Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

 
 
Sure it can .  and does.   It is the Col passage that says all thing have been reconciled.   I am just quoting scripture.   I can turn it down.   I can refuse the "draw" of the Spirit if I prefer.   Here is the problem, as I see it.   He has reconciled us unto Himself.   That is what the Book says.  But it also says, "be ye reconciled to God"  (II Cor 5:20).   However you make this last statement work,  I do not think you can allow yourself to effectively change the wording of the Colossians passage.   That is not solving the problem.  That is ignoring the problem.   
 
JD
 
 
 ===
Repentance is indeed important.  Before you repented, you were an enemy of God.  God was angry with you every day.  Now that you are on His side, He is able to love you without the anger or the animosity hindering His blessings He had planned for you.  You were not reconciled to God while you were serving Satan.  Can't work that way.Terry



 
 
  

RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[ShieldsFamily]

David, two weeks ago our church had an outdoor service where we baptized 193
souls.  Every one of them confessed Christ as Lord and Savior when he/she
was baptized.  When do you think they made Him Lord and Savior--while they
were standing in the water, or beforehand? izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 8:32 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

Judy wrote:
> They had to receive the Word of God before being baptized - see the 
> example of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch.

This is true, but the Ethiopian you mention did not say the sinner's prayer.

He asked to be baptized.  This passage tells me several things:  1)  Philip
did not tell him to bow his head and ask Jesus to come into his heart;
otherwise, he would not have said, "if thou believest with all thine heart."

2) the point of his public confession of Christ was water baptism rather
than an altar call where he says the sinner's prayer.  Reading earlier in
the chapter, Acts 8:12 says that when they believed Philip, they were
baptized.  In modern times, it does not often work that way in Protestant
churches.  What happens is that when the believe, they are led in a prayer. 
"Close your eyes and repeat after me..."  Baptism is usually not even
mentioned, so that new converts often go years attending church without
being baptized.  In my opinion, this is an over-reaction to Roman
Catholicism's emphasis on the saving aspect of baptism through the proper
authority in order to be saved.

The point is not that the sinner's prayer is wrong or bad.  The point is
that leading someone to salvation through saying the sinner's prayer is not
a Biblical tradition.  You and Izzy claim to only believe what you read in
the Scriptures.  If you have ever led someone to salvation by having them
say a prayer, you did not get this tradition from the Scriptures.  The
closest passage I know of would be the tax collector of Luke 18:13-14, but
nobody there led this man in a prayer.  It came from his heart.  The
Biblical tradition of how to lead someone into faith in Christ is to bring
them to the waters of baptism if they believe with all their heart.  I'm
talking about the Biblical model for how a believer would lead another
believer into becoming a disciple of Christ.  Do you agree?

Judy wrote:
> But then some were baptized without a heart change
> - see Simon the magician who even after being baptized wanted to pay 
> money to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> Today if someone rebuked a new believer as Peter did there they would 
> be run out of church; today they would just love them and put them in 
> the choir.

So very true and so very sad.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

  -Original Message-From: Judith H Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:31:14 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14



 
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:15:53 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



 
I believe that Philip 2:12-13 presents us with the teaching that God is the reason for  our will to do the right thing and our ability to accomplish such   --   that this applies to all of mankind since the Reconciliation  (Col 1:17-24).  When I read that "No man comes to me except the Father draws him,"  I think of this Philip passage.   And in John 3:21,  I see this thinking confirmed.  In that passage, we practice the truth and (then) come to the Light.   Christ manifests or reveals that this practice of truth was actually accomplish  "in God."   Before coming to Christ,  I have a relationship of sorts with God.   This is why repentance is so important.   Before repentance, God is a work in me but I am not his partner  --  not a good thing.   After repentance,  I have fellowship  or "joint
 participation"  with God  (Philip 2:1).   
 
Judy: JD you need to take ALL scripture into consideration. John 3:36 teaches that the wrath of God CONTINUES
to abide on those who do not believe the Son.  I don't get the idea that God is working in them when His wrath
CONTINUES to abide on them.  What would make you believe this??
 
It is the wrath of the heavenly Father.   Don't you see that when our heavenly parent is angry with us, He is still working His will in us  -- even if this be through some kind of discipline  (and I accept some of your perspective, here, for the sake of argument).  
 
Repentance is a change of mind  -  getting things right in our minds  --  a turning around.  When I "receive the Spirit,"  I am accepting a gifted presence already a part of who I am as a result of reconciliation.  In Christ, the works of God (done  even  before I came  into light) are manifested to be the works of God, Himself  (again--John3:21).  Read for yourself and see how this passage (John 3:21) is related to John 3:3  and the other passages I have mentioned. JD
 
Judy:  John you are leaving out great blocks of truth; when I read what you write I get the idea that some spirit
is doing all the work from inside ppl.  However scripture teaches that God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Jesus (the "Word")  First ppl must receive the Word and obey which begins with repentance because those who receive His testimony certify that God is true.  Look at the example we have in the first Church:
 
Acts 6:7 "The Word of God increased"
Acts 12:24 "The Word of God grew and multiplied"
Acts 19:20 "Mightily grew the Word of God and prevailed"
 
Why not pray for the Father to reveal God the Word to you?  This is who He was before the "incarnation"
 
I believe there is a functional separation between "The Word" and "The Son."   I do not believe there is an ontological separation.  Before, after and during   -  He was both The Word and The Son.   
 
and this is who He is in the book of Acts.  God has promised that His Word will not return void Isaiah 55:11.
Without the truth of His Word - all spiritual activity is suspect.   judyt
 
You confuse the spoken word and God the Word. But I have not the time at this moment. Got to go bid a job.  
 
 
JD
 
 
 
  -Original Message-----From: Terry Clifton <wabbits1234@earthlink.net>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:39:37 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14


John, do you see a big difference in the terms "Born again" and "New creature in Christ"?   My own thinking is that it would be hard to be a NEW creature without being born again.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



 
My argument was quite biblical.  When you want to honestly discuss the issue, let me know.   
This post is not that effort.   
 
JD
 
  -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:41:47 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is not that we do not or cannot understand.  Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message.   
 
jt: This is interesting JD - what's wrong with the message? It's Bible.  You must be Born Again.
Raised from spiritual death to spiritual life IOW by hearing His Voice and not hardening your heart.
No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him  --  
 
jt: Right!  God draws men by way of the "foolishness of preaching"  They hear God's Word and the Spirit
works in their hard old heart after telling the spirit clouding their mind to "shut up"
God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the Christ issue.  
 
jt: So what is the Christ issue?  Aside from His Word that is?
Philip 2:13  

RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[ShieldsFamily]

I would agree, David, if I knew any other way of talking to Jesus today
except through prayer.  "Sinner's prayer" is just the wording I used to
express the fact that the person needs to confess and receive Jesus as Lord
and Savior.  There is no template--it comes from the heart.  It is just the
way a person can speak out his faith and ask God to indwell and lead him. Do
you have a problem with that? The folks who lived in Jesus day could walk
right up to Him, talk to Him, and follow Him around with His pack of
disciples.  We can't do that. But people from one end of the other of the
Bible found ways to invite God into their lives and make Him their Lord.
izzy 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 6:18 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

JD wrote:
>> Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures "inviting the Lord 
>> into their lives?"

Izzy wrote:
> We see it all the time.  Did they leave that part out of your 
> translation also?

I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord
into their lives through saying "the sinner's prayer."  Rather, they were
led into the waters of baptism rather than into saying a prayer.  Do you
recognize this Izzy?

The sinner's prayer is not a Biblical way of leading people to faith in
Christ and the experience of being born again.  If anyone accepts this
method as valid, it is not because they learned it directly from the Bible. 
Do you agree?

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Terry Clifton]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
   
  I believe that Philip 2:12-13 presents us with the teaching that
God is the reason for  our will to do the right thing and our ability
to accomplish such   --   that this applies to all of
mankind since the Reconciliation  (Col
1:17-24).  When I read that "No man comes to me except the Father draws
him,"  I think of this Philip passage.   And in John 3:21,  I see this
thinking confirmed.  In that passage, we practice the truth and (then)
come to the Light.   Christ manifests or reveals that this practice of
truth was actually accomplish  "in God."   Before coming to Christ,  I
have a relationship of sorts with God.   This is why repentance is so
important.   Before repentance, God is a work in me but I am not his
partner  --  not a good thing.   After repentance,  I have
fellowship  or "joint participation"  with God  (Philip 2:1).   
  Repentance is a change of mind  -  getting things right in our
minds  --  a turning around.  When I "receive the Spirit,"  I am
accepting a gifted presence already a part of who I am as a result of
reconciliation.  In Christ, the works of God (done  even  before I
came  into light) are manifested to be the works of
God, Himself  (again--John3:21). 
Read for yourself and see how this passage (John 3:21) is related to
John 3:3  and the other passages I have mentioned.  .   
   
  JD
   ===
  
  

Repentance is indeed important.  Before you repented, you were an enemy
of God.  God was angry with you every day.  Now that you are on His
side, He is able to love you without the anger or the animosity
hindering His blessings He had planned for you.  You were not
reconciled to God while you were serving Satan.  Can't work that way.
Terry

  
  
   
   
   
 
  
  

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Judith H Taylor]

From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Judy wrote:
> They had to receive the Word of God before being baptized - see the
example of Philip and the Ethiopian
> eunuch.

