Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 6/24/2004 10:01:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. -Richard Francis Burton, explorer and writer (1821-1890) He's back !! DAVEH: As I understand, I am posting this with Perry's blessing. If any TTers prefer that I not post such material, please advise. And they say there is no such thing as a reusrrection from the dead. Hello Dave H. Without Christ, that quote is 100% accurate. John -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
In a message dated 6/24/2004 10:01:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. -Richard Francis Burton, explorer and writer (1821-1890) He's back !! And they say there is no such thing as a reusrrection from the dead. Hello Dave H. Without Christ, that quote is 100% accurate. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
In a message dated 6/24/2004 9:52:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Damn ocrats? ahm. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Bonhoeffer, Hitler et al
In a message dated 6/24/2004 9:36:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: According to high ranking U.S. officials if it was not for American business interests (ALCOA, Standard Oil, Ford and many others) Hitler would have been a blip on the radar screen. The Iraqi war is no different. Just plain silly. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
In a message dated 6/24/2004 8:27:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The devil ... has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill I do not think that "lose of life" is an argument against pacifism if that belief (pacifism) is based on a sense of Divine directive. Of course pacifism will lead to lose of life, alla Christ and the Cross. The problem is seen (IMO) in a circumstance which would include "lose of life" for those who are not believers and/or are not pacifists. There are sound biblical arguments for pacifism (as well as against that belief). Look to President Carter (the best worsted president we ever had). He is and was a pacifist. Did you know that. A pacifist --- trying to command the respect of those who despise us, aggressively work toward our (America) destruction, and understand military might apart from all other considerations (love they neighbor, prayer, faith, turn the other cheek, etc). I do not believe that a Christian pacifist is qualified to serve as President of the United States. Pacifism can be said to "work" in the advancement of the Christian faith -- it will not work in a world of bullies and thugs and perverts. Why - I am asking myself this question (thinking out loud, here). And I would say that it is because the goals are different. The goal of this country among other issues is to survive and prosper. Neither of these is the goal of the Faith and they are not the issues because The Faith is God's idea and it is He. personally. who is opposed. He is the line of defense and thousands of years of success in this regard proves the point. Just thinking (carpenters do that once in a while) John
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. -Richard Francis Burton, explorer and writer (1821-1890) -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Lance Muir wrote: Terry:My 'Bonhoeffer' point was, that each much decide for himself. Much like the theologies expressed on TT. There is no one (1) right answer to which all must subscribe. The Bible cannot and must not be USED as either an ANSWER BOOK or a PROMISE BOOK. I guess we will never be in agreement on most anything Lance. Too many people are already deciding for themselves what is or is not the right thing to do.. The Bible is not only chock full of promises, but has most of the answers I need to guide me. I strongly suspect it has all the answers, if I could just see them as they are. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence JT > By the second century the early church was off into heresy BT: You've said this on numerous occasions, Judy: I am wondering, what was that heresy? JT > and when Constantine tried to blend church with state it made things much worse. BT: On the one hand, Constantine is to be thanked for putting an end to Roman sanctioned persecution of Christians; on the other hand, he opened the door to no end of violent crimes on the part of Christians against humanity -- whether it be in wars against their Christian brothers or against worldly opposition. And so, I agree with you -- in part. Nevertheless, I am surprised he is not your hero. Were it not for him, your doctrine may have still been consistent with the early NT church. JT > Paul exhorts his hearers to obey those who have been given Governmental authority Yes, you are right: he did. Please allow me to set a couple questions. The early church was under persecution, sometimes quite intense, throughout the Second and Third centuries. These Christians lived in Rome or Roman provinces. They were under Roman rule -- a rule which was truly tyrannical. Nevertheless, they did not consider it a Christian alternative to take up arms and fight for the right to govern themselves as they saw fit. In other words they did not seek to declare their independence from Rome and establish a separate nation of their own. Theirs was not a call to take up weapons: they were to take up their crosses daily.On the other hand, this is precisely the opposite of what our American forefathers found in the counsel they were receiving. They lived in English colonies, as English citizens, under English rule. Rather than live peaceably under the prescribed laws of their governing authorites, they cried tyrany, rebelled, declared their independence, took up arms, and in a bloodly war fought their way to nation status. All of this they did in and under the name of Christ.My question is this: If, as you rightly observe, Paul exhorts Christians to obey those who have been given Governmental authority, why was it a "Christian" thing to do for our founders to disobey those who had been given Governmental authority over them? (I would very much like an answer to this question -- and not only from you, but from Izzy also). If it was so clearly upon Christian principles that our nation was founded (a claim that Izzy and others here on TT are so fond of making), why did the Christians of less than one hundred years after the closing of the NT Canon not find those same "principles" inscriptuarated in their study? Why didn't those "principal" jump out to them as a strong point of consideration? Why did those principles not drive them to the same conclusions as our founding fathers? Why did they not fight to establish a country of their own, one wherein they could vote (to answer Izzy's indescretion) to uphold the supposedly Christian "rights" to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? JT > and it appears (at least once) that [Paul] valued and used his Roman citizenship to get himself out of trouble. BT: Yes, he did. And he did it in a non-violent way -- a difference which, in light of this discussion, I am noting. JT > Passivism early on led to monks, religious orders, quietism, pietism etc. BT: It was not early "passivism" which led to these things, Judy. These were all non-violent, post-Constantinian reactions to Constantinian "Christian" madness. JT > Do you see the "image of Christ" in any of them Bill? BT: Yes, to some extent, I do; however, not completely. These witnesses -- characteristically appealing primarily to the NT and the example of Jesus -- have spoken out firmly against all war and killing and have declared such practices incompatible with following Jesus. In this they are to be admired and do reflect the "image of Christ." Nevertheless, as movements they all moved away from Christ and into insignificance the more they removed themselves from participation in the world. Never as Christians are we called to enact a fortress mentality. Allow me to state the obvious: history teaches that violence simply begets violence. The long history of Christian "just wars" has wrought suffering past all telling. Might it be that reason and sad experience could disabuse us (read Christians) of the hope that we can approximate God's justice through killing? Reason must be healed and taught by Scripture, and our experience must be transformed by the renewing of our minds in conformity with the mind of Christ. Only thus can Christians overcome their Constantinian warring madness. And let me clearly state that the reasons for choosing Jusus' way of peacemaking are not prudential. In cal
