Topband: radial wire
Brand new still wrapped...5000 ft of AWG 20 insulated wire. It is excess to what I needed for my 80 meter 4 sq and 160 vertical. $170 and I pay shipping to the lower 48. Pic is on KA9FOX's classifieds. Bill K4XS _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Radial wire
Bill Arcing is probably not an issue at least for the 1st couple of years. I guess at some point 10 years down the road and your bargain wire is likely not UV resistant rated (?) Over time it will weather and crack ., running 1.5KW on FT8 you run the risk of setting the grass or leaf litter on fire eventually 8^) At the 100W level your at now not much risk of arcing IMO. Dave NR1DX On 11/6/2020 4:55 PM, cqtestk4xs--- via Topband wrote: "For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire. And Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires." I agree. I recently picked up a 5000 ft roll of insulated 20AWG for a little over $100 shipped. Plenty enough to run 30 radials. I too woul dlike to know if you can cross insulated wires without soldering. Planning on puttin up a 4 square for 80 at my new station in V31 and if you don't have to solder them it would be a great. Bill K4XS/KH7XS/V31XX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector -- Dave manu...@artekmanuals.com www.ArtekManuals.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Topband: Radial wire
"For whatever weird reason, the price of insulated wire is nearly always lower than the equivalent bare wire. And Romex sells for less than the equivalent individual wires." I agree. I recently picked up a 5000 ft roll of insulated 20AWG for a little over $100 shipped. Plenty enough to run 30 radials. I too woul dlike to know if you can cross insulated wires without soldering. Planning on puttin up a 4 square for 80 at my new station in V31 and if you don't have to solder them it would be a great. Bill K4XS/KH7XS/V31XX _ Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
Re: Topband: Radial wire
I just realized that my Beverage wire below was severely stretched. Twice! That may have shortened its life, and may be the reason why it's so rusty in many places. (I can't say by how much.) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Thu, Sep 6, 2018, 12:47 PM Mike Waters wrote: > ... I have a Beverage made from 17 gauge plated steel electric fence wire > that's been up roughly 8 years. The plating is gone from much of it, and > signal levels are really down now because of that due to paramagnetic > losses. In contact with moist soil, I would not expect it to last as long. > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
>Rob, Not barbed wire, but electric fence wire. This wire stays good for >decades. Look at the horse and cattle farms around you. It has the same >conductivity as your galvanized steel tower. Nor does anyone consider >making a tower out of copper or copper clad steel.☺ A radial system of 60 >1/4 wave of #10 copper cost 50 times what the electric fence wire costs. Big difference between wire on fence and buried. I've mistakenly installed galvanized steel ground rods here. Pulling them back out 10 years later they were nothing but rust and useless. The surface area of a tower's galvanized legs is much greater than the surface area of a skinny wire, therefore the RF conductivity is NOT the same. copper has in fact become expensive compared to 15 years ago but all antennas have gotten expensive. The ground system is 1/2 of an antenna. But, unlike the directly excited part, you don't have to do the ground system all at once. You can put it in at affordable segments over time, assuming you will use it for years to come. 73 Rob K5UJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 15:27:35 -0500 From: Rob Atkinson To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial wire http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
Roger posted.":but I would emphasize that WD1A is horrible for bi-directional Beverages as the loss is excessive in the transmission line mode." Roger that is clearly the case as I have found here the hard way. I now use the WD1A for single wire Beverage antennas due to its low cost and strength. I just terminate the far end with a 450 Ohm non-inductive resistor. it would be great for radials as well. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:30 PM Roger Parsons via Topband < topband@contesting.com> wrote: > Joel W5ZN wrote: > > ... low cost radial wire options got me thinking about WD1A. Anyone have > any experience with it as radial wire?? There are two wires that should > pull apart easily ... > > I use WD1A wire mostly for (single direction) Beverages, but also as > radials at the ends of those antennas. In my experience it is excellent for > both applications BUT only if the two wires remain joined. If they are > pulled apart they seem to be self tangling! I think that the wire is > actually a very clever design - the two wires appear to have opposite > twists - so it lays very flat and straight. > > (I know this is not the subject of the posts, but I would emphasise that > WD1A is horrible for bi-directional Beverages as the loss is excessive in > the transmission line mode.) > > 73 Roger > VE3ZI > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: radial wire alternative
This had worked well for radials in the desert of New Mexico both on the ground and elevated American FarmWorks Poly Wire, 1320 ft. at Tractor Supply Co. The conductors are stainless steel and havr about the same ohmic resistance as galvanized wire _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
Joel W5ZN wrote: ... low cost radial wire options got me thinking about WD1A. Anyone have any experience with it as radial wire?? There are two wires that should pull apart easily ... I use WD1A wire mostly for (single direction) Beverages, but also as radials at the ends of those antennas. In my experience it is excellent for both applications BUT only if the two wires remain joined. If they are pulled apart they seem to be self tangling! I think that the wire is actually a very clever design - the two wires appear to have opposite twists - so it lays very flat and straight. (I know this is not the subject of the posts, but I would emphasise that WD1A is horrible for bi-directional Beverages as the loss is excessive in the transmission line mode.) 73 Roger VE3ZI _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
I have maybe 45 radials, some of them WD-1A. I bought over a mile of CAT cable and used it for antennas and radials, silver-soldering the wires together & attaching them to the plate or coax with ring terminals. They worked fine for radials, show no wear after around 8 years. I used WD-1A for a couple bi-directional Beverages and found the salt marsh with tall phragmites dry & blowing in the wind set up so much static that it was noisier than my then INV-L. At that time I went to HI-Z antennas and never looked back. I used the WD-1A for new radials, cutting it into 130' sections & silver-soldering this as well. The WD-1A is only 5 or so years old as radials but I see zero issues in an acidic salt marsh thus far. However... As to splitting the WD-1A, don't try it, it's a waste of time. You have to carefully get the wire split so as to not expose the stainless inside and then once you finally do get the two halves apart and pull them apart, you have a pair of snake-like helixes. The abrupt bend as they separate makes the helix and it will not lay flat. If you were to bury it, it'd probably be OK. I use WD-1A for antenna wire now, bought about 2 miles of it for the future & will likely use it in its natural paired state for radials when I relocate. My 2 pence. 73, Gary KA1J > I like to buy copper wire when I find a good deal surplus or otherwise > and horde it up whenever I need it. > > In following this thread and seeing some folks seeking low cost radial > wire options got me thinking about WD1A. Anyone have any experience > with it as radial wire?? There are two wires that should pull apart > easily and give you a "2 for 1" deal. > > Anywho, just curious if anyone has any experience using it for > radials? > > 73 Joel W5ZN > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
Rob, Not barbed wire, but electric fence wire. This wire stays good for decades. Look at the horse and cattle farms around you. It has the same conductivity as your galvanized steel tower. Nor does anyone consider making a tower out of copper or copper clad steel.☺ A radial system of 60 1/4 wave of #10 copper cost 50 times what the electric fence wire costs. Herb, KV4FZ On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 1:21 PM Rob Atkinson wrote: > Oh man, any time this topic comes up anywhere the guys come out with > all kinds of suggestions for wire that won't last like galvanized > steel and electric fence wire. Nix nix nix...if you want a permanent > ground system go with copper, insulated or not. Stranded doesn't lie > down as well; you want soft drawn copper sold. Stranded wants to > spring up and stay coiled, especially if it is hard drawn antenna > wire. Use that for antennas. Copper clad steel can be hard to work > with too unless you have a spool on a radial plow and are laying it > into a slit a few inches deep with a tractor. > > But if the installation only has to last a few months then use the > barb wire, etc. > > 73 > Rob > K5UJ > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
Well, electric fence wire comes in various levels of galvanizing. The cheap stuff such as RedBrand is class 1 and is galvanized to 0.28 oz of zinc per square foot. Bekaert Wire 17ga which is 0.80 oz per sq. ft. and is also available from Tractor Supply. I've never seen any electric fence wire that was better than that. It goes for the same price as RedBrand, but typically has to be ordered...at least that's the story from my Tractor Supply. So, $29.99 for 1/2 mile. RedBrand is made in the USA and Bekaert is made in Belgium. That exhausts my info on electric fence wire! 8*) 73, Ken - K4XL On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 1:47 PM, Mike Waters wrote: > I don't know which brand is best, but I think the thickness of the > galvanizing varies. (W8JI said that most "galvanized" steel electric fence > wire is actually cadmium plated, and not zinc). > > I have a Beverage made from 17 gauge plated steel electric fence wire > that's been up roughly 8 years. The plating is gone from much of it, and > signal levels are really down now because of that due to paramagnetic > losses. In contact with moist soil, I would not expect it to last as long. > > Where is plated steel electric fence wire available with a good thick > plating? > > 73, Mike > www.w0btu.com > > > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018, 1:22 PM Kenneth Grimm wrote: > >> If you have a Tractor Supply store near you, the price for 1/4 mile of 17 >> ga. galvanized electric fence wire is $14.99. You can get 1/2 mile roll >> for $29.99. Just how long it will last will vary depending on your soil. >> However, at that price it is worth a try. >> >> 73, >> Ken - K4XL >> > -- Ken - K4XL BoatAnchor Manual Archive BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
I don't know which brand is best, but I think the thickness of the galvanizing varies. (W8JI said that most "galvanized" steel electric fence wire is actually cadmium plated, and not zinc). I have a Beverage made from 17 gauge plated steel electric fence wire that's been up roughly 8 years. The plating is gone from much of it, and signal levels are really down now because of that due to paramagnetic losses. In contact with moist soil, I would not expect it to last as long. Where is plated steel electric fence wire available with a good thick plating? 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Wed, Sep 5, 2018, 1:22 PM Kenneth Grimm wrote: > If you have a Tractor Supply store near you, the price for 1/4 mile of 17 > ga. galvanized electric fence wire is $14.99. You can get 1/2 mile roll > for $29.99. Just how long it will last will vary depending on your soil. > However, at that price it is worth a try. > > 73, > Ken - K4XL > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
You in America have no idea how cheap and easy it is there to buy stuff, all sorts of stuff for our hobby. I used 2.5 mm galvanised high-tensile steel wire for my beverages. 1500 metres cost me $170. For my buried ground radials, my cheapest option is 2.5 mm Building Wire, at $29/100 metre roll. I am looking forward to removing my elevated counterpoise as it is just too much work to keep in the air. I have a couple of very large hairy people living in the home paddock, who insist on scratching themselves on the support poles and with the wet winter we've had, there are poles being pushed over and wires are breaking. On ground radials are not an option, as I have cattle in the paddock sometimes, and they will just eat PVC insulated wire on the ground. Looking forward to hearing more of you on Top Band over the next few months as we go through the Spring equinox. I had a decent opening a few evenings ago to NA, plus one JA. 73, Luke VK3HJ -Original Message- From: Kenneth Grimm Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2018 4:21 AM To: Herbert Schoenbohm Cc: n0os...@gmail.com ; TopBand List ; n...@n4is.com ; Richard (Rick) Karlquist ; Grant Saviers Subject: Re: Topband: Radial wire If you have a Tractor Supply store near you, the price for 1/4 mile of 17 ga. galvanized electric fence wire is $14.99. You can get 1/2 mile roll for $29.99. Just how long it will last will vary depending on your soil. However, at that price it is worth a try. 73, Ken - K4XL _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
I like to buy copper wire when I find a good deal surplus or otherwise and horde it up whenever I need it. In following this thread and seeing some folks seeking low cost radial wire options got me thinking about WD1A. Anyone have any experience with it as radial wire?? There are two wires that should pull apart easily and give you a "2 for 1" deal. Anywho, just curious if anyone has any experience using it for radials? 73 Joel W5ZN _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