This is true, but the Ethiopian you mention did not say the sinner's
prayer. He asked to be baptized.  This passage tells me several things:  
1)  Philip did not tell him to bow his head and ask Jesus to come into
his heart; otherwise, he would not have said, "if thou believest with 
all thine heart." 

jt: If you look at the passage of scripture the Ethiopian was reading and
not understanding Isaiah 53:7,8 it is all about the sacrifice
for our transgression.  The man had been to Jerusalem to worship so
apparently he had enough background to put it all together
I don't believe he was under the assumption that he was being saved by
baptism; I would say that he received the Word, the
Holy Spirit gave him understanding and that this was a baptism of
repentance.

2) the point of his public confession of Christ was water baptism rather
than an altar call where he says the sinner's prayer.  Reading earlier in

the chapter, Acts 8:12 says that when they believed Philip, they were
baptized.  In modern times, it does not often work that way in Protestant

churches.  What happens is that when the believe, they are led in a
prayer. "Close your eyes and repeat after me..."  Baptism is usually not
even 
mentioned, so that new converts often go years attending church without
being baptized.  In my opinion, this is an over-reaction to Roman 
Catholicism's emphasis on the saving aspect of baptism through the proper
authority in order to be saved.

jt: Maybe so.  Last night we were discussing a church our family used to
attend in VaBch which would preach the Word, call sinners to repentance
by beliving on Jesus and baptise them after the service (right away)
believing for the baptism of Jesus in the Holy Spirit also
and these people would come up out of the water speaking in tongues. 
Last night I met a girl who graduated from a High School that was
situated at the back of this church.  She got curious and went with some
of her friends and this was her experience back when she was 19yrs old.
She is now md with a 14yr old and a 4yr old and the conversion stuck -
she and her husband are pressing on and raising godly sons.

The point is not that the sinner's prayer is wrong or bad.  The point is
that leading someone to salvation through saying the sinner's prayer is
not 
a Biblical tradition.  You and Izzy claim to only believe what you read
in the Scriptures.  If you have ever led someone to salvation by having
them 
say a prayer, you did not get this tradition from the Scriptures.  

jt: How does one repent and commit publicly aside from prayer? Especially
when there is no baptismal or water handy. I think this is straining at
gnats because God has honored it, especially at Billy Graham and other
evangelistic rallies.

The closest passage I know of would be the tax collector of Luke
18:13-14, but nobody there led this man in a prayer.  It came from his
heart.  The Biblical tradition of how to lead someone into faith in
Christ is to bring them to the waters of baptism if they believe with all
their heart.  I'm 
talking about the Biblical model for how a believer would lead another
believer into becoming a disciple of Christ.  Do you agree?

jt: That may be the best way David but there is so much error associated
with baptism because of the false teachings of the RCC which is probably
why (as you have pointed out) some wait and disciple ppl a little longer.

Judy wrote:
But then some were baptized without a heart change - see Simon the
magician who even after being baptized wanted to pay money to receive the
gift of the Holy Spirit.  Today if someone rebuked a new believer as
Peter did there they would be run out of church; today they would just
love them and put them in the choir.

So very true and so very sad.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[David Miller]

Judy wrote:
> They had to receive the Word of God before being
> baptized - see the example of Philip and the Ethiopian
> eunuch.

This is true, but the Ethiopian you mention did not say the sinner's prayer. 
He asked to be baptized.  This passage tells me several things:  1)  Philip 
did not tell him to bow his head and ask Jesus to come into his heart; 
otherwise, he would not have said, "if thou believest with all thine heart." 
2) the point of his public confession of Christ was water baptism rather 
than an altar call where he says the sinner's prayer.  Reading earlier in 
the chapter, Acts 8:12 says that when they believed Philip, they were 
baptized.  In modern times, it does not often work that way in Protestant 
churches.  What happens is that when the believe, they are led in a prayer. 
"Close your eyes and repeat after me..."  Baptism is usually not even 
mentioned, so that new converts often go years attending church without 
being baptized.  In my opinion, this is an over-reaction to Roman 
Catholicism's emphasis on the saving aspect of baptism through the proper 
authority in order to be saved.

The point is not that the sinner's prayer is wrong or bad.  The point is 
that leading someone to salvation through saying the sinner's prayer is not 
a Biblical tradition.  You and Izzy claim to only believe what you read in 
the Scriptures.  If you have ever led someone to salvation by having them 
say a prayer, you did not get this tradition from the Scriptures.  The 
closest passage I know of would be the tax collector of Luke 18:13-14, but 
nobody there led this man in a prayer.  It came from his heart.  The 
Biblical tradition of how to lead someone into faith in Christ is to bring 
them to the waters of baptism if they believe with all their heart.  I'm 
talking about the Biblical model for how a believer would lead another 
believer into becoming a disciple of Christ.  Do you agree?

Judy wrote:
> But then some were baptized without a heart change
> - see Simon the magician who even after being baptized
> wanted to pay money to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> Today if someone rebuked a new believer as Peter did
> there they would be run out of church; today they
> would just love them and put them in the choir.

So very true and so very sad.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Judith H Taylor]

They had to receive the Word of God before being baptized - see the example 
of Philip and the
Ethiopian eunuch.  But then some were baptized without a heart change 
- see Simon the magician
who even after being baptized wanted to pay money to receive the gift of 
the Holy Spirit.  Today if
someone rebuked a new believer as Peter did there they would be run out of 
church; today they
would just love them and put them in the choir.   judyt
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:37:31 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
   
  Why would you write this:   I think John's point is that in 
  the Bible, people did not invite the Lord into their lives through saying 
  "the sinner's prayer."  Rather, they were led into the waters of 
  baptism rather than into saying a prayer. ?
   
  JD
   
    -Original Message-From: David Miller 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 
  Jul 2005 08:17:47 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
  

  JD wrote:
>> Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures
>> "inviting the Lord into their lives?"

Izzy wrote:
> We see it all the time.  Did they leave that part out
> of your translation also?

I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord 
into their lives through saying "the sinner's prayer."  Rather, they were 
led into the waters of baptism rather than into saying a prayer.  Do you 
recognize this Izzy?

The sinner's prayer is not a Biblical way of leading people to faith in 
Christ and the experience of being born again.  If anyone accepts this 
method as valid, it is not because they learned it directly from the Bible. 
Do you agree?

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how 
you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend 
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and 
he will be subscribed.

   

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Judith H Taylor]

 
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:15:53 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
   
  I believe that Philip 2:12-13 presents us with the teaching that God is 
  the reason for  our will to do the right thing and our ability to 
  accomplish such   --   that this applies to 
  all of mankind since the Reconciliation  (Col 1:17-24).  When I read that "No man comes to me except 
  the Father draws him,"  I think of this Philip passage.   And 
  in John 3:21,  I see this thinking confirmed.  In that passage, we 
  practice the truth and (then) come to the Light.   Christ manifests 
  or reveals that this practice of truth was actually accomplish  "in 
  God."   Before coming to Christ,  I have a relationship of 
  sorts with God.   This is why repentance is so 
  important.   Before repentance, God is a work in me but I am not his 
  partner  --  not a good thing.   After repentance,  I 
  have fellowship  or "joint participation"  with God  
  (Philip 2:1).   
   
  Judy: JD you need to take ALL scripture into consideration. John 3:36 
  teaches that the wrath of God CONTINUES
  to abide on those who do not believe the Son.  I don't get the idea 
  that God is working in them when His wrath
  CONTINUES to abide on them.  What would make you believe 
this??
   
   
  Repentance is a change of mind  -  getting things right in our 
  minds  --  a turning around.  When I "receive the 
  Spirit,"  I am accepting a gifted presence already a part of who I am as 
  a result of reconciliation.  In Christ, the works of God 
  (done  even  before I came  into light) are 
  manifested to be the works of God, Himself  (again--John3:21).  Read for yourself and see how 
  this passage (John 3:21) is related to John 3:3  and the other passages I 
  have mentioned. JD
   
  Judy:  John you are leaving out great blocks 
  of truth; when I read what you write I get the idea that some 
  spirit
  is doing all the work from inside ppl.  
  However scripture teaches that God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who 
  obey Jesus (the "Word")  First ppl must receive the Word and obey which 
  begins with repentance because those who receive His testimony certify that 
  God is true.  Look at the example we have in the first 
  Church:
   
  Acts 6:7 "The Word of God increased"
  Acts 12:24 "The Word of God grew and 
  multiplied"
  Acts 19:20 "Mightily grew the Word of God and 
  prevailed"
   
  Why not pray for the Father to reveal God the Word 
  to you?  This is who He was before the "incarnation"
  and this is who He is in the book of Acts.  
  God has promised that His Word will not return void Isaiah 55:11.
  Without the truth of His Word - all spiritual 
  activity is suspect.   judyt
   
   
   
    -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton 
  <wabbits1234@earthlink.net>To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:39:37 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 
  16:13,14
  

  John, do you see a 
  big difference in the terms "Born again" and "New creature in 
  Christ"?   My own thinking is that it would be hard to be a NEW 
  creature without being born again.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: 
  


 
My argument was quite biblical.  When you want to honestly discuss 
the issue, let me know.   
This post is not that effort.   
 