Re: [TruthTalk] Good morning, Terry et al
Christopher My Man:Glad to see you come out of your shell and express an opinion for a change. - Original Message - From: Chris Barr To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 11:13 Subject: [TruthTalk] Good morning, Terry et al \o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings Terry in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! Your 'Christians and violence' post was the last TT post I read ... been busy ... I think I can pretty well guess the direction of the answers you've been receiving and that my perspective is not the majority view (SURPRISE -- not). I am an ambassador for Messiah as are you in accordance with II Corinthians 5:20 if you are His. As the old song goes, 'This world is not my home, I'm just passin' through.' The zeal for war amongst Christians is as Rav Shaul/Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 10:2. The Saviour said, "My Kingdom is not of this world: if My Kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight" (John 18:36). Ambassadors are representatives of The Kingdom which they represent. They neither fight nor vote. Peter drew a sword and The Saviour rebuked him. "ALL they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." The last possibly just war fought on American soil was that of 1812. All the rest have been imperialistic and primarily for business reasons. This nation will be judged by The Almighty for its exceeding wickedness ... is being judged now ... more to come. I look forward to it and the sooner coming return of The King of kings to make it all right. THEN I will fight! Until then I pray and represent The Kingdom (Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will Be Done, IN EARTH as in heaven). This nation and its current administration are as far away from heaven as has ever been. Remember 9/11? (That's a rhetorical question.) Due to 9/11, we travelled out of state to meet with one hungry teenager (previously a fence-sitter). We had been counselling her by e-mail and phone. We had never been to this place before. The Holy Spirit had people literally walking up to us asking us to pray with them, come home with them for counsel, etc. We ended up ALL DAY LONG in this place teaching people who had never heard of Sabbath and other precious truths, teaching on such things and a hearty message for REPENTANCE! YET, on the way home, ONLY TWO DAYS after the 9/11 event, we passed by 'The Call of The Wild' on the highway. A VERY LARGE STRIP JOINT with parking lot filled to overflowing. Mourning? Day of Prayer the next day? Ball games cancelled? STRIP JOINT DOING A BOOMING BUSINESS! By the way, this strip joint advertised on the local 'Dr. Laura' program. I faxed her TWICE about it but it continues. Oh, well. IF AMERICA DOES NOT WAKE UP AND REPENT THEN THERE IS MUCH WORSE COMING! God Bless America? THAT'S BACKWARDS ... GET IT RIGHT ...AMERICA BLESS Yah! Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, (Bless The LORD) Chris Barr a servant of YHVH
Re: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! - Original Message - From: Lance Muir Sent: 06/23/2004 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom No justice system is truly just. This is partly true due to the reality that those empowered to administer the 'system' are themselves 'bent'. Amein. Case in point: Almost a year ago one posted an extensive list of lies and false accusations against me (the list was almost as long as that one is wicked). I wrote those empowered to administer the 'system' inquiring, "Would you like for me to refute each and every one of [these] deceptions and lies on TruthTalk? I can but somehow I don't think you want that." Many had/have been rebuked by those empowered to administer the 'system' for MUCH less (myself included). Yet those empowered to administer the 'system' let it go without reproof or rebuke. Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, (Bless The LORD) Chris Barr a servant of YHVH
[TruthTalk] Willing to make the sacrifice
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! > What do you propose ChrisB - that all international business should stop immediately and this will put a stop to war? Maybe our leaders should employ a team of wise men like Nebuchadnezzar had to help them understand and deal with these things. ChrisB: I'm available. Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, (Bless The LORD) Chris Barr a servant of YHVH
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Hi Judy, You have probably made the following comment about 7 or 8 times since I have been on TruthTalk: "By the second century the early church was off into heresy." Could you please qualify this with full text references to second century heresies that you are concerned with? I would like to see what you come up with. And to answer your question to Bill, yes I do see the image of Christ all over the place in the orders you mention. You seem to be completely ignorant of the fact that you would not be "Judy the Christian" as you are without the church fathers and the orders that developed throughout our history. The debt you owe them is immeasurable. The eyes you read scripture with every day are not fresh eyes (none of us has fresh eyes); rather, they are eyes that have learned both wrongly and rightly from what has gone on before. Surely you do not believe that your faith has been created in a vacuum? It appears that you actually believe that you would believe exactly as you do if you were the first person to pick up the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit to speak through its words. What you believe is a mixture of the Holy Spirit and two thousand years of tradition and 'readings' with favour given to some strands over others. Jonathan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 12:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence By the second century the early church was off into heresy and when Constantine tried to blend church with state it made things much worse. Paul exhorts his hearers to obey those who have been given Governmental authority and it appears (at least once) that he valued and used his Roman citizenship to get himself out of trouble. Passivism early on led to monks, religious orders, quietism, pietism etc. Do you see the "image of Christ" in any of them Bill?
