Re: [TruthTalk]Covenants
Hi Judy, You wrote: Moses however is known as the mediator of God's Law (Deut 4:13) which is called the Law of Moses. Sister, where in scripture is Moses referred to as such? And where is the covenant made at Sinai EVER CALLED THE LAW? The law of Moses and the Book of the law of Moses is the Book of Deuteronomy, NOT the ten commandments as many suppose! Joshua specificly said that Moses wrote about not lifting up iron upon stones used for the altar unto the Lord. (Joshua 8:31) Such was NOT written in the ten commandments, but rather in Deuteronomy 27:5! You wrote for the second time:The Abrahamic covenant was also conditioned upon obedience. Covenants are to the death and Moses almost paid the extreme penalty for neglect. But I had asked you where in Gen.17 (God's covenant with Abraham) are any conditions found? You did not answer this question! Also, how does such a condition apply to the instance you have referred to relative to Moses??? You had written that there was a covenant between God the Father and God the Son, to which I'd responded:I'm sorry sister, but there are no covenants in scripture made between divine persons! You answered:Is this why Jesus is called the lamb slain before the foundation of the world? There was no human being involved here Judy, the lamb slain before the foundation of the world was NOT a promise or covenant made by the Father to the Son or vice versa! I'd written:So God began to make covenants (binding promises) to assure sinful human beings that THEY COULD TRUST HIM!. But because there is no distrust between The Father and The Son, there is absolutely no need for any covenants between them! To this you responded:What about the cross? Jesus the man (son) did not want to go there to the point of sweating drops of blood. But he had learned obedience by the things he suffered and so submitted his will to the will of the Father and went to the cross despising the shame. All that you said above is true! But it says nothing at all about any distrust between divine persons, nor does it say anything at all about divine persons making covenants with each other! So I don't get your point. I'd written:The covenant in Gen.17 was not made BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON! IT was made by God WITH ABRAHAM, and through him with Isaac, Jacob and their seed. See Exodus 2:24; Leviticus 26:42; 2 Kings 13:23; 1 Chronicles 16:16; and Psalms 105:9 To which you responded:Yes the Promise was to Abraham and his seed and Jesus is the Promise. He is the fulfillment of every covenant made with man. Sister, I think you are dodging the issue again. That Jesus was the promised seed says nothing relative to your claim that the Abrahamic covenant was a covenant made by the Father WITH the Son! Scripture clearly states (the references I gave above) that God made this covenant WITH ABRAHAM, NOT with Christ! Judy, I asked you:Sister, can you be specific about the conditions of the covenant which God made with Abraham which were violated by Israel which violations became the reason why they were in Egyptian bondage?? Where does scripture state this idea?? Your response (quoted in full here with a few comments of mine in [brackets]), fails to show any such conditions at all!:We know that because of his faith Abraham pleased God and it was counted to him for righteousness - Abraham was called a friend of God or a 'friend of the covenant. '[This term is never found in scripture, sister!] The patriarchs found themselves in Egypt (the house of bondage) because being moved with the sin of envy they sold their brother Joseph to the Ishmeelites who brought him to Egypt. [I don't think scripture ever states this as the reason at all!] God promoted Joseph who was a man of faith with the fear of God in his heart. When tempted by his bosses wife Joseph's response tells where he was at spiritually ie: how then can I do this great wickedness and sin against God? So God blessed and promoted Joseph and things were seemingly well with Israel until another king arose over Egypt who knew not Joseph (Acts 7:18). By this time the Israelites had lost the knowledge of God for when Moses tried to defend one who was being mistreated and minister to them they understood not (Acts 7:25) I had written:Heb.8:10-12 does NOT say that God would put His statutes and commandments into their hearts but rather His LAWS. To this you responded:It is my understanding that Moses wrote all of them in the Book of the Law or Torah. Dear Sister, The Torah is the Pentateuch (Genesis to Deuteronomy) But the Book of the law is ONLY the Book of Deuteronomy! This is demonstrated by the fact that ALL the things which are said to be written by Moses in the Book of the Law are found in the Book of Deuteronomy ALONE! -the curses of the covenant (Deuteronomy 29:21 and Gal.3:10) are the curses (Deut.28) of the covenant made in the plains of Moab, not the covenant made in the
