I don't have a problem with technology and its advancement...I'm a technical guy. But the advantages that paid or even shared remote station access allows should dictate that these OPs compete in their own class with others that are leveraging that advantage. The exception to this is the guy that has built his station on a remote site on land he owns or leases for that purpose because he has noise
Re: Topband: The Remote question
Well for one thing your $100,000 station doesn't magically appear anywhere in the country just by selecting a new location on the computer screen because where it's located at the moment ain't getting the job donebig difference! I don't have any problem with remote ham radio for general ham radio activities...want to get on the air and rag chew, operate to keep up with your buddies from the nursing home, run a net from your condo...great...knock yourself out...I don't think any one who takes issue with Remote Ham Radio and systems like it would have any problems with that use of it at all... I object as many do to bringing it into the competitive aspects of the hobby and expecting to compete against it with a traditional Amateur Station implementationand I have no issue with that if its use is placed in its own class. Nuff said Mike...I'm clear.. Cecil K5DL Sent using recycled electrons. On Jul 12, 2015, at 5:56 PM, W0MU w...@w0mu.com wrote: So what is the difference if I build a station for $100,000 or I rent one for whatever it costs? Nothing. I guess the guy that can't climb towers who has to pay someone else to climb it and fix his stuff should be shoved into another category too? I must have missed what is the big prize for #1 Honor roll? A plaque? I hope that you feel good about yourself because of other things not because you managed to work them all. As I said before #1 has been at it longer, has better stuff and plays radio more and probably is located in a better location. CQ has a competition every year and I get that. It starts over every year and it is a rush to work as many as you can. Once again the winners will have great stations and tons of time. Congrats to the winners. I think Honor Roll #1 means much more to you that have decided to make this a strange competition that really doesn't have a start date or and end, then it does the majority of active hams. Bitch all you like about Remote Radio it is here to stay just like packet and the ARRL is certainly not going to exclude anyone. I could care less who is or is not using Remote radio. I hope more people do as we could use more activity on the bands. I would love to see old timers and most of the ham population are old timers now be able to operate from nursing homes, condo's, rv's etc. I guess you would rather them be shoved to the streets and ignored. What you are asking for is less competition in your competition which is a bit hypocritical isn't it? Removing players from the DXCC field waters down your victory doesn't it? Why would the rules change now after remotes being allowed for 50 years? Paying for a service is not even relevant to the conversation so lets not make it one.How I get on the air is really none of your business. On 7/12/2015 2:47 PM, Cecil wrote: It's obvious the DXCC award system is not important to you by your own admission, which doesn't put you in the best of positions to be so vocal about paid/shared remote station access and its impact on the award systems. Call it what you will it's very competitive...in an individualized sort of way but competitive it is. It is a badge of honor for those passionate about such things. Yes the guy with the $100,000 station most days has an advantage over the guy with 100 Watts and a wire...but some days the propagation Gods shine on the guy with 100 Watts and he beats the big bucks station out..also operator skill levels that playing field as well...you learn those things when that's all you have for a station. Yes we have always faced those kind of challenges and no rule or class changes were really needed. It was incentive to make your station the best it could be within your means and to improve your operating skills. For contesters things were a bit better as the differences in station capability was recognized and different competitive classes were formedso the guy with 100 Watts and a wire could feel a sense of accomplishment by competing with guys generally equipped like him. In today's world where one could finally move into that swanky neighborhood that the wife has always wanted to live but couldn't because hubby needed space and acceptance to put up all those ugly wires, towers, antennas and suchno worries! (That's my wife...and we still don't live there) We can pick up a radio front panel for a song and a smokin internet connection and just dial up whatever superstation has propagation to where the DX is today and bag em. Just think about being able to get in on that E skip action anytime it happens just by dialing up a station that is in the skip zone today...and 160 DXCC...just dial around until you find a station that can hear that rare DX station that's on tonight. The wall paper is piling up... What's a traditional station OP to do...he's been working hard for years,
Re: Topband: The Remote Question..