I just use 2-conductor military field phone wire with the 2 insulated wires in parallel. There is so little current in each radial (I have 137 radials 100 ft long) that the small partly-steel wire works fine. The rugged poly insulation should protect the wire forever and makes zero difference in radial performance. I just stretched it out in my 1 acre field with garden staples and in one year it has been buried by the thatch. I did solder each crimped terminal, and they are above ground and protected from the weather. On 9/4/2018 10:14 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: On 9/4/2018 4:36 PM, Jeff Draughn wrote: I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however See: http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/products/tie-wire.cfm Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
Oh man, any time this topic comes up anywhere the guys come out with all kinds of suggestions for wire that won't last like galvanized steel and electric fence wire. Nix nix nix...if you want a permanent ground system go with copper, insulated or not. Stranded doesn't lie down as well; you want soft drawn copper sold. Stranded wants to spring up and stay coiled, especially if it is hard drawn antenna wire. Use that for antennas. Copper clad steel can be hard to work with too unless you have a spool on a radial plow and are laying it into a slit a few inches deep with a tractor. But if the installation only has to last a few months then use the barb wire, etc. 73 Rob K5UJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
If you have a Tractor Supply store near you, the price for 1/4 mile of 17 ga. galvanized electric fence wire is $14.99. You can get 1/2 mile roll for $29.99. Just how long it will last will vary depending on your soil. However, at that price it is worth a try. 73, Ken - K4XL On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 1:10 PM, Herbert Schoenbohm < herbert.schoenb...@gmail.com> wrote: > 1/4 mile for $30 is reasonable and would work well for radials. > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Acorn-International-EFW1714-1- > 4-Mile-17-Gauge-Galvanized-Fence-Wire/152465194663?epid=4017419194&hash= > item237fa23ea7:g:xOMAAOSw4A5YwFca > > Herb, KV4FZ > > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 2:00 PM Herbert Schoenbohm < > herbert.schoenb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > For a cheap solution for radials is to use buried galvanized barbed wire. > > It is available for pennies a foot. A preferred way of putting it in is > to > > use a is a Ditch Witch with a vibrating plow attachment that allows the > > wire to buried with limited handling. Depending on the soil consistency > it > > will be long-lasting. My sons with metal detectors have unearthed > barbed > > wire that was of a style used 50 years ago by local farmers. In Puerto > Rico > > AM stations have lost entire copper fields by poachers who sent it off to > > Rep Dom by containers to be sent by the pound. They have used the > > galvanized fence wire successfully. > > > > Herb, KV4FZ > > > > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM JC wrote: > > > >> Hi Guys > >> > >> Stay away from aluminum, the aluminum oxide dielectric is a terrible > >> complication around 2 MHz, it become a capacitor and a diode and will > >> generate a lot of noise in presence RF currents. > >> > >> There is no way to avoid the diodes at the connection with different > >> materials, like at the ground plate. When these electrical junctions are > >> very well they will work well for few months, than the noise will start > >> around Sunset when the RF field from AM BC are more intense, the RF > will be > >> there, even if you are far from BC station, the propagation peak is near > >> Sunset. > >> > >> Galvanic corrosion and diode formation is inevitable. Same problem is > >> very common on rotor, mast and tower contacts originating birds on 1810, > >> 1820 and every 10 KHz, most of this signals are originate on your own > >> tower. Just grounding the with a solid contact with the tower can kill a > >> lot of noise. > >> > >> I've seen several situation of aluminum joints becoming a strong noise > >> source. The same joints are not a problem on 80 or 40m, the issue is > just > >> around 2 MHz > >> > >> Save yourself a lot of problems, aluminum an 160m antennas are not a > good > >> combination. > >> > >> 73's > >> JC > >> N4IS > >> > >> > >> _ > >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > >> > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > -- Ken - K4XL BoatAnchor Manual Archive BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
1/4 mile for $30 is reasonable and would work well for radials. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Acorn-International-EFW1714-1-4-Mile-17-Gauge-Galvanized-Fence-Wire/152465194663?epid=4017419194&hash=item237fa23ea7:g:xOMAAOSw4A5YwFca Herb, KV4FZ On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 2:00 PM Herbert Schoenbohm < herbert.schoenb...@gmail.com> wrote: > For a cheap solution for radials is to use buried galvanized barbed wire. > It is available for pennies a foot. A preferred way of putting it in is to > use a is a Ditch Witch with a vibrating plow attachment that allows the > wire to buried with limited handling. Depending on the soil consistency it > will be long-lasting. My sons with metal detectors have unearthed barbed > wire that was of a style used 50 years ago by local farmers. In Puerto Rico > AM stations have lost entire copper fields by poachers who sent it off to > Rep Dom by containers to be sent by the pound. They have used the > galvanized fence wire successfully. > > Herb, KV4FZ > > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM JC wrote: > >> Hi Guys >> >> Stay away from aluminum, the aluminum oxide dielectric is a terrible >> complication around 2 MHz, it become a capacitor and a diode and will >> generate a lot of noise in presence RF currents. >> >> There is no way to avoid the diodes at the connection with different >> materials, like at the ground plate. When these electrical junctions are >> very well they will work well for few months, than the noise will start >> around Sunset when the RF field from AM BC are more intense, the RF will be >> there, even if you are far from BC station, the propagation peak is near >> Sunset. >> >> Galvanic corrosion and diode formation is inevitable. Same problem is >> very common on rotor, mast and tower contacts originating birds on 1810, >> 1820 and every 10 KHz, most of this signals are originate on your own >> tower. Just grounding the with a solid contact with the tower can kill a >> lot of noise. >> >> I've seen several situation of aluminum joints becoming a strong noise >> source. The same joints are not a problem on 80 or 40m, the issue is just >> around 2 MHz >> >> Save yourself a lot of problems, aluminum an 160m antennas are not a good >> combination. >> >> 73's >> JC >> N4IS >> >> >> _ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
For a cheap solution for radials is to use buried galvanized barbed wire. It is available for pennies a foot. A preferred way of putting it in is to use a is a Ditch Witch with a vibrating plow attachment that allows the wire to buried with limited handling. Depending on the soil consistency it will be long-lasting. My sons with metal detectors have unearthed barbed wire that was of a style used 50 years ago by local farmers. In Puerto Rico AM stations have lost entire copper fields by poachers who sent it off to Rep Dom by containers to be sent by the pound. They have used the galvanized fence wire successfully. Herb, KV4FZ On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 1:13 PM JC wrote: > Hi Guys > > Stay away from aluminum, the aluminum oxide dielectric is a terrible > complication around 2 MHz, it become a capacitor and a diode and will > generate a lot of noise in presence RF currents. > > There is no way to avoid the diodes at the connection with different > materials, like at the ground plate. When these electrical junctions are > very well they will work well for few months, than the noise will start > around Sunset when the RF field from AM BC are more intense, the RF will be > there, even if you are far from BC station, the propagation peak is near > Sunset. > > Galvanic corrosion and diode formation is inevitable. Same problem is very > common on rotor, mast and tower contacts originating birds on 1810, 1820 > and every 10 KHz, most of this signals are originate on your own tower. > Just grounding the with a solid contact with the tower can kill a lot of > noise. > > I've seen several situation of aluminum joints becoming a strong noise > source. The same joints are not a problem on 80 or 40m, the issue is just > around 2 MHz > > Save yourself a lot of problems, aluminum an 160m antennas are not a good > combination. > > 73's > JC > N4IS > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
Hi Guys Stay away from aluminum, the aluminum oxide dielectric is a terrible complication around 2 MHz, it become a capacitor and a diode and will generate a lot of noise in presence RF currents. There is no way to avoid the diodes at the connection with different materials, like at the ground plate. When these electrical junctions are very well they will work well for few months, than the noise will start around Sunset when the RF field from AM BC are more intense, the RF will be there, even if you are far from BC station, the propagation peak is near Sunset. Galvanic corrosion and diode formation is inevitable. Same problem is very common on rotor, mast and tower contacts originating birds on 1810, 1820 and every 10 KHz, most of this signals are originate on your own tower. Just grounding the with a solid contact with the tower can kill a lot of noise. I've seen several situation of aluminum joints becoming a strong noise source. The same joints are not a problem on 80 or 40m, the issue is just around 2 MHz Save yourself a lot of problems, aluminum an 160m antennas are not a good combination. 73's JC N4IS _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
Interesting source. The 5356 alloy would be the best choice for radial wires since the 5xxx series are of a corrosion resistant aluminum alloy. 5052 is the usual alloy for boat hulls in salt water. OTOH, it seems the cost of 14ga THHN, the fact that it will last forever, and that it is widely available makes this an academic point. Unspooled properly, the thousands of feet I've used electrically didn't seem to have much coil memory. For elevated radials, Al electric fence wire is my preference, but it has strong coil memory even after 5 years in the air. Grant KZ1W On 9/4/2018 19:14 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: On 9/4/2018 4:36 PM, Jeff Draughn wrote: I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however See: http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/products/tie-wire.cfm Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
Speaking of radial wire - I have recently found a source of it that is very inexpensive. It might not be the best for laying flat - but I have been able to find thousands of feet for like $15. Sorry - this is probably only a USA thing however. Look for your nearest Habitat for Humanity ReStore. They are like a Goodwill for building supplies. They typically have an area with hand tools and you will find spools of wire and RG6 if you are lucky. Great prices. If I see one while I am driving through most anyplace - I stop in to take a quick look. Happy Hunting!! In other news - I have my second tower about 80 percent up in the air. Should be able to finish it during the next month and get it loaded on 160. Hoping to have a pretty good signal from my new QTH by the PreStew. This is my first hilltop QTH and am anxious to see how it plays. 73 Tree N6TR/7 Manning, OR On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 5:00 AM MU 4CX250B <4cx2...@miamioh.edu> wrote: > Jeff, I also use THHN 14Awg stranded wire laying flat on the ground. I > use brown insulation to match the desert floor, and one or two lawn > staples per radial (each is 120 ft long). I'm not certain, but I think > I bought it in 5000 ft spools. > 73, > Jim w8zr > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 4, 2018, at 5:47 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: > > > > Hi Jeff, > > > > > > I use 14 AWG THHN stranded wire for temporary radials laying > > on the ground. Its lays flat. > > > > > > > www.wireandcableyourway.com/14-awg-thhn-stranded-building-wire-500ft-or-2500ft-spool.html > > > > > > 73 > > Frank > > W3LPL > > > > - Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Jeff Draughn" > > To: topband@contesting.com > > Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 11:36:54 PM > > Subject: Topband: Radial wire > > > > I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as > > possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however > > I have used the wire from the big box stores THHN etc. and it always has > > that permanent curl to it or permanent for a good long while. > > > > Anyone know of anything that is very flexible right out of the gate test > > lead wire comes to mind but probably too expensive. > > Thanks > > Jeff, N0OST > > _ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > _ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
Jeff, I also use THHN 14Awg stranded wire laying flat on the ground. I use brown insulation to match the desert floor, and one or two lawn staples per radial (each is 120 ft long). I'm not certain, but I think I bought it in 5000 ft spools. 73, Jim w8zr Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 4, 2018, at 5:47 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: > > Hi Jeff, > > > I use 14 AWG THHN stranded wire for temporary radials laying > on the ground. Its lays flat. > > > www.wireandcableyourway.com/14-awg-thhn-stranded-building-wire-500ft-or-2500ft-spool.html > > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > - Original Message - > > From: "Jeff Draughn" > To: topband@contesting.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 11:36:54 PM > Subject: Topband: Radial wire > > I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as > possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however > I have used the wire from the big box stores THHN etc. and it always has > that permanent curl to it or permanent for a good long while. > > Anyone know of anything that is very flexible right out of the gate test > lead wire comes to mind but probably too expensive. > Thanks > Jeff, N0OST > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