Re: [TruthTalk]Covenants
Izzy: Thank you for sending the address of Hebroots.com I signed up yesterday and should hear from them soon. Grandmothering at your house sounds exciting - what a morning!! At first I thought it sounded just like us, that is until you mentioned dogs, skinks, and wagging tails :) Our TX family just left, they were here for 10 days. The children are 1, 3, 6, and the oldest turned 8 while they were here. Same plan of the day though, the older two stretch out in front of the TV watching videos, the 3yr old dances around talking non stop and the 1yr old crawls about getting into whatever she can. By the time they left I wondered if I was still capable of a sane thought... but we sure do love them. Like you I am also unsure of where I stand with regard to Church buildings and paid clergy. What I long for is more like what you describe at your Messianic group. At least it sounds a lot more free than most of what I've seen. The encouragement is much appreciated Izzy. Grace and Peace, Judy On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:56:24 -0400 ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Excellent commentary Judy--send more soon! Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 10:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]Covenants -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Covenants 2
Judy: The Mosaic covenant was a revelation of God's holiness and His desire for a holy people. The Hebrews had found themselves in bondage to Egypt because they were transgressing the Abrahamic covenant (they were not obedient to its conditions) and so God gave them a tutor or schoolmaster in the form of law until the time of the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. (Gal 3:23-25) Bruce: Sister, can you be specific about the conditions of the covenant which God made with Abraham which were violated by Israel which violations became the reason why they were in Egyptian bondage?? Where does scripture state this idea?? Judy: We know that because of his faith Abraham pleased God and it was counted to him for righteousness - Abraham was called a friend of God or a 'friend of the covenant. ' The patriarchs found themselves in Egypt (the house of bondage) because being moved with the sin of envy they sold their brother Joseph to the Ishmeelites who brought him to Egypt. God promoted Joseph who was a man of faith with the fear of God in his heart. When tempted by his bosses wife Joseph's response tells where he was at spiritually ie: how then can I do this great wickedness and sin against God? So God blessed and promoted Joseph and things were seemingly well with Israel until another king arose over Egypt who knew not Joseph (Acts 7:18). By this time the Israelites had lost the knowledge of God for when Moses tried to defend one who was being mistreated and minister to them they understood not (Acts 7:25) I wrote:Note that Hebrews 9:1 describes that what was vanishing were the ordinances of divine service and the worldly sanctuary and not God's Law (which includes the statutes and commandments) because according to (Jer 31:32-34, Jer 32:40, Ezek 37:26, Heb 8:10) had been put into their minds and written on their hearts. Bruce: Sister, I would remind you that the worldly sanctuary of Heb. 9 along with it's furnishings, the ark the cherubim etc had passed away centuries before Hebrews 9!!! Judy: The tabernacle in the wilderness may have been gone but this was emulated in the three temples that followed. Herod's temple was still standing until 70 AD. Bruce: Also Heb.8:10-12 does NOT say that God would put His statutes and commandments into their hearts but rather His LAWS. Judy: It is my understanding that Moses wrote all of them in the Book of the Law or Torah. Bruce: Deut. 4:13 defines the specific contents of the covenant that was first made with them children of Israel as THE TEN COMMANDMENTS! This is precisely the first covenant (Heb.8:7-9) which decayed, waxed old and was ready to vanish away when the Book of Hebrews was written nearly two millenia ago! Judy: I don't think so Bruce and the reason I don't think so is because of 1 Cor 6:9-11 Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God This is the Law of Christ in the heart to which we are bound and as obedient children we are to walk in holiness. Note Idolatry is the 1st and 2nd commandment of the 10 commandments, adultery is the 7th commandment, thievery is the 8th commandment, reviling is the 9th commandment, and covetousness is the 10th commandment. Bruce: The book of the law in which the curses were written (Gal.3:10) was the Book of Deuteronomy! See Deuteronomy 29:21; 30:10; 31:26; Joshua 