Bill, There was no competition among those who walked to school, no matter what the distance. There were no awards, annual listings, pins, certificates, plaques or such. The internet is akin to telephones and cable television more than to amateur radio. If you're making your way to Topband DXCC with stations on both coasts and receivers/antennas on various continents, you are not operating in the spirit of the awards. 73, Dave Heil K8MN On 7/12/2015 3:00 PM, Bill Cromwell wrote: Hi Mike, There really is a difference among all the people who walked to school and back every school day for 12 years or so. Some of them lived across the street and others lived ten miles away, uphill both ways evil grin. I do see that somebody who did all of a DX challenge from their home location has more bragging rights than somebody who did parts of it over the internet. This message was done in part with the internet. Doing it all by radio would be *more* fun. 73, Bill KU8H _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
So much for civility. -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of W0MU Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 5:57 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: The Remote question So what is the difference if I build a station for $100,000 or I rent one for whatever it costs? Nothing. I guess the guy that can't climb towers who has to pay someone else to climb it and fix his stuff should be shoved into another category too? I must have missed what is the big prize for #1 Honor roll? A plaque? I hope that you feel good about yourself because of other things not because you managed to work them all. As I said before #1 has been at it longer, has better stuff and plays radio more and probably is located in a better location. CQ has a competition every year and I get that. It starts over every year and it is a rush to work as many as you can. Once again the winners will have great stations and tons of time. Congrats to the winners. I think Honor Roll #1 means much more to you that have decided to make this a strange competition that really doesn't have a start date or and end, then it does the majority of active hams. Bitch all you like about Remote Radio it is here to stay just like packet and the ARRL is certainly not going to exclude anyone. I could care less who is or is not using Remote radio. I hope more people do as we could use more activity on the bands. I would love to see old timers and most of the ham population are old timers now be able to operate from nursing homes, condo's, rv's etc. I guess you would rather them be shoved to the streets and ignored. What you are asking for is less competition in your competition which is a bit hypocritical isn't it? Removing players from the DXCC field waters down your victory doesn't it? Why would the rules change now after remotes being allowed for 50 years? Paying for a service is not even relevant to the conversation so lets not make it one.How I get on the air is really none of your business. On 7/12/2015 2:47 PM, Cecil wrote: It's obvious the DXCC award system is not important to you by your own admission, which doesn't put you in the best of positions to be so vocal about paid/shared remote station access and its impact on the award systems. Call it what you will it's very competitive...in an individualized sort of way but competitive it is. It is a badge of honor for those passionate about such things. Yes the guy with the $100,000 station most days has an advantage over the guy with 100 Watts and a wire...but some days the propagation Gods shine on the guy with 100 Watts and he beats the big bucks station out..also operator skill levels that playing field as well...you learn those things when that's all you have for a station. Yes we have always faced those kind of challenges and no rule or class changes were really needed. It was incentive to make your station the best it could be within your means and to improve your operating skills. For contesters things were a bit better as the differences in station capability was recognized and different competitive classes were formedso the guy with 100 Watts and a wire could feel a sense of accomplishment by competing with guys generally equipped like him. In today's world where one could finally move into that swanky neighborhood that the wife has always wanted to live but couldn't because hubby needed space and acceptance to put up all those ugly wires, towers, antennas and suchno worries! (That's my wife...and we still don't live there) We can pick up a radio front panel for a song and a smokin internet connection and just dial up whatever superstation has propagation to where the DX is today and bag em. Just think about being able to get in on that E skip action anytime it happens just by dialing up a station that is in the skip zone today...and 160 DXCC...just dial around until you find a station that can hear that rare DX station that's on tonight. The wall paper is piling up... What's a traditional station OP to do...he's been working hard for years, building new antennas, buying commercial products and improving his station whenever he can, staying up late nights or getting up early mornings. An expected normal progression for Ham Radiohe is close to finishing his DXCC on 160 and a guy that don't even own a station...or worse owns a small station but doesn't use it to work the hard ones, lands his first 100 on 160 in his first year of being on the air. He throws up his hands and says what's the point...and certainly won't be buying any more commercial products to try and improve his stationand out of business go more of the commercial equipment makers. Now... I don't have a problem with technology and its advancement...I'm a technical guy. But the advantages that paid or even shared remote station access allows should dictate that these OPs compete in their own class with others