On 9/4/2018 8:53 PM, K9FD wrote: Beware .. in some soils the aluminum wire disappears in a short time, In ILL had aluminum wire down and it just corroded away and left nothing Agreed, but if your soil permits, it works. YMMV. I did try to obtain insulated aluminum wire but could not obtain it except in very large gauges. 73 Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
Beware .. in some soils the aluminum wire disappears in a short time, In ILL had aluminum wire down and it just corroded away and left nothing but lot of noise as the "joints" went bad. Merv K9FD On 9/4/2018 4:36 PM, Jeff Draughn wrote: I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however See: http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/products/tie-wire.cfm Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
On 9/4/2018 4:36 PM, Jeff Draughn wrote: I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however See: http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/products/tie-wire.cfm Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
On 9/4/2018 4:36 PM, Jeff Draughn wrote: I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however I once ordered some dead soft pure aluminum wire and it was as soft as "butter" :-) Even softer than solder. The alloy was something like 1100. Unfortunately, I don't have the vendor info handy. You sometimes see this wire used to strap toys to a cardboard display box. It is called "tie wire" for obvious reasons. Wasn't expensive either, like a penny a foot. It was way more limp than aluminum electric fence wire as found at any farm supply. Hope that helps. 73 Rick N6RK _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
I used 6300' of radial wire from DX Engineering. The great thing about it is that it lays flat on top of the ground without snarling upno need to stretch it...just roll it out. Don’t take it sideways off the reel...unroll the reel. I scalped the grass around the vertical and then used lawn staples from DXE to be sure they stayed down while the grass grew over them. They have been out there for 8 years and I mow over them with no problem. Stranded copper with some sort of tough UV resistant insulation. 73 David Harmon K6XYZ Sperry, OK -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Draughn Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 6:37 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Radial wire I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however I have used the wire from the big box stores THHN etc. and it always has that permanent curl to it or permanent for a good long while. Anyone know of anything that is very flexible right out of the gate test lead wire comes to mind but probably too expensive. Thanks Jeff, N0OST _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 18:36:54 -0500 Jeff Draughn wrote: > I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as > possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, > however I have used the wire from the big box stores THHN etc. and it > always has that permanent curl to it or permanent for a good long > while. > > Anyone know of anything that is very flexible right out of the gate > test lead wire comes to mind but probably too expensive. > Thanks > Jeff, N0OST > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband Hi Jeff There are many, it all depends on what you want to do and how much of a radial system you want. The easy one that comes to mind is https://tinyurl.com/y7ydu5wj I have used aluminum siding in the past works well, takes time and work to connect it together. There are many others that have done this with their 3 or 4 etc squares antennae too. Cheers AJ___ VE3HJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire
Hi Jeff, I use 14 AWG THHN stranded wire for temporary radials laying on the ground. Its lays flat. www.wireandcableyourway.com/14-awg-thhn-stranded-building-wire-500ft-or-2500ft-spool.html 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Jeff Draughn" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 11:36:54 PM Subject: Topband: Radial wire I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however I have used the wire from the big box stores THHN etc. and it always has that permanent curl to it or permanent for a good long while. Anyone know of anything that is very flexible right out of the gate test lead wire comes to mind but probably too expensive. Thanks Jeff, N0OST _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Radial wire
I’m looking for suggestions for radial wire that will lay as flat as possible. I realize that’s probably what everyone is looking for, however I have used the wire from the big box stores THHN etc. and it always has that permanent curl to it or permanent for a good long while. Anyone know of anything that is very flexible right out of the gate test lead wire comes to mind but probably too expensive. Thanks Jeff, N0OST _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire System Comparison - (was adding a parasitic reflect
Paul, I got a good deal on stranded teflon wire. It cost me $0. I lay it on the ground. The only issue I have with it is that the wire is stranded and it wicks in moisture. Teflon is easily nicked and the moisture finds it's way in. You mentioned your wire is solid so you should not have that problem. In any case I'd be hesitant in removing the insulation and soldering. The exposed joints may corrode. I got my wire 25 years ago. At that time teflon was cheap because scrap dealers didn't like it. The overseas recyclers they shipped wire to burned off the insulation to get to the copper; That is not possible with teflon. Mike N2MS > On February 1, 2018 at 9:39 AM Paul Christensen wrote: > > > >"The reason is that the standard DA ground system as far as I know, has > always involved strapping radials to a copper strap running along the line > of radial intersection, clipping off the radial wire that runs past the > strap." > > Unless there's modeled or measured data, that's the "conventional wisdom," > -- and it makes sense in those commercial installations where it's > impractical to use insulated wire that can withstand long-term soil > conditions. Or, is there really that much cross coupling that results in > radial current cancellation when the wire is insulated? > > The wire is buried just below the ground surface and only the wire > insulation would come in contact between radial wires. However, the > conductor-to-conductor distance at the overlap points would be very small. > For the answer, I'll likely need to run a NEC 4.2 model, and assign Z axis > distances of the radials that can be easily adjusted in NEC that results in > anything from a wired cross connection point to any spacing distance in > between radials. > > >Why the teflon insulation? > > Already acquired from a surplus supplier...a lot of it. In addition to the > Teflon insulation, it's solid, silver-tinned copper, 18 AWG. > > Paul, W9AC > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire Comparison
A while back, I specifically asked K3LC whether there was a significant difference electrically between tying radials to a buss in a 4 square or just letting them overlap. To my surprise, Al said that the modeled antenna gain of the overlapping radial system was slightly greater than that of the ground system where the radials are terminated in a copper buss. The issue boils down to: 1.) the extra time spent cutting, stripping and soldering the wires to the buss strap; 2.) the cost of the extra wire wasted in running the wires the full length beyond where they overlap; and 3.) the longevity of the wire insulation. Here at my QTH, I use #14 THHN for radial wire. In some parts of my property, the soil chemistry is such that the wire insulation deteriorated in about four years. In the case of teflon wire, I would expect a much longer service life Two years ago, K8MFO built an 80 meter four square using HyGain Hi-Towers. There are 48, quarter wave radials under each vertical and Don just laid the radials on the ground and overlapped them. He said that laying down the ground staples was enough work and he gets superb performance from his array. 73 Dennis W0JX _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire System Comparison - (was adding a parasitic reflect
>"The reason is that the standard DA ground system as far as I know, has always involved strapping radials to a copper strap running along the line of radial intersection, clipping off the radial wire that runs past the strap." Unless there's modeled or measured data, that's the "conventional wisdom," -- and it makes sense in those commercial installations where it's impractical to use insulated wire that can withstand long-term soil conditions. Or, is there really that much cross coupling that results in radial current cancellation when the wire is insulated? The wire is buried just below the ground surface and only the wire insulation would come in contact between radial wires. However, the conductor-to-conductor distance at the overlap points would be very small. For the answer, I'll likely need to run a NEC 4.2 model, and assign Z axis distances of the radials that can be easily adjusted in NEC that results in anything from a wired cross connection point to any spacing distance in between radials. >Why the teflon insulation? Already acquired from a surplus supplier...a lot of it. In addition to the Teflon insulation, it's solid, silver-tinned copper, 18 AWG. Paul, W9AC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Radial Wire System Comparison - (was adding a parasitic reflect
>> I have researched Laport's material, and find nothing that compares multi-tower array performance when using insulated radial wire versus uninsulated wire when using a bus wire at the radial overlap points. Since his worked in the 1950s mostly focused on directional broadcast tower arrays -- and the use of heavy-gauge wire, possibly insulated radial wire wasn't considered because of long-term insulation decomposition that one day >> results in electrical contact between overlapping radials. I doubt if you'll find anything in the broadcast literature. The reason is that the standard DA ground system as far as I know, has always involved strapping radials to a copper strap running along the line of radial intersection, clipping off the radial wire that runs past the strap. And the standard ground system wire is AWG solid bare soft drawn. I think engineering firms like everything done the same way from one site to the next to reduce variables for a full proof and get a DA dialed in to the licensed pattern. Why the teflon insulation? 73 Rob K5UJ _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Radial Wire System Comparison - (was adding a parasitic reflector to a vertical)
Dan and all... I am in the middle of constructing 4-squares for 160m and 80m. One element of each array is up and operating. A decision must be made concerning the layout of Teflon-insulated radial wire and whether to run a bus wire/strap at the intersection of overlapping radials. It may not seem like it, but it's a lot of extra work and I just want to ensure the effort is worth the result. Cost of the extra wire is not the issue. What I am trying to determine is how much detrimental wire-to-wire coupling occurs when *insulated* radial wire cross and its effect on: (1) cancellation of radial current; (2) pattern; and (3) F/B performance. I have researched Laport's material, and find nothing that compares multi-tower array performance when using insulated radial wire versus uninsulated wire when using a bus wire at the radial overlap points. Since his worked in the 1950s mostly focused on directional broadcast tower arrays -- and the use of heavy-gauge wire, possibly insulated radial wire wasn't considered because of long-term insulation decomposition that one day results in electrical contact between overlapping radials. So, can anyone point me to results that show a modeled comparison between the two types of radial system layouts and even better, actual measured field strength results? I do have a NEC 4.2 license, 4Nec2, and just recently purchased EZNEC Pro/4 and AutoEZ. Ultimately, I will run my own analysis, but it always helps to look at someone else's data to ensure ground system modeling is set up correctly. Paul, W9AC -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dan Maguire via Topband Sent: Thursday, February 1, 2018 2:02 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Adding a parasitic reflector to a vertical For AutoEZ users: A model similar to the parasitic array that Tim described is available on this page: http://ac6la.com/aecollection8.html In the first section of that page, scroll down to topic "Parasitic Elements" and then look for the text "For a vertical parasitic example I chose a model described by N6LF ...". The sample model is for 80m but everything is controlled via variables and there are instructions (within the model itself) on how to scale for other bands. Links to several references are also included on the above page. Dan, AC6LA _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