1:8 Such was only a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ and we are NO LONGER UNDER THAT SCHOOLMASTER, BUT ARE RATHER THE CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS! (Gal.3:21-26) Judy: Don't forget the condition - We are not under condemnation (the curse) so long as we walk after the Spirit rather than after the flesh (Rom 8:1,2) I wrote: God never did dwell in temples made with hands; Acts 7:48 refers to the prophet Nathan who told David to do what was on his heart but later returned with a word from God see (2 Sam 7:5-17). Vs.13 does not refer to Solomon because we know that Solomon did not have an everlasting kingdom, in fact it was divided and he lost it. Bruce: Exodus 25:8 specificly tells us that that children of Israel were to build the tabernacle as a sanctuary so God could dwell among them. Judy: Yes and they had to build the tabernacle according to the pattern; God gave them the dimensions and it is a picture of Christ. God met them there at the mercy seat. It is called the tabernacle of witness. He did promise Moses that he would lead them during their time in the wilderness. Bruce: True, it was a TENT and NOT a HOUSE as II Sam.7 states. But AFTER Solomon's temple was built, God did dwell there! Judy: Where do you find validation for this Bruce? God gave no pattern for Solomon's temple - He did allow them to use His name there and He said they could pray from there but He never ever wanted a temporal house of cedar(2
Re: [TruthTalk]Covenants
"Bruce Woodford" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Hi Judy,You wrote: "Wouldn't Mosaic covenant be more exact Bruce?" Bruce:Actually, this covenant is not spoken of as being made with Moses,but isdesignated by - where it was made: Deut.29:1 "in Horeb"-when it was made: Deut.29:25; I Kings 8:9; " when He brought themout ofEgypt." -with whom it was made: I Kings 8:9 "with the children of Israel" Judy: Actually Moses himself along with Israel were under the Abrahamic covenant of promiseand to show how serious God is about this - He allowed Moses on his way to Egypt to see the Pharoah to bealmost killedbecause he neglected his responsibility to circumcise his son. Moses however is known as themediator of God's Law (Deut 4:13) which is called the Law of Moses. I wrote:" All covenants made with God are conditional - "He is thegreatand awesome God who keeps His covenant and loving kindness for thosewholove Him and keep his commandments" (Daniel 9:4)." Bruce:God makes covenants with men. The covenant that is in view inDan.9:4 is thecovenant that God made with Israel after they came out of Egypt! ItWASCONDITIONED UPON THEIR OBEDIENCE! See Ex.19:5 Judy: The Abrahamic covenant was also conditioned upon obedience Covenants are to the death and Moses almost paid the extreme penalty for neglect.I wrote: "No covenant is unconditional not even the New Covenant. Thecovenant with Abraham as well as the New Covenant are not betweenunequalparties (as is sometimes taught). Abraham did not walk through the pieces, God did. In theNewCovenant Jesus walked through the pieces on our behalf so thecovenant isbetween God the Father and God the Son. Like Mephibosheth we entertheCovenant through adoption (as sons) by the King. We are heirs to apreviously established covenant between God the Father and His sonJesus." Bruce:I'm sorry sister, but there are no covenants in scripture madebetweendivine persons! Covenants were only established AFTER sin hadentered intothe world and people found by experience that they could not trustoneanothers' word or promises! Judy: Is this why Jesus is called the "lamb slain before the foundation of the world?" There was no human being involved here and the first covenant on record is the one God made with Noah. This was a covenant of promise on the part of God who had just destroyed the known world by water because of perversion and violence in the land. Bruce: So God began to make covenants (bindingpromises) to assure sinful human beings that THEY COULD TRUST HIM!.But because there is no distrust between The Father and The Son, thereisabsolutely no need for any covenants between them! Judy: What about the cross? Jesus the man (son) did not want to go there to the point of sweating drops of blood. But he had learned obedience by the things he suffered and sosubmitted his will to the will of the Father and went to the cross despising the shame. Bruce: The covenant inGen.17was not made BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON! IT was made by God WITHABRAHAM, and through him with Isaac, Jacob and their seed. See Exodus2:24;Leviticus 26:42; 2 Kings 13:23; 1 Chronicles 16:16; and Psalms105:9 Judy: YesthePromise was to Abraham and his seed and Jesus is the Promise. He is the fulfillment of every covenant made with man. Continued..