Re: Topband: The Remote question
Well folks, I have just about had it with this thread and the group. I had joined the group to possibly help my knowledge of operating and building equipment and antennas for 80 and 160 meters, not to be bombarded with a ton of messages of how the entire ham community feels about what is becoming common practice for some. My delete key is nearly worn out. It appears that the moderator of the list is off on vacation somewhere or simply does not care about this non-stop remote / DXCC drivel. To those who've helped me in the past - thank you. The rest of you guys can have at - I'm un subscribing ASAP. Jim Bennett / W6JHB Folsom, CA On Jul 12, 2015, at 3:56 PM, W0MU w...@w0mu.com wrote: So what is the difference if I build a station for $100,000 or I rent one for whatever it costs? Nothing. I guess the guy that can't climb towers who has to pay someone else to climb it and fix his stuff should be shoved into another category too? I must have missed what is the big prize for #1 Honor roll? A plaque? I hope that you feel good about yourself because of other things not because you managed to work them all. As I said before #1 has been at it longer, has better stuff and plays radio more and probably is located in a better location. CQ has a competition every year and I get that. It starts over every year and it is a rush to work as many as you can. Once again the winners will have great stations and tons of time. Congrats to the winners. I think Honor Roll #1 means much more to you that have decided to make this a strange competition that really doesn't have a start date or and end, then it does the majority of active hams. Bitch all you like about Remote Radio it is here to stay just like packet and the ARRL is certainly not going to exclude anyone. I could care less who is or is not using Remote radio. I hope more people do as we could use more activity on the bands. I would love to see old timers and most of the ham population are old timers now be able to operate from nursing homes, condo's, rv's etc. I guess you would rather them be shoved to the streets and ignored. What you are asking for is less competition in your competition which is a bit hypocritical isn't it? Removing players from the DXCC field waters down your victory doesn't it? Why would the rules change now after remotes being allowed for 50 years? Paying for a service is not even relevant to the conversation so lets not make it one.How I get on the air is really none of your business. On 7/12/2015 2:47 PM, Cecil wrote: It's obvious the DXCC award system is not important to you by your own admission, which doesn't put you in the best of positions to be so vocal about paid/shared remote station access and its impact on the award systems. Call it what you will it's very competitive...in an individualized sort of way but competitive it is. It is a badge of honor for those passionate about such things. Yes the guy with the $100,000 station most days has an advantage over the guy with 100 Watts and a wire...but some days the propagation Gods shine on the guy with 100 Watts and he beats the big bucks station out..also operator skill levels that playing field as well...you learn those things when that's all you have for a station. Yes we have always faced those kind of challenges and no rule or class changes were really needed. It was incentive to make your station the best it could be within your means and to improve your operating skills. For contesters things were a bit better as the differences in station capability was recognized and different competitive classes were formedso the guy with 100 Watts and a wire could feel a sense of accomplishment by competing with guys generally equipped like him. In today's world where one could finally move into that swanky neighborhood that the wife has always wanted to live but couldn't because hubby needed space and acceptance to put up all those ugly wires, towers, antennas and suchno worries! (That's my wife...and we still don't live there) We can pick up a radio front panel for a song and a smokin internet connection and just dial up whatever superstation has propagation to where the DX is today and bag em. Just think about being able to get in on that E skip action anytime it happens just by dialing up a station that is in the skip zone today...and 160 DXCC...just dial around until you find a station that can hear that rare DX station that's on tonight. The wall paper is piling up... What's a traditional station OP to do...he's been working hard for years, building new antennas, buying commercial products and improving his station whenever he can, staying up late nights or getting up early mornings. An expected normal progression for Ham Radiohe is close to finishing his DXCC on 160 and a guy that don't even own a
Topband: The Remote question
Will the last guy who actually emits RF from his station please remember to turn off the rig. K5RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote Question..