JD
 
  -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor 
<jandgtaylor1@juno.com>To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: 
Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:41:47 
-0400Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is not that we do not 
or cannot understand.  Rather, it is that we do understand but 
reject the message.   
 
jt: This is interesting JD - what's wrong with the 
message? It's Bible.  You must be Born Again.
Raised from spiritual death to spiritual life IOW by 
hearing His Voice and not hardening your heart.
No man comes to Christ except the Father 
draw him  --  
 
jt: Right!  God draws men by way of the 
"foolishness of preaching"  They hear God's Word and the 
Spirit
works in their hard old heart after telling the 
spirit clouding their mind to "shut up"
God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the 
Christ issue.  
 
jt: So what is the Christ issue?  Aside from His 
Word that is?
Philip 2:13  ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a 
statement of fact for us all  --   saved and 
unsaved.   
 
jt: Nonsense. The unsaved have the devil working in them 
(see Ephesians 2:1)
If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse!  
 
jt: Yes because it is God's will that all come to the 
knowledge of truth and He will make a way for them to hear.
God in Christ has broken down all

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

Sorry,  I hit the wrong button  --  wasn't finished.   Understanding what "born again is," (previous post) I agree with your thinkiing entirely... being a "new creature" has everything to do with our fellowship or joint participation in the Spirit  (Phil 2:1).   
 
JD  -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:39:37 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14


John, do you see a big difference in the terms "Born again" and "New creature in Christ"?   My own thinking is that it would be hard to be a NEW creature without being born again.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



 
My argument was quite biblical.  When you want to honestly discuss the issue, let me know.   
This post is not that effort.   
 
JD
 
  -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:41:47 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is not that we do not or cannot understand.  Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message.   
 
jt: This is interesting JD - what's wrong with the message? It's Bible.  You must be Born Again.
Raised from spiritual death to spiritual life IOW by hearing His Voice and not hardening your heart.
No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him  --  
 
jt: Right!  God draws men by way of the "foolishness of preaching"  They hear God's Word and the Spirit
works in their hard old heart after telling the spirit clouding their mind to "shut up"
God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the Christ issue.  
 
jt: So what is the Christ issue?  Aside from His Word that is?
Philip 2:13  ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a statement of fact for us all  --   saved and unsaved.   
 
jt: Nonsense. The unsaved have the devil working in them (see Ephesians 2:1)
If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse!  
 
jt: Yes because it is God's will that all come to the knowledge of truth and He will make a way for them to hear.
God in Christ has broken down all the barriers ( read: reconciled all things unto Himself) 
 
jt: The above is objective truth.
 
and has a presence within each of us (different from a filling of the Spirit).  
 
jt: The above is not truth at all it is presumption - how is God present in those who reject Him?
The lost reject this reconciliation and God's "draw" within.  
 
jt: The lost have been estranged from the womb and they reject His voice just like Israel did in the wilderness - they harden their hearts and stiffen their necks.
We are probably in agreement  --  but with different words
 
jt: I don't think so JD - this is a "great gulf" - it's more than just semantics.  We have two different gospels here.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

 
I believe that Philip 2:12-13 presents us with the teaching that God is the reason for  our will to do the right thing and our ability to accomplish such   --   that this applies to all of mankind since the Reconciliation  (Col 1:17-24).  When I read that "No man comes to me except the Father draws him,"  I think of this Philip passage.   And in John 3:21,  I see this thinking confirmed.  In that passage, we practice the truth and (then) come to the Light.   Christ manifests or reveals that this practice of truth was actually accomplish  "in God."   Before coming to Christ,  I have a relationship of sorts with God.   This is why repentance is so important.   Before repentance, God is a work in me but I am not his partner  --  not a good thing.   After repentance,  I have fellowship  or "joint participation"  with God 
 (Philip 2:1).   
Repentance is a change of mind  -  getting things right in our minds  --  a turning around.  When I "receive the Spirit,"  I am accepting a gifted presence already a part of who I am as a result of reconciliation.  In Christ, the works of God (done  even  before I came  into light) are manifested to be the works of God, Himself  (again--John3:21).  Read for yourself and see how this passage (John 3:21) is related to John 3:3  and the other passages I have mentioned.  .   
 
JD
 
 
 
  -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton <wabbits1234@earthlink.net>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:39:37 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14


John, do you see a big difference in the terms "Born again" and "New creature in Christ"?   My own thinking is that it would be hard to be a NEW creature without being born again.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



 
My argument was quite biblical.  When you want to honestly discuss the issue, let me know.   
This post is not that effort.   
 
JD
 
  -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:41:47 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is not that we do not or cannot understand.  Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message.   
 
jt: This is interesting JD - what's wrong with the message? It's Bible.  You must be Born Again.
Raised from spiritual death to spiritual life IOW by hearing His Voice and not hardening your heart.
No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him  --  
 
jt: Right!  God draws men by way of the "foolishness of preaching"  They hear God's Word and the Spirit
works in their hard old heart after telling the spirit clouding their mind to "shut up"
God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the Christ issue.  
 
jt: So what is the Christ issue?  Aside from His Word that is?
Philip 2:13  ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a statement of fact for us all  --   saved and unsaved.   
 
jt: Nonsense. The unsaved have the devil working in them (see Ephesians 2:1)
If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse!  
 
jt: Yes because it is God's will that all come to the knowledge of truth and He will make a way for them to hear.
God in Christ has broken down all the barriers ( read: reconciled all things unto Himself) 
 
jt: The above is objective truth.
 
and has a presence within each of us (different from a filling of the Spirit).  
 
jt: The above is not truth at all it is presumption - how is God present in those who reject Him?
The lost reject this reconciliation and God's "draw" within.  
 
jt: The lost have been estranged from the womb and they reject His voice just like Israel did in the wilderness - they harden their hearts and stiffen their necks.
We are probably in agreement  --  but with different words
 
jt: I don't think so JD - this is a "great gulf" - it's more than just semantics.  We have two different gospels here.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Terry Clifton]

I think we may be quibbling over nothing.  We are told to seek the
Lord, so what do we do when we find Him?  Tell Him to stay out of our
life?




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  Do a little comparative reading on verse v. 37  --  it is not in
my bile of choice  (NASV)  But
even with its inclusion  --  "    but I see nothing there that
conflicts with what I said.  Do you?  
   
  JD 
 
-Original Message-
From: Terry Clifton <wabbits1234@earthlink.net>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:02:42
-0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
  
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
  


Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures "inviting the Lord into their lives?"   
 


  
=
Check out the Etheopean eunuch. 
See if he doesn't fit that picture.
  

  

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Terry Clifton]

John, do you see a big difference in the terms "Born again" and "New
creature in Christ"?   My own thinking is that it would be hard to be a
NEW creature without being born again.
Terry

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
   
  My argument was quite biblical.  When you want to honestly
discuss the issue, let me know.   
  This post is not that effort.   
   
  JD
   
   
 
-Original Message-
From: Judy Taylor 
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:41:47
-0400
Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It is not that we do not or cannot understand.  
Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message.   
   
  jt:
This is interesting JD - what's
wrong with the message? It's Bible.  You must be Born Again.
  Raised from spiritual death to spiritual
life IOW by hearing His Voice
and not hardening your heart.
  
  
  No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him  --  
   
  jt:
Right!  God draws men by way of the "foolishness of preaching"  They
hear God's Word and the Spirit
  works in their hard old heart after
telling the spirit clouding their mind to "shut up"
  
God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the Christ
issue.  
   
  jt:
So what is the Christ issue?  Aside from His Word that is?
  
Philip 2:13  ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a statement
of fact for us all  --   saved and unsaved.   
   
  jt:
Nonsense. The unsaved have the devil working in them (see Ephesians 2:1)
  
If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse!  
   
  jt:
Yes because it is God's will that all come to the knowledge of truth
and He will make a way for them to hear.
  
God in Christ has broken down all the barriers ( read: reconciled all
things unto Himself) 
   
  jt:
The above is objective truth.
   
  and has a presence within each of us (different from a filling
of the Spirit).  
   
  jt:
The above is not truth at all it is presumption - how is God present in
those who reject Him?
  
The lost reject this reconciliation and God's "draw" within.  
   
  jt:
The lost have been estranged from the womb and they reject His voice
just like Israel did in the wilderness - they harden their hearts and
stiffen their necks.
  
We are probably in agreement  --  but with different words
   
  jt:
I don't think so JD - this is a
"great gulf" - it's more than just semantics.  We have two different
gospels here.
  

  

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

 
Why would you write this:   I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord into their lives through saying "the sinner's prayer."  Rather, they were led into the waters of baptism rather than into saying a prayer. ?
 
JD
 
  -Original Message-From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:17:47 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14


JD wrote:
>> Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures
>> "inviting the Lord into their lives?"

Izzy wrote:
> We see it all the time.  Did they leave that part out
> of your translation also?

I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord 
into their lives through saying "the sinner's prayer."  Rather, they were 
led into the waters of baptism rather than into saying a prayer.  Do you 
recognize this Izzy?

The sinner's prayer is not a Biblical way of leading people to faith in 
Christ and the experience of being born again.  If anyone accepts this 
method as valid, it is not because they learned it directly from the Bible. 
Do you agree?

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how 
you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend 
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and 
he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[David Miller]

JD wrote:
>> Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures
>> "inviting the Lord into their lives?"

Izzy wrote:
> We see it all the time.  Did they leave that part out
> of your translation also?

I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord 
into their lives through saying "the sinner's prayer."  Rather, they were 
led into the waters of baptism rather than into saying a prayer.  Do you 
recognize this Izzy?

The sinner's prayer is not a Biblical way of leading people to faith in 
Christ and the experience of being born again.  If anyone accepts this 
method as valid, it is not because they learned it directly from the Bible. 
Do you agree?

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

Dang  !!  -Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:45:53 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14


John, could Freud (or Kevin) have been right? You wrote: >"it is not in my bile of choice (NASV) ..." :-) > >JD  -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org  If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. 