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 06/24/2004 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence > > Bill:> > Why would you call the Third Reich "Christian?" Now there's a giant illogical leap. Bill addressed individuals in Hitler's army and jt turned that into 'the Third Reich'. Do you suppose that Bush's army only consists of Reprobaticans and no Damnocrats? > Do you know much about what was involved in being a member of the German Army during WW2. I do. My father-in-law was an officer in the German Army. They were mostly just folks (like today's U.S. Army). They were driven by nationalism (like today's U.S. Army). They had bad apples (like today's U.S. Army). Their S.S. abused and even killed people (like today's "intelligence" officers http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&e=4&u=/nm/iraq_abuse_dc and U.S. Army personnel). They were devoted to their Fuhrer (like today's U.S. Army). Patriotism is idolatry. I close as did another Beloved Apostle: "Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amein." (I John 5:21) Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, (Bless The LORD) Chris Barr a servant of YHVH
Re: [TruthTalk] Bonhoeffer, Hitler et al
What do you propose ChrisB - that all international business should stop immediately and this will put a stop to war? Maybe our leaders should employ a team of wise men like Nebuchadnezzar had to help them understand and deal with these things. Now the US will be blamed for Hitler also. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
By the second century the early church was off into heresy and when Constantine tried to blend church with state it made things much worse. Paul exhorts his hearers to obey those who have been given Governmental authority and it appears (at least once) that he valued and used his Roman citizenship to get himself out of trouble. Passivism early on led to monks, religious orders, quietism, pietism etc. Do you see the "image of Christ" in any of them Bill? -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Bonhoeffer, Hitler et al
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! Bonhoeffer was wrong. Hitler was a PUPPET. According to high ranking U.S. officials if it was not for American business interests (ALCOA, Standard Oil, Ford and many others) Hitler would have been a blip on the radar screen. The Iraqi war is no different. Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, (Bless The LORD) Chris Barr a servant of YHVH
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Judy, Hitler's army was made up of German citizens. Those citizens were members of one or the other of Germany's churches. They were baptized Christian. Why didn't those baptized "Christians" refuse to fight? As for you comment, "I know Hitler made a Concordat with Pope Pius but that does not make either of them Christian." It's smoke and mirrors, Judy, and you know it. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence > > Bill: > > Why would you call the Third Reich "Christian?" They were into all kinds of occult practices. Do you know much about what was involved in being a member of the German Army during WW2. I know Hitler made a Concordat with Pope Pius but that does not make either of them Christian. > > Grace and Peace, judyt > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Bill: Why would you call the Third Reich "Christian?" They were into all kinds of occult practices. Do you know much about what was involved in being a member of the German Army during WW2. I know Hitler made a Concordat with Pope Pius but that does not make either of them Christian. Grace and Peace, judyt -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Passive a-political dreamer
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily Sent: 06/23/2004 5:56 PM We are GIVING our nation to the godless by being passive a-political dreamers! Wake up!!! Izzy Matthew 26:51-54 Wake up, Izzy!!! Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, (Bless The LORD) Chris Barr a servant of YHVH
[TruthTalk] LANCE ... Now who's being overly simplistic
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! - Original Message - From: Lance Muir Sent: 06/23/2004 8:49 AM I'm off to a 90 minute visit to the beloved dentist. Why? I didn't take adequate care. Nothing complicated there. Going to the dentist shows you still are not taking adequate care. I haven't been to the dentist FOR YEARS. The right combination of herb compounds and minerals stops dental problems DEAD in their tracks. Have taught this to others who have had the same success. Takes less time and money than the dentist. Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, (Bless The LORD) Chris Barr a servant of YHVH
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
The devil ... has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. I wonder how many Jewish lives pacifism would have cost if every Christian in Germany would have taken Paul's words seriously and refused to fight in Hitler's army? Maybe when Paul said to Christians, "The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world," he meant it. No, Judy, it was Christian militancy that cost the Jews "a lot of lives." Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:02 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have any examples of how it has helped in the world at large? The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for him to walk on and he has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. jt [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option. From: Judy Taylor Terry writes: Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and this will eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages. There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believer chooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace, Judy
[TruthTalk] Good morning, Terry et al