Loads around here too, some still in use. Some laying around on original spools, rusting away. Have pondered hooking up for Beverages. I think I can beat his price :-) 73/Jon AA1K -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jorge Diez - CX6VM Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27 PM To: 'Herbert Schoenbohm'; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size Really? They are selling that? I can find tons of this, let me know if someone interested hi hi hi -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 03:07 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size I just saw on eBay a 3' piece of barbed wire dated 1878 for sale for $9.78 which comes up to $3.26 per foot! I guess this stuff gets more valuable with age like some good Uruguayan wine.? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-3-foot-piece-of-Barbed-Wire-Barb-Wire-Barbwire-Bobbed-Old-/121567131845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4df738c5 Herb, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 1:47 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: > Hi Herb > > Local price: > > #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft) > #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft) > > Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if > after 2 years the radials "disappear" because of the corrosion > > 73, > Jorge > > > -Mensaje original- > De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de > Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: mi rcoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 > p.m. > Para: topband@contesting.com > Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size > > From Home Depot > > > > $64.98 / roll > FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire > <http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Clas > s-I-Ba > rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609> > > > Model # 317821A > > > > On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: >> In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) >> smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean >> cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black >> market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with >> barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. >> Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he >> use of such a solution is very questionable. >> >> >> Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ >> >> On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: >>> Hi Jorge, >>> >>> >>> Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the >>> only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out >>> of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at >>> least two cases. >>> >>> >>> Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or >>> large!) >>> electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into >>> your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more >>> quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration >>> because in many installations the buried radial system has >>> significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your >>> home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in >>> your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check >>> for shield current. >>> >>> >>> Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most >>> soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important >>> exceptions, some examples are: >>> - soils with large quantities of organic matter, >>> - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, >>> - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals >>> or fertilizers >>> - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. >>> >>> >>> 73 >>> Frank >>> W3LPL >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - Original Message - >>> >>> From: "Bill Wichers" >>> To: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" , "topband" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM >>> Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size >>> >>> The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in >>> physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since >>> you effectively have a la
Re: Topband: radial wire size
Ladder line constructed from barbed wire, could be the best thing in ham radio since the G5RV. Art On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: > Really? They are selling that? I can find tons of this, let me know if > someone interested hi hi hi > > -Mensaje original- > De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert > Schoenbohm > Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 03:07 p.m. > Para: topband@contesting.com > Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size > > I just saw on eBay a 3' piece of barbed wire dated 1878 for sale for > $9.78 which comes up to $3.26 per foot! I guess this stuff gets more > valuable with age like some good Uruguayan wine.? > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-3-foot-piece-of-Barbed-Wire-Barb-Wire-Barbwire-Bobbed-Old-/121567131845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4df738c5 > > > Herb, KV4FZ > > On 4/15/2015 1:47 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: > > Hi Herb > > > > Local price: > > > > #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft) > > #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft) > > > > Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if > > after 2 years the radials "disappear" because of the corrosion > > > > 73, > > Jorge > > > > > > -Mensaje original- > > De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de > > Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: mi rcoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 > > p.m. > > Para: topband@contesting.com > > Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size > > > > From Home Depot > > > > > > > > $64.98 / roll > > FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire > > <http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Clas > > s-I-Ba > > rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609> > > > > > > Model # 317821A > > > > > > > > On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: > >> In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) > >> smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean > >> cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black > >> market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with > >> barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. > >> Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he > >> use of such a solution is very questionable. > >> > >> > >> Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ > >> > >> On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: > >>> Hi Jorge, > >>> > >>> > >>> Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the > >>> only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out > >>> of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at > >>> least two cases. > >>> > >>> > >>> Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or > >>> large!) > >>> electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into > >>> your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more > >>> quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration > >>> because in many installations the buried radial system has > >>> significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your > >>> home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in > >>> your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check > >>> for shield current. > >>> > >>> > >>> Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most > >>> soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important > >>> exceptions, some examples are: > >>> - soils with large quantities of organic matter, > >>> - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, > >>> - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals > >>> or fertilizers > >>> - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. > >>> > >>> > >>> 73 > >>> Frank > >>> W3LPL > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> - Original Message - > >>> > >>> From: "Bill Wichers" > >>> To: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" , "topband" > >>> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 15,
Re: Topband: radial wire size
Really? They are selling that? I can find tons of this, let me know if someone interested hi hi hi -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 03:07 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size I just saw on eBay a 3' piece of barbed wire dated 1878 for sale for $9.78 which comes up to $3.26 per foot! I guess this stuff gets more valuable with age like some good Uruguayan wine.? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-3-foot-piece-of-Barbed-Wire-Barb-Wire-Barbwire-Bobbed-Old-/121567131845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4df738c5 Herb, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 1:47 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: > Hi Herb > > Local price: > > #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft) > #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft) > > Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if > after 2 years the radials "disappear" because of the corrosion > > 73, > Jorge > > > -Mensaje original- > De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de > Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: mi rcoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 > p.m. > Para: topband@contesting.com > Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size > > From Home Depot > > > > $64.98 / roll > FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire > <http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Clas > s-I-Ba > rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609> > > > Model # 317821A > > > > On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: >> In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) >> smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean >> cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black >> market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with >> barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. >> Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he >> use of such a solution is very questionable. >> >> >> Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ >> >> On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: >>> Hi Jorge, >>> >>> >>> Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the >>> only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out >>> of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at >>> least two cases. >>> >>> >>> Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or >>> large!) >>> electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into >>> your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more >>> quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration >>> because in many installations the buried radial system has >>> significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your >>> home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in >>> your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check >>> for shield current. >>> >>> >>> Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most >>> soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important >>> exceptions, some examples are: >>> - soils with large quantities of organic matter, >>> - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, >>> - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals >>> or fertilizers >>> - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. >>> >>> >>> 73 >>> Frank >>> W3LPL >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - Original Message - >>> >>> From: "Bill Wichers" >>> To: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" , "topband" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM >>> Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size >>> >>> The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in >>> physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since >>> you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each >>> one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall >>> current in the system. >>> >>> I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size >>> since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical >>> durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my >>> supplier (although th
Re: Topband: radial wire size
On Wed,4/15/2015 8:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. I agree that mechanical durability and environmental factors are the limit on the size and type wire for both radials and antennas. In my limited experience, the use of insulated wire significantly reduces corrosion. I've built a lot of wire antennas using THHN (ordinary house wire). When I've examined wires that have been up for 8 years or so, the only corrosion I've seen is very close to the ends, while the wire a few inches inside the insulation are clean and brite. I've since gone to hard drawn copper for my high wire antennas, primarily to minimize stretch. With 100# or more of tension on them, I had to lower my 80M dipoles every couple of years to shorten them. For hard drawn copper, I buy a spool of bare #8 from a big box store, tie one end to a tree, the other to a trailer hitch, and pull very slowly until it breaks. This yields hard drawn copper, roughly 15-20% longer, approximately #9. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
I just saw on eBay a 3' piece of barbed wire dated 1878 for sale for $9.78 which comes up to $3.26 per foot! I guess this stuff gets more valuable with age like some good Uruguayan wine.☺ http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-3-foot-piece-of-Barbed-Wire-Barb-Wire-Barbwire-Bobbed-Old-/121567131845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4df738c5 Herb, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 1:47 PM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: Hi Herb Local price: #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft) #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft) Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if after 2 years the radials "disappear" because of the corrosion 73, Jorge -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size From Home Depot $64.98 / roll FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire <http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Class-I-Ba rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609> Model # 317821A On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such a solution is very questionable. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Hi Jorge, Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two cases. Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or large!) electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many installations the buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check for shield current. Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some examples are: - soils with large quantities of organic matter, - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or fertilizers - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Bill Wichers" To: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" , "topband" Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through "regular" (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more difference in your overall antenna system. -Bill Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But what about #17? In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any Thanks in advance 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
