Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[niftybunny]

It was nothing personal at all.

My point was and is: You can’t substitute a German non profit with this 
organisation.

Even if you could, torservers.net are supporting all the others smaller orgs, 
not the other way around.

Thats a lot of work organising orgs and also avoiding  unnecessary work in one 
of the reason most orgs have strict reduced exit policies at place nowadays.

You get a few 100 abuse mails a day, you have to take care of the servers, talk 
to people, organise things, make sure everyone is happy.

The yearly paperwork for a non profit doesn’t really matter in the grand 
pattern of things.

Take care!

> On 8. Aug 2019, at 06:08, Mitar  wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> So I initially just wanted to share a tool/service which I think
> addresses some of the issues I noticed in projects, when people get
> burned out because of all the paperwork involved. I replied further to
> mostly address some, from my perspective, misunderstandings about this
> tool/service. By providing more information I thought people can
> decide better if this tool/service is something which could be useful
> here.
> 
> I think we are going now in circles and I think that for anyone who
> cares about this tool/service can read more information by themselves.
> I do not see much interest in it, so I will not continue this thread.
> If anyone has more questions about it and would like my ideas how it
> could be applied to this project, feel free to write to me directly.
> 
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 4:45 PM niftybunny
>  wrote:
>> First off, nice to see you are fighting for the good in the world, while 
>> having a company in Delaware. Paying 0% taxes.
> 
> Not sure if this relates to me personally, but I am not involved with
> the company. And you are right that we should be mindful about how
> companies are incorporated, when deciding to deal with them. Not sure
> if this is the critical factor though, but it is for sure a factor.
> Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
> 
> And you are right that closer your non-profit host is to the project,
> easier it is to donate to your project. But I thought tor servers
> project is a global project, not a German project, so having fiscal
> sponsors all around the globe in fact, by your own argument, makes it
> easier to donate for more people. US people can donate to US based
> non-profit hosts, EU people can donate to EU based non-profit hosts,
> if there was a German host, then it would address your concern about
> German donations as well.
> 
> You can of course have a network of partners, like tor servers project
> has now to address the same need. But there is still paperwork will
> all this.
> 
> Anyway, this is all from my side. I hope all this energy I have
> observed just now could be redirected to further push tor servers
> project into the future. It is always easier to argue against than
> working towards.
> 
> 
> Mitar
> 
> --
> http://mitar.tnode.com/
> https://twitter.com/mitar_m
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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Mitar]

Hi!

So I initially just wanted to share a tool/service which I think
addresses some of the issues I noticed in projects, when people get
burned out because of all the paperwork involved. I replied further to
mostly address some, from my perspective, misunderstandings about this
tool/service. By providing more information I thought people can
decide better if this tool/service is something which could be useful
here.

I think we are going now in circles and I think that for anyone who
cares about this tool/service can read more information by themselves.
I do not see much interest in it, so I will not continue this thread.
If anyone has more questions about it and would like my ideas how it
could be applied to this project, feel free to write to me directly.

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 4:45 PM niftybunny
 wrote:
> First off, nice to see you are fighting for the good in the world, while 
> having a company in Delaware. Paying 0% taxes.

Not sure if this relates to me personally, but I am not involved with
the company. And you are right that we should be mindful about how
companies are incorporated, when deciding to deal with them. Not sure
if this is the critical factor though, but it is for sure a factor.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

And you are right that closer your non-profit host is to the project,
easier it is to donate to your project. But I thought tor servers
project is a global project, not a German project, so having fiscal
sponsors all around the globe in fact, by your own argument, makes it
easier to donate for more people. US people can donate to US based
non-profit hosts, EU people can donate to EU based non-profit hosts,
if there was a German host, then it would address your concern about
German donations as well.

You can of course have a network of partners, like tor servers project
has now to address the same need. But there is still paperwork will
all this.

Anyway, this is all from my side. I hope all this energy I have
observed just now could be redirected to further push tor servers
project into the future. It is always easier to argue against than
working towards.