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings Terry in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! Your 'Christians and violence' post was the last TT post I read ... been busy ... I think I can pretty well guess the direction of the answers you've been receiving and that my perspective is not the majority view (SURPRISE -- not). I am an ambassador for Messiah as are you in accordance with II Corinthians 5:20 if you are His. As the old song goes, 'This world is not my home, I'm just passin' through.' The zeal for war amongst Christians is as Rav Shaul/Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 10:2. The Saviour said, "My Kingdom is not of this world: if My Kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight" (John 18:36). Ambassadors are representatives of The Kingdom which they represent. They neither fight nor vote. Peter drew a sword and The Saviour rebuked him. "ALL they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." The last possibly just war fought on American soil was that of 1812. All the rest have been imperialistic and primarily for business reasons. This nation will be judged by The Almighty for its exceeding wickedness ... is being judged now ... more to come. I look forward to it and the sooner coming return of The King of kings to make it all right. THEN I will fight! Until then I pray and represent The Kingdom (Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will Be Done, IN EARTH as in heaven). This nation and its current administration are as far away from heaven as has ever been. Remember 9/11? (That's a rhetorical question.) Due to 9/11, we travelled out of state to meet with one hungry teenager (previously a fence-sitter). We had been counselling her by e-mail and phone. We had never been to this place before. The Holy Spirit had people literally walking up to us asking us to pray with them, come home with them for counsel, etc. We ended up ALL DAY LONG in this place teaching people who had never heard of Sabbath and other precious truths, teaching on such things and a hearty message for REPENTANCE! YET, on the way home, ONLY TWO DAYS after the 9/11 event, we passed by 'The Call of The Wild' on the highway. A VERY LARGE STRIP JOINT with parking lot filled to overflowing. Mourning? Day of Prayer the next day? Ball games cancelled? STRIP JOINT DOING A BOOMING BUSINESS! By the way, this strip joint advertised on the local 'Dr. Laura' program. I faxed her TWICE about it but it continues. Oh, well. IF AMERICA DOES NOT WAKE UP AND REPENT THEN THERE IS MUCH WORSE COMING! God Bless America? THAT'S BACKWARDS ... GET IT RIGHT ...AMERICA BLESS Yah! Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, (Bless The LORD) Chris Barr a servant of YHVH
RE: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Lance, the confusion always comes when we confuse God’s commandments on an individual/personal level with God’s authority given to governing bodies. Yes, of course it is okay to fight as a soldier. No it is not okay to fight as an individual, UNLESS it is in self-defense (who would not protect himself or his family from an intruder, for example?). Turn the other cheek to him who smites you on the cheek ie: personal insult. And no, we cannot always please God and men. But God is not displeased when we fight nobly in the service of our nation. If we disagree with the morality of the war in this country we can always be conscientious objectors. Izzy We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
If I murder someone, I think that's wrong, as it says in the Commandments. If I kill someone, in self-defense, I think it's different. I think there is a difference. I wonder why the early church did not see it that way? Maybe they didn't hear God's voice telling them to kill people. - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 6:33 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Good questions. I think there's a difference between "kill" and murder. God did tell His people to kill others in Scripture, but that was God, not man. If I murder someone, I think that's wrong, as it says in the Commandments. If I kill someone, in self-defense, I think it's different. I think there is a difference. Regarding your question on if we can live to please both God and man...I don't think so. I think this is why we have so many problems today. We began to please man (and ourselves) and not God. People are persecuted today for refusing to please man. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, 24 June, 2004 08:22To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: PROBABLE SPAM> Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence May I say that everything that both you and Izzy said in response to my post was on target. I appreciate both of you and thank you for giving me things to consider. ( There is a time for war, and a time for peace. There will be wars and rumors of wars until our Lord returns as a mighty warrior and judge. God deals with reality, we are still growing, still being conformed.God has given government the responsibility for protecting it's people, etc.)Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then?Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom
If you understood the 10 Commandments you would realize that they do protect everyone’s rights. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 4:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom Izzy:When one lives in an increasingly pluralist country you've got to grant to all groups that which you grant to the one. So, keep the 10 com then, provide the same platform to each new and ascending voice in your nation. PS:Prior to looking around for a stone to throw. Think about the meaning of what's just been said and what's meant by it. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 18:56 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom Agreed. Only when a nation is under God’s (Ten Commandments) laws can justice be administered justly. That’s the problem here; God is being eroded everywhere by folks who think that politics and morality don’t mix. We are GIVING our nation to the godless by being passive a-political dreamers! Wake up!!! Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 2:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom No justice system is truly just. This is partly true due to the reality that those empowered to administer the 'system' are themselves 'bent'. - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 16:36 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom Some people right here in America are arrested for things just as foolish. Some people are held in jail for months for no reason. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Wednesday, 23 June, 2004 15:54 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom Would we like to live under this kind of oppression? Being beaten and arrested for this kind of foolishness. What's wrong with peace through strength Lance? Now that your tooth is OK you should be able to think. jt Snip
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
John:Me too. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 09:30 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence In a message dated 6/24/2004 6:22:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: wonder how many TT'ers favor the death penalty?On merit, it is ok. In practice - absolutely not until we figure out how not to send innocent folk to the death row. DNA has caused me to change my mind about the death penaly. It is painful for me to imagine an innocent man being put to death -- and it has happened as number of times. John Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