Hi Herb Local price: #17 $16,65 per 100 mts (328ft) #14 $30,32 per 100 mts (328ft) Not problem with thief actually at the farm, but will be very bad if after 2 years the radials "disappear" because of the corrosion 73, Jorge -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Herbert Schoenbohm Enviado el: miércoles, 15 de abril de 2015 01:06 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: radial wire size From Home Depot $64.98 / roll FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire <http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Class-I-Ba rbed-Wire-317821A/202025609> Model # 317821A On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: > In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) > smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean > cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black > market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed > wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending > upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such > a solution is very questionable. > > > Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ > > On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: >> Hi Jorge, >> >> >> Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only >> consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight >> out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two >> cases. >> >> >> Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or >> large!) >> electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into >> your radial >> system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than >> heavier >> wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many >> installations the >> buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any >> other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if >> this is a >> problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) >> to check for shield current. >> >> >> Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most >> soils >> are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some >> examples are: >> - soils with large quantities of organic matter, >> - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, >> - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or >> fertilizers >> - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. >> >> >> 73 >> Frank >> W3LPL >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - Original Message - >> >> From: "Bill Wichers" >> To: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" , "topband" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM >> Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size >> >> The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in >> physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since >> you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each >> one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current >> in the system. >> >> I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since >> I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and >> I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although >> they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in >> place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns >> a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to >> see on the ground. >> >> A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size >> for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through "regular" >> (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any >> electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any >> difference in performance. >> >> I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the >> money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it >> will make more difference in your overall antenna system. >> >> -Bill >> >>> Hello >>> >>> >>> >>> Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical >>> >>> >>> >>> What is the difference in performance between installin
Re: Topband: radial wire size
From Home Depot $64.98 / roll FARMGARD 1320 ft. 12-1/2 Gauge 2-Point Class I Barbed Wire <http://www.homedepot.com/p/FARMGARD-1320-ft-12-1-2-Gauge-2-Point-Class-I-Barbed-Wire-317821A/202025609> Model # 317821A On 4/15/2015 11:53 AM, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such a solution is very questionable. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Hi Jorge, Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two cases. Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or large!) electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many installations the buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check for shield current. Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some examples are: - soils with large quantities of organic matter, - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or fertilizers - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Bill Wichers" To: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" , "topband" Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through "regular" (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more difference in your overall antenna system. -Bill Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But what about #17? In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any Thanks in advance 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
In AM broadcast installations the use of buried copper wire (bare) smaller than #10 is considered unacceptable. Here in the Caribbean cooper thieves have found radios stations a good source for black market copper wire and some stations replace thier systems with barbed wire which is harder to steal but very difficult to install. Depending upon the soil the ability to last more than a few years he use of such a solution is very questionable. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 4/15/2015 11:43 AM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: Hi Jorge, Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two cases. Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or large!) electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many installations the buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check for shield current. Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some examples are: - soils with large quantities of organic matter, - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or fertilizers - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Bill Wichers" To: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" , "topband" Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through "regular" (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more difference in your overall antenna system. -Bill Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But what about #17? In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any Thanks in advance 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
Hi Jorge, Bill is almost correct, in most soils mechanical durability is the only consideration for long term durability of copper wire, but out of sight out of mind can be a big problem for radial systems in at least two cases. Galvanic corrosion will damage a buried radial system i f small (or large!) electrical currents flow from the shield of your coaxial cable into your radial system. Of course, small diameter wire will fail more quickly than heavier wire. This is not a trivial consideration because in many installations the buried radial system has significantly lower ground resistance than any other ground in your home or in your station. You can determine if this is a problem in your installation by using a milliammeter (or a common VOM) to check for shield current. Corrosive soils may damage a buried radial system. Fortunately most soils are not corrosive for copper but there are important exceptions, some examples are: - soils with large quantities of organic matter, - poorly drained soils such as wetlands, - soils with a history of heavy agricultural use with farm animals or fertilizers - soils containing materials such as cinders or cinder blocks. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Bill Wichers" To: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" , "topband" Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:27:01 PM Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire size The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through "regular" (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more difference in your overall antenna system. -Bill > Hello > > > > Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical > > > > What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size > #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? > > > > #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But > what about > #17? > > > > In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if > any > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > 73, > > Jorge > > CX6VM/CW5W > > > > --- > El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca > de virus. > http://www.avast.com > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
The only real difference when using reasonable-gauge sizes is in physical durability. Electrically it makes little difference since you effectively have a large number of radials in parallel so each one carries only a relatively small percentage of the overall current in the system. I use 18 gauge bare solid copper on my radials. I use that size since I consider it a practical minimum in terms of physical durability and I can get it for around $50/thousand feet from my supplier (although they have a 5,000 foot minimum order). I've had some 60+ radials in place for about 4-5 years without any problems. Once the copper turns a dull-brown color after the first season it's almost impossible to see on the ground. A lot of people use 14 gauge since that's a commonly available size for building wire in the US. It's easy to get through "regular" (hardware store) channels and it's strong. There isn't really any electrical advantage to the heavier wire -- you won't notice any difference in performance. I think you'll be fine with the #17 wire you have access to. Save the money on the smaller radial wire and spend it somewhere else where it will make more difference in your overall antenna system. -Bill > Hello > > > > Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical > > > > What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size > #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? > > > > #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But > what about > #17? > > > > In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > 73, > > Jorge > > CX6VM/CW5W > > > > --- > El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca > de virus. > http://www.avast.com > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: radial wire size
Jorge, It is a mechanical issue only, dependent on wire type. I used PVC coated copper and even thinner than #17. My 130 radials have been in situ for about 15 years. 73 Clive GM3POI -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jorge Diez - CX6VM Sent: 15 April 2015 12:11 To: 'topband' Subject: Topband: radial wire size Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But what about #17? In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any Thanks in advance 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: radial wire size
Hello Thinking in a 4 SQ, buried radials, 60 or more on each vertical What is the difference in performance between installing radial wire size #14 (2.08 mm2) or #17 (1.04 mm2) ? #14 is the size that DXE sell, so I think is a good size for radials. But what about #17? In $$$ is the half J, so want to know what I am loosing in performance, if any Thanks in advance 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
Where to buy KappTecZ in USA?>> This link: http://www.kappalloy.com/products-solder.php _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
Hi Where to buy KappTecZ in USA? Couldn´t find it in eBay 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de Tom W8JI Enviado el: jueves, 23 de octubre de 2014 09:50 a.m. Para: jbw...@comcast.net; topband@contesting.com Asunto: Re: Topband: Radial Wire > On your mention of Silver solder, do you mean typical circuit board > silver solder or the "real" silver solder, such as used on copper > tubing in high pressure refrigeration systems? > I used the "real" silver solder to solder 3/8" copper tubing to > Stainless Steel Ground rods below ground level. I use KappTecZ when the joint is likely to have direct earth exposure or stress in the joint, although regular solder or "silver solder" from my wife's stained glass stuff has never given me problems above ground. KappTecZ solders almost anything very well with the correct flux. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- Este mensaje no contiene virus ni malware porque la protección de avast! Antivirus está activa. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