Mitar

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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[teor]

Hi niftybunny, Mitar,

> On 7 Aug 2019, at 17:37, niftybunny  
> wrote:
> 
> Thats complete and utter bullshit.

After thinking about it for a while, I have allowed this email through 
moderation.

I considered rejecting it, because this thread is getting repetitive.
And it seems like you're getting frustrated, because you don't agree with each 
other.
Disagreements are ok, but sometimes you need to summarise, then move on.

Please stay on topic, provide new, useful information, and stay calm.

If that doesn't happen, we might reject or delay future emails on this thread.

T



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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[niftybunny]

Thats complete and utter bullshit.

First off, nice to see you are fighting for the good in the world, while having 
a company in Delaware. Paying 0% taxes. Fuck the working poor, fuck all 
taxpayers and fuck the government that need these taxes … nice touch .

https://docs.opencollective.com/help/about/company 


The point of a non profit is that donations to it are tax deductible.

Donations from NON EU organisations are NON  tax deductible. Paragraph.

https://www.steuerberater-haffner.de/wissenswertes/steuertipps-steuertricks/auslandsspenden/
 


https://www.expat-news.com/13146/recht-steuern-im-ausland/wann-spenden-ins-ausland-steuerlich-absetzbar-sind/
 


https://www.buhl.de/steuernsparen/spenden-ins-ausland-2/ 


https://winheller.com/blog/auslandsspenden-an-stiftung-in-der-eu/ 


You can donate to EU non profits but the DONOR has to PROOF without  doubt that 
these organisations have the same non profits standards as a German one.

https://www.esche.de/news/publikationen/compact-2009/compact-spezial-stiftungen-022009/spenden-ins-eu-ausland-abzugsfaehig-eugh-entscheidet-in-der-rechtssache-persche/
 



Non donor will do this.  Even if he will try its almost impossible and lots of 
lots of work.

For your 5% cut you offer some shiny badges and things nobody really needs. 
Getting under an umbrella organisation is extra.

https://opencollective.com/hosts

You are misleading the donors and everyone with this setup.

Avoid like the plague.

> On 6. Aug 2019, at 18:56, Mitar  wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 6:30 AM niftybunny
>  wrote:
>> Okay, I´ll bite. How do they solve this?
> 
> You can see the list of hosts they have here:
> 
> https://opencollective.com/hosts
> 
>> They have ready made non profits in Germany (eingetragener gemeinnütziger 
>> Verein) that I can use and rename and you will take care of it?
> 
> You do not rename. They are just fiscal sponsor:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_sponsorship
> 
> That process is being abstracted by Open Collective.
> 
>> And the 6 people will be delivered to?
> 
> I do not understand what you mean by this.
> 
>> So basically slavery with extra steps and a  5% cut ...
> 
> I do not understand what you mean by this. It is a service they offer
> so you do not have to take care of non-profits yourself. If you want
> to take care, great. But if you have lack of (human) resources to take
> care, then you can use their service. How is this slavery? It looks
> pretty voluntary to engage with them (do the degree of business
> partnerships being voluntary in our society).
> 
> 
> Mitar
> 
> --
> http://mitar.tnode.com/
> https://twitter.com/mitar_m
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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Mitar]

Hi!

One interesting option could be that the existing tor servers
non-profit applies as a host organization. And then other tor-based
projects could be fiscally sponsored by it. That means other tor-based
projects would not have to have/be a non-profit (and could decide to
not take any pay cut). But it would not solve the current problem
which seems to be the lack of people to run the tor servers non-profit
itself. Also, I think it is better if donations would be collected for
all projects and distribute that instead of individual projects trying
to raise donations.