In a message dated 6/24/2004 6:22:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: wonder how many TT'ers favor the death penalty? On merit, it is ok. In practice - absolutely not until we figure out how not to send innocent folk to the death row. DNA has caused me to change my mind about the death penaly. It is painful for me to imagine an innocent man being put to death -- and it has happened as number of times. John Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Judy:In this(spiritual warfare) I believe you to be correct. However, in the other (just plain warfare) it is an option. Many Christians have chosen this road. This is a reflection of their conscience before God. Many in the early years of the church chose this route. I wonder how many TT'ers favor the death penalty? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 09:02 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have any examples of how it has helped in the world at large? The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for him to walk on and he has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. jt [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option. From: Judy Taylor Terry writes: Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and this will eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages. There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believer chooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace, Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
In a message dated 6/24/2004 6:04:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have any examples of how it has helped in the world at large? I took Lance's remark as a comment regarding the physical world. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
In a message dated 6/24/2004 5:52:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Bible cannot and must not be USED as either an ANSWER BOOK or a PROMISE BOOK. Lance, if you are voicing an opinion against viewing the Bible as a book of formulae, I very much agree. principles - yes; formula, no. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Well done. John In a message dated 6/24/2004 4:21:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Good Morning All: Terry - I've given your question a lot of thought over the years since we were a military family when the Lord got my attention once more on Adak AK and I began to seriously study His Word in order to learn His ways. We know that He hates divorce, yet he allowed Moses to give a bill of divorcement under the Old Covenant because of the hardness of men's hearts. So God is a realist and He knows our frame. We will not be free from wars and rumors of wars until Jesus returns and from that point on He (Jesus) will be the one ruling with a rod of iron - at which point in time there will be peace. When we commit to follow Jesus and choose His Kingdom over the kingdoms of this world we do not become perfected immediately. Salvation is actually a walk of grace during which our minds are renewed and our behavior changed until we are conformed to the image of Christ (not just metaphorically, or figuratively, but literally) because He will not have a bunch of people who think like devils ruling with Him during the new millenium. There are no exhortations to free slaves in scripture, and yet we can be sure that God does not endorse slavery. As you (Terry) point out there were also no lectures to Centurians to get out of the Roman Army by Jesus, Paul, or any of the other apostles. Our responsibility here (from what I understand) is to judge ourselves and to deal with our own issues, (so that He will not have to judge us in that day); and to be a light for Him to those around us. God (who knows the beginning from the end) can handle the world system; He has not made us responsible to fix it or to judge it... just to be lights in it, love people, and stay free from debt to both God and man. Grace and Peace, Judyt
[TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
It's not a viable option in the spiritual warfare. Do you have any examples of how it has helped in the world at large? The devil is pleased when we make our backs a broad road for him to walk on and he has on occasion controlled men in positions of authority. Hitler is one example and the Jews pacifistic response to him cost them a lot of lives. jt From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option. From: Judy Taylor Terry writes: Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and this will eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages. There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believer chooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace, Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Judy:Pacifissism is a viable option. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 08:38 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and Violence Terry writes: Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and this will eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages. There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believer chooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace, Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Terry:My 'Bonhoeffer' point was, that each much decide for himself. Much like the theologies expressed on TT. There is no one (1) right answer to which all must subscribe. The Bible cannot and must not be USED as either an ANSWER BOOK or a PROMISE BOOK. Once again, I must ask that respondents think before writing. O Ya? just doesn't cut it. - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 08:22 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Lance Muir wrote: Judy:Well said. You might be seen, on occasion, as a modern day "Church Mother". (Amma Judy) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 07:19 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Good Morning All: Terry - I've given your question a lot of thought over the years since we were a military family when the Lord got my attention once more on Adak AK and I began to seriously study His Word in order to learn His ways. We know that He hates divorce, yet he allowed Moses to give a bill of divorcement under the Old Covenant because of the hardness of men's hearts. So God is a realist and He knows our frame. We will not be free from wars and rumors of wars until Jesus returns and from that point on He (Jesus) will be the one ruling with a rod of iron - at which point in time there will be peace. When we commit to follow Jesus and choose His Kingdom over the kingdoms of this world we do not become perfected immediately. Salvation is actually a walk of grace during which our minds are renewed and our behavior changed until we are conformed to the image of Christ (not just metaphorically, or figuratively, but literally) because