[TruthTalk] Fw: Movies page
- Original Message - From: John D Wilson To: Lance Muir Sent: January 21, 2006 17:01 Subject: Movies page http://www.ransomfellowship.org/Movies.html Good to talk with you today; as always! John
Re: [TruthTalk] A note about history
The point of history from a biblical perspective is the revelation of Jesus Christ. A little tidbit I received from one of Kruger's lectures and a most profound point of view. Without Christ as the primary focus, history is only a collection of stories and events. When Christ is considered the center of the Larger Historical Account, the failings in historyhave explanation and the happy events reveal purpose. Inevitable progress is the story of man in history with Christ as the focus. Take God in Christ out of the mix and "inevitable progress" is hardly the point or the reality. Enter the "God is dead" theologians (). Notice that we do not hear of the passing of God , of late. Good bye to that fantasy. And "hello" to a spiritual revivalthat declares the notion that God in Christ is the cosmic God of all things. Hopefully the church can move the thinking of some from this more general and righteousview to a point in time and practice when the individual will join history and allow God to define his/her life !! jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?
- Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/21/2006 2:30:18 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature? cd: To me this fits the state of Christianity (our new state, a Christ-like state)not thelost man following Satan state that the world lies in . Yes, a good analogy but we as Christians are given a measure of the Holy Spirit; how crazy does it sound to say Jesus came into the world with a nature that follows Satan which is the natural mind and the same state that the world lies in... Oh but ATST he walks in the fullness of the Holy Spirit? cd: If Christ came in the fallen state He would have been a sinner-Yet God himself said He was well pleased with Christ-What sinner is God well pleased wit? Christ was of a righteous nature-not a fallen nature.In the below we see Christ saying "Yes, You are of Abraham's seed but not Abraham's Children-insteadyou areSatan's Children. This shows there is a clear distinction between the two. One can be of Abraham's seed and still belong to Satan-and One can be of Abraham seedand belong to God.Christ was of this nature-Hence He was with this nature in the flesh of Abraham's seed.When God prevented Abraham from killing Isaac He toldAbraham that because you have not withheld your son from me I will not withhold my one son from you-meaning he would send Christ to Abraham's decedents. Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever. Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place < FONT color=#ff size=3>in you. Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. cd: Hebrews 2:18:For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. We have on record that he was tempted in the wilderness in the same three areas AE were in the garden; where they flunked, he passed that test. Then he was tempted in the garden of Gethsemane not to obey the Father and he overcame there. All the rest is pure speculation. cd: To be Holy (including tender hearted)and see sin -in the temple-in the hypocrisy of the Pharacees-In the rejection from His own people because they liked sin more Judy is to suffer-I do the same thing while out on the streets with unbelief and sin. Clark wrote: Heb 2:18 - For in that he himself hath suffered - The maxim on which this verse is founded is the following: A state of suffering disposes persons to be compassionate, and those who endure most afflictions are they who feel most for others. The apostle argues that, among other causes, it was necessary that Jesus Christ should partake of human nature, exposed to trials, persecutions, and various sufferings, that he might the better feel for and be led to succor those who are afflicted and sorely tried. This sentiment is well expressed by a Roman poet: - Me quoque per multas similis fortuna labores Jactatam hac demum voluit consistere terra: Non ignara mali, miseris succurere disco. Virg. Aen. i., v. 632. "For I myself like you, have been distressd, Till heaven afforded me this place of rest; Like you, an alien in a land unknown, I learn to pity woes so like my own." Dryden. "There are three things," says Dr. Owen, "of which tempted believers do stand in need: 1. Strength to withstand their temptations; 2. Consolations to support their spirits under them; 3. Seasonable deliverance from them. Unto these is the succor afforded by our High Priest suited; and it is variously administered to them: 1. By his word or promises; 2. By his Spirit;
Re: [TruthTalk] Judy, Lance, Bill, John, David?
cd: John I read your letter but if you want a reply could you please condense your points-In the form it is inI don't know where to start with this much info. Thanks. But I do see a lack of clarity on the fallen state before salvation and the Christ -like state after salvation. We were sinners not are sinners-there is a difference your belief does not allow for. Christ did not go unto the sinning man's state He drew the sinning man to His state and He did this without sinning himself-the Sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish (sin)in the Old Covenant which Christ fulfilled in the new-if not the sacrifice would be rejected by the priests and God.Consider these word of John and hopefully notice the state of Christians and the state of the lost man serving Satan-Are you saying that Christ sinned and served Satan John? Notice 1John started by warning of deception-He did this because he knew there would be deception in this area-as reveled to him by the Holy Ghost. 1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/21/2006 12:23:27 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy, Lance, Bill, John, David? I know this is too long -- but please take the time. I was having one of the moments in the Lord. If doesn't work for you, then it was just for me. I can live with that !! jd died; until then He remained alone,
Re: [TruthTalk] Judy, Lance, Bill, John, David?