Mitar

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 9:56 AM Mitar  wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 6:30 AM niftybunny
>  wrote:
> > Okay, I´ll bite. How do they solve this?
>
> You can see the list of hosts they have here:
>
> https://opencollective.com/hosts
>
> > They have ready made non profits in Germany (eingetragener gemeinnütziger 
> > Verein) that I can use and rename and you will take care of it?
>
> You do not rename. They are just fiscal sponsor:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_sponsorship
>
> That process is being abstracted by Open Collective.
>
> > And the 6 people will be delivered to?
>
> I do not understand what you mean by this.
>
> > So basically slavery with extra steps and a  5% cut ...
>
> I do not understand what you mean by this. It is a service they offer
> so you do not have to take care of non-profits yourself. If you want
> to take care, great. But if you have lack of (human) resources to take
> care, then you can use their service. How is this slavery? It looks
> pretty voluntary to engage with them (do the degree of business
> partnerships being voluntary in our society).
>
>
> Mitar
>
> --
> http://mitar.tnode.com/
> https://twitter.com/mitar_m



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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Mitar]

Hi!

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 6:30 AM niftybunny
 wrote:
> Okay, I´ll bite. How do they solve this?

You can see the list of hosts they have here:

https://opencollective.com/hosts

> They have ready made non profits in Germany (eingetragener gemeinnütziger 
> Verein) that I can use and rename and you will take care of it?

You do not rename. They are just fiscal sponsor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_sponsorship

That process is being abstracted by Open Collective.

> And the 6 people will be delivered to?

I do not understand what you mean by this.

> So basically slavery with extra steps and a  5% cut ...

I do not understand what you mean by this. It is a service they offer
so you do not have to take care of non-profits yourself. If you want
to take care, great. But if you have lack of (human) resources to take
care, then you can use their service. How is this slavery? It looks
pretty voluntary to engage with them (do the degree of business
partnerships being voluntary in our society).


Mitar

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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[niftybunny]

> 
> This is exactly what OpenCollective solves. They have a set of
> non-profits which act as host organizations and do all this fiscal
> work for you. You do not have to do any paperwork, any taxes, etc.
> Those non-profits take 5% for this work, but it does simplify this if
> the problem is in person-power to otherwise do this.

Okay, I´ll bite. How do they solve this? They have ready made non profits in 
Germany (eingetragener gemeinnütziger Verein) that I can use and rename and you 
will take care of it? And the 6 people will be delivered to?
So basically slavery with extra steps and a  5% cut ...

> 
> 
> Mitar
> 
> --
> http://mitar.tnode.com/
> https://twitter.com/mitar_m
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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Mitar]

Hi!

I do not want to repeat myself and I really do not care about Open
Collective too much (I am not affiliated with them in any way), but:

> For a German non profit (eingetragener gemeinnütziger Verein) you need at 
> least 7 people, lots of paperwork, going to your tax office, yearly mandatory 
> meetings etc.

This is exactly what OpenCollective solves. They have a set of
non-profits which act as host organizations and do all this fiscal
work for you. You do not have to do any paperwork, any taxes, etc.
Those non-profits take 5% for this work, but it does simplify this if
the problem is in person-power to otherwise do this.

> The problem (I think) is not the financial side.

Great. So then 5% + 5% they take to fix the problem mentioned above
could be a reasonable cost for such service. Then the only remaining
jobs would be:

* maintains the social contacts
* gives interviews

The running of nodes themselves would continue to be done by other people.

This is exactly why I brought Open Collective up. Because I have seen
in other projects that people generally like to solve technical things
(in this case that would be running fast Tor nodes) but not really do
the paper work. And Open Collective seems to solve the latter problem
so that you can focus on the former.


Mitar

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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[niftybunny]

The problem (I think) is not the financial side. For a German non profit 
(eingetragener gemeinnütziger Verein) you need at least 7 people, lots of 
paperwork, going to your tax office, yearly mandatory meetings etc.

And that’s only to fund a non profit. To run this you need a lot of  labor to 
keep it going. A bank account and some shiny virtual medals for donors is the 
least of my problems.