[TruthTalk] Covenants 3
Judy: I agree that most of what we see in the IC is lopsided. ATST baby Christians can not be expected to do the work of the ministry, they have to learn. Bruce: (I don't know what ATST means!) Sister, I do not seek to be disagreeable, but I cannot agree with you assumption that only mature body members can minister. This is never stated in scripture! Judy: I think it is shown by example. It took Moses 40yrs as a sheep herder in Midian before he was ready to lead Israel out of Egypt; and Paul who wrote 2/3 of the NT had been trained already as a Pharisee of the Pharisees - I know he counted it all dung but still it would have given him a good background in history and some other things and after his conversion he still went off by himself to learn for another 14yrs. Timothy was a young man but he had been raised in the scriptures by his mother and grandmother. Paul wrote telling him not to give a novice a place of authority lest he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Bruce: Think of your grandchildren when they were born: not one of their members was mature, but every member of their precious little bodies was equipped to function and to meet the needs that needed to be met in that infantile body! Judy: Our 12month old grandson is here today and yes he is perfectly made and all of his parts work. ATST (at the same time) without training and godly wisdom he is a bit of a 'bruiser' We can't leave him alone with his cousin (also 12 months) because he pushes her and pulls hair He is well meaning and has no idea what that feels like, he smiles when he does it and grandpa wonders if our son is raising a hoodlum :). Bruce: So too, in a gathering of newborn Christians, they are all gifted (I Peter 4:10a) they are all taught of God (John 6:45; I Thess.4:9) and they are all have a responsibility to minister to one another (I Peter 4:10b,11). Judy: Yes we are all responsible to walk in love toward one another and God can do what He wants through whomsoever He chooses. ATST I see that spiritual discernment is very important when dealing with the spiritual realm and a baby believer would not have their senses exercised to discern between good and evil right away. Bruce: There is just as much of Christ, of the Father and of the Holy Spirit in a newly saved person as there is in an elderly saint who has been saved for 70 years! Judy: It is my understanding that the Father is in the 3rd heavens and Jesus sits at his right hand there. The Holy Spirit is the one who comes to live in the believer and an elderly believer who has been walking with Jesus with their whole heart should have much more wisdom and understanding. Old saints are such a blessing especially in contrast to some of the worldly old folks who are like thorns and thistles Bruce: When I wrote:That is why those salaried clergymen (and women) are called the ministers! That is contrary to scripture! The saints are to be doing the work of the ministry!... You responded:Scripture also says that a workman is worthy of his hire. I know Paul worked as a tentmaker and also ministered; and the scripture does say the saints are to be doing the work of the ministry. How would you define this work Bruce? That the workman is worthy of his hire is a solid truth of scripture Luke 10:7 But it has nothing whatsoever to do with SHEEP HIRING SHEPHERDS AND PAYING THEIR SALARIES!!! The word translated hire in Luke 10:7 is used in 28 verses in the scriptures. In 23 of them it is translated reward. God is never under any obligation nor is He ever indebted to His servants! God's economy does not operate on charging and paying but rather on giving and receiving. Freely ye have received, freely give. Matthew 10:8. Judy: Hmmm! Have I been around perverted IC's for too long? I haven't given this as much thought as you obviously have Bruce. Bruce: The work of ministry is simply the work of SERVICE. Anyone, even a little child or a lowly slave can serve! In fact, the Lord Jesus told His disciples that he that would be great among them let him be as the younger and he that would be chief as him that doth serve! Maturity, position, reputation, popularity etc are NOT prerequisites of godly scriptural MINISTRY. Humility, hearing the voice of God and a willingness to obey certainly are! Judy: Still we need to balance the above with being as wise as a serpent and ATST as harmless as a dove Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, Grace and Peace to you, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] [TruthTalk ]Covenants