Hallelujah!! Thank you Dean. Maybe now we can make some headway; you are right on the mark. On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:57:01 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd: John I read your letter but if you want a reply could you please condense your points-In the form it is inI don't know where to start with this much info. Thanks. But I do see a lack of clarity on the fallen state before salvation and the Christ -like state after salvation. We were sinners not are sinners-there is a difference your belief does not allow for. Christ did not go unto the sinning man's state He drew the sinning man to His state and He did this without sinning himself-the Sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish (sin)in the Old Covenant which Christ fulfilled in the new-if not the sacrifice would be rejected by the priests and God.Consider these word of John and hopefully notice the state of Christians and the state of the lost man serving Satan-Are you saying that Christ sinned and served Satan John? Notice 1John started by warning of deception-He did this because he knew there would be deception in this area-as reveled to him by the Holy Ghost. 1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/21/2006 12:23:27 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy, Lance, Bill, John, David? I know this is too long -- but please take the time. I was having one of the moments in the Lord. If doesn't work for you, then it was just for me. I can live with that !! jd died; until then He remained alone,
Re: [TruthTalk] Judy, Lance, Bill, John, David?
- Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/22/2006 8:05:45 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy, Lance, Bill, John, David? Hallelujah!! Thank you Dean. Maybe now we can make some headway; you are right on the mark. cd; Then you should like J.Wesley's reply on this Judy 1Jo 3:8 - He that committeth sin is a child of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning - That is, was the first sinner in the universe, and has continued to sin ever since. The Son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the devil - All sin. And will he not perform this in all that trust in him? On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:57:01 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd: John I read your letter but if you want a reply could you please condense your points-In the form it is inI don't know where to start with this much info. Thanks. But I do see a lack of clarity on the fallen state before salvation and the Christ -like state after salvation. We were sinners not are sinners-there is a difference your belief does not allow for. Christ did not go unto the sinning man's state He drew the sinning man to His state and He did this without sinning himself-the Sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish (sin)in the Old Covenant which Christ fulfilled in the new-if not the sacrifice would be rejected by the priests and God.Consider these word of John and hopefully notice the state of Christians and the state of the lost man serving Satan-Are you saying that Christ sinned and served Satan John? Notice 1John started by warning of deception-He did this because he knew there would be deception in this area-as reveled to him by the Holy Ghost. 1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/21/2006 12:23:27 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy, Lance, Bill, John, David? I know this is too long -- but please take the time. I was having one of the moments in the Lord. If doesn't work for you, then it was just for me. I can live with that !! jd died; until then He remained alone,
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
cd: No Bill -I did not completely understand Judy-I viewChrist as Wholly God Wholly Human and Judy does not. Not do I agree totally with yours and David stance that Christ was of common man. His nature wasno lower than a Christ -like nature:-) That may mean that I am in my own field alone? But at least I have a field to be alone in:-) Thanks Dean. I think we can all agree emphatically that Christ was holy and pure and did not sin. The last time this topic was a point of contention here on TT, David wrote some really good posts on Christ's holiness and purity, and how it was that neither of these were compromised by his human condition. Perhaps he can find time to revisit that concern. The major difference between a belief in Jesus as having a human nature other than ours --some sort of a pre-fallen nature -- and the belief that Jesus was born as we are, a subject of the fall, is that whereas our battle against sin is an internal battle, his would have been external to who he was in his human nature. His plight would have been to keep sin out, whereas ours is to get it out. As Christians, we are called to put sin to death "in our members." Jesus, in his lifetime, would not have had that battle, and hence could not have helped us, as his would have been a fortress mentality: just keep sin out of his members andhe will have proven it can be done. Well, that is notonly nothelpful to us --as we've already missed out on that opportunity -- it leaves us in an even more disparate condition, since Christ only proved us wrong but did not defeat sin in the way thatwe experience it.And if he only proved us wrong but did not defeat sin from within ourplight, thenall he can really do is become our offering for sin (not that he is not that, too). Thus hemay be our perpetual bull or goat, but don't call him our example, because he isn't an example to us, in that we never get to walk in his steps, as ours is altogether a different starting place than his. The best then that your view can offer is a substitutionarytheory of the atonement (and again not that Christ was not also our substitute). Yours is that God takes Christ's righteousness and imputes it to us and takes our sin and imputes it to him -- a legal transaction, if you will, but not a helpful one since we are still in our sin, it not having been defeated in our members. And so, even this double imputation is lacking in your view; indeed, it is a legal fiction: God declares us righteous, when we're not; and he winks at his Son, saying: "I'll call you sin, even though we all know you're not"; hence it is fiction on both accounts.On the contrary, see 2 Corinthians 5.21: "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." God sent his Son, perfect from eternity, to earth, and cloaked him in human form from the fruit of David's genitals according to the flesh --that is,replete with David's nature,which is "Sin" with a capital S-- in order that he might defeat sin where in resides in sinful humanity, so that we might experience genuine righteousness and not the kind you have to wink at. Look with me at Mark 7.20-23 and at James 4.1, and ask yourself if a man who does not have a fallen or "Sin" nature (your kind of Jesus) could actually be tempted in every way like his brothers: And [Jesus] said, "It iswhat comes out of a man, that defiles him.For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.All these evil things come from within and defile a man." Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? Could a man who does not have a nature of "Sin" actually experience the desire to act upon these things that war within us? In other words, could a man who does not have a human naturelike we do truly be tempted to behave in the way that we do? Of course not! Our battle comes from within; his would be to wall it out.Temptation for himwould be an external battle; ours is the opposite of that (as attested to above). Ours is intrinsic to who we are as fallen human beings. His would be extrinsic to his nature.His plightwould be to keep sin out, whileours is to get it out of our members. Hence, he would have nothing in common with us and nothing to offer us. Ah but that is not the case with Jesus. He can relate because he was tempted in every way that we are, yet was sinless, in that he did not act upon the desires of his heart; instead he defeated those desires in obedience to his Father. For inasmuch as we have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared in the same, having been made like us in every detail, in order that "he might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to
[TruthTalk] A model of vociferous but diplomatic engagement
Bill Taylor. Thanks for this, Bill. Lance
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean)
Hi Dean. We are not that far apart on this issue. Like you, I do not believe that Christ sinned. That is never a concern about what I write. Secondly, having a sinful nature has little to do with the event of sinningRather, it has more to do with the possibility of sinning. I believe that , as a man, Christ could sin. In John 17, his will and the Fathers will concerning the approaching agony were different. But Christs will to serve the Father is more important than His will to avoid the agony of death. If this is not true, IMO He is little more than a robot. None of this is to say that He is a man jus t like us. I maintain that you cannot be partly human except in the theoretical. Ditto for being party God. If a cow is only partly a cow, it is not a cow at all and all such discussions to the contrary are a collective and thoroughly utter waste of time. Christ must be all human for there is no other practical alternative. Likewise, He must be thoroughly God . The combination presents to us one who is indeed the unique Son of God. Take Romans 3:23 For all have sinned come short of the glory of God. If Christ is like us in all respects, how does that play out in view of such a passage as this? Well, for starters, having a sinful nature does not mean that I am a sinner nor does it have to mean that I will sin. Christ was like us except without sin. Agreed. So much for the first phrase of 3:23. He is not li ke us in that respect. But who said that sinning was a part of the human ontology to start with? In John 17, Christ prays for a return to the glory He shared with the Father before the worlds were. Glory lost !!! What is that second phrase in Ro 3:23 .. and all are falling short of the glory of God. If we define glory in broad enough terms, then Christ shared in this same predicament. That second phrase is a present time statement -- we ARE FALLING short of the glory.. and Christ prayed for what (Jo 17:5)? How can this be? We have no explanation if we ignore Philip 2: 1ff. I would be interested in your view of that passage as it relates to Ro 3:23 and John 17:5. jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean)
I think you can get the gist of what I am trying to say, here. Not my best effort. This is what I get for trying to write and watch the best of Mohammed Ali, fight # 3 with Joe Frazer. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Dean. We are not that far apart on this issue. Like you, I do not believe that Christ sinned. That is never a concern about what I write. Secondly, having a sinful nature has little to do with the event of sinningRather, it has more to do with the possibility of sinning. I believe that , as a man, Christ could sin. In John 17, his will and the Fathers will concerning the approaching agony were different. But Christs will to serve the Father is more important than His will to avoid the agony of death. If this is not true, IMO He is little more than a robot. None of this is to say that He is a man jus t like us. I maintain that you cannot be partly human except in the theoretical. Ditto for being party God. If a cow is only partly a cow, it is not a cow at all and all such discussions to the contrary are a collective and thoroughly utter waste of time. Christ must be all human for there is no other practical alternative. Likewise, He must be thoroughly God . The combination presents to us one who is indeed the unique Son of God. Take Romans 3:23 For all have sinned come short of the glory of God. If Christ is like us in all respects, how does that play out in view of such a passage as this? Well, for starters, having a sinful nature does not mean that I am a sinner nor does it have to mean that I will sin. Christ was like us except without sin. Agreed. So much for the first phrase of 3:23. He is not li ke us in that respect. But who said that sinning was a part of the human ontology to start with? In John 17, Christ prays for a return to the glory He shared with the Father before the worlds were. Glory lost !!! What is that second phrase in Ro 3:23 .. and all are falling short of the glory of God. If we define glory in broad enough terms, then Christ share d in this same predicament. That second phrase is a present time statement -- we ARE FALLING short of the glory.. and Christ prayed for what (Jo 17:5)? How can this be? We have no explanation if we ignore Philip 2: 1ff. I would be interested in your view of that passage as it relates to Ro 3:23 and John 17:5. jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean)
Yeah, John we got it: If a cow is only partly a cow,she is anudder waste. :) Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean) I think you can get the gist of what I am trying to say, here. Not my best effort. This is what I get for trying to write and watch the best of Mohammed Ali, fight # 3 with Joe Frazer. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Dean. We are not that far apart on this issue. Like you, I do not believe that Christ sinned. That is never a concern about what I write. Secondly, having a sinful nature has little to do with the event of sinningRather, it has more to do with the possibility of sinning. I believe that , as a man, Christ could sin. In John 17, his will and the Fathers will concerning the approaching agony were different. But Christs will to serve the Father is more important than His will to avoid the agony of death. If this is not true, IMO He is little more than a robot. None of this is to say that He is a man jus t like us. I maintain that you cannot be partly human except in the theoretical. Ditto for being party God. If a cow is only partly a cow, it is not a cow at all and all such discussions to the contrary are a collective and thoroughly utter waste of time. Christ must be all human for there is no other practical alternative. Likewise, He must be thoroughly God . The combination presents to us one who is indeed the unique Son of God. Take Romans 3:23 For all have sinned come short of the glory of God. If Christ is like us in all respects, how does that play out in view of such a passage as this? Well, for starters, having a sinful nature does not mean that I am a sinner nor does it have to mean that I will sin. Christ was like us except without sin. Agreed. So much for the first phrase of 3:23. He is not li ke us in that respect. But who said that sinning was a part of the human ontology to start with? In John 17, Christ prays for a return to the glory He shared with the Father before the worlds were. Glory lost !!! What is that second phrase in Ro 3:23 .. and all are falling short of the glory of God. If we define glory in broad enough terms, then Christ share d in this same predicament. That second phrase is a present time statement -- we ARE FALLING short of the glory.. and Christ prayed for what (Jo 17:5)? How can this be? We have no explanation if we ignore Philip 2: 1ff. I would be interested in your view of that passage as it relates to Ro 3:23 and John 17:5. jd-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean)
lol -- this is partly why I will never be considered a theologian -- Original message -- From: "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yeah, John we got it: If a cow is only partly a cow,she is anudder waste. :) Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean) I think you can get the gist of what I am trying to say, here. Not my best effort. This is what I get for trying to write and watch the best of Mohammed Ali, fight # 3 with Joe Frazer. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Dean. We are not that far apart on this issue. Like you, I do not believe that Christ sinned. That is never a concern about what I write. Secondly, having a sinful nature has little to do with the event of sinningRather, it has more to do with the possibility of sinning. I believe that , as a man, Christ could sin. In John 17, his will and the Fathers will concerning the approaching agony were different. But Christs will to serve the Father is more important than His will to avoid the agony of death. If this is not true, IMO He is little more than a robot. None of this is to say that He is a man jus t like us. I maintain that you cannot be partly human except in the theoretical. Ditto for being party God. If a cow is only partly a cow, it is not a cow at all and all such discussions to the contrary are a collective and utter waste of time. Christ must be all human for there is no other practical alternative. Likewise, He must be thoroughly God . The combination presents to us one who is indeed the unique Son of God. Take Romans 3:23 For all have sinned come short of the glory of God. If Christ is like us in all respects, how does that play out in view of such a passage as this? Well, for starters, having a sinful nature does not mean that I am a sinner nor does it have to mean that I will sin. Christ was like us except without sin. Agreed. So much for the first phrase of 3:23. He is not li ke us in that respect. But who said that sinning was a part of the human ontology to start with? In John 17, Christ prays for a return to the glory He shared with the Father before the worlds were. Glory lost !!! What is that second phrase in Ro 3:23 .. and all are falling short of the glory of God. If we define glory in broad enough terms, then Christ share d in this same predicament. That second phrase is a present time statement -- we ARE FALLING short of the glory.. and Christ prayed for what (Jo 17:5)? How can this be? We have no explanation if we ignore Philip 2: 1ff. I would be interested in your view of that passage as it relates to Ro 3:23 and John 17:5. jd-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean)
G and B -- sorry about what is happening to Denver, at this moment of time. jd -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] lol -- this is partly why I will never be considered a theologian -- Original message -- From: "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yeah, John we got it: If a cow is only partly a cow,she is anudder waste. :) Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus - God nor Man (jd/Dean) I think you can get the gist of what I am trying to say, here. Not my best effort. This is what I get for trying to write and watch the best of Mohammed Ali, fight # 3 with Joe Frazer. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Dean. We are not that far apart on this issue. Like you, I do not believe that Christ sinned. That is never a concern about what I write. Secondly, having a sinful nature has little to do with the event of sinningRather, it has more to do with the possibility of sinning. I believe that , as a man, Christ could sin. In John 17, his will and the Fathers will concerning the approaching agony were different. But Christs will to serve the Father is more important than His will to avoid the agony of death. If this is not true, IMO He is little more than a robot. None of this is to say that He is a man jus t like us. I maintain that you cannot be partly human except in the theoretical. Ditto for being party God. If a cow is only partly a cow, it is not a cow at all and all such discussions to the contrary are a collective and utter waste of time. Christ must be all human for there is no other practical alternative. Likewise, He must be thoroughly God . The combination presents to us one who is indeed the unique Son of God. Take Romans 3:23 For all have sinned come short of the glory of God. If Christ is like us in all respects, how does that play out in view of such a passage as this? Well, for starters, having a sinful nature does not mean that I am a sinner nor does it have to mean that I will sin. Christ was like us except without sin. Agreed. So much for the first phrase of 3:23. He is not li ke us in that respect. But who said that sinning was a part of the human ontology to start with? In John 17, Christ prays for a return to the glory He shared with the Father before the worlds were. Glory lost !!! What is that second phrase in Ro 3:23 .. and all are falling short of the glory of God. If we define glory in broad enough terms, then Christ share d in this same predicament. That second phrase is a present time statement -- we ARE FALLING short of the glory.. and Christ prayed for what (Jo 17:5)? How can this be? We have no explanation if we ignore Philip 2: 1ff. I would be interested in your view of that passage as it relates to Ro 3:23 and John 17:5. jd-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
[TruthTalk] Quote of the Day
Quote of the Day: Truth will set you free; it is the argument that will bind you. Gene Colgrove, Crystal River, Florida. Every Saturday morning, 12-16 men come together and break bread. It is an oral TruthTalk session at a local restaurant which lasts several hours. Well, yesterday in our discussions, my friend Gene made the statement above. I asked him if he heard that somewhere. He said no, the thought is original with him. I consider it a very worthwhile proverb that I will probably carry with me for the rest of my life. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] Lance and biblical language
cd: I think the Street Preachers understand B. Hinn quite well. I see it differently. CD wrote: I have no problem with laying on hands to heal the sick-heck-I am even for this-but to travel great distances to believe Hinn has some special insite/power with God is error-it is suppose to be done with the elders of the church. If the elders of the church do not pray the prayer of faith, and the person finds that he is still sick, then there is nothing wrong with him going to someone who has faith or who has gifts of healings. Read 1 Cor. 12 and you will find that gifts of healings, miracles, and faith are not limited to elders of the church. CD wrote: When the women touched Christ and was cured of the issue of blood-what (virtue) flowed from Christ to the women Hinn does not have. I suspect that the only cure Hinn has to offer is to cure one of covenaent money as he has most of it. You comparison of Christ and Hinn in the above is a mistake. I only pointed out that even Jesus Christ could not heal many because of their unbelief. If such explains failure in prayer with Jesus Christ, how much more does it explain failure with us. Therefore, we ought not deter the faith of anyone just because they are seeking help through another minister. Such objections arise from jealousy and envy, not from the Spirit of God. The testimony of many people is that they have been healed by God through Hinn's ministry, which is why so many give money to him. When a person has an incurable disease, they often become extremely grateful to the person they view as responsible for facilitating that healing. I have had the poorest of the poor give me the widow's mite so to speak. You don't know how difficult it is to receive such a gift, but the Spirit taught me long ago, nobody can give if nobody receives. Therefore, the answer is to pour the money back into helping them. I don't know what Hinn does with his money. He may very well be spending it unfaithfully, but if your criticism concerns him receiving lots of money, then your criticism is misdirected at the wrong end of the cash flow. CD wrote: By the way when did we become protesters? I understood you to be a preacher-we are likewise. Sometimes preachers do protest, and these Benny Hinn events are merely protests against Hinn. Just listen to what they are saying, or consider their signs. If they were preaching, they would heal the sick through the laying on of hands and the prayer of faith as the people came in. It seems to me that these street preachers who protest Hinn are in error, filled with a spirit of envy and backbiting. I suspect the street preachers protesting at the Promise Keepers events are basically the same thing. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judy, Lance, Bill, John, David?
Are you saying that Christ sinned and served Satan John? Notice 1John started by warning of deception-He did this because he knew there would be deception in this area-as reveled to him by the Holy Ghost. Dean, let's be honest, here. Are you asking me this question above because you are confused as to whether or not I believe that Christ sinned and served Satan? Sorry, Dean -- I am not going to answer that question, trusting that you already know the answer. Regarding Adam and Eve - if they did not have a "sinful nature" before their decision to disobey the Lord, they would have never disobeyed Him !! jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hallelujah!! Thank you Dean. Maybe now we can make some headway; you are right on the mark. On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:57:01 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd: John I read your letter but if you want a reply could you please condense your points-In the form it is inI don't know where to start with this much info. Thanks. But I do see a lack of clarity on the fallen state before salvation and the Christ -like state after salvation. We were sinners not are sinners-there is a difference your belief does not allow for. Christ did not go unto the sinning man's state He drew the sinning man to His state and He did this without sinning himself-the Sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish (sin)in the Old Covenant which Christ fulfilled in the new-if not the sacrifice would be rejected by the priests and God.Consider these word of John and hopefully notice the state of Christians and the state of the lost man serving Satan-Are you saying that Christ sinned and served Satan John? Notice 1John started by warning of deception-He did this because he knew there would be deception in this area-as reveled to him by the Holy Ghost. 1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/21/2006 12:23:27 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy, Lance, Bill, John, David? I know this is too long -- but please take the time. I was having one of the moments in the Lord. If doesn't work for you, then it was just for me. I can live with that !! jd died; until then He remained alone,
Re: [TruthTalk] Quote of the Day
myth (both 'truth', below, 'the argument', below,bind ppl, as in (e.g.) Liberation Theology; typically today, political argumentproduces synthetic truth, e.g., democracy-ism,temporal in nature with itsbroken-ness (e.g., broken treaties, broken contracts, broken vows) however, JCs Lordship in which (e.g.) '..no man comes to the Father but by Me..' is of an Absolute perspective, of the Truth which he said 'cannot be broken') On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:55:50 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "Truth will set you free; it is the argument that will bind you." ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?
If Christ came in the fallen state He would have been a sinner- First of all, Dean, Christ is God and Man. Secondly, don't think in terms of "fallen nature" but in terms of sin nature. Now, you may laugh thinking one is no better than the other - but I believe there is a difference. The first has sinned - the second only has potential for sin.. it is temptable. Adam and Eve were created with a temptable nature (a sin nature) or they would have never been given the charge to "not eat" nor would they have violated that command. jd - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/21/2006 2:30:18 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature? cd: To me this fits the state of Christianity (our new state, a Christ-like state)not thelost man following Satan state that the world lies in . Yes, a good analogy but we as Christians are given a measure of the Holy Spirit; how crazy does it sound to say Jesus came into the world with a nature that follows Satan which is the natural mind and the same state that the world lies in... Oh but ATST he walks in the fullness of the Holy Spirit? cd: If Christ came in the fallen state He would have been a sinner-Yet God himself said He was well pleased with Christ-What sinner is God well pleased wit? Christ was of a righteous nature-not a fallen nature.In the below we see Christ saying "Yes, You are of Abraham's seed but not Abraham's Children-insteadyou areSatan's Children. This shows there is a clear distinction between the two. One can be of Abraham's seed and still belong to Satan-and One can be of Abraham seedand belong to God.Christ was of this nature-Hence He was with this nature in the flesh of Abraham's seed.When God prevented Abraham from killing Isaac He toldAbraham that because you have not withheld your son from me I will not withhold my one son from you-meaning he would send Christ to Abraham's decedents. Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever. Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place & lt; FONT color=#ff size=3in you. Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. cd: Hebrews 2:18:For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. We have on record that he was tempted in the wilderness in the same three areas AE were in the garden; where they flunked, he passed that test. Then he was tempted in the garden of Gethsemane not to obey the Father and he overcame there. All the rest is pure speculation. cd: To be Holy (including tender hearted)and see sin -in the temple-in the hypocrisy of the Pharacees-In the rejection from His own people because they liked sin more Judy is to suffer-I do the same thing while out on the streets with unbelief and sin. Clark wrote: Heb 2:18 - For in that he himself hath suffered - The maxim on which this verse is founded is the following: A state of suffering disposes persons to be compassionate, and those who endure most afflictions are they who feel most for others. The apostle argues that, among other causes, it was necessary that Jesus Christ should partake of human nature, exposed to trials, persecutions, and various sufferings, that he might the better feel for and be led to succor those who are afflicted and sorely tried. This sentiment is well expressed by a Roman poet: - Me quoque per multas similis fortuna labores Jactatam hac demum voluit consistere terra: Non ignara mali, miseris succurere disco. Virg. Aen. i., v.
Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 02:28:51 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If Christ came in the fallen state He would have been a sinner- First of all, Dean, Christ is God and Man. Secondly, don't think in terms of "fallen nature" but in terms of sin nature. A sin nature and a "fallen nature are one and the same" So far as humanity is concerned - There is none righteous, no not one. Jesus Christ, is pure, holy, and he is and always has been righteous. The same nature - yesterday, today, and forever Now, you may laugh thinking one is no better than the other - but I believe there is a difference. The first has sinned - the second only has potential for sin.. it is temptable. Adam and Eve were created with a temptable nature (a sin nature) or they would have never been given the charge to "not eat" nor would they have violated that command. jd AE were created innocent; they did not know sin until they decided to disobey - that's all it took. This may conflict with your doctrine but that's just how it is. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/21/2006 2:30:18 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature? cd: To me this fits the state of Christianity (our new state, a Christ-like state)not thelost man following Satan state that the world lies in . Yes, a good analogy but we as Christians are given a measure of the Holy Spirit; how crazy does it sound to say Jesus came into the world with a nature that follows Satan which is the natural mind and the same state that the world lies in... Oh but ATST he walks in the fullness of the Holy Spirit? cd: If Christ came in the fallen state He would have been a sinner-Yet God himself said He was well pleased with Christ-What sinner is God well pleased wit? Christ was of a righteous nature-not a fallen nature.In the below we see Christ saying "Yes, You are of Abraham's seed but not Abraham's Children-insteadyou areSatan's Children. This shows there is a clear distinction between the two. One can be of Abraham's seed and still belong to Satan-and One can be of Abraham seedand belong to God.Christ was of this nature-Hence He was with this nature in the flesh of Abraham's seed.When God prevented Abraham from killing Isaac He toldAbraham that because you have not withheld your son from me I will not withhold my one son from you-meaning he would send Christ to Abraham's decedents. Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever. Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place lt; FONT color=#ff size=3in you. Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a
Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?
(*, below,= 'therefore, JC wasn't a human being' which is rational, but not biblical;a sylogisticlie rather than) myth On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:00:03 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [a.]So far as humanity is concerned - There is none righteous, no not one. [b.]Jesus Christ, is pure, holy, and he is and always has been righteous. [*.]