> On 2. Aug 2019, at 17:44, Mitar  wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Yes, running a non-profit for you is not free (accounting costs, at
> least). I think costs are explained well here:
> 
> https://docs.opencollective.com/help/about/pricing
> 
> You can install Open Collective software on your own server and having
> your own fiscal host, and then there are no costs (see the last
> example in "Examples" table). So if torservers already has a
> non-profit, we could just install as software on our own servers. But
> I think the question is: do we have volunteers to step up and do work
> so that we can have no or little overhead, or if not, we can use a
> cloud service, but it costs us then 10%. I was trying to show an
> option for the second approach. But if there are already people
> stepping up, feel free to ignore me.
> 
> Of course anyone else can host an instance with less platform
> overhead. Or you can create an association in Germany and then become
> a sponsor for Open Collective projects, but not require any fee,
> lowering the overhead to 5% SaaS fee only.
> 
> 
> Mitar
> 
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 4:49 AM niftybunny
>  wrote:
>> 
>> They want 10% ONLY for money transfer. This must be a joke. You can get a 
>> bank account for free in 5 minutes in Germany.
>> 
>>> On 2. Aug 2019, at 03:35, Mitar  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> But these days I am playing with an idea that
>>> https://opencollective.com/ might be something which would allow one
>>> to duplicate and replicate what torservers have done without having to
>>> struggle through all the bureaucracy of making your own association,
>>> bank accounts and so on.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Mitar
>>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Tim Niemeyer]

Hi

We don't need a funding platform. We need someone who
* maintains the social contacts
* gives interviews
* does the tax declaration
* ... and so on ...

Tim


Am Freitag, den 02.08.2019, 08:44 -0700 schrieb Mitar:
Hi!

Yes, running a non-profit for you is not free (accounting costs, at
least). I think costs are explained well here:

https://docs.opencollective.com/help/about/pricing

You can install Open Collective software on your own server and having
your own fiscal host, and then there are no costs (see the last
example in "Examples" table). So if torservers already has a
non-profit, we could just install as software on our own servers. But
I think the question is: do we have volunteers to step up and do work
so that we can have no or little overhead, or if not, we can use a
cloud service, but it costs us then 10%. I was trying to show an
option for the second approach. But if there are already people
stepping up, feel free to ignore me.

Of course anyone else can host an instance with less platform
overhead. Or you can create an association in Germany and then become
a sponsor for Open Collective projects, but not require any fee,
lowering the overhead to 5% SaaS fee only.


Mitar

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 4:49 AM niftybunny
<
abuse-cont...@to-surf-and-protect.net> wrote:


They want 10% ONLY for money transfer. This must be a joke. You can get a bank 
account for free in 5 minutes in Germany.


On 2. Aug 2019, at 03:35, Mitar <
mmi...@gmail.com> wrote:


But these days I am playing with an idea that
https://opencollective.com/ might be something which would allow one
to duplicate and replicate what torservers have done without having to
struggle through all the bureaucracy of making your own association,
bank accounts and so on.


Mitar



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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Mitar]

Hi!

Yes, running a non-profit for you is not free (accounting costs, at
least). I think costs are explained well here:

https://docs.opencollective.com/help/about/pricing

You can install Open Collective software on your own server and having
your own fiscal host, and then there are no costs (see the last
example in "Examples" table). So if torservers already has a
non-profit, we could just install as software on our own servers. But
I think the question is: do we have volunteers to step up and do work
so that we can have no or little overhead, or if not, we can use a
cloud service, but it costs us then 10%. I was trying to show an
option for the second approach. But if there are already people
stepping up, feel free to ignore me.

Of course anyone else can host an instance with less platform
overhead. Or you can create an association in Germany and then become
a sponsor for Open Collective projects, but not require any fee,
lowering the overhead to 5% SaaS fee only.