Brother Bruce, I must apologize for my response to this thread yesterday. I should have waited another day because yesterday our 12 month old grandson was padding around here getting into stuff so grandpa kept calling me for this, that, and the other, also I could not remember where I put my notes on covenant so I tried 'winging it' - I won't do that again. Now that I have reviewed I want to say that I was wrong about the cross; Jesus was not part of God's covenant through the cross. He is the smoking oven and flaming torch in Abraham's vision (Genesis 15:17,18); the Lord walked through the pieces on Abram's behalf while he slept. If you have studied covenant you know that it is a walk of death along with an exchange of strengths and weaknesses between the parties. Jesus is also the burning bush that appeared to Moses; the water that came from the rock at Horeb, and the cloud by day and pillar of fire by night that followed Israel through the wilderness for 40yrs. You asked about the conditions God gave to Abram; they are listed in Genesis 17: (V1 Walk before me and be blameless; (V9 You shall keep my covenant; (V10 Male circumcision; (V11 Uncircumcised men will be cut off. Where do you find the definition you give for covenants Bruce, that is that they are binding promises to assure that people can trust God and each other? You asked about the 'conditions Israel violated' which brought them into captivity. It was in God's initial plan for the patriarchs and their seed to live in Egypt for a time until the iniquity of the Amorites was fulfilled and they could inherit the land of Promise (Genesis 15:13-16) In Acts 7:9 we learn by the mouth of Stephen who was filled with the Holy Spirit that the patriarchs (being moved with envy/jealousy) sold their brother to the Ishmeelites; note that according to God's law (Deuteronomy 24:7) kidnapping and selling a brother was a sin worthy of death. (The curse may be a long way off at first allowing time to repent but if sin is not dealt with it will surely come and it was there by the time God sent Moses to deliver his people from captivity. You accuse me of misquoting my favorite passage of scripture to make it fit my doctrine Bruce... but I don't need a 'favorite passage' It is all through the New Testament - we are either following the law of sin and death, or the law of the spirit of life in Christ. I thought Romans 8:1,2 was the shortest way to communicate that point. After all we are slaves to whoever we obey and when we follow the lusts of our flesh we are serving sin and are free from righteousness Romans 6:20. Righteousness is not some religious mantra we constantly afirm once we have said our prayer to receive Jesus for it is the one who DOES righteousness who is righteous. (1 John 2:29, 3:7, 3:10) and the schoolmaster lives on. Sin is 'transgression of the law' (1 John 3:4) so how is it possible to transgress something that that has passed away and is now dead/irrelevant? If we claim to have no sin when we are in fact lawless (transgressing God's law) scripture tells us we are deceiving ourselves (1 John 1:8). Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk]Covenants
Excellent commentary Judy--send more soon! Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 10:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]Covenants Bruce Woodford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think I need to clarify a few things here: (1)What we have traditionally called the Old Testament (Genesis to Malachi) and the New Testament (Matthew to Revelation) is a use of terms in a way that God never uses them! Genesis to Malachi is referred to in scripture as the scriptures, the law etc, but never the old testament/covenant. So when I use the term old covenant I try to use it in it's scriptural sense, of the covenant that God made with Israel at Sinai. judy: Wouldn't Mosaic covenant be more exact Bruce? It was a conditional covenant based on Israel's acceptance of God's terms. See Ex.24:1-8 God has made at least nine covenants throughout history and each one is signified with a manifest token. That token lasts as long as the covenant. Judy: All covenants made with God are conditional - He is the