On your mention of Silver solder, do you mean typical circuit board silver solder or the "real" silver solder, such as used on copper tubing in high pressure refrigeration systems? I used the "real" silver solder to solder 3/8" copper tubing to Stainless Steel Ground rods below ground level. I use KappTecZ when the joint is likely to have direct earth exposure or stress in the joint, although regular solder or "silver solder" from my wife's stained glass stuff has never given me problems above ground. KappTecZ solders almost anything very well with the correct flux. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
Thanks for all the great information. I appreciate your experience. My current installation is in the woods, not in a clear field. I, unfortunately, won't have the luxury of burying the wire. I'll have to lay it on the surface with staples holding it down. Not much foot traffic to contend with but there are a lot of deer, squirrels and various wildlife to contend with. This is to replace an existing radial field. The majority of the wire used was the old 5 or 8 conductor ribbon style rotor cable that was separated into individual strands. I've found many broken strands and the poor insulation hasn't weathered well. Of course I'll leave the old radial field in place and just lay the new ones on top. As others have mentioned the 16 ga stranded dog fence stuff looks pretty rugged. On 10/22/2014 9:35 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: Thank you very much for this source. I was just looking this week for wire prices. I want to buy quite a lot for next summer's antenna project. The nice thing is he's close enough I'll probably pick it up and save shipping. BTW...any thoughts on solid vs stranded? I do like to use insulated wire as I think it lasts longer. I was thinking 16 or 18 ga. When I did AM broadcast work, we would pull solid wire out of all sorts of stations built in the 1920's and 30's in all types of soil. Unless it was actually cut, it would be good. In my own Ham stuff, I primarily use #16 bare copper bus (which is soft drawn) wire. It lasts longer than I ever keep a house unless physically cut. If I pull some up after several years in the ground, it just barely shows light surface corrosion. I install mine with a plow on a tractor. I can pull a six inch deep radial, or any depth I want, at a few MPH. I have never broken a #16 wire pulling it into the ground. I have never seen one fail from lightning. I personally would stay away from stranded copper, and would especially stay away from aluminum, steel, or steel cored wire (watch what you buy). Any solid copper #16 or larger, especially soft drawn, will last a lot longer than most of use ever will. I would not be afraid of anything solid copper and #16 or larger size. If you never plan on long term direct soil exposure, never plan on soldering it later for an alteration or repair without doing a lot of cleaning work, and never plan on silver soldering, stranded copper is also OK. I use stranded insulated #14 on my 40M 4 square stuff because it is surface wire. The aluminum wire I installed several years ago on that system is falling apart, but the insulated stranded copper is still good. -- 73, Gary K9GS Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
Tom, On your mention of Silver solder, do you mean typical circuit board silver solder or the "real" silver solder, such as used on copper tubing in high pressure refrigeration systems? I used the "real" silver solder to solder 3/8" copper tubing to Stainless Steel Ground rods below ground level. Jim - KR9U When I did AM broadcast work, we would pull solid wire out of all sorts of stations built in the 1920's and 30's in all types of soil. Unless it was actually cut, it would be good. In my own Ham stuff, I primarily use #16 bare copper bus (which is soft drawn) wire. It lasts longer than I ever keep a house unless physically cut. If I pull some up after several years in the ground, it just barely shows light surface corrosion. I install mine with a plow on a tractor. I can pull a six inch deep radial, or any depth I want, at a few MPH. I have never broken a #16 wire pulling it into the ground. I have never seen one fail from lightning. I personally would stay away from stranded copper, and would especially stay away from aluminum, steel, or steel cored wire (watch what you buy). Any solid copper #16 or larger, especially soft drawn, will last a lot longer than most of use ever will. I would not be afraid of anything solid copper and #16 or larger size. If you never plan on long term direct soil exposure, never plan on soldering it later for an alteration or repair without doing a lot of cleaning work, and never plan on silver soldering, stranded copper is also OK. I use stranded insulated #14 on my 40M 4 square stuff because it is surface wire. The aluminum wire I installed several years ago on that system is falling apart, but the insulated stranded copper is still good. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
Thank you very much for this source. I was just looking this week for wire prices. I want to buy quite a lot for next summer's antenna project. The nice thing is he's close enough I'll probably pick it up and save shipping. BTW...any thoughts on solid vs stranded? I do like to use insulated wire as I think it lasts longer. I was thinking 16 or 18 ga. When I did AM broadcast work, we would pull solid wire out of all sorts of stations built in the 1920's and 30's in all types of soil. Unless it was actually cut, it would be good. In my own Ham stuff, I primarily use #16 bare copper bus (which is soft drawn) wire. It lasts longer than I ever keep a house unless physically cut. If I pull some up after several years in the ground, it just barely shows light surface corrosion. I install mine with a plow on a tractor. I can pull a six inch deep radial, or any depth I want, at a few MPH. I have never broken a #16 wire pulling it into the ground. I have never seen one fail from lightning. I personally would stay away from stranded copper, and would especially stay away from aluminum, steel, or steel cored wire (watch what you buy). Any solid copper #16 or larger, especially soft drawn, will last a lot longer than most of use ever will. I would not be afraid of anything solid copper and #16 or larger size. If you never plan on long term direct soil exposure, never plan on soldering it later for an alteration or repair without doing a lot of cleaning work, and never plan on silver soldering, stranded copper is also OK. I use stranded insulated #14 on my 40M 4 square stuff because it is surface wire. The aluminum wire I installed several years ago on that system is falling apart, but the insulated stranded copper is still good. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
Thank heavens, I don't have deer to contend with on my city lot! Main "critters" here are squirrels ("tree rats"), rabbits, possums, the occasional raccoon or fox, and some geese from time to time. If I had deer or other larger animals to deal with, I'd surely use something heavier and put it higher than their heads, if I couldn't bury it! I did, not long ago, get rid of a huge spool of 10- ga magnet wire ( hard-drawn, I think). I've regretted getting rid of it! I had built a lot of antennas with it and it was virtually indestructible! Took a really substantial iron to solder it! I got the huge spool of magnet wire free from a previous employer, who was clearing out a storage area in preparation for selling off the plant. One of the veeps, who was supervising the clean-out, gave it to me, and I loaded it on my pickup and took it home and used it for years for antennas -never made much of a dent in that huge spool! Took two strong men to get it on the bed of my pickup! 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:05 PM To: topband@contesting.com Cc: garyk...@wi.rr.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Wire Hi Gary, I've used bare 14 AWG solid bare copper wire with good success in shallow buried radial systems. It would be a poor choice in corrosive soil (my heavy clay soil is not corrosive). I use 16 AWG stranded insulated copper wire for radials for temporary receiving arrays in areas with heavy foot traffic by herds of white tail deer. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Gary K9GS" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 1:24:20 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Wire Frank, Thank you very much for this source. I was just looking this week for wire prices. I want to buy quite a lot for next summer's antenna project. The nice thing is he's close enough I'll probably pick it up and save shipping. BTW...any thoughts on solid vs stranded? I do like to use insulated wire as I think it lasts longer. I was thinking 16 or 18 ga. On 10/22/2014 1:17 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: > iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable, > consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores and > electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the > convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts > an offer of 90% of his asking price. > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= > > For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00 > per reel plus ten dollars for shipping. > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > - Original Message - > > From: "Jim Brown" > To: topband@contesting.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:42:03 PM > Subject: Topband: Radial Wire > > On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote: >> You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less common. I've seen Home Depot stock it before. > Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot > and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or > 6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in > place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely > available at good prices. > > 73, Jim K9YC > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > -- > 73, > > Gary K9GS > > Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org > Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com > CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org > > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
Hi Gary, I've used bare 14 AWG solid bare copper wire with good success in shallow buried radial systems. It would be a poor choice in corrosive soil (my heavy clay soil is not corrosive). I use 16 AWG stranded insulated copper wire for radials for temporary receiving arrays in areas with heavy foot traffic by herds of white tail deer. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Gary K9GS" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 1:24:20 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Wire Frank, Thank you very much for this source. I was just looking this week for wire prices. I want to buy quite a lot for next summer's antenna project. The nice thing is he's close enough I'll probably pick it up and save shipping. BTW...any thoughts on solid vs stranded? I do like to use insulated wire as I think it lasts longer. I was thinking 16 or 18 ga. On 10/22/2014 1:17 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: > iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable, > consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores and > electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the > convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts > an offer of 90% of his asking price. > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= > > For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00 > per reel plus ten dollars for shipping. > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > - Original Message - > > From: "Jim Brown" > To: topband@contesting.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:42:03 PM > Subject: Topband: Radial Wire > > On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote: >> You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less >> common. I've seen Home Depot stock it before. > Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot > and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or > 6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in > place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely > available at good prices. > > 73, Jim K9YC > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > -- > 73, > > Gary K9GS > > Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org > Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com > CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org > > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
I've had very good success with 16 ga stranded with black insulation for radials! Seems to hold up well and not very obtrusive or noticeable. Last time I got some, I also got a 1000' spool. 73, Charlie, K4OTV -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of donov...@starpower.net Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:17 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Wire iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable, consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores and electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts an offer of 90% of his asking price. http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00 per reel plus ten dollars for shipping. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Jim Brown" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:42:03 PM Subject: Topband: Radial Wire On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote: > You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less common. I've seen Home Depot stock it before. Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or 6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely available at good prices. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