Mitar

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 4:49 AM niftybunny
 wrote:
>
> They want 10% ONLY for money transfer. This must be a joke. You can get a 
> bank account for free in 5 minutes in Germany.
>
> > On 2. Aug 2019, at 03:35, Mitar  wrote:
> >
> >
> > But these days I am playing with an idea that
> > https://opencollective.com/ might be something which would allow one
> > to duplicate and replicate what torservers have done without having to
> > struggle through all the bureaucracy of making your own association,
> > bank accounts and so on.
> >
> >
> > Mitar
> >
>
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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[niftybunny]

They want 10% ONLY for money transfer. This must be a joke. You can get a bank 
account for free in 5 minutes in Germany.

> On 2. Aug 2019, at 03:35, Mitar  wrote:
> 
> 
> But these days I am playing with an idea that
> https://opencollective.com/ might be something which would allow one
> to duplicate and replicate what torservers have done without having to
> struggle through all the bureaucracy of making your own association,
> bank accounts and so on.
> 
> 
> Mitar
> 



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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Mitar]

Hi!

Thanks for this update about torservers. I have been around when it
has started, but then got busy myself with other things.

But these days I am playing with an idea that
https://opencollective.com/ might be something which would allow one
to duplicate and replicate what torservers have done without having to
struggle through all the bureaucracy of making your own association,
bank accounts and so on.


Mitar

On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 2:58 AM Moritz Bartl  wrote:
>
> tl;dr: torservers.net needs a new home!
>
> I started torservers.net after a random chat at a local bar some time
> early 2010. I wore a Tor shirt, and the guy next to me asked if that was
> "The Onion", the satire magazine. He became pretty excited about Tor
> after I told him what it was about, opened his wallet and gave me a 100€
> bill "to put towards the network". Eventually it turned out that he was
> an Oracle software developer, so it's kind of funny to think about this
> as "one of the few good things Oracle has ever done".
>
> I thought about it for a bit, and then decided to take the money, which
> cemented the idea that I have had for quite some time: to get a more
> beefy machine to "properly" run a Tor exit, sharing the costs with others.
>
> Only a few days after I announced this idea on or-talk [1] in May 2010,
> some crazy Swede wired me another 1000€ (Thanks!). So, bad luck, I
> really had to do this now!
>
> I am still surprised at how successful the fundraising was. In fact,
> when we finally created a legal envelope of protection around me by
> starting the Zwiebelfreunde association in 2011, it was already clear
> that we needed to find others to do the same, instead of growing larger
> ourselves. The network was a lot different then, and some people tell me
> we had 80% of the overall exit capacity for quite some time after Olaf
> shut down his fast Blutmagie exit. So I went on a tour to inspire others.
>
> So, here we are, almost 10 years later, with 23 partner organizations in
> 15 countries. [2]
>
> After I got a "real job" in 2013 (that quickly grew into "more than
> full-time"), and at the same time the first grant money for
> torservers.net, we tried in many different ways to "recruit" others to
> "take over". Looking back, of course a lot of things happened and it was
> a crazy (and fun!) time, but long story short, until now nobody stepped
> up to take over the core role of a "coordinator" of activities. There
> are many many offers for help, and even more ideas of what
> torservers.net could do and be, but all people involved heavily at the
> beginning (Thanks!) don't have time to coordinate all the wonderful
> help, and do a proper handover. We tried a couple of times, only to
> spend a lot of time "training" a poor person to get them somewhat up to
> speed, but eventually everyone decided they had better things to do than
> to become frustrated at trying to walk blindly without much guidance.
> This is not an easy role to step into.
>
> If we take the May 2010 announcement as "launch date", the 10 years
> anniversary will be on May 10th, 2020. My dream would be to celebrate
> this with a fresh board at Zwiebelfreunde that has taken over the
> association, and another group that coordinates the international
> platform that torservers.net was meant to be(come).
>
> Of course we will not simply give away the domains and the legal entity
> and all our exit relays to just anyone. But, hm, yeah, truth is,
> probably almost anyone! ;-)
>
> For some years now, we've talked about the idea of a "relaunch". The
> most promising idea is to organize a proper Tor Relay Operators Retreat,
> maybe 50 people or so, with all the great people who have dedicated
> their lives to this project at some point, and all the great new folks
> who are as excited as all of us were back then about contributing to the
> Tor network. It would likely to be possible to convince Open Technology
> Fund or some other money source to sponsor travel and venue. I've always
> imagined this to happen in a nice "holiday" setting. At some point, I
> *will* go with a group of people to this fine venue [3], as an example
> of how this could look like.
>
> So far, I've tried to talk to individuals about it in smaller groups,
> and never announced it to the broader community in the way I do now.
> However, I still believe that this can only really be moved forward _in
> person_. I will do my best to ignore all mails you write to me or in
> this thread. Please write, coordinate, do everything that you think
> would be good to do to move this forward, but I don't really have the
> capacity to lead a good discussion. The only capacity I can offer is
> that we *need* someone to step up, and grab me at some event in
> meatspace. Ideally at that point that person is willing to have the A
> record pointed at some new place under their control, and we can begin
> the transition. Otherwise we will probably simply kill it for the 10
> years anniversary, and 

Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Mirimir]

On 05/12/2019 12:17 PM, Chris Kerr wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 May 2019 11:57:24 CEST Moritz Bartl wrote:



>> This is a call for help!



> I don't think I could do everything, nor would it be desirable for so much to 
> depend on one person. However, I am sure that there are a lot of things that 
> need to be done which are also within my capabilities.
> 
>> My dream would be to celebrate this with a fresh board at Zwiebelfreunde
>> that has taken over the association, and another group that coordinates the
>> international platform that torservers.net was meant to be(come).
> 
> It would be great to see something like this happen. Who else would like to 
> take part? Where else could we look for interested people? "grarpamp" 
> suggested:
>> So be sure to seek through CCC / WauH networks too.

I'd love to help, but I'm probably about as old as Moritz is. And far
less dependable. However, I could handle some short-term tasks.
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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Chris Kerr]

On Saturday, 4 May 2019 11:57:24 CEST Moritz Bartl wrote:
> The only capacity I can offer is that we *need* someone to step up, and grab 
> me at some event in meatspace. Ideally at that point that person is willing 
> to have the A record pointed at some new place under their control, and we 
> can begin the transition. Otherwise we will probably simply kill it for the
> 10 years anniversary, and finally make room for something new altogether.
> 
> This is a call for help!

I have been thinking about this for the past week (and hoping that someone 
else would step forward) and have come to the conclusion that:
(1) I care enough about internet freedom to sacrifice considerable amounts of 
my own time towards it, and
(2) if the alternative is letting torservers.net die, then helping out there 
is the best way I could use that time.

I don't think I could do everything, nor would it be desirable for so much to 
depend on one person. However, I am sure that there are a lot of things that 
need to be done which are also within my capabilities.

> My dream would be to celebrate this with a fresh board at Zwiebelfreunde
> that has taken over the association, and another group that coordinates the
> international platform that torservers.net was meant to be(come).

It would be great to see something like this happen. Who else would like to 
take part? Where else could we look for interested people? "grarpamp" 
suggested:
> So be sure to seek through CCC / WauH networks too.

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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[grarpamp]

On 5/7/19, Tyler Durden  wrote:
> It has been a hell of a ride

Yes :) Many of us remember day of torservers
beginning days, and or have taken part creating,
running, supporting, aligning with it over time.
Those sorts of big projects are no small undertaking.
Especially setting up of legal and funding elements.

That may be why it could take a while to find
and handoff to a next gen of maintainers...
as it keeping homed locally would certainly be
easier than trying to port those existing legal operations
over to other jurisdictions.

So be sure to seek through CCC / WauH
networks too.