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Charles Perry Locke]

John, could Freud (or Kevin) have been right? You wrote:

"it is not in my bile of choice  (NASV)  ..." :-)

JD



--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

Do a little comparative reading on verse v. 37  --  it is not in my bile of choice  (NASV)  But even with its inclusion  --  "    but I see nothing there that conflicts with what I said.  Do you?  
 
JD  -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton <wabbits1234@earthlink.net>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:02:42 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures "inviting the Lord into their lives?"    =Check out the Etheopean eunuch.  See if he doesn't fit that picture.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

 
My argument was quite biblical.  When you want to honestly discuss the issue, let me know.   
This post is not that effort.   
 
JD
 
  -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:41:47 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is not that we do not or cannot understand.  Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message.   
 
jt: This is interesting JD - what's wrong with the message? It's Bible.  You must be Born Again.
Raised from spiritual death to spiritual life IOW by hearing His Voice and not hardening your heart.
No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him  --  
 
jt: Right!  God draws men by way of the "foolishness of preaching"  They hear God's Word and the Spirit
works in their hard old heart after telling the spirit clouding their mind to "shut up"
God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the Christ issue.  
 
jt: So what is the Christ issue?  Aside from His Word that is?
Philip 2:13  ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a statement of fact for us all  --   saved and unsaved.   
 
jt: Nonsense. The unsaved have the devil working in them (see Ephesians 2:1)
If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse!  
 
jt: Yes because it is God's will that all come to the knowledge of truth and He will make a way for them to hear.
God in Christ has broken down all the barriers ( read: reconciled all things unto Himself) 
 
jt: The above is objective truth.
 
and has a presence within each of us (different from a filling of the Spirit).  
 
jt: The above is not truth at all it is presumption - how is God present in those who reject Him?
The lost reject this reconciliation and God's "draw" within.  
 
jt: The lost have been estranged from the womb and they reject His voice just like Israel did in the wilderness - they harden their hearts and stiffen their necks.
We are probably in agreement  --  but with different words
 
jt: I don't think so JD - this is a "great gulf" - it's more than just semantics.  We have two different gospels here.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

Not in any of my translations  -- let's see;  I have three Gk interlinear's , a KJV,  RSV< NASV, NLB, NET and The Message     nope, not in any of these.  Where do you find it in yours?
 
JD  -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:47:24 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14






We see it all the time.  Did they leave that part out of your translation also? iz
 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 5:23 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
 



Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures "inviting the Lord into their lives?"   
 -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:14:39 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14


Bill, I think the error here is in thinking that being born again must include a powerful emotional experience.  If that is the criteria by which your pastor judges it is not a biblical model. I believe in simply having the person pray a prayer of repentance for sin, and invite Jesus to be their Lord and Savior, and asking the Holy Spirit to fill and guide them.  It is a simple, unemotional event.  It is based on faith, not on emotion.  If emotions follow, that is wonderful, but certainly not necessary.  I would have prayed such a prayer with your friend so that he would know for sure that he had done the right thing. His doubts would disappear, and God would honor his sweet heart?s intent.  izzy

 

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:38 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

 

I am glad, David, that you are not immediately jumping to conclusions,

either about this man -- his faith, obedience, etc. -- or as to how we may

have counseled him through this crisis of faith. Thank you. It demonstrates

spiritual maturing on your part.

 

This was a man who had confessed many times that Jesus is Lord and had

demonstrated as well as any of us are able to tell that he believed in his

heart that God had raised Jesus from the dead. The problem was not his soul

condition, it was with his theological conditioning. Our pastor had been

drilling us for weeks with the same old "you must be born again" stuff,

which was more of the same old thing which he had been hearing and teaching

and living out his whole life. The problem was our pasture had grounded this

teaching not in Jesus Christ but in our existential encounter. If we had not

had a powerful conversion experience, then we had good reason to question

our salvation. Well, here was a man who, because of his Christian

"experience," having been raised by godly parents in the church and believed

the truth of Jesus Christ his entire life, had never had one of those

experiences where you're supposed to feel the ground shake. The truth was,

he had never not believed. As a good friend of mine says, if he would have

repented he would have had to stop believing. He had always believed from as

far back as he could remember. He had just been deceived into thinking that

his salvation was in jeopardy because he had not had a "powerful conversion

experience." Of course, our pasture was convinced he was going to bring this

poor old man to the Lord. And so he pounded him and drilled him and only

made things worse -- but, thankfully, I was able to visit with him and

ground his belief in Jesus Christ and bring him to a faithful assurance of

his salvation in Jesus Christ, his Savior.

 

But what a travesty to have done this to that man. You surely do not have to

agree with me concerning "born again" and when that takes place, to

understand the dilemma that bad theology had placed us -- him especially --

in. To jump to conclusions and immediately start seeing red flags going up,

is only to confirm your own lack of awareness and biblical sensitivity here.

Thank you for not doing that.

 

Bill

- Original Message -

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>

Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:47 AM

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

 

 

> Judy wrote:

> > How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray

> > with this man who was obviously under conviction

> > of the Spirit? ...

> > A born again person who is right with God knows

> > they are born again and right with God.  If they don't

> > know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying

> > out for help.

> 

> For what it's worth, I had kind of the same reaction to reading this.  I

> hear of long term Christian men growing up in

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Terry Clifton]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures "inviting the
Lord into their lives?"   
 
  
  

=
Check out the Etheopean eunuch.  See if he doesn't fit that picture.

RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[ShieldsFamily]

We see it all the time.  Did they
leave that part out of your translation also? iz

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 5:23
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14



 







Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures
"inviting the Lord into their lives?"   



 
-Original Message-
From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:14:39 -0500
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14





Bill, I think the
error here is in thinking that being born again must include a powerful
emotional experience.  If that is the criteria by which your pastor judges
it is not a biblical model. I believe in simply having the person pray a prayer
of repentance for sin, and invite Jesus to be their Lord and Savior, and asking
the Holy Spirit to fill and guide them.  It is a simple, unemotional
event.  It is based on faith, not on emotion.  If emotions follow,
that is wonderful, but certainly not necessary.  I would have prayed such
a prayer with your friend so that he would know for sure that he had done the
right thing. His doubts would disappear, and God would honor his sweet heart?s
intent.  izzy





 





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:38 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14





 





I am glad, David, that you are not immediately
jumping to conclusions,





either about this man -- his faith, obedience, etc.
-- or as to how we may





have counseled him through this crisis of faith.
Thank you. It demonstrates





spiritual maturing on your part.





 





This was a man who had confessed many times that
Jesus is Lord and had





demonstrated as well as any of us are able to tell
that he believed in his





heart that God had raised Jesus from the dead. The
problem was not his soul





condition, it was with his theological conditioning.
Our pastor had been





drilling us for weeks with the same old "you
must be born again" stuff,





which was more of the same old thing which he had
been hearing and teaching





and living out his whole life. The problem was our
pasture had grounded this





teaching not in Jesus Christ but in our existential
encounter. If we had not





had a powerful conversion experience, then we had
good reason to question





our salvation. Well, here was a man who, because of
his Christian





"experience," having been raised by godly
parents in the church and believed





the truth of Jesus Christ his entire life, had never
had one of those





experiences where you're supposed to feel the ground
shake. The truth was,





he had never not believed. As a good friend of mine
says, if he would have





repented he would have had to stop believing. He had
always believed from as





far back as he could remember. He had just been
deceived into thinking that





his salvation was in jeopardy because he had not had
a "powerful conversion





experience." Of course, our pasture was
convinced he was going to bring this





poor old man to the Lord. And so he pounded him and
drilled him and only





made things worse -- but, thankfully, I was able to
visit with him and





ground his belief in Jesus Christ and bring him to a
faithful assurance of





his salvation in Jesus Christ, his Savior.





 





But what a travesty to have done this to that man.
You surely do not have to





agree with me concerning "born again" and
when that takes place, to





understand the dilemma that bad theology had placed
us -- him especially --





in. To jump to conclusions and immediately start
seeing red flags going up,





is only to confirm your own lack of awareness and
biblical sensitivity here.





Thank you for not doing that.





 





Bill





- Original Message -





From: "David Miller"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>





To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>





Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:47 AM





Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14





 





 





> Judy wrote:





> > How terribly sad  - did somebody
counsel and pray





> > with this man who was obviously under
conviction





> > of the Spirit? ...





> > A born again person who is right with God
knows





> > they are born again and right with
God.  If they don't





> > know this it is a huge red flag - and this
man was crying





> > out for help.





> 





> For what it's worth, I had kind of the same
reaction to reading this.  I





> hear of long term Christian men growing up in
the church but never having





> had experienced being born again.  I read
a pastor's testimony once who





had





> pastored

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures "inviting the Lord into their lives?"    -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:14:39 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14






Bill, I think the error here is in thinking that being born again must include a powerful emotional experience.  If that is the criteria by which your pastor judges it is not a biblical model. I believe in simply having the person pray a prayer of repentance for sin, and invite Jesus to be their Lord and Savior, and asking the Holy Spirit to fill and guide them.  It is a simple, unemotional event.  It is based on faith, not on emotion.  If emotions follow, that is wonderful, but certainly not necessary.  I would have prayed such a prayer with your friend so that he would know for sure that he had done the right thing. His doubts would disappear, and God would honor his sweet heart?s intent.  izzy
 
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:38 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
 
I am glad, David, that you are not immediately jumping to conclusions,
either about this man -- his faith, obedience, etc. -- or as to how we may
have counseled him through this crisis of faith. Thank you. It demonstrates
spiritual maturing on your part.
 