Solid will generally hold up better regarding corrosion, but stranded holds up better if subjected to mechanical stress. Solid is also easier to solder properly, imho. Pick the type best suited to the area your radial field is in. If your radial field gets walked on frequently then stranded is probably the better choice. Solid is generally a better choice in areas that won't be subject to mechanical stresses from walkers and the like. Also, I agree with the other poster that the "dog run wire" is probably the best of the options available from that seller due to it having a polyethylene jacket. I'd personally go with dark colors too to hide in the grass as well as for better uv resistance. -Bill KB8WYP Sent from my iPad > On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Gary K9GS wrote: > > Frank, > > Thank you very much for this source. I was just looking this week for wire > prices. I want to buy quite a lot for next summer's antenna project. > > The nice thing is he's close enough I'll probably pick it up and save > shipping. > > BTW...any thoughts on solid vs stranded? I do like to use insulated wire as > I think it lasts longer. I was thinking 16 or 18 ga. >> >> _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
Frank, Thank you very much for this source. I was just looking this week for wire prices. I want to buy quite a lot for next summer's antenna project. The nice thing is he's close enough I'll probably pick it up and save shipping. BTW...any thoughts on solid vs stranded? I do like to use insulated wire as I think it lasts longer. I was thinking 16 or 18 ga. On 10/22/2014 1:17 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable, consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores and electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts an offer of 90% of his asking price. http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00 per reel plus ten dollars for shipping. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Jim Brown" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:42:03 PM Subject: Topband: Radial Wire On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote: You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less common. I've seen Home Depot stock it before. Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or 6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely available at good prices. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband -- 73, Gary K9GS Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
I'd use their dog wire because it has PE insulation. Mike N2MS - Original Message - From: donov...@starpower.net To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:17:06 - (UTC) Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Wire iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable, consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores and electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts an offer of 90% of his asking price. http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00 per reel plus ten dollars for shipping. 73 Frank W3LPL _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
You bet it is! Those prices are the best I've seen in some time. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 2:55 PM, Carl wrote: > Good link Frank, thanks. > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
Good link Frank, thanks. Some here might be interested in some of these. That #12 copperclad could be interesting if the copper is thick enough for 160 transmitting and you can overlook the color! http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-FT-COPPER-CLAD-STEEL-TRACER-LOCATING-WIRE-12-AWG-30-V-YELLOW-Made-in-USA-/251658885983?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a9809db5f http://www.ebay.com/itm/500FT-UNDERGROUND-PET-FENCE-WIRE-18AWG-SOLID-GREEN-30-MIL-JACKET-MADE-IN-USA-/251663392372?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a984e9e74 http://www.ebay.com/itm/500-FT-TFN-TEWN-WIRE-18-AWG-SOLID-600-V-MADE-IN-USA-3-COLORS-AVAILABLE-/251558308312?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a920b29d8 http://www.ebay.com/itm/500FT-UNDERGROUND-PET-FENCE-WIRE-16AWG-SOLID-ORANGE-30-MIL-JACKET-MADE-IN-USA-/251673136635?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a98e34dfb Carl KM1H From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:17 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Radial Wire iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable, consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores and electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts an offer of 90% of his asking price. http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00 per reel plus ten dollars for shipping. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Jim Brown" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:42:03 PM Subject: Topband: Radial Wire On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote: You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less common. I've seen Home Depot stock it before. Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or 6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely available at good prices. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5315 / Virus Database: 4181/8433 - Release Date: 10/22/14 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial Wire
iwc2carl on ebay is my favorite supplier of bulk wire. He's very reliable, consistently less expensive (including shipping) than the retail stores and electrical wholesalers, ships in a few days and you can't beat the convenience of delivery direct to your door. He almost always accepts an offer of 90% of his asking price. http://www.ebay.com/sch/iwc2carl/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= For radials I typically use 1000 foot reels of 16 AWG stranded for $50.00 per reel plus ten dollars for shipping. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Jim Brown" To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:42:03 PM Subject: Topband: Radial Wire On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote: > You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less > common. I've seen Home Depot stock it before. Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or 6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely available at good prices. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Radial Wire
On 6/26/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Wichers wrote: You can get solid thhn. Some codes even require it, but it is much less common. I've seen Home Depot stock it before. Solid #12 and #14 THHN on 500 ft spools is stocked by every Home Depot and Lowes store I have visited. They even offer a discount (10% on 5 or 6 spools, I think). I prefer #14 solid because it seems to remain in place a bit better than stranded. I would use #18 if it were widely available at good prices. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire size ?
You could use the 18 gauge insulated stranded CCS (Copper Clad Steel) wire that Davis RF and The Wireman sell. The PE jacket is a matte black color and not very visible from any distance away. It's pretty strong too, and not very expensive. I use it a lot for wire antennas. I'm amazed your 22 gauge wire is holding up for elevated radials! Especially 135 feet long! I would expect such small wire to break pretty quick used in your application so I'm really surprised it's working for you. Regarding the resistance, I doubt it would make much of a difference. I'd go with larger wire more for strength than anything else. I use 18 gauge solid copper for my own on-ground radials (but I have some 40(ish) of them). -Bill > I use 3 raised radials ~ 135 feet long of #22 ga. solid wire. > used for dog perimeter control and is un-tinned copper > > covered with green plastic. The wire is about 11 feet high to keep it out of > the way in the common property woods area of multi building condos and > will be taken down when the weather starts to warm. > > The resistance of 135 feet of copper wire is: > #22 ga. 2.18 Ohms > #20 ga. 1.37 Ohms > #16 ga. 0.5 Ohms [snip] _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire size ?
On 2/25/2014 9:45 AM, Jim F. wrote: Would going to 16 ga. increase the radiated antenna current X times ? Not enough to matter, but it certainly would not hurt. For next year, though, I would try to use more radials. Having them elevated is good, and elevating them even more is better. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: Radial wire size ?
I use 3 raised radials ~ 135 feet long of #22 ga. solid wire. used for dog perimeter control and is un-tinned copper covered with green plastic. The wire is about 11 feet high to keep it out of the way in the common property woods area of multi building condos and will be taken down when the weather starts to warm. The resistance of 135 feet of copper wire is: #22 ga. 2.18 Ohms #20 ga. 1.37 Ohms #16 ga. 0.5 Ohms Per the calculator at : http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html Measuring the current in each of the three 22 ga. radials with an old surplus RF ammeter while running 5 watts on 1.824 Mhz (in the middle of the afternoon :-) they measure in turn: 240, 120, and 170 ma. Would going to 16 ga. increase the radiated antenna current X times ? BTW, The wire held up very well in the many NH ice and snow storms this year but the green plastic coating reflects morning light and at dusk like a neon sign. Very scary in this condo enviornment with restrictive covenants and regulations. Next year I will try dull brown #16 ga. like the inverted U, which is far less visible. 72, Jim / W1FMR _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: Radial wire in bulk
Check at the metal recyclers; Teflon insulated wire brings little money as scrap and is rather common where there is high tech and military contractors. Regular tinned copper and stranded PVC insulated is also common and around here magnet wire as used in motor shops is hard to find in any quantity on a regular basis. Sometimes Fleabay is good when shipped from close by. I got all my military telephone Beverage wire real cheap since its listing description was misleading, $25 for 2.5km was hard to take! Hamfests have always been good hunting during a poor economy. Carl - Original Message - From: "AA8R - Notebook" To: Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 9:33 AM Subject: Topband: Radial wire in bulk Hi all, Can anyone suggest a good online resource to purchase wire in bulk? I am in the process of laying down a radial system for a 160m Inverted L. Randy, AA8R _ Topband Reflector - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3209/6027 - Release Date: 07/28/13 _ Topband Reflector
Topband: Radial wire in bulk
Hi all, Can anyone suggest a good online resource to purchase wire in bulk? I am in the process of laying down a radial system for a 160m Inverted L. Randy, AA8R _ Topband Reflector
Topband: Radial Wire Source
Consolidated Electronic Wire and Cable http://www.conwire.com/ sells bulk quantities of solid copper tinned wire, available in many AWG sizes. Prices seem to track copper commodities prices.image that. 73, Terry K4RX ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
> You really do not need stranded wire. Bare solid wire is typically used > for grounds. Solid wire lasts longer, and is easier to connect to later because it is easier to remove all corrosion without chemical cleaning or strand-by-strand cleaning. Also beware of gutting old wires, because some (like twinlead) are copper clad steel with thin copper. After a while, it will rust apart. Nothing lasts like solid copper. I use #16 tinned copper buss wire, bought on 5000 foot reels. Stuff installed in 1998 looks like new when I dig it up, and lightning never has melted it. and while the standard of 120 radials spaced 3 degress is a > well known standard for ground systems, it is very rare in amateur > radio. >> The only reason 120 radials were ever used is because the FCC excludes some complex verification measurements when a standardized system they chose is used. It has nothing to do with how it works. Often, 30-50 radials is immeasurably different than 120. > Having installed many MW systems, I can tell you the ideal is not always > achieved. At the end of the day, get as much wire in the ground wherever > it is possible. That is always the best advice, because even similar systems and locations can be different. Also, measured base resistance does not translate into efficiency. I've had 1/4 wave verticals with ground systems making 50-60 ohm base resistance equal in performance to the same antenna, at the exact same spot, with radial systems making 35 ohm base impedances. This is because radials have standing waves, even buried radials, and transform impedance. 73 Tom ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
On 6/5/2012 2:08 PM, Lloyd Berg N9LB wrote in part: > I like the direct copper to soil DC contact rather than laying insulated wire > on/in the ground. Also the solid bare copper wire won't leach away into the > soil for 40-50 years. > > Never bury bare stranded wire because it disintegrates way too fast, > which is why the National Electrical Code requires that all ground wire > be solid. > > Lloyd, I don't think that statement, about you having any benefit of bare copper in contact with earth, is completely correct. I always thought the whole purpose of a good ground system under a Marconi type vertical antenna was to make the currents flow in a highly conductive medium rather than in a lossy one like soil. (Which varies in conductivity all over the place.) Under you vertical on 160 is the one place you don't want your RF return path currents to flow is in a dissipating diaelectric soil with bare copper wire in contact with it. IMHO the radial system replaces the lossy medium by replacing it with a highly conductive medium. Reading the wonderful material from Guy, K2AV, I think demonstrates that principle, irrespective of the lack of quality of earth underneath, is found in his FCP counter poise design. So I would think that insulated wire laying on the ground or just below the grass is not only the easiest way to go but may also be more efficient. Laying inexpensive solid or stranded #16 on the grass held in place by fencing hook or large stapes pounded down in the earth will bury themselves under the growing grass mat in a few weeks, enough so that a mower or a string trier will not snag them. Another issue today is that if copper thieves see bare wire they will just rip it out of the ground. Insulated #16 stranded is essentially worthless to them. Herb, KV4FZ ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