He will not have a bunch of people who think like devils ruling with Him during the new millenium. There are no exhortations to free slaves in scripture, and yet we can be sure that God does not endorse slavery. As you (Terry) point out there were also no lectures to Centurians to get out of the Roman Army by Jesus, Paul, or any of the other apostles. Our responsibility here (from what I understand) is to judge ourselves and to deal with our own issues, (so that He will not have to judge us in that day); and to be a light for Him to those around us. God (who knows the beginning from the end) can handle the world system; He has not made us responsible to fix it or to judge it... just to be lights in it, love people, and stay free from debt to both God and man. Grace and Peace, Judyt == Mornin' Judy:May I say that everything that both you and Izzy said in response to my post was on target. I appreciate both of you and thank you for giving me things to consider. ( There is a time for war, and a time for peace. There will be wars and rumors of wars until our Lord returns as a mighty warrior and judge. God deals with reality, we are still growing, still being conformed. God has given government the responsibility for protecting it's people, etc.)Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then?Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry
[TruthTalk] Christians and Violence
Terry writes: Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry jt: We judge sin in ourselves and repent of it daily which is the process of sanctification and this will eventually purify our whole being, spirit, soul, and body. There were many, many Christians in the Navy while we were there, in fact, without the example of their godly behavior I might never have chosen to return. If our country had gone to war during those years we would have been involved. So long as we are not the aggressor I don't believe it wrong for our leaders to defend us. As for Iraq, I know there are those who do not agree but I see it as part of the "war on Terror" a war that still rages. There are Christian police officers who may some day have to shoot and prison guards who are also Christian. I've done temporary work and have been able to discern believers by their conduct in every place I've been sent to. They are not the majority but they are there as works in progress and this, IMO, is the way God would have it because these are His ambassadors. Just ordinary every day people. I don't think a true believer chooses violence but a man should defend his family and a decent leader defends his people. Grace and Peace, Judy
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Good questions. I think there's a difference between "kill" and murder. God did tell His people to kill others in Scripture, but that was God, not man. If I murder someone, I think that's wrong, as it says in the Commandments. If I kill someone, in self-defense, I think it's different. I think there is a difference. Regarding your question on if we can live to please both God and man...I don't think so. I think this is why we have so many problems today. We began to please man (and ourselves) and not God. People are persecuted today for refusing to please man. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, 24 June, 2004 08:22To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: PROBABLE SPAM> Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence May I say that everything that both you and Izzy said in response to my post was on target. I appreciate both of you and thank you for giving me things to consider. ( There is a time for war, and a time for peace. There will be wars and rumors of wars until our Lord returns as a mighty warrior and judge. God deals with reality, we are still growing, still being conformed.God has given government the responsibility for protecting it's people, etc.)Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then?Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Lance Muir wrote: Judy:Well said. You might be seen, on occasion, as a modern day "Church Mother". (Amma Judy) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 07:19 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Good Morning All: Terry - I've given your question a lot of thought over the years since we were a military family when the Lord got my attention once more on Adak AK and I began to seriously study His Word in order to learn His ways. We know that He hates divorce, yet he allowed Moses to give a bill of divorcement under the Old Covenant because of the hardness of men's hearts. So God is a realist and He knows our frame. We will not be free from wars and rumors of wars until Jesus returns and from that point on He (Jesus) will be the one ruling with a rod of iron - at which point in time there will be peace. When we commit to follow Jesus and choose His Kingdom over the kingdoms of this world we do not become perfected immediately. Salvation is actually a walk of grace during which our minds are renewed and our behavior changed until we are conformed to the image of Christ (not just metaphorically, or figuratively, but literally) because He will not have a bunch of people who think like devils ruling with Him during the new millenium. There are no exhortations to free slaves in scripture, and yet we can be sure that God does not endorse slavery. As you (Terry) point out there were also no lectures to Centurians to get out of the Roman Army by Jesus, Paul, or any of the other apostles. Our responsibility here (from what I understand) is to judge ourselves and to deal with our own issues, (so that He will not have to judge us in that day); and to be a light for Him to those around us. God (who knows the beginning from the end) can handle the world system; He has not made us responsible to fix it or to judge it... just to be lights in it, love people, and stay free from debt to both God and man. Grace and Peace, Judyt == Mornin' Judy: May I say that everything that both you and Izzy said in response to my post was on target. I appreciate both of you and thank you for giving me things to consider. ( There is a time for war, and a time for peace. There will be wars and rumors of wars until our Lord returns as a mighty warrior and judge. God deals with reality, we are still growing, still being conformed. God has given government the responsibility for protecting it's people, etc.) Still, the real question has not been addressed. We know what happens when the Lord returns, but what do we do until then? Do we take our place and kill the enemy if that is what our government decides is right, or do we love our enemy and turn the other cheek? Does it make any difference if we are the agressor or if we act in self defense? Can we live to please God and men? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Judy:Well said. You might be seen, on occasion, as a modern day "Church Mother". (Amma Judy) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 07:19 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christians and violence Good Morning All: Terry - I've given your question a lot of thought over the years since we were a military family when the Lord got my attention once more on Adak AK and I began to seriously study His Word in order to learn His ways. We know that He hates divorce, yet he allowed Moses to give a bill of divorcement under the Old Covenant because of the hardness of men's hearts. So God is a realist and He knows our frame. We will not be free from wars and rumors of wars until Jesus returns and from that point on He (Jesus) will be the one ruling with a rod of iron - at which point in time there will be peace. When we commit to follow Jesus and choose His Kingdom over the kingdoms of this world we do not become perfected immediately. Salvation is actually a walk of grace during which our minds are renewed and our behavior changed until we are conformed to the image of Christ (not just metaphorically, or figuratively, but literally) because He will not have a bunch of people who think like devils ruling with Him during the new millenium. There are no exhortations to free slaves in scripture, and yet we can be sure that God does not endorse slavery. As you (Terry) point out there were also no lectures to Centurians to get out of the Roman Army by Jesus, Paul, or any of the other apostles. Our responsibility here (from what I understand) is to judge ourselves and to deal with our own issues, (so that He will not have to judge us in that day); and to be a light for Him to those around us. God (who knows the beginning from the end) can handle the world system; He has not made us responsible to fix it or to judge it... just to be lights in it, love people, and stay free from debt to both God and man. Grace and Peace, Judyt From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Good morning family:Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased.There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased.There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God.This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him.Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says "I hate divorce". He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,"Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense.Your thoughts please, with verses if possible.I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom
Judy:You'll never see that under Islam. You HAVE TO SEE IT in your country. This is the nature of a republic. You'll see much more of it in the future. People will start to run for office and, will have the constituency to be elected. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 24, 2004 07:25 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom Lance, This is present day policy in the US; that is why a school in CA allowed students to wear what is essentially the HAMAS flag on a sash at one of their official functions. I'd like to see that under Islam. Noone here is throwing stones; but facts are facts and truth is truth. This is Truth Talk is it not? judyt From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Izzy:When one lives in an increasingly pluralist country you've got to grant to all groups that which you grant to the one. So, keep the 10 com then, provide the same platform to each new and ascending voice in your nation. PS:Prior to looking around for a stone to throw. Think about the meaning of what's just been said and what's meant by it. From: ShieldsFamily Agreed. Only when a nation is under Gods (Ten Commandments) laws can justice be administered justly. Thats the problem here; God is being eroded everywhere by folks who think that politics and morality dont mix. We are GIVING our nation to the godless by being passive a-political dreamers! Wake up!!! Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 2:48 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom No justice system is truly just. This is partly true due to the reality that those empowered to administer the 'system' are themselves 'bent'. - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 16:36 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom Some people right here in America are arrested for things just as foolish. Some people are held in jail for months for no reason. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Wednesday, 23 June, 2004 15:54To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom Would we like to live under this kind of oppression? Being beaten and arrested for this kind of foolishness. What's wrong with peace through strength Lance? Now that your tooth is OK you should be able to think. jt Snip
[TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom
Lance, This is present day policy in the US; that is why a school in CA allowed students to wear what is essentially the HAMAS flag on a sash at one of their official functions. I'd like to see that under Islam. Noone here is throwing stones; but facts are facts and truth is truth. This is Truth Talk is it not? judyt From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Izzy:When one lives in an increasingly pluralist country you've got to grant to all groups that which you grant to the one. So, keep the 10 com then, provide the same platform to each new and ascending voice in your nation. PS:Prior to looking around for a stone to throw. Think about the meaning of what's just been said and what's meant by it. From: ShieldsFamily Agreed. Only when a nation is under Gods (Ten Commandments) laws can justice be administered justly. Thats the problem here; God is being eroded everywhere by folks who think that politics and morality dont mix. We are GIVING our nation to the godless by being passive a-political dreamers! Wake up!!! Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 2:48 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom No justice system is truly just. This is partly true due to the reality that those empowered to administer the 'system' are themselves 'bent'. - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 16:36 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom Some people right here in America are arrested for things just as foolish. Some people are held in jail for months for no reason. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Wednesday, 23 June, 2004 15:54To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom Would we like to live under this kind of oppression? Being beaten and arrested for this kind of foolishness. What's wrong with peace through strength Lance? Now that your tooth is OK you should be able to think. jt Snip
[TruthTalk] Christians and violence