This was a man who had confessed many times that Jesus is Lord and had
demonstrated as well as any of us are able to tell that he believed in his
heart that God had raised Jesus from the dead. The problem was not his soul
condition, it was with his theological conditioning. Our pastor had been
drilling us for weeks with the same old "you must be born again" stuff,
which was more of the same old thing which he had been hearing and teaching
and living out his whole life. The problem was our pasture had grounded this
teaching not in Jesus Christ but in our existential encounter. If we had not
had a powerful conversion experience, then we had good reason to question
our salvation. Well, here was a man who, because of his Christian
"experience," having been raised by godly parents in the church and believed
the truth of Jesus Christ his entire life, had never had one of those
experiences where you're supposed to feel the ground shake. The truth was,
he had never not believed. As a good friend of mine says, if he would have
repented he would have had to stop believing. He had always believed from as
far back as he could remember. He had just been deceived into thinking that
his salvation was in jeopardy because he had not had a "powerful conversion
experience." Of course, our pasture was convinced he was going to bring this
poor old man to the Lord. And so he pounded him and drilled him and only
made things worse -- but, thankfully, I was able to visit with him and
ground his belief in Jesus Christ and bring him to a faithful assurance of
his salvation in Jesus Christ, his Savior.
 
But what a travesty to have done this to that man. You surely do not have to
agree with me concerning "born again" and when that takes place, to
understand the dilemma that bad theology had placed us -- him especially --
in. To jump to conclusions and immediately start seeing red flags going up,
is only to confirm your own lack of awareness and biblical sensitivity here.
Thank you for not doing that.
 
Bill
- Original Message -
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
 
 
> Judy wrote:
> > How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray
> > with this man who was obviously under conviction
> > of the Spirit? ...
> > A born again person who is right with God knows
> > they are born again and right with God.  If they don't
> > know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying
> > out for help.
> 
> For what it's worth, I had kind of the same reaction to reading this.  I
> hear of long term Christian men growing up in the church but never having
> had experienced being born again.  I read a pastor's testimony once who
had
> pastored a very large traditional church.  He suddenly experienced the new
> birth, and did not know what to do.  He told his congregation from the
> pulpit that he had been a Christian all his life, earned a doctorate in
> theology, pastored for many years, but he had never been born again.  He
> gave his testimony.  It completely split the church.  Many could not
fathom
> how such a scholar of the Bible, such a good man, could not have been born
> again.  Many actually believed that he had lost his mind and gone insane.
> About half the church stayed with him, but the other half just coul

RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[ShieldsFamily]

Isn't the world and the things of the world also satan's realm of death?
izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Deegan
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 9:05 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

Are you describing TT to a TEE?

One correction "one is living in satan's realm (world and the things of
the world)
--- ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't see any of this nearly as complicated as everyone is making
> it.  A "spiritually dead" person is going to hell when he physically
dies. He already doesn't "get it" about things of the Spirit.  A
"spiritually alive"
> person is heaven-bound.  He understands things of the Spirit. One is
> living in satan's realm (death); the other is living in God's (life:
"My words are  Spirit and Life"). That's the difference. izzy
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 4:42 PM
> To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
> Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
> 
> From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> Hi Bill. I have been reading with interest your dialogue with Judy.
> The
> idea of "spiritual death" has some logical inconsistencies that you
> seem
> to be pointing out. Your focus on death being a metaphor is making me
> think! That's a good thing. :-) Some of the problems I have had over
> my
> lifetime with the "spiritual death" perspective is the following:
> 
> 1. The body without the spirit is dead, so if the spirit is dead, how
> can
> one be alive? This assumes, of course, that spiritual death means
> that
> the spirit is dead.
> Jt: when I say dead David I mean dead in the same sense as blessing
> vs.
> cursing. Someone
> Who is cursed is walking in death while they live. This does not mean
> that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead
> - it
> means that if something does not change they will inherit both in the
> last day.
> 
> 2. If people were spiritually dead in the Old Testament times, how
> did
> they write prophecy and such? How does anyone do anything good at all
> if
> they are dead in their spirit? All good ultimately comes from God,
> does
> it not, and how can this good come through us except through the
> spirit?
> Jt: Is what appears to be good outwardly always good and is what is
> evil
> always look evil ie: if the light within you be darkness (deception)
> how
> great is that darkness.
> 
> 3. John says that Christ is the light that lighteth every man that
> comes
> into the world. How can that happen if virtually everyone is
> "spiritually
> dead"? 
> Jt: It happens because Jesus is the Creator; he is the one who spoke
> the
> worlds into existence; and ultimately He was the one who fulfilled
> Zechariah 12:1b. As for spiritual death in such a circumstance.. What
> does it mean to say that a woman who lives for pleasure is "dead
> while
> she lives?"
> 
> One way of remedy here is to perceive "spiritual death" as something
> that
> is less than perfect death. In other words, there is so much darkness
> that we might call it being spiritually dead, but that does not mean
> complete and total darkness. Of course, if we take this perspective,
> then
> why not take the same approach in regards to physical death with Adam
> and
> Eve? I think it was Ireneus who said that they were given over to
> death
> on that very day. In other words, death began its work, they died
> that
> very day, but it took time for the full effect of it to be
> manifested.
> Jt: They lost their "open-line" to God on that day; they experienced
> fear
> and shame which before this time were unknown to them and not long
> after
> that their son Cain committed the first murder. Wrong spirit produces
> wrong fruit. They had chosen a new spiritual counsellor and it
> proceeded
> from bad to worse until within a few generations God saw the need to
> kill
> everyone but one family.
> 
> Another observation I might make is that I think often people use
> that
> word "spiritually" as a metaphor itself. In other words, when they
> think
> "spiritually dead" they are really thinking along the lines of dead
> metaphorically speaking. 
> Jt: I have a Noah Webster 1828 dictionary here which tells me a
> metaphor
> should be just one word, otherwise it would be a similitude rather
> than a
> metaphor. I don't believe these scriptures are using either myself.
> Why
> not l

RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[ShieldsFamily]

Bill, I think the error here is in thinking
that being born again must include a powerful emotional experience.  If that is
the criteria by which your pastor judges it is not a biblical model. I believe
in simply having the person pray a prayer of repentance for sin, and invite
Jesus to be their Lord and Savior, and asking the Holy Spirit to fill and guide
them.  It is a simple, unemotional event.  It is based on faith, not on
emotion.  If emotions follow, that is wonderful, but certainly not necessary.  I
would have prayed such a prayer with your friend so that he would know for sure
that he had done the right thing. His doubts would disappear, and God would
honor his sweet heart’s intent.  izzy

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:38 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

 

I am glad, David, that you are not immediately jumping to conclusions,

either about this man -- his faith, obedience, etc. -- or as to how we
may

have counseled him through this crisis of faith. Thank you. It
demonstrates

spiritual maturing on your part.

 

This was a man who had confessed many times that Jesus is Lord and had

demonstrated as well as any of us are able to tell that he believed in
his

heart that God had raised Jesus from the dead. The problem was not his
soul

condition, it was with his theological conditioning. Our pastor had
been

drilling us for weeks with the same old "you must be born
again" stuff,

which was more of the same old thing which he had been hearing and teaching

and living out his whole life. The problem was our pasture had grounded
this

teaching not in Jesus Christ but in our existential encounter. If we
had not

had a powerful conversion experience, then we had good reason to
question

our salvation. Well, here was a man who, because of his Christian

"experience," having been raised by godly parents in the
church and believed

the truth of Jesus Christ his entire life, had never had one of those

experiences where you're supposed to feel the ground shake. The truth
was,

he had never not believed. As a good friend of mine says, if he would
have

repented he would have had to stop believing. He had always believed
from as

far back as he could remember. He had just been deceived into thinking
that

his salvation was in jeopardy because he had not had a "powerful
conversion

experience." Of course, our pasture was convinced he was going to
bring this

poor old man to the Lord. And so he pounded him and drilled him and
only

made things worse -- but, thankfully, I was able to visit with him and

ground his belief in Jesus Christ and bring him to a faithful assurance
of

his salvation in Jesus Christ, his Savior.

 

But what a travesty to have done this to that man. You surely do not
have to

agree with me concerning "born again" and when that takes
place, to

understand the dilemma that bad theology had placed us -- him
especially --

in. To jump to conclusions and immediately start seeing red flags going
up,

is only to confirm your own lack of awareness and biblical sensitivity
here.

Thank you for not doing that.

 

Bill

- Original Message -

From: "David Miller"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>

Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:47 AM

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

 

 

> Judy wrote:

> > How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray

> > with this man who was obviously under conviction

> > of the Spirit? ...

> > A born again person who is right with God knows

> > they are born again and right with God.  If they don't

> > know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying

> > out for help.

> 

> For what it's worth, I had kind of the same reaction to reading
this.  I

> hear of long term Christian men growing up in the church but never
having

> had experienced being born again.  I read a pastor's testimony
once who

had

> pastored a very large traditional church.  He suddenly experienced
the new

> birth, and did not know what to do.  He told his congregation from
the

> pulpit that he had been a Christian all his life, earned a
doctorate in

> theology, pastored for many years, but he had never been born
again.  He

> gave his testimony.  It completely split the church.  Many could
not

fathom

> how such a scholar of the Bible, such a good man, could not have
been born

> again.  Many actually believed that he had lost his mind and gone
insane.

> About half the church stayed with him, but the other half just
could not

> understand.