Sad indeed to see the post this morning. The idiom “the means justify the end” is true in this case for sure. I guess eventually the rules will say lets just call them on the phone and exchange reports, as we are near that with remotes now. That makes it easier and I guess that is what everyone wants as in school, if too many students are failing lets make the test easier. I will not take the easy way out to increase my Challenge totals although that is my primary goal in radio these days. The spirit and challenge of what DXCC was meant to be has eroded for sure. If that makes you feel good jumping coast to coast for the best prop, go for it. I always wondered why I was being beat out on 160 and 6 by certain 4 land stations and I can ignore their Challenge totals now that I know they don’t really believe it is a true Challenge. Don’t use technology as part of the argument. 73 Mike K4PI _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
Hi Steve, Thanks for your comments. I may seem like a true heretic being on this list. I'm not a *real* contester and even less a *real* DXer. I do have QSOs with DX stations on several bands. But I don't reject QSOs with U.S. or Canadian stations (Canada is only a small handful of miles from here). I have looked at the two sides of this same issue and I can see both sides, too. I also observed a scarcity of smoke and flames. That is appreciated here, too. About heresy (or not). I no longer have the resources - including the space - to install the large antennas required for DX contesting or challenges. At this point in my life I am *not* going to have those resources. So I use 160 meters more casually. In fact, I'm having technical difficulty with the radios but I'll work my way through that. So maybe being on a list named TopBand is not really heresy. The other part of the list name involves the host - Contesting.com. I have the same 'casual' approach to contesting. For me it is more of participating in on-air events. On Top Band my 'contest' would be the Stew Perry. Or maybe some of the QSO parties and sprints with activity on Top Band. It's all good. I'll see you on the air. 73, Bill KU8H On 07/12/2015 09:32 AM, n...@comcast.net wrote: Good morning. I have followed with interest the discussion on this subject. I enjoyed hearing both sides of the issue from my fellow DXers. Most of the replies have been both thoughtful and respectful and I thank you for that. I thought you may find it interesting to hear a comment from the perspective of an RHR user. Perhaps some of the others who comment also used that service (which seems to have triggered this debate) but I don't remember seeing that. I have been an RHR customer for two years. I have been a DXer for the entire 42 years of my amateur career. Climbing the DX Challenge ladder is my principal goal. I have a home station focused on 6, 80 and 160. 93.5% of the entities I need for the Challenge are on these three bands. I have a full sized quarter wave vertical for 160 (and 8 560 ' beverages), a 4 square for 80 and a 9 element M2 at 80' for 6. The station works well and has been productive. But as you know from 160 propagation is finicky. And for those who have not spent time on 6, it is even more so there. I rent the RHR stations because they give me more opportunities to work new ones for the Challenge. It is simply another tool I use to accomplish my goal. And unless the DXCC rul es change I will continue to do so. I appreciate, and respect, those who feel this somehow violates the spirit of the DXCC program. I simply do not agree. Ham radio has always had a prickly relationship with technology. On one hand we love the cool gadgets and the hobby would die without them. On the other, it forces us to deal with change. Anyone remember the debate about using packet clusters to work DX? Shooting fish in a barrel was a common criticism of those who used that technology. Remember when there was a move to ban from DXCC credit qsos made on a list? I suspect remote technology is here to stay; the ARRL BOD has already spoken once on that matter and were quite clear. What I would suggest is view this technology as simply a tool; available to all willing to pay the fee (just like our expensive radios, antennas, amps, etc.) . Use it or don't use it. The choice is yours. Best, Steve, NN4T _ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: The Remote question