Good Morning All: Terry - I've given your question a lot of thought over the years since we were a military family when the Lord got my attention once more on Adak AK and I began to seriously study His Word in order to learn His ways. We know that He hates divorce, yet he allowed Moses to give a bill of divorcement under the Old Covenant because of the hardness of men's hearts. So God is a realist and He knows our frame. We will not be free from wars and rumors of wars until Jesus returns and from that point on He (Jesus) will be the one ruling with a rod of iron - at which point in time there will be peace. When we commit to follow Jesus and choose His Kingdom over the kingdoms of this world we do not become perfected immediately. Salvation is actually a walk of grace during which our minds are renewed and our behavior changed until we are conformed to the image of Christ (not just metaphorically, or figuratively, but literally) because He will not have a bunch of people who think like devils ruling with Him during the new millenium. There are no exhortations to free slaves in scripture, and yet we can be sure that God does not endorse slavery. As you (Terry) point out there were also no lectures to Centurians to get out of the Roman Army by Jesus, Paul, or any of the other apostles. Our responsibility here (from what I understand) is to judge ourselves and to deal with our own issues, (so that He will not have to judge us in that day); and to be a light for Him to those around us. God (who knows the beginning from the end) can handle the world system; He has not made us responsible to fix it or to judge it... just to be lights in it, love people, and stay free from debt to both God and man. Grace and Peace, Judyt From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Good morning family:Let me start by saying that there are things I know to do and when I do them God is pleased.There are things I think that I should do because I think God would be pleased.There are things I dare not do because I know it would not please God.This is called fundamentalist by some. Others call it legalism. I call it denying self and following Him.Whatever it is called, it works well when you have the answers. It even works fairly well when you think you have the answers. The big problem comes when you have a desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord, but you are not certain how to do it. He plainly says "I hate divorce". He commands us not to steal. or covet. or commit adultery. No gray areas. Easy to follow instructions. Do what He says. Don't do what He hates.. Then we go to war! Bill reopened this can of worms for me a couple of days back. Judy responded to it. Both made some points, some good points, yet I was left wondering, as I have been for a long time, as to just what God expects of His people in time of war. Jesus and Peter and Paul all dealt with military men . A couple of centurions and a prison guard as I remember. None of them were told to give up their careers as a condition of salvation, so it would seem that there is a place for Christians in the military. Still, I cannot picture Jesus leading a bayonet charge. He said,"Love your enemy-do good to those who hate you-turn the other cheek. Somehow, this all has to fit together or it makes no sense.Your thoughts please, with verses if possible.I would appreciate hearing, even if, like me, you don't have the answer. Terry --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom
Izzy:When one lives in an increasingly pluralist country you've got to grant to all groups that which you grant to the one. So, keep the 10 com then, provide the same platform to each new and ascending voice in your nation. PS:Prior to looking around for a stone to throw. Think about the meaning of what's just been said and what's meant by it. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 18:56 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom Agreed. Only when a nation is under Gods (Ten Commandments) laws can justice be administered justly. Thats the problem here; God is being eroded everywhere by folks who think that politics and morality dont mix. We are GIVING our nation to the godless by being passive a-political dreamers! Wake up!!! Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 2:48 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom No justice system is truly just. This is partly true due to the reality that those empowered to administer the 'system' are themselves 'bent'. - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 16:36 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom Some people right here in America are arrested for things just as foolish. Some people are held in jail for months for no reason. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Wednesday, 23 June, 2004 15:54To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [TruthTalk] Fighting for liberty and freedom Would we like to live under this kind of oppression? Being beaten and arrested for this kind of foolishness. What's wrong with peace through strength Lance? Now that your tooth is OK you should be able to think. jt Snip
Re: [TruthTalk] On how to win the war
The 'Tasmanians'? Even the Canadian could 'handle' them. FYI Understanding the Koran-A Quick Christian Guide to the Muslim Holy Book (2004) Whose Religion is Christianity?-The Gospel Beyond the West (2003) Jesus and Muhammad (2004) - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 23, 2004 19:51 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] On how to win the war [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 6/22/2004 10:27:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lance MuirDo you, indeed does anyone, have an answer to John's very important question?:"a plan for dealing with those who are bent on our physical harm and intend to accomplish this in the very near future" ---The enemy does not consist of a hand full of camel jockeys turned bad. Our enemy is every worshiper of a false god called Allah. They are taught to hate from the time they leave the cradle, and the only way any Muslim can ever be certain of going to Heaven is to die a martyr's death. In spite of this, neither Christians nor liberals would agree to exterminating this group, and short of total extermination, there is no sure solution.Just as well. If we got rid of them, then Satan would raise up the Chinese, or the Tasmanians, or some such to take their place, and we would have to start over again.That's why the Bible is such a comfort to believers. Because so many prophecies have already come true, we know that those still to be fulfilled will also come true, and those prophecies tell us ahead of time how the story ends. We win, though those that are the winners are not necessarily American, or caucasian, or Klingons.Terry