> 

> I don't know this man that Bill mentioned.  Bill did.  That means
Bill has

a

> better foundation from which to speak on this issue, but it does
seem to

me

>

RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[ShieldsFamily]

Obviously your Bible translation left out
Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus.  izzy

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005
10:31 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John
16:13,14



 







Some questions:   Why is it that the
"sinner's prayer" is nowhere to be found in scripture or even hinted
at? Why is it that the phrase "born again
Christian" is nowhere used in the biblical
message and can only be established as we justify several passages of
scripture?  Why is it that no evangelist in biblical lit gives
the command "ye must be born again?"  





 





JD 



 
-Original Message-
From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thu, 21 Jul 2005
12:14:12 -0400
Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14





How terribly
sad  - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who
was obviously under conviction of the Spirit?





You are
judging him by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know
what goes on in the hearts of ppl
- folk can make





a great showing
after the flesh or some may just live in quiet desperation.  I would
have taken this dear man seriously 





enough to go
over the scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of his eternal
destiny rather than give him some





false
assurance.  





 





A born again person
who is right with God knows they are born again and right with God. 
If they don't know this





it is a huge red
flag - and this man was crying out for help.





 





 





Bill writes: 





Yes, in Christ in
his resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt
by the Holy Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What
we call our "conversion experience" does happen in this lifetime, and
sometimes this can be a profound and life-altering experience; other
times it is not so profound for people who have grown up in the church and
spent their lifetimes worshiping the Lord.  I think we are prone to base too much
of our "faith" in religious experience and not trained well enough at
basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus Christ. 





 





I watched a
saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down and weep because he
did not know for sure if he had been "born again." He had grown
up in the church and could not remember a time that he did not believed in
Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those earth-shaking conversion
experiences that others had had. We, the church, had placed so much emphasis on
that "born again experience" that we had misled godly people into
doubting their salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's
shoulders, and he could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as
anyone you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life, yet
believe in "spiritual death" and the necessity to be "born
again" and thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he
stopped being spiritually dead and started being a born again believer. We
did that to him -- not the L ord. 





 





 

RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Kevin Deegan]

Are you describing TT to a TEE?

One correction "one is living in satan's realm (world and the things of
the world)
--- ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't see any of this nearly as complicated as everyone is making
> it.  A "spiritually dead" person is going to hell when he physically
dies. He already doesn't "get it" about things of the Spirit.  A
"spiritually alive"
> person is heaven-bound.  He understands things of the Spirit. One is
> living in satan's realm (death); the other is living in God's (life:
"My words are  Spirit and Life"). That's the difference. izzy
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 4:42 PM
> To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
> Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
> 
> From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> Hi Bill. I have been reading with interest your dialogue with Judy.
> The
> idea of "spiritual death" has some logical inconsistencies that you
> seem
> to be pointing out. Your focus on death being a metaphor is making me
> think! That's a good thing. :-) Some of the problems I have had over
> my
> lifetime with the "spiritual death" perspective is the following:
> 
> 1. The body without the spirit is dead, so if the spirit is dead, how
> can
> one be alive? This assumes, of course, that spiritual death means
> that
> the spirit is dead.
> Jt: when I say dead David I mean dead in the same sense as blessing
> vs.
> cursing. Someone
> Who is cursed is walking in death while they live. This does not mean
> that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead
> - it
> means that if something does not change they will inherit both in the
> last day.
> 
> 2. If people were spiritually dead in the Old Testament times, how
> did
> they write prophecy and such? How does anyone do anything good at all
> if
> they are dead in their spirit? All good ultimately comes from God,
> does
> it not, and how can this good come through us except through the
> spirit?
> Jt: Is what appears to be good outwardly always good and is what is
> evil
> always look evil ie: if the light within you be darkness (deception)
> how
> great is that darkness.
> 
> 3. John says that Christ is the light that lighteth every man that
> comes
> into the world. How can that happen if virtually everyone is
> "spiritually
> dead"? 
> Jt: It happens because Jesus is the Creator; he is the one who spoke
> the
> worlds into existence; and ultimately He was the one who fulfilled
> Zechariah 12:1b. As for spiritual death in such a circumstance.. What
> does it mean to say that a woman who lives for pleasure is "dead
> while
> she lives?"
> 
> One way of remedy here is to perceive "spiritual death" as something
> that
> is less than perfect death. In other words, there is so much darkness
> that we might call it being spiritually dead, but that does not mean
> complete and total darkness. Of course, if we take this perspective,
> then
> why not take the same approach in regards to physical death with Adam
> and
> Eve? I think it was Ireneus who said that they were given over to
> death
> on that very day. In other words, death began its work, they died
> that
> very day, but it took time for the full effect of it to be
> manifested.
> Jt: They lost their "open-line" to God on that day; they experienced
> fear
> and shame which before this time were unknown to them and not long
> after
> that their son Cain committed the first murder. Wrong spirit produces
> wrong fruit. They had chosen a new spiritual counsellor and it
> proceeded
> from bad to worse until within a few generations God saw the need to
> kill
> everyone but one family.
> 
> Another observation I might make is that I think often people use
> that
> word "spiritually" as a metaphor itself. In other words, when they
> think
> "spiritually dead" they are really thinking along the lines of dead
> metaphorically speaking. 
> Jt: I have a Noah Webster 1828 dictionary here which tells me a
> metaphor
> should be just one word, otherwise it would be a similitude rather
> than a
> metaphor. I don't believe these scriptures are using either myself.
> Why
> not let scripture say what it says and ask the Holy Spirit for the
> correct understanding?  Where do you suppose the adversary or the
> Strongman builds his structures? What part of the house?  He is
> spirit
> also.  Why does scripture speak of the sanctification of the spirit? 
> All
> three can be defiled (body, soul/mind, spirit).  Why do some find it
> so
> easy to take the Godhead and divide it into three parts all dancing
> with
> each other and yet insist that triune man has to be one entity - a
> human
> being and that is all.  Will we just throw out what we don't
> understand;
> stay in darkness in these areas and let the devil take the day? 
> judyt
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
> may know
> how you ought to answer every m

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

It is not that we do not or cannot understand.  Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message.   No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him  --  God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the Christ issue.  Philip 2:13  ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a statement of fact for us all  --   saved and unsaved.   If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse!  God in Christ has broken down all the barriers ( read: reconciled all things unto Himself) and has a presence within each of us (different from a filling of the Spirit).  The lost reject this reconciliation and God's "draw" within.  We are probably in agreement  --  but with different words
 
JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]com>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:40:47 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14


I don't see any of this nearly as complicated as everyone is making it.  A
"spiritually dead" person is going to hell when he physically dies.  He
already doesn't "get it" about things of the Spirit.  A "spiritually alive"
person is heaven-bound.  He understands things of the Spirit. One is living
in satan's realm (death); the other is living in God's (life: "My words are
Spirit and Life"). That's the difference. izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 4:42 PM
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Hi Bill. I have been reading with interest your dialogue with Judy. The
idea of "spiritual death" has some logical inconsistencies that you seem
to be pointing out. Your focus on death being a metaphor is making me
think! That's a good thing. :-) Some of the problems I have had over my
lifetime with the "spiritual death" perspective is the following:

1. The body without the spirit is dead, so if the spirit is dead, how can
one be alive? This assumes, of course, that spiritual death means that
the spirit is dead.
Jt: when I say dead David I mean dead in the same sense as blessing vs.
cursing. Someone
Who is cursed is walking in death while they live. This does not mean
that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead - it
means that if something does not change they will inherit both in the
last day.

2. If people were spiritually dead in the Old Testament times, how did
they write prophecy and such? How does anyone do anything good at all if
they are dead in their spirit? All good ultimately comes from God, does
it not, and how can this good come through us except through the spirit?
Jt: Is what appears to be good outwardly always good and is what is evil
always look evil ie: if the light within you be darkness (deception) how
great is that darkness.

3. John says that Christ is the light that lighteth every man that comes
into the world. How can that happen if virtually everyone is "spiritually
dead"? 
Jt: It happens because Jesus is the Creator; he is the one who spoke the
worlds into existence; and ultimately He was the one who fulfilled
Zechariah 12:1b. As for spiritual death in such a circumstance.. What
does it mean to say that a woman who lives for pleasure is "dead while
she lives?"

One way of remedy here is to perceive "spiritual death" as something that
is less than perfect death. In other words, there is so much darkness
that we might call it being spiritually dead, but that does not mean
complete and total darkness. Of course, if we take this perspective, then
why not take the same approach in regards to physical death with Adam and
Eve? I think it was Ireneus who said that they were given over to death
on that very day. In other words, death began its work, they died that
very day, but it took time for the full effect of it to be manifested.
Jt: They lost their "open-line" to God on that day; they experienced fear
and shame which before this time were unknown to them and not long after
that their son Cain committed the first murder. Wrong spirit produces
wrong fruit. They had chosen a new spiritual counsellor and it proceeded
from bad to worse until within a few generations God saw the need to kill
everyone but one family.