I buy 5,000 foot reels (which is the minimum order from my supplier) of 18 awg solid copper wire from a local wholesale wire supply house. You should be able to get most electrical supply houses to order that for you. My local shop I've worked with for years, they specialize in communications and security wire but can order just about anything. Pricing was around $53/1,000 feet. -Bill > On 6/5/2012 9:08 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: > > I use #14 stranded THHN wire from Home Despot because it's easy work > work with. > > I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded, > and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire. I would > love to use #18, but have not been able to find a source for it in > quantity. Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a > quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools. > > 73, Jim K9YC > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
A number of years ago I got a partially used bucket (spool in a bucket) of #18 solid copper wire from a motor rewinding shop. The wire had a thin coat of enamel-like HV insulation on it so it was impervious to any degrading from soil or other elements. I had to scrape off the insulation to solder, but otherwise it was real good stuff. I got a few thousand feet for not much money. - Wes Attaway (N5WA) --- 1138 Waters Edge Circle, Shreveport, LA 71106 318-797-4972 (Office) - 318-393-3289 (Cell) Computer Consulting and Forensics -- EnCase Certified Examiner --- -Original Message- From: topband-boun...@contesting.com [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:18 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: radial wire source On 6/5/2012 9:08 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: > I use #14 stranded THHN wire from Home Despot because it's easy work work with. I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded, and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire. I would love to use #18, but have not been able to find a source for it in quantity. Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools. 73, Jim K9YC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
Hi Dan! I use #12 solid solid copper THHN "house wire" - around here Menards has the best price, HD has gotten very expensive in the last year. I strip the insulation off with a little jig I made utilizing an imbedded utility knife blade. I like the direct copper to soil DC contact rather than laying insulated wire on/in the ground. Also the solid bare copper wire won't leach away into the soil for 40-50 years. Never bury bare stranded wire because it disintegrates way too fast, which is why the National Electrical Code requires that all ground wire be solid. 73 Lloyd - N9LB On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Dan Bookwalter wrote: > I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances > changed and I couldn't do anything about it at the time... > > So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was > thinking of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go > with the radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 > radials that in theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per > W8JI website) , then I was going to use whatever wire I can find for > the remaining 40 or 50 radials. My radial field can only cover from > about SW thru North over to East. > > > Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check > with the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly > they weren't much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for > $50 I would need about 3000 feet. > > Dan > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
I used to buy huge spools of #16 tinned copper "bus wire" from Interstate Wire and Cable in Dallas, TX. The price was fairly good compared to building wire from the home store. I built a grid with 3x3 foot spacing, so insulated wire was out, and tinning was a real plus for soldering the crossovers. After 10 years on the ground, the grid is still in good shape. Rick N6RK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
and then there's the 6000 ft spool of insulated, tinned #16 that I found at the Dayton flea market for $20. It'll probably outlast me. 73, Pete N4ZR The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com, spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 and arcluster.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 On 6/5/2012 12:38 PM, Eric Tichansky NO3M wrote: > Also check what might be available from the Wireman. I picked up > a 5000 ft spool of twin-lead (#18?) from them a couple years ago > for $100. It was a bit of a job splitting it, mainly from the > tendency to twist when pulling the insulation apart in the > middle. However, cutting to the desired radial length and > connecting one end to a pulley w/ a pivot took care of that. > Having two people pulling it apart while walking out from center > also helps to keep tension on both wires and avoid it balling up > where it is splitting/twisting. All said and done, 1+ ft of > radials for about $0.01/ft and it's held up fine over the past > two years. > > 73 - Eric NO3M > > On 06/05/12 12:18, Jim Brown wrote: >> I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded, >> and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire. I would >> love to use #18, but have not been able to find a source for it in >> quantity. Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a >> quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools. >> >> 73, Jim K9YC >> ___ >> UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radial wire
On 6/5/2012 9:57 AM, jcjacob...@q.com wrote: > Another source, again if you watch for sales, is 14-2 awg w/ground NM Romex > type cable. Yes. I just did that with a 25 ft piece of #10-2 Romex to build some loading coils. The big box store didn't have any #10 solid. 73, Jim K9YC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Radial wire
Dan is looking for radial wire. I've been lucky to find spools on sale at the local Big Box stores. Another source, again if you watch for sales, is 14-2 awg w/ground NM Romex type cable. Run an inexpensive Romex splitter over it and you have 750 feet of radials from a 250 foot coil. It's a little work, but it's going in the ground... PLUS 1/3 of the radials are bare copper. Good luck with the project. 73 es GDDX K9WN Jake ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
Also check what might be available from the Wireman. I picked up a 5000 ft spool of twin-lead (#18?) from them a couple years ago for $100. It was a bit of a job splitting it, mainly from the tendency to twist when pulling the insulation apart in the middle. However, cutting to the desired radial length and connecting one end to a pulley w/ a pivot took care of that. Having two people pulling it apart while walking out from center also helps to keep tension on both wires and avoid it balling up where it is splitting/twisting. All said and done, 1+ ft of radials for about $0.01/ft and it's held up fine over the past two years. 73 - Eric NO3M On 06/05/12 12:18, Jim Brown wrote: > I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded, > and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire. I would > love to use #18, but have not been able to find a source for it in > quantity. Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a > quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools. > > 73, Jim K9YC > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
On 6/5/2012 9:08 AM, DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: > I use #14 stranded THHN wire from Home Despot because it's easy work work > with. I've used a lot of #14 THHN solid because it's cheaper than stranded, and find it no more difficult to work with than stranded wire. I would love to use #18, but have not been able to find a source for it in quantity. Either Lowe's or Home Depot (don't recall which) orffers a quantity discount for something like six 500 ft spools. 73, Jim K9YC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
I use #14 stranded THHN wire from Home Despot because it's easy work work with. Dave WX7G On Jun 5, 2012 9:23 AM, "W2XJ" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You really do not need stranded wire. Bare solid wire is typically used > for grounds. and while the standard of 120 radials spaced 3 degress is a > well known standard for ground systems, it is very rare in amateur > radio. Anything beyond 12 1/8 wavelength radials is a plus. I would > check an electrical wholesaler and price bare copper in bulk. Usually > #10 is used but I see no serious reason why #12 or even #14 would work > in this application. I prefer a buried ground (or at least on the > surface) over elevated for various reasons. > > Having installed many MW systems, I can tell you the ideal is not always > achieved. At the end of the day, get as much wire in the ground wherever > it is possible. > > On 6/5/12 9:01 AM, Dan Bookwalter wrote: > > I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances > changed and I couldn't do anything about it at the time... > > > > So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was > thinking of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go with > the radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 radials that > in theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per W8JI website) , > then I was going to use whatever wire I can find for the remaining 40 or 50 > radials. My radial field can only cover from about SW thru North over to > East. > > > > > > Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check > with the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly they > weren't much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for $50 I > would need about 3000 feet. > > > > Dan > > ___ > > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > > > > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
You really do not need stranded wire. Bare solid wire is typically used for grounds. and while the standard of 120 radials spaced 3 degress is a well known standard for ground systems, it is very rare in amateur radio. Anything beyond 12 1/8 wavelength radials is a plus. I would check an electrical wholesaler and price bare copper in bulk. Usually #10 is used but I see no serious reason why #12 or even #14 would work in this application. I prefer a buried ground (or at least on the surface) over elevated for various reasons. Having installed many MW systems, I can tell you the ideal is not always achieved. At the end of the day, get as much wire in the ground wherever it is possible. On 6/5/12 9:01 AM, Dan Bookwalter wrote: > I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances changed > and I couldn't do anything about it at the time... > > So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was thinking > of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go with the > radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 radials that in > theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per W8JI website) , then I > was going to use whatever wire I can find for the remaining 40 or 50 radials. > My radial field can only cover from about SW thru North over to East. > > > Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check with > the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly they weren't > much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for $50 I would need > about 3000 feet. > > Dan > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: radial wire source
Going with #14 would be fine for the first 4-8 if you are keeping a running log of measurements; otherwise its overkill. As far as pricing the local surplus dealer has any gauge at $3 a pound and Ive seen it cheaper at scrap metal dealers. My old systems used #18, on the ground and later elevated. If on the ground a layer of mesh out to 50' or so is better by far as a starting point. That has been discussed on here many times. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: "Dan Bookwalter" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 9:01 AM Subject: Topband: radial wire source >I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances changed >and I couldn't do anything about it at the time... > > So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was > thinking of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go > with the radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 radials > that in theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per W8JI website) > , then I was going to use whatever wire I can find for the remaining 40 or > 50 radials. My radial field can only cover from about SW thru North over > to East. > > > Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check > with the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly they > weren't much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for $50 I > would need about 3000 feet. > > Dan > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2425/5046 - Release Date: 06/05/12 > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Topband: radial wire source
I think I asked something similar last fall , but , circumstances changed and I couldn't do anything about it at the time... So , here I am again looking for a source of radial wire I was thinking of either going with K2AV's FCP or a radial field If i go with the radials I was thinking of using #14 stranded for about 15 radials that in theory would help absorb any lightning impulses (per W8JI website) , then I was going to use whatever wire I can find for the remaining 40 or 50 radials. My radial field can only cover from about SW thru North over to East. Is there a better source for wire than Lowes/Home Depot ? I will check with the local electrical distibutor , but , if I recall correctly they weren't much better Lowes currently has 500' of #14 THHN for $50 I would need about 3000 feet. Dan ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK