[TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
Lance it amazes me that so many think they know exactly what God would and would not do - Yet their ideas are diametrically opposed to His Ways. What was the main thrust of your point to Dean that I missed? On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:27:40 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You've worded this in such a way as to suggest that God wouldn't 'use' those things I mentioned. He does. You appear to have missed the main thrust of my point to Dean. That's OK. From: Judy Taylor Correction!! Study helps do not give "understanding" Lance. Only the Holy Spirit can give "understanding" Historical background is not "understanding" per se. One can knowall ABOUT something and be completely void of "understanding" or spiritually ignorant just like the scribes and pharisees of Jesus' day.. On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 06:47:50 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By the way Dean, if a child can understand it then, would you say that Judy doesn't need her 'study helps' and DM doesn't require skills in ancient languages, logic etc.? cd: I think this is good advice and I am trying to do just that Lance. My advice to you is to forget all the different "isms" in these other views as they have IMO lead you into confusion.God wrote in a language so simple that even a child could understand-what you hold for truth is a doctrine of complexity that even a collage graduate would fall short understanding-and you or Satanhas placed people around yourself that is supporting this complex error. Simply read the Bible for your self and draw you own conclusions from those written words and-as you say live by those words-respectfully. From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/24/2006 5:58:24 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Plurality vs Pluralism - Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? Dean says to Lance "their is only ONE TRUTH...the Bible wording supports OUR TRUTH" Further, "I have tried to teach you...(the Bible truth, the One truth, our truth.. concerning sin)" I posted the course notes on Christology for you to see the diversity, Dean. In Mad Magazine it was Spy vs Spy whereas on TT, in the churches and, in life it is ideaology vs ideaology, religion vs religion, belief vs belief and, yes Dean, even SCRIPTURE VS SCRIPTURE. I suggest that you live out that which you believe God has shown you. Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 24, 2006 05:33 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Plurality vs Pluralism - Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/22/2006 7:18:44 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Plurality vs Pluralism - Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? Look 'em up. I'm for the former and, agin' the latter. It seems to me that each believes their understanding of the truth to be THE understanding of the truth. Each attempts to demonstrate the foregoing by employing means generally acceptable to all participants. When arriving at an impasse, persons just agree to disagree or, think of those with whom they disagree as unwilling/unable to SEE their (read THE) TRUTH. Persons also testify to the presence of their truth in their lives. Persons suggest some variation on illumination/enlightenment/Divine confirmation of their truth. cd:Theproblem I see with your reasoning Lance - Respectfully- is that the Bible wording supports our truth (ie. And there is only one truth). We can back up what we say with the word of God with harmony through the entire Bible-these others you mentioned cannot. I have tried to teach you about sin and the consequences of sin even on a believer. Can you use the Bible to teach me once saved always saved? How and, in what ways have I mischaracterized TT since its inception?
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
Main point from Dean: A child can 'understand'. To some extent a child CAN understand. However, Judy/Dean a child does NOT have the capacity to sign on TT and resolve matters of difference say, between Bill Taylor and David Miller. Don't make something mean more than it can. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 24, 2006 09:41 Subject: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? Lance it amazes me that so many think they know exactly what God would and would not do - Yet their ideas are diametrically opposed to His Ways. What was the main thrust of your point to Dean that I missed? On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:27:40 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You've worded this in such a way as to suggest that God wouldn't 'use' those things I mentioned. He does. You appear to have missed the main thrust of my point to Dean. That's OK. From: Judy Taylor Correction!! Study helps do not give "understanding" Lance. Only the Holy Spirit can give "understanding" Historical background is not "understanding" per se. One can knowall ABOUT something and be completely void of "understanding" or spiritually ignorant just like the scribes and pharisees of Jesus' day.. On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 06:47:50 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By the way Dean, if a child can understand it then, would you say that Judy doesn't need her 'study helps' and DM doesn't require skills in ancient languages, logic etc.? cd: I think this is good advice and I am trying to do just that Lance. My advice to you is to forget all the different "isms" in these other views as they have IMO lead you into confusion.God wrote in a language so simple that even a child could understand-what you hold for truth is a doctrine of complexity that even a collage graduate would fall short understanding-and you or Satanhas placed people around yourself that is supporting this complex error. Simply read the Bible for your self and draw you own conclusions from those written words and-as you say live by those words-respectfully. From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/24/2006 5:58:24 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Plurality vs Pluralism - Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? Dean says to Lance "their is only ONE TRUTH...the Bible wording supports OUR TRUTH" Further, "I have tried to teach you...(the Bible truth, the One truth, our truth.. concerning sin)" I posted the course notes on Christology for you to see the diversity, Dean. In Mad Magazine it was Spy vs Spy whereas on TT, in the churches and, in life it is ideaology vs ideaology, religion vs religion, belief vs belief and, yes Dean, even SCRIPTURE VS SCRIPTURE. I suggest that you live out that which you believe God has shown you. Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 24, 2006 05:33 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Plurality vs Pluralism - Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/22/2006 7:18:44 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Plurality vs Pluralism - Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? Look 'em up. I'm for the former and, agin' the latter. It seems to me that each believes their understanding of the truth to be THE understanding of the truth. Each attempts to demonstrate the foregoing by employing means generally acceptable to all participants. When arriving at an impasse, persons just agree to disagree or, think of those with whom they disagree as unwilling/unable to SEE their (read THE) TRUTH. Persons also testify to the presence of their truth in their lives. Persons suggest some variation on
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
Lance wrote: Main point from Dean: A child can 'understand'. To some extent a child CAN understand. However, ... a child does NOT have the capacity to sign on TT and resolve matters of difference say, between Bill Taylor and David Miller. I'm with Lance on this one. Let me make a parallel point. Salvation is not based upon intellect, and therefore salvation is not based upon any intellectual understanding. All that is needed is to hear the truth and believe it. There is a basic level of spiritual understanding, but for the most part, intellect is not involved. It is a hearing and faith thing. Now knowledge can go far beyond this. So can understanding. This knowledge and understanding produces good, and so we appreciate it. But such does not make the knowledgeable and intelligent better than the ignorant and those of average or below average intelligence. Knowledge and intelligence are only different functions within the body of Christ. Just as the eye is not better than the ear, mouth, or foot, so it is with the intellectual versus the non-intellectual. What I see Judy and Dean objecting to is the elevation of intellectual understanding to a place where it ought not be. In other words, must one understand the teachings of Torrance, Barth, etc. in order to experience the Lord? Are the ones who have studied the writings of these theologians better off than the ones who have not? Last point for Judy. When we get into deeper theological studies, we often do so without the participation of children. For example, at my home church meeting last Sunday, we got into eschatology, studying a little about the last days, the antichrist, etc. There was a good bit of history and Judeo background that I discussed. What I shared was far beyond my youngest children's ability to understand, so I don't require them to sit in on such discussions. However, there were many adults there who were interested and could understand and interact. So what do we do? Do we skip the study because children can't understand, or do we allow the children and adults to persue different paths in their studies? I opt for the latter. Do you understand where I am coming from? David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
Ah but must one understand THE TEACHINGS OF DAVID MILLER? - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 24, 2006 10:55 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? Lance wrote: Main point from Dean: A child can 'understand'. To some extent a child CAN understand. However, ... a child does NOT have the capacity to sign on TT and resolve matters of difference say, between Bill Taylor and David Miller. I'm with Lance on this one. Let me make a parallel point. Salvation is not based upon intellect, and therefore salvation is not based upon any intellectual understanding. All that is needed is to hear the truth and believe it. There is a basic level of spiritual understanding, but for the most part, intellect is not involved. It is a hearing and faith thing. Now knowledge can go far beyond this. So can understanding. This knowledge and understanding produces good, and so we appreciate it. But such does not make the knowledgeable and intelligent better than the ignorant and those of average or below average intelligence. Knowledge and intelligence are only different functions within the body of Christ. Just as the eye is not better than the ear, mouth, or foot, so it is with the intellectual versus the non-intellectual. What I see Judy and Dean objecting to is the elevation of intellectual understanding to a place where it ought not be. In other words, must one understand the teachings of Torrance, Barth, etc. in order to experience the Lord? Are the ones who have studied the writings of these theologians better off than the ones who have not? Last point for Judy. When we get into deeper theological studies, we often do so without the participation of children. For example, at my home church meeting last Sunday, we got into eschatology, studying a little about the last days, the antichrist, etc. There was a good bit of history and Judeo background that I discussed. What I shared was far beyond my youngest children's ability to understand, so I don't require them to sit in on such discussions. However, there were many adults there who were interested and could understand and interact. So what do we do? Do we skip the study because children can't understand, or do we allow the children and adults to persue different paths in their studies? I opt for the latter. Do you understand where I am coming from? David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
What do matters of difference between BT and DM have to do with "understanding" the gospel Lance? To me the point of the conflict sounded something like "God hides things from the 'wise and prudent' and reveals them to babes. On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:09:31 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Main point from Dean: A child can 'understand'. To some extent a child CAN understand. However, Judy/Dean a child does NOT have the capacity to sign on TT and resolve matters of difference say, between Bill Taylor and David Miller. Don't make something mean more than it can. From: Judy Taylor Lance it amazes me that so many think they know exactly what God would and would not do - Yet their ideas are diametrically opposed to His Ways. What was the main thrust of your point to Dean that I missed? On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:27:40 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You've worded this in such a way as to suggest that God wouldn't 'use' those things I mentioned. He does. You appear to have missed the main thrust of my point to Dean. That's OK. From: Judy Taylor Correction!! Study helps do not give "understanding" Lance. Only the Holy Spirit can give "understanding" Historical background is not "understanding" per se. One can knowall ABOUT something and be completely void of "understanding" or spiritually ignorant just like the scribes and pharisees of Jesus' day.. On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 06:47:50 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By the way Dean, if a child can understand it then, would you say that Judy doesn't need her 'study helps' and DM doesn't require skills in ancient languages, logic etc.? cd: I think this is good advice and I am trying to do just that Lance. My advice to you is to forget all the different "isms" in these other views as they have IMO lead you into confusion.God wrote in a language so simple that even a child could understand-what you hold for truth is a doctrine of complexity that even a collage graduate would fall short understanding-and you or Satanhas placed people around yourself that is supporting this complex error. Simply read the Bible for your self and draw you own conclusions from those written words and-as you say live by those words-respectfully. From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/24/2006 5:58:24 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Plurality vs Pluralism - Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? Dean says to Lance "their is only ONE TRUTH...the Bible wording supports OUR TRUTH" Further, "I have tried to teach you...(the Bible truth, the One truth, our truth.. concerning sin)" I posted the course notes on Christology for you to see the diversity, Dean. In Mad Magazine it was Spy vs Spy whereas on TT, in the churches and, in life it is ideaology vs ideaology, religion vs religion, belief vs belief and, yes Dean, even SCRIPTURE VS SCRIPTURE. I suggest that you live out that which you believe God has shown you. Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 24, 2006 05:33 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Plurality vs Pluralism - Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/22/2006 7:18:44 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Plurality vs Pluralism - Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? Look 'em up. I'm for the former and, agin' the latter. It seems to me that each believes their understanding of the truth to be THE understanding of the truth. Each attempts to demonstrate the foregoing by employing means generally acceptable to all participants. When arriving at an
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
Read David's follow up point, Judy. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 24, 2006 12:35 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? What do matters of difference between BT and DM have to do with "understanding" the gospel Lance? To me the point of the conflict sounded something like "God hides things from the 'wise and prudent' and reveals them to babes. On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:09:31 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Main point from Dean: A child can 'understand'. To some extent a child CAN understand. However, Judy/Dean a child does NOT have the capacity to sign on TT and resolve matters of difference say, between Bill Taylor and David Miller. Don't make something mean more than it can. From: Judy Taylor Lance it amazes me that so many think they know exactly what God would and would not do - Yet their ideas are diametrically opposed to His Ways. What was the main thrust of your point to Dean that I missed? On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:27:40 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You've worded this in such a way as to suggest that God wouldn't 'use' those things I mentioned. He does. You appear to have missed the main thrust of my point to Dean. That's OK. From: Judy Taylor Correction!! Study helps do not give "understanding" Lance. Only the Holy Spirit can give "understanding" Historical background is not "understanding" per se. One can knowall ABOUT something and be completely void of "understanding" or spiritually ignorant just like the scribes and pharisees of Jesus' day.. On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 06:47:50 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By the way Dean, if a child can understand it then, would you say that Judy doesn't need her 'study helps' and DM doesn't require skills in ancient languages, logic etc.? cd: I think this is good advice and I am trying to do just that Lance. My advice to you is to forget all the different "isms" in these other views as they have IMO lead you into confusion.God wrote in a language so simple that even a child could understand-what you hold for truth is a doctrine of complexity that even a collage graduate would fall short understanding-and you or Satanhas placed people around yourself that is supporting this complex error. Simply read the Bible for your self and draw you own conclusions from those written words and-as you say live by those words-respectfully. From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 2/24/2006 5:58:24 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Plurality vs Pluralism - Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? Dean says to Lance "their is only ONE TRUTH...the Bible wording supports OUR TRUTH" Further, "I have tried to teach you...(the Bible truth, the One truth, our truth.. concerning sin)" I posted the course notes on Christology for you to see the diversity, Dean. In Mad Magazine it was Spy vs Spy whereas on TT, in the churches and, in life it is ideaology vs ideaology, religion vs religion, belief vs belief and, yes Dean, even SCRIPTURE VS SCRIPTURE. I suggest that you live out that which you believe God has shown you. Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: February 24, 2006 05:33 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Plurality vs Pluralism - Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH? - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
Lance wrote: Ah but must one understand THE TEACHINGS OF DAVID MILLER? Of course NOT! As Bible Jim Webber might quip while preaching on campus, DON'T GET SO PERSONAL! :-) David Miller -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
myth (it's based on God's intellect ain't it, Lance?) On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:55:21 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:..I'm with Lance on this one...Salvation is not based upon intellect. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
..scary thought, eh? On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:00:45 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth (it's based on God's intellect ain't it, Lance?) On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:55:21 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:..I'm with Lance on this one...Salvation is not based upon intellect. ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
..I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you...I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:08:49 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || God's intellect [e.g.] ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
..no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him... On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:20:34 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you...I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:08:49 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || God's intellect [e.g.] [ salvation as very particular,even exclusive revealed knowledge] ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
* e.g.: The LORD is..my salvation -attributed to David, Ps 27 On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:27:26 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him... On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:20:34 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you...I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:08:49 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || God's intellect [e.g.] [ salvation as very particular,even exclusive revealed knowledge] * ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
..apparently, although he, too,was Israeli and also close friends, as King David was, with Samuel, KingSaul himselfneverposted for posterityany suchpoetry*...why not (and/or, where is it)? On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:33:40 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * e.g. The LORD is..my salvation -attributed to David, Ps 27 On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:27:26 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him... On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:20:34 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you...I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:08:49 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || God's intellect [e.g.] [ salvation as very particular,even exclusive revealed knowledge] * ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Who is believing/teach THE TRUTH?
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:41:49 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..apparently, although he, too,was Israeli and also close friends, as King David was, with Samuel, KingSaul himselfneverposted for posterityany suchpoetry*...why not (and/or, where is it)? On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:33:40 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * e.g. The LORD is..my salvation -attributed to David, Ps 27 On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:27:26 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him... On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:20:34 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you...I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:08:49 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || God's intellect [e.g.] [ salvation as very particular,even exclusive revealed knowledge] * ||