Another observation I might make is that I think often people use that
word "spiritually" as a metaphor itself. In other words, when they think
"spiritually dead" they are really thinking along the lines of dead
metaphorically speaking. 
Jt: I have a Noah Webster 1828 dictionary here which tells me a metaphor
should be just one word, otherwise it would be a similitude rather than a
metaphor. I don't believe these scriptures are using either myself. Why
not let scripture say what it says and ask the Holy 

RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[ShieldsFamily]

I don't see any of this nearly as complicated as everyone is making it.  A
"spiritually dead" person is going to hell when he physically dies.  He
already doesn't "get it" about things of the Spirit.  A "spiritually alive"
person is heaven-bound.  He understands things of the Spirit. One is living
in satan's realm (death); the other is living in God's (life: "My words are
Spirit and Life"). That's the difference. izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 4:42 PM
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Hi Bill. I have been reading with interest your dialogue with Judy. The
idea of "spiritual death" has some logical inconsistencies that you seem
to be pointing out. Your focus on death being a metaphor is making me
think! That's a good thing. :-) Some of the problems I have had over my
lifetime with the "spiritual death" perspective is the following:

1. The body without the spirit is dead, so if the spirit is dead, how can
one be alive? This assumes, of course, that spiritual death means that
the spirit is dead.
Jt: when I say dead David I mean dead in the same sense as blessing vs.
cursing. Someone
Who is cursed is walking in death while they live. This does not mean
that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead - it
means that if something does not change they will inherit both in the
last day.

2. If people were spiritually dead in the Old Testament times, how did
they write prophecy and such? How does anyone do anything good at all if
they are dead in their spirit? All good ultimately comes from God, does
it not, and how can this good come through us except through the spirit?
Jt: Is what appears to be good outwardly always good and is what is evil
always look evil ie: if the light within you be darkness (deception) how
great is that darkness.

3. John says that Christ is the light that lighteth every man that comes
into the world. How can that happen if virtually everyone is "spiritually
dead"? 
Jt: It happens because Jesus is the Creator; he is the one who spoke the
worlds into existence; and ultimately He was the one who fulfilled
Zechariah 12:1b. As for spiritual death in such a circumstance.. What
does it mean to say that a woman who lives for pleasure is "dead while
she lives?"

One way of remedy here is to perceive "spiritual death" as something that
is less than perfect death. In other words, there is so much darkness
that we might call it being spiritually dead, but that does not mean
complete and total darkness. Of course, if we take this perspective, then
why not take the same approach in regards to physical death with Adam and
Eve? I think it was Ireneus who said that they were given over to death
on that very day. In other words, death began its work, they died that
very day, but it took time for the full effect of it to be manifested.
Jt: They lost their "open-line" to God on that day; they experienced fear
and shame which before this time were unknown to them and not long after
that their son Cain committed the first murder. Wrong spirit produces
wrong fruit. They had chosen a new spiritual counsellor and it proceeded
from bad to worse until within a few generations God saw the need to kill
everyone but one family.

Another observation I might make is that I think often people use that
word "spiritually" as a metaphor itself. In other words, when they think
"spiritually dead" they are really thinking along the lines of dead
metaphorically speaking. 
Jt: I have a Noah Webster 1828 dictionary here which tells me a metaphor
should be just one word, otherwise it would be a similitude rather than a
metaphor. I don't believe these scriptures are using either myself. Why
not let scripture say what it says and ask the Holy Spirit for the
correct understanding?  Where do you suppose the adversary or the
Strongman builds his structures? What part of the house?  He is spirit
also.  Why does scripture speak of the sanctification of the spirit?  All
three can be defiled (body, soul/mind, spirit).  Why do some find it so
easy to take the Godhead and divide it into three parts all dancing with
each other and yet insist that triune man has to be one entity - a human
being and that is all.  Will we just throw out what we don't understand;
stay in darkness in these areas and let the devil take the day?  judyt
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Lance Muir]

That IS true so, be comforted.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: July 22, 2005 07:27
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 
  16:13,14
  
   
   
  On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:18:21 -0400 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
writes:
  
Jt speaks of 'knowing someone after the spirit' 
(small 's' representing the human spirit I assume?
PS this tripartate body, soul, spirit thingy is 
an errant understanding) 
 
jt: Yes Lance, when your body goes down to 
the dust it is the spirit that returns to God who gave it.
PS Your errant understanding is in the Bible 
and it is not written in code, it is spelled out for those who have eyes to 
see/ears to hear.
 
Jt further suggests that she is speaking of 
something that I 'don't appear to be able to relate to'. 
('appear' being the operative word here so, 
she's not sure that I don't) 
 
jt: I was attempting to be kind Lance - I am 
sure that you dont.
 
IFF YOU HAD THIS ABILITY TO KNOW AFTER THE 
SPIRIT (I'm suggesting that you don't) 
then, you would have perceived Debbie, Caroline 
& Jonathan differently. 
 
jt: Why?  What didn't I perceive about 
them that I should have?
 
(David did so - perhaps HE does have it) Most 
assuredly Bill, John, Gary and Izzie have it. 
 
jt: Since you are unable to relate to it or 
to discern the spiritual personally - how would you know who has it 
Lance?
 
So then, it'd appear that just leaves you and 
I? Wouldn't that be just aweful? (for you I mean, to be linked with me while 

being separated from the others?)
 
jt: Whatever!!  I could comfort myself 
with the idea that you won't be around long couldn't I :)
 

  From: Judy Taylor 
   
  Knowing someone after the spirit is not the same 
  as having tea and coffee for 20yrs with them Lance.
  Paul said "I determined to know nothing amongst 
  you but Jesus Christ and Him crucified" - what die he mean?
  When he judged the man in sin he said he was 
  absent physically but with them in spirit.  You are residing at 
  a
  different place.  I am speaking of something 
  you don't appear to be able to relate to.  judyt
   
  On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:55:10 -0400 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  writes:
  
How interesting that those who did not 
'know' this man would lay claim to 'knowing' this man beter than the man 
who did 'now this man.
 
Like someone said 'you cannot picture in a 
picture how a picture pictures what it pictures.'

  From: Bill 
  Taylor 
   
  
  A born again 
  person who is right with God knows they are born again and right with 
  God.  If they don't know this
  it is a huge red 
  flag - and this man was crying out for 
help.
   
  No, this man was 
  a strong, solid, dedicated believer. His problem was, he had been 
  deceived by people like you. Again, please just leave me and my words, 
  thoughts, posts out of your considerations. I have ask you nicely now 
  three times.
   
  Bill
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Judy Taylor 
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 
10:14 AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] John 
16:13,14

How terribly 
sad  - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who 
was obviously under conviction of the 
Spirit?
You are 
judging him by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know 
what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can 
make
a great 
showing after the flesh or some may just live in quiet 
desperation.  I would have taken this dear man seriously 

enough to go 
over the scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of 
his eternal destiny rather than give him some
false 
assurance.  
 
A born again 
person who is right with God knows they are born again and right 
with God.  If they don't know this
it is a huge 
red flag - and this man was crying out for 
help.
 
 
Bill writes: 

Yes, in Christ 
in his resurrecti

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Judy Taylor]

 
 
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:18:21 -0400 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

  Jt speaks of 'knowing someone after the spirit' 
  (small 's' representing the human spirit I assume?
  PS this tripartate body, soul, spirit thingy is 
  an errant understanding) 
   
  jt: Yes Lance, when your body goes down to the 
  dust it is the spirit that returns to God who gave it.
  PS Your errant understanding is in the Bible 
  and it is not written in code, it is spelled out for those who have eyes to 
  see/ears to hear.
   
  Jt further suggests that she is speaking of 
  something that I 'don't appear to be able to relate to'. 
  ('appear' being the operative word here so, she's 
  not sure that I don't) 
   
  jt: I was attempting to be kind Lance - I am 
  sure that you dont.
   
  IFF YOU HAD THIS ABILITY TO KNOW AFTER THE SPIRIT 
  (I'm suggesting that you don't) 
  then, you would have perceived Debbie, Caroline 
  & Jonathan differently. 
   
  jt: Why?  What didn't I perceive about 
  them that I should have?
   
  (David did so - perhaps HE does have it) Most 
  assuredly Bill, John, Gary and Izzie have it. 
   
  jt: Since you are unable to relate to it or to 
  discern the spiritual personally - how would you know who has it 
  Lance?
   
  So then, it'd appear that just leaves you and I? 
  Wouldn't that be just aweful? (for you I mean, to be linked with me while 
  
  being separated from the others?)
   
  jt: Whatever!!  I could comfort myself 
  with the idea that you won't be around long couldn't I :)
   
  
From: Judy Taylor 
 
Knowing someone after the spirit is not the same as 
having tea and coffee for 20yrs with them Lance.
Paul said "I determined to know nothing amongst you 
but Jesus Christ and Him crucified" - what die he mean?
When he judged the man in sin he said he was absent 
physically but with them in spirit.  You are residing at a
different place.  I am speaking of something 
you don't appear to be able to relate to.  judyt
 
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:55:10 -0400 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
writes:

  How interesting that those who did not 'know' 
  this man would lay claim to 'knowing' this man beter than the man who did 
  'now this man.
   
  Like someone said 'you cannot picture in a 
  picture how a picture pictures what it pictures.'
  
From: Bill Taylor 
 

A born again 
person who is right with God knows they are born again and right with 
God.  If they don't know this
it is a huge red 
flag - and this man was crying out for help.
 
No, this man was a 
strong, solid, dedicated believer. His problem was, he had been deceived 
by people like you. Again, please just leave me and my words, thoughts, 
posts out of your considerations. I have ask you nicely now three 
times.
 
Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy Taylor 
  To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 
  10:14 AM
  Subject: [TruthTalk] John 
  16:13,14
  
  How terribly 
  sad  - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who 
  was obviously under conviction of the Spirit?
  You are 
  judging him by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know 
  what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make
  a great showing 
  after the flesh or some may just live in quiet desperation.  
  I would have taken this dear man seriously 
  enough to go 
  over the scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of 
  his eternal destiny rather than give him some
  false 
  assurance.  
   