[TruthTalk] beginning
cd: Blaine I believe all the answers are in the Bible DAVEH: What do you perceive the beginning to be, Dean? I am asking this in context of Gen 1:1.. [1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. cd: Blaine I believe all the answers are in the Bible if one cares to search enough with believing faith and asking God for the answer-Men have always wanted to give an understanding of God that exists outside of the Bible that why cults profit and the only reason they exist. This started in the Garden with Satan: Yea,hath God said,...? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
[TruthTalk] Question Regarding Covenants Salvation
DAVEH: I would appreciate hearing from any TTers who would like to share their thoughts with me about the relationship between personal covenants and salvation. Do you feel that there is a personal covenant associated with salvation? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 02:28:51 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If Christ came in the fallen state He would have been a sinner- First of all, Dean, Christ is God and Man. Secondly, don't think in terms of "fallen nature" but in terms of sin nature. A sin nature and a "fallen nature are one and the same" No they are not, Judy. They are very different. So far as humanity is concerned - There is none righteous, no not one. Jesus Christ, is pure, holy, and he is and always has been righteous. The same nature - yesterday, today, and forever Bill will probably have a fit here, but I think there is a difference between a fallen nature and a sin-nature. Adam and Eve were created with a sin - nature or a temptable nature. Jesus was temptable but without sin. The Hebrews passage is talking about Christ being God, but nice try. Now, you may laugh thinking one is no better than the other - but I believe there is a difference. The first has sinned - the second only has potential for sin.. it is temptable. Adam and Eve were created with a temptable nature (a sin nature) or they would have never been given the charge to "not eat" nor would they have violated that command. jd AE were created innocent; they did not know sin until they decided to disobey - of course they were but they were created with the ability to sin and that is what I am calling a "sin nature." One who has a sin nature does not necessarily sin. I think that even David might agree with this --- based upon some of his past postings. that's all it took. This may conflict with your doctrine but that's just how it is. Your doctrine conflicts with mine. Let's keep that part straight. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/21/2006 2:30:18 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature? cd: To me this fits the state of Christianity (our new state, a Christ-like state)not thelost man following Satan state that the world lies in . Yes, a good analogy but we as Christians are given a measure of the Holy Spirit; how crazy does it sound to say Jesus came into the world with a nature that follows Satan which is the natural mind and the same state that the world lies in... Oh but ATST he walks in the fullness of the Holy Spirit? cd: If Christ came in the fallen state He would have been a sinner-Yet God himself said He was well pleased with Christ-What sinner is God well pleased wit? Christ was of a righteous nature-not a fallen nature.In the below we see Christ saying "Yes, You are of Abraham's seed but not Abraham's Children-insteadyou areSatan's Children. This shows there is a clear distinction between the two. One can be of Abraham's seed and still belong to Satan-and One can be of Abraham seedand belong to God.Christ was of this nature-Hence He was with this nature in the flesh of Abraham's seed.When God prevented Abraham from killing Isaac He toldAbraham that because you have not withheld your son from me I will not withhold my one son from you-meaning he would send Christ to Abraham's decedents. Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever. Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place & amp; lt; FONT color=#ff size=3in you. Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. cd: Hebrews 2:18:For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. We have on
Re: [TruthTalk] Question Regarding Covenants Salvation
Maybe. Exactly what is a personal covenant, DH? jd -- Original message -- From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] DAVEH: I would appreciate hearing from any TTers who would like to share their thoughts with me about the relationship between personal covenants and salvation. Do you feel that there is a personal covenant associated with salvation?-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.-- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] beginning
note: the heavens the earth and the notable, quotablewriter, below,himself, which ( who)expire/d,experienced 'begginings' generated by theCreator, who in Hebrew thoughtis miraculously bothbeginningless endless On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:09:00 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ||[1] In the beginning God created the heaven[s] and the earth||
Re: [TruthTalk] Question Regarding Covenants Salvation
DAVEH: The Lord made covenants with groups of people (Israelites, for instance). I was trying to distinguish that kind of (group) covenant with that of a personal covenant that the Lord would make with an individual. Does that make sense, John? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe. Exactly what is a personal covenant, DH? jd -- Original message -- From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] DAVEH: I would appreciate hearing from any TTers who would like to share their thoughts with me about the relationship between personal covenants and salvation. Do you feel that there is a personal covenant associated with salvation? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] beginning
DAVEH: Would you be so kind as to translate that into something this less than scholarly Mormon boy can understand, G? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: note: the heavens the earth and the notable, quotablewriter, below,himself, which ( who)expire/d,experienced 'begginings' generated by theCreator, who in Hebrew thoughtis miraculously bothbeginningless endless On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:09:00 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || [1] In the beginning God created the heaven[s] and the earth || -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