Regardless, there will always be quite some
number of independant groups around world
working together to support overlay networks :)

Given ongoing worldwide adoption of cryptocurrency,
it might even be easier in some ways.
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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Ralph Seichter]

* Moritz Bartl:

> I send you and all the others who have been offering assistance
> warm greetings and a thank-you, but we need someone to step up as
> coordinator.

As I wrote last year, I would be willing to help Torservers, but
coordinator is not a role I want.

> Maybe the better option is indeed to just celebrate its 10 years of
> existence and kill it gracefully [...]

Based on your description, that might be the best solution. The more
complexity/ballast a project has accumulated, the harder it becomes
to find somebody to take over.

-Ralph
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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Tyler Durden]

I'm very sad to read this but I totally understand you. Running such an
organization is not easy and even a bit ungrateful. Never the less we
from FVDE want to thank you and everybody behind torservers.net and
Zwiebelfreunde e.V. It has been a hell of a ride and maybe you are right
and the retreat of one organization makes room for others to grow.


All the best
virii

Moritz Bartl:
> On 04.05.19 17:21, Ralph Seichter wrote:
>>> This is a call for help!
>> I offered to help last year, but my email to your support address did
>> not result in an answer, so I pretty much shrugged it off. I'm sure I
>> can find that message and forward it to you.
>>
>> -Ralph
> 
> Thank you. This is a good illustration of how this is broken, and how on
> all ends this just leads to frustration.
> 
> Your mails are still there waiting to be answered, together with lots of
> other mail, marked as unread. They were NOT ignored, just nobody found
> the time to answer them yet. I have literally hundreds of mail sitting
> in my inbox waiting be answered some day, many of them older than a year.
> 
> I send you and all the others who have been offering assistance warm
> greetings and a thank-you, but we need someone to step up as
> coordinator. All I can offer at this point is communication
> infrastructure so that a new group can form and self-coordinate, like
> our IRC channels (#torservers, #zwiebelfreunde), and our dormant mailing
> lists (e.g. https://www.freelists.org/list/torservers ).
> 
> Maybe the better option is indeed to just celebrate its 10 years of
> existence and kill it gracefully, to make room to let a new group form
> independently, instead of waiting for someone to inherit it together
> with the complexity and expectation to stick to the principles behind it.
> 
> Moritz
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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Moritz Bartl]

On 04.05.19 17:21, Ralph Seichter wrote:
>> This is a call for help!
> I offered to help last year, but my email to your support address did
> not result in an answer, so I pretty much shrugged it off. I'm sure I
> can find that message and forward it to you.
> 
> -Ralph

Thank you. This is a good illustration of how this is broken, and how on
all ends this just leads to frustration.

Your mails are still there waiting to be answered, together with lots of
other mail, marked as unread. They were NOT ignored, just nobody found
the time to answer them yet. I have literally hundreds of mail sitting
in my inbox waiting be answered some day, many of them older than a year.

I send you and all the others who have been offering assistance warm
greetings and a thank-you, but we need someone to step up as
coordinator. All I can offer at this point is communication
infrastructure so that a new group can form and self-coordinate, like
our IRC channels (#torservers, #zwiebelfreunde), and our dormant mailing
lists (e.g. https://www.freelists.org/list/torservers ).

Maybe the better option is indeed to just celebrate its 10 years of
existence and kill it gracefully, to make room to let a new group form
independently, instead of waiting for someone to inherit it together
with the complexity and expectation to stick to the principles behind it.

Moritz
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Re: [tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Ralph Seichter]

* Moritz Bartl:

> This is a call for help!

I offered to help last year, but my email to your support address did
not result in an answer, so I pretty much shrugged it off. I'm sure I
can find that message and forward it to you.

-Ralph
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[tor-relays] 10 Years Torservers.net: Death or Future?

[Moritz Bartl]

tl;dr: torservers.net needs a new home!