  A born again 
  person who is right with God knows they are born again and right with 
  God.  If they don't know this
  it is a huge red 
  flag - and this man was crying out for 
help.
   
   
  Bill writes: 
  
  Yes, in Christ 
  in his resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy 
  Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we 
  call our "conversion experience" does happen in this lifetime, and 
  sometimes this can be a profound and life-altering 
  experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have 
  grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the 
  Lord.  I think we are 
  prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious experience and not 
  trained well enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus 
  Christ. 
   
  I watched a 
  saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down and weep 
  b

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Lance Muir]

Jt speaks of 'knowing someone after the spirit' 
(small 's' representing the human spirit I assume?PS this tripartate body, soul, 
spirit thingy is an errant understanding) Jt further suggests that she is 
speaking of something that I 'don't appear to be able to relate to'. ('appear' 
being the operative word here so, she's not sure that I don't) IFF YOU HAD THIS 
ABILITY TO KNOW AFTER THE SPIRIT (I'm suggesting that you don't) then, you would 
have perceived Debbie, Caroline & Jonathan differently. (David did so - 
perhaps HE does have it) Most assuredly Bill, John, Gary and Izzie have it. 
So then, it'd appear that just leaves you and I? Wouldn't that be just aweful? 
(for you I mean, to be linked with me while being separated from the 
others?)
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: July 22, 2005 06:56
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 
  16:13,14
  
  Knowing someone after the spirit is not the same as 
  having tea and coffee for 20yrs with them Lance.
  Paul said "I determined to know nothing amongst you 
  but Jesus Christ and Him crucified" - what die he mean?
  When he judged the man in sin he said he was absent 
  physically but with them in spirit.  You are residing at a
  different place.  I am speaking of something you 
  don't appear to be able to relate to.  judyt
   
  On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:55:10 -0400 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
writes:
  
How interesting that those who did not 'know' 
this man would lay claim to 'knowing' this man beter than the man who did 
'now this man.
 
Like someone said 'you cannot picture in a 
picture how a picture pictures what it pictures.'

  From: Bill Taylor 
   
  
  A born again person 
  who is 
  right with God knows they are born again and right with God.  If they 
  don't know this
  it is a huge red 
  flag - and this man was crying out for help.
   
  No, this man was a 
  strong, solid, dedicated believer. His problem was, he had been deceived 
  by people like you. Again, please just leave me and my words, thoughts, 
  posts out of your considerations. I have ask you nicely now three 
  times.
   
  Bill
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Judy 
Taylor 
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:14 
AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] John 
16:13,14

How terribly 
sad  - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who 
was obviously under conviction of the Spirit?
You are 
judging him by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know 
what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make
a great showing 
after the flesh or some may just live in quiet desperation.  I 
would have taken this dear man seriously 
enough to go 
over the scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of his 
eternal destiny rather than give him some
false 
assurance.  
 
A born again 
person who is right with God knows they are born again and right with 
God.  If they don't know this
it is a huge red 
flag - and this man was crying out for help.
 
 
Bill writes: 

Yes, in Christ in 
his resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, 
that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we call our 
"conversion experience" does happen in this lifetime, and sometimes this 
can be a profound and life-altering experience; other times it 
is not so profound for people who have grown up in the church and spent 
their lifetimes worshiping the Lord.  I think we are 
prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious experience and not 
trained well enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus 
Christ. 
 
I watched a 
saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down and weep 
because he did not know for sure if he had been "born again." He 
had grown up in the church and could not remember a time that he 
did not believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those 
earth-shaking conversion experiences that others had had. We, the 
church, had placed so much emphasis on that "born again experience" that 
we had misled godly people into doubting their salvation. The weight of 
the world was upon this man's shoulders, and he could not withstand the 
weight of

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Judy Taylor]

Knowing someone after the spirit is not the same as 
having tea and coffee for 20yrs with them Lance.
Paul said "I determined to know nothing amongst you but 
Jesus Christ and Him crucified" - what die he mean?
When he judged the man in sin he said he was absent 
physically but with them in spirit.  You are residing at a
different place.  I am speaking of something you 
don't appear to be able to relate to.  judyt
 
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:55:10 -0400 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

  How interesting that those who did not 'know' 
  this man would lay claim to 'knowing' this man beter than the man who did 'now 
  this man.
   
  Like someone said 'you cannot picture in a 
  picture how a picture pictures what it pictures.'
  
From: Bill Taylor 
 

A born again person 
who is 
right with God knows they are born again and right with God.  If they 
don't know this
it is a huge red flag 
- and this 
man was crying out for help.
 
No, this man was a 
strong, solid, dedicated believer. His problem was, he had been deceived by 
people like you. Again, please just leave me and my words, thoughts, posts 
out of your considerations. I have ask you nicely now three 
times.
 
Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:14 
  AM
  Subject: [TruthTalk] John 
  16:13,14
  
  How terribly 
  sad  - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who 
  was obviously under conviction of the Spirit?
  You are 
  judging him by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know what 
  goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make
  a great showing 
  after the flesh or some may just live in quiet desperation.  I 
  would have taken this dear man seriously 
  enough to go 
  over the scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of his 
  eternal destiny rather than give him some
  false 
  assurance.  
   
  A born again person 
  who is 
  right with God knows they are born again and right with God.  If they 
  don't know this
  it is a huge red 
  flag - and this man was crying out for help.
   
   
  Bill writes: 
  
  Yes, in Christ in 
  his resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, 
  that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we call our 
  "conversion experience" does happen in this lifetime, and sometimes this 
  can be a profound and life-altering experience; other times it 
  is not so profound for people who have grown up in the church and spent 
  their lifetimes worshiping the Lord.  I think we are 
  prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious experience and not 
  trained well enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus 
  Christ. 
   
  I watched a 
  saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down and weep 
  because he did not know for sure if he had been "born again." He had 
  grown up in the church and could not remember a time that he did not 
  believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those earth-shaking 
  conversion experiences that others had had. We, the church, had placed so 
  much emphasis on that "born again experience" that we had misled godly 
  people into doubting their salvation. The weight of the world was upon 
  this man's shoulders, and he could not withstand the weight of it. He was 
  as godly as anyone you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his 
  whole life, yet believe in "spiritual death" and the necessity to be "born 
  again" and thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he 
  stopped being spiritually dead and started being a born again 
  believer. We did that to him -- not 
  the Lord. 
   
   
   

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Lance Muir]

A large foghorn sounds indicating that once again David has 'misinterpreted' 
thus one more time demonstrating that while one may exhibit lucidity; 
withing that lucidity one may be (in)credible..
- Original Message - 
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: July 21, 2005 12:47
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14



Judy wrote:

How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray
with this man who was obviously under conviction
of the Spirit? ...
A born again person who is right with God knows
they are born again and right with God.  If they don't
know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying
out for help.


For what it's worth, I had kind of the same reaction to reading this.  I
hear of long term Christian men growing up in the church but never having
had experienced being born again.  I read a pastor's testimony once who 
had

pastored a very large traditional church.  He suddenly experienced the new
birth, and did not know what to do.  He told his congregation from the
pulpit that he had been a Christian all his life, earned a doctorate in
theology, pastored for many years, but he had never been born again.  He
gave his testimony.  It completely split the church.  Many could not 
fathom

how such a scholar of the Bible, such a good man, could not have been born
again.  Many actually believed that he had lost his mind and gone insane.
About half the church stayed with him, but the other half just could not
understand.

I don't know this man that Bill mentioned.  Bill did.  That means Bill has 
a
better foundation from which to speak on this issue, but it does seem to 
me

that the Lord was dealing with him.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org


If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.





--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Lance Muir]

How interesting that those who did not 'know' this 
man would lay claim to 'knowing' this man beter than the man who did 'now this 
man.
 
Like someone said 'you cannot picture in a picture 
how a picture pictures what it pictures.'

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Bill Taylor 
  
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: July 21, 2005 12:24
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 
  16:13,14
  
   
  
  A born again person 
  who is 
  right with God knows they are born again and right with God.  If they 
  don't know this
  it is a huge red flag - 
  and this man 
  was crying out for help.
   
  No, this man was a 
  strong, solid, dedicated believer. His problem was, he had been deceived by 
  people like you. Again, please just leave me and my words, thoughts, posts out 
  of your considerations. I have ask you nicely now three 
  times.
   
  Bill
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Judy 
Taylor 
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:14 
AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] John 
16:13,14

How terribly sad  
- did somebody counsel and pray with this man who was obviously 
under conviction of the Spirit?
You are 
judging him by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know what 
goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make
a great showing after 
the flesh or some may just live in quiet desperation.  I would 
have taken this dear man seriously 
enough to go 
over the 
scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of his eternal destiny rather 
than give him some
false assurance.  

 
A born again person 
who is 
right with God knows they are born again and right with God.  If they 
don't know this
it is a huge red flag 
- and this 
man was crying out for help.
 
 
Bill writes: 

Yes, in Christ in his 
resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, that 
comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we call our 
"conversion experience" does happen in this lifetime, and sometimes this can 
be a profound and life-altering experience; other times it is not 
so profound for people who have grown up in the church and spent their 
lifetimes worshiping the Lord.  I think we are prone 
to base too much of our "faith" in religious experience and not trained well 
enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus Christ. 

 
I watched a 
saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down and weep because 
he did not know for sure if he had been "born again." He had grown up 
in the church and could not remember a time that he did not believed in 
Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those earth-shaking conversion 
experiences that others had had. We, the