great and awesome God who keeps His covenant and loving kindness for those who love Him and keep his commandments (Daniel 9:4). Bruce: The first unconditional covenant was made with Noah and all flesh in Gen.9. It was signified by the rainbow and is still in force today. God also made an unconditional covenant with Abraham (Gen.17). That covenant was signified with circumcision of Abraham's male descendants, and it also continues forever, as will circumcision of Jews and Arabs. Judy: No covenant is unconditional not even the New Covenant. The covenant with Abraham as well as the New Covenant are not between unequal parties. Abraham did not walk through the pieces, God did. In the New Covenant Jesus walked through the pieces on our behalf so the covenant is between God the Father and God the Son. Like Mephibosheth we enter the Covenant through adoption (as sons) by the King. We are heirs to a previously established covenant between God the Father and His son Jesus. Bruce: But the covenant made at Sinai was signified with the visible token of the sprinkling of blood of animal sacrifice. That covenant ended with the sacrifice of Christ and the rending of the vail of the temple. Judy: The Mosaic covenant was a revelation of God's holiness and His desire for a holy people. The Hebrews had found themselves in bondage to Egypt because they were transgressing the Abrahamic covenant (they were not obedient to its conditions) and so God gave them a tutor or schoolmaster in the form of law until the time of the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham (Gal 3:23-25) Bruce: It is not me or the RCC that vanished that covenant! God did! Heb.8:13 says, In that He (God) saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Judy: Note that Hebrews 9:1 describes that what was vanishing were the ordinances of divine service and the worldly sanctuary and not God's statutes and commandments which according to Hebrews 8: 10-12 had been put into their minds and written on their hearts. (2) The new covenant is NOT Matthew to Revelation! The new covenant was made at Calvary. So actually almost all the events of the Gospel records are under the old covenant. Much of the Lord Jesus' teaching in the Gospels is teaching relative to relationships that would be true when He had dedicated the new covenant. But the use of temple buildings which He called My Father's house was an old covenant practice. The vail was rent when Jesus died indicating that God no longer dwelt in temples made with hands (Acts 7:48 and 17:24) and that the way of access into the holiest was now made open through the blood of Christ (Heb.10:19-22) Judy: God never did dwell in temples made with hands; Acts 7:48 refers to the prophet Nathan who told David to do what was on his heart but later returned with a word from God see (2 Sam 7:5-17). Vs.13 does not speak of Solomon; we know that Solomon's kingdom did not last forever, this verse refers to Jesus who is the one with the everlasting kingdom. Bruce: Under the old covenant, one always had to be in the right PLACE to worship God. God always had His dwelling in PLACES! But the major feature of the new covenant is that God's dwelling is now in PEOPLE. That is why we can worship Him anywhere at all...WE ARE THE TEMPLE! That is why many believers who recognize new covenant truths say, We don't GO TO CHURCH, we ARE THE CHURCH! You simply cannot go to yourself, so if God dwells in you, you cannot go to where He dwells either! Judy: God dwells in us by His Spirit and yes corporately we are in the process of being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood. (1 Peter 2:5). Scripture also tells me that my physical body is the temple of the Holy Spirit but I am the only one who can worship there and I am
Re: [TruthTalk]Covenants