I started torservers.net after a random chat at a local bar some time
early 2010. I wore a Tor shirt, and the guy next to me asked if that was
"The Onion", the satire magazine. He became pretty excited about Tor
after I told him what it was about, opened his wallet and gave me a 100€
bill "to put towards the network". Eventually it turned out that he was
an Oracle software developer, so it's kind of funny to think about this
as "one of the few good things Oracle has ever done".

I thought about it for a bit, and then decided to take the money, which
cemented the idea that I have had for quite some time: to get a more
beefy machine to "properly" run a Tor exit, sharing the costs with others.

Only a few days after I announced this idea on or-talk [1] in May 2010,
some crazy Swede wired me another 1000€ (Thanks!). So, bad luck, I
really had to do this now!

I am still surprised at how successful the fundraising was. In fact,
when we finally created a legal envelope of protection around me by
starting the Zwiebelfreunde association in 2011, it was already clear
that we needed to find others to do the same, instead of growing larger
ourselves. The network was a lot different then, and some people tell me
we had 80% of the overall exit capacity for quite some time after Olaf
shut down his fast Blutmagie exit. So I went on a tour to inspire others.

So, here we are, almost 10 years later, with 23 partner organizations in
15 countries. [2]

After I got a "real job" in 2013 (that quickly grew into "more than
full-time"), and at the same time the first grant money for
torservers.net, we tried in many different ways to "recruit" others to
"take over". Looking back, of course a lot of things happened and it was
a crazy (and fun!) time, but long story short, until now nobody stepped
up to take over the core role of a "coordinator" of activities. There
are many many offers for help, and even more ideas of what
torservers.net could do and be, but all people involved heavily at the
beginning (Thanks!) don't have time to coordinate all the wonderful
help, and do a proper handover. We tried a couple of times, only to
spend a lot of time "training" a poor person to get them somewhat up to
speed, but eventually everyone decided they had better things to do than
to become frustrated at trying to walk blindly without much guidance.
This is not an easy role to step into.

If we take the May 2010 announcement as "launch date", the 10 years
anniversary will be on May 10th, 2020. My dream would be to celebrate
this with a fresh board at Zwiebelfreunde that has taken over the
association, and another group that coordinates the international
platform that torservers.net was meant to be(come).

Of course we will not simply give away the domains and the legal entity
and all our exit relays to just anyone. But, hm, yeah, truth is,
probably almost anyone! ;-)

For some years now, we've talked about the idea of a "relaunch". The
most promising idea is to organize a proper Tor Relay Operators Retreat,
maybe 50 people or so, with all the great people who have dedicated
their lives to this project at some point, and all the great new folks
who are as excited as all of us were back then about contributing to the
Tor network. It would likely to be possible to convince Open Technology
Fund or some other money source to sponsor travel and venue. I've always
imagined this to happen in a nice "holiday" setting. At some point, I
*will* go with a group of people to this fine venue [3], as an example
of how this could look like.

So far, I've tried to talk to individuals about it in smaller groups,
and never announced it to the broader community in the way I do now.
However, I still believe that this can only really be moved forward _in
person_. I will do my best to ignore all mails you write to me or in
this thread. Please write, coordinate, do everything that you think
would be good to do to move this forward, but I don't really have the
capacity to lead a good discussion. The only capacity I can offer is
that we *need* someone to step up, and grab me at some event in
meatspace. Ideally at that point that person is willing to have the A
record pointed at some new place under their control, and we can begin
the transition. Otherwise we will probably simply kill it for the 10
years anniversary, and finally make room for something new altogether.

This is a call for help!

Thanks. :-)

Moritz

P.S.: I will at some point soon post another mail about what I was up to
the past years, and what I will be up to in the next few years. Don't
worry, I'll still be around.

[1] http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/May-2010/msg00058.html
[2] https://torservers.net/partners.html
[3] For a real Tor Relay Retreat, we would need something larger, but I
think this gives you a pretty good idea of how I imagine it to look
like: https://www.homeaway.co.uk/p868562
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