Good morning. I have followed with interest the discussion on this subject. I enjoyed hearing both sides of the issue from my fellow DXers. Most of the replies have been both thoughtful and respectful and I thank you for that. I thought you may find it interesting to hear a comment from the perspective of an RHR user. Perhaps some of the others who comment also used that service (which seems to have triggered this debate) but I don't remember seeing that. I have been an RHR customer for two years. I have been a DXer for the entire 42 years of my amateur career. Climbing the DX Challenge ladder is my principal goal. I have a home station focused on 6, 80 and 160. 93.5% of the entities I need for the Challenge are on these three bands. I have a full sized quarter wave vertical for 160 (and 8 560 ' beverages), a 4 square for 80 and a 9 element M2 at 80' for 6. The station works well and has been productive. But as you know from 160 propagation is finicky. And for those who have not spent time on 6, it is even more so there. I rent the RHR stations because they give me more opportunities to work new ones for the Challenge. It is simply another tool I use to accomplish my goal. And unless the DXCC rules change I will continue to do so. I appreciate, and respect, those who feel this somehow violates the spirit of the DXCC program. I simply do not agree. Ham radio has always had a prickly relationship with technology. On one hand we love the cool gadgets and the hobby would die without them. On the other, it forces us to deal with change. Anyone remember the debate about using packet clusters to work DX? Shooting fish in a barrel was a common criticism of those who used that technology. Remember when there was a move to ban from DXCC credit qsos made on a list? I suspect remote technology is here to stay; the ARRL BOD has already spoken once on that matter and were quite clear. What I would suggest is view this technology as simply a tool; available to all willing to pay the fee (just like our expensive radios, antennas, amps, etc.) . Use it or don't use it. The choice is yours. Best, Steve, NN4T _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
The reaction of the DXing community to new technology over the years has been extremely interesting to observe. Some ops are early adopters, applying every bleeding-edge technology available that isn't explicitly prohibited by the rules. At the other extreme are ops who effectively camp on the technology available at the time they became DXers, and argue that any use of subsequently-developed new technology would diminish the value of DXCC awards. Vigorous (and sometimes nasty) debates across this spectrum are as old as DXing, and will likely never end. The ARRL is in the unenviable position of having to keep the DXCC program attractive in the face of relentless technical change and the broad range of DXer attitudes described above. To make things more interesting, they are human, and thus occasionally make mistakes. It is the nature of DXing award programs that some mistakes cannot be corrected, at least not until time machines become available. At the root of all of this is our nature to compete. If DXCC were purely a set of personal achievement awards, then each op would choose his or her technology ground rules, and sally forth accordingly. Some DXers do just that. However, http://www.arrl.org/dxcc-standings isn't entitled DXCC Standings for no reason. Some of us compete, and compete hard, fueling demands for a level playing field. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that competitive DXers will never be happy. Someone else will always have an unfair advantage, because short of requiring *all* DXers to live within the same flat 200 km circle and use identical rigs/ants/apps, the DXCC playing field can never be leveled. My advice? Don't suffer in silence, convey constructive suggestions to your ARRL representatives. But when the DXCC rules change or don't change, recognize that you are one of a large, diverse community that cannot possibly all be simultaneously pleased. DX Is! 73, Dave, AA6YQ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote Question..