Hi Judy, You wrote: Wouldn't Mosaic covenant be more exact Bruce? Actually, this covenant is not spoken of as being made with Moses, but is designated by... -where it was made: Deut.29:1 in Horeb -when it was made: Deut.29:25; I Kings 8:9; when He brought them out of Egypt. -with whom it was made: I Kings 8:9 with the children of Israel You wrote: All covenants made with God are conditional - He is the great and awesome God who keeps His covenant and loving kindness for those who love Him and keep his commandments (Daniel 9:4). God makes covenants with men. The covenant that is in view in Dan.9:4 is the covenant that God made with Israel after they came out of Egypt! It WAS CONDITIONED UPON THEIR OBEDIENCE! See Ex.19:5 You wrote: No covenant is unconditional not even the New Covenant. The covenant with Abraham as well as the New Covenant are not between unequal parties. Abraham did not walk through the pieces, God did. In the New Covenant Jesus walked through the pieces on our behalf so the covenant is between God the Father and God the Son. Like Mephibosheth we enter the Covenant through adoption (as sons) by the King. We are heirs to a previously established covenant between God the Father and His son Jesus. I'm sorry sister, but there are no covenants in scripture made between divine persons! Covenants were only established AFTER sin had entered into the world and people found by experience that they could not trust one anothers' word or promises! So God began to make covenants (binding promises) to assure sinful human beings that THEY COULD TRUST HIM!. But because there is no distrust between The Father and The Son, there is absolutely no need for any covenants between them! The covenant in Gen.17 was not made BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON! IT was made by God WITH ABRAHAM, and through him with Isaac, Jacob and their seed. SeeExodus 2:24; Leviticus 26:42; 2 Kings 13:23; 1 Chronicles 16:16; and Psalms 105:9 You wrote:The Mosaic covenant was a revelation of God's holiness and His desire for a holy people. The Hebrews had found themselves in bondage to Egypt because they were transgressing the Abrahamic covenant (they were not obedient to its conditions) and so God gave them a tutor or schoolmaster in the form of law until the time of the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham (Gal 3:23-25) Sister, can you be specific about the conditions of the covenant which God made with Abraham which were violated by Israel which violations became the reason why they were in Egyptian bondage?? Where does scripture state this idea?? You wrote:Note that Hebrews 9:1 describes that what was vanishing were the ordinances of divine service and the worldly sanctuary and not God's statutes and commandments which according to Hebrews 8: 10-12 had been put into their minds and written on their hearts. Sister, I would remind you that the worldly sanctuary of Heb.9 along with it's furnishings, the ark the cherubim etc had passed away centuries before Hebrews 9!!! Also Heb.8:10-12 does NOT say that God would put His statutes and commandments into their hearts but rather His LAWS. Deut. 4:13 defines the specific contents of the covenant that was first made with them children of Israel as THE TEN COMMANDMENTS! This is precisely the first covenant (Heb.8:7-9) which decayed, waxed old and was ready to vanish away when the Book of Hebrews was written nearly two millenia ago! The book of the law in which the curses were written (Gal.3:10) was the Book of Deuteronomy! See Deuteronomy 29:21; 30:10; 31:26; Joshua 1:8 Such was only a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ and we are NO LONGER UNDER THAT SCHOOLMASTER, BUT ARE RATHER THE CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS! (Gal.3:21-26) You wrote:God never did dwell in temples made with hands; Acts 7:48 refers to the prophet Nathan who told David to do what was on his heart but later returned with a word from God see (2 Sam 7:5-17). Vs.13 does not speak of Solomon; we know that Solomon's kingdom did not last forever, this verse refers to Jesus who is the one with the everlasting kingdom. Judy, Exodus 25:8 specificly tells us that that children of Israel were to build the tabernacle as a sanctuary so God could dwell among them. True, it was a TENT and NOT a HOUSE as II Sam.7 states. But AFTER Solomon's temple was built, God did dwell there! The Lord Jesus stated repeatedly concerning the temple in Jerusalem that it was HIS FATHER'S HOUSE! God also dwelt in the bush, where Moses met Him! See Deut.33:16. You wrote: I agree that most of what we see is lopsided. ATST baby Christians can not be expected to do the work of the ministry, they have to learn. (I don't know what ATST means!) Sister, I do not seek to be disagreeable, but I cannot agree with you assumption that only mature body members can minister. This is never stated in scripture! Think of your grandchildren when they were born: not one of their members