Hi Mike, There really is a difference among all the people who walked to school and back every school day for 12 years or so. Some of them lived across the street and others lived ten miles away, uphill both ways evil grin. I do see that somebody who did all of a DX challenge from their home location has more bragging rights than somebody who did parts of it over the internet. This message was done in part with the internet. Doing it all by radio would be *more* fun. 73, Bill KU8H On 07/12/2015 10:37 AM, Mike Greenway wrote: Sad indeed to see the post this morning. The idiom “the means justify the end” is true in this case for sure. I guess eventually the rules will say lets just call them on the phone and exchange reports, as we are near that with remotes now. That makes it easier and I guess that is what everyone wants as in school, if too many students are failing lets make the test easier. I will not take the easy way out to increase my Challenge totals although that is my primary goal in radio these days. The spirit and challenge of what DXCC was meant to be has eroded for sure. If that makes you feel good jumping coast to coast for the best prop, go for it. I always wondered why I was being beat out on 160 and 6 by certain 4 land stations and I can ignore their Challenge totals now that I know they don’t really believe it is a true Challenge. Don’t use technology as part of the argument. 73 Mike K4PI _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
...Will the last guy who actually emits RF from his station please remember to turn off the rig... Why bother ? There'll be nobody listening ! 73 de Mort, SV5/G2JL _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: The Remote question
Steve, the perspective of an award chasing RHR user who also has a well equipped home station has been missing from the discussion. Thanks for providing it. There are others who share your views. The availability of the paid remotes, either in geographically advantageous locations and or using super stations, has made it possible to instantly change transmitting/receiving location to suit the prop. Some folks have already had this ability, either through their own remote QTH or arrangements with friends. The paid remotes have opened favorable propagation selection of station location to the masses. DX chasing is not a life or death situation, as someone else pointed out. I have been licensed since 1962 but was only a casual DXer until retirement in 2008. I rarely sent of a DX QSL and did not apply for my first formal DXCC award until 2009. At retirement, I did set some DX operating and award chasing goals: 160M DXCC, 6M DXCC, DXCC on 10 bands, Honor Roll, Challenge 3000 and 160 WAZ. Better late than never. My perspective on the awards is that their value would be cheapened for me if shortcuts were taken to earn them. Cheapened to the point of: why bother? I could have achieved 6M DXCC long before now by logging into a W6 west coast station to work the Pacific Islands/Asia or logging into a Maine station to work EU more often and more easily. The award would just not be meaningful to me if earned in that manner. Ditto the other awards mentioned. There are many folks who feel as I do. I understand there are many folks who don't feel as I do. I generally don't care what others do if they don't affect me. The prop window on Topband is sometimes short. When I have to stand in line behind a long list of east cost remote users to break a rare DX pileup from western WV, I might have to rethink my Topband participation. So far it has not come to that. So far, most of my goals have been achieved without what, to me, are shortcuts. The last was 6M DXCC, with the application currently pending with ARRL. Still to go, 160 WAZ (2 more zones needed) and Challenge 3000 (2700 plus and counting). Interesting discussion. I appreciate the civility of it. 73 Charlie N8RR Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2015 13:32:30 + From: n...@comcast.net To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: The Remote question Good morning. I have followed with interest the discussion on this subject. I enjoyed hearing both sides of the issue from my fellow DXers. Most of the replies have been both thoughtful and respectful and I thank you for that. I thought you may find it interesting to hear a comment from the perspective of an RHR user. Perhaps some of the others who comment also used that service (which seems to have triggered this debate) but I don't remember seeing that. I have been an RHR customer for two years. I have been a DXer for the entire 42 years of my amateur career. Climbing the DX Challenge ladder is my principal goal. I have a home station focused on 6, 80 and 160. 93.5% of the entities I need for the Challenge are on these three bands. I have a full sized quarter wave vertical for 160 (and 8 560 ' beverages), a 4 square for 80 and a 9 element M2 at 80' for 6. The station works well and has been productive. But as you know from 160 propagation is finicky. And for those who have not spent time on 6, it is even more so there. I rent the RHR stations because they give me more opportunities to work new ones for the Challenge. It is simply another tool I use to accomplish my goal. And unless the DXCC rul es change I will continue to do so. I appreciate, and respect, those who feel this somehow violates the spirit of the DXCC program. I simply do not agree. Ham radio has always had a prickly relationship with technology. On one hand we love the cool gadgets and the hobby would die without them. On the other, it forces us to deal with change. Anyone remember the debate about using packet clusters to work DX? Shooting fish in a barrel was a common criticism of those who used that technology. Remember when there was a move to ban from DXCC credit qsos made on a list? I suspect remote technology is here to stay; the ARRL BOD has already spoken once on that matter and were quite clear. What I would suggest is view this technology as simply a tool; available to all willing to pay the fee (just like our expensive radios, antennas, amps, etc.) . Use it or don't use it. The choice is yours. Best, Steve, NN4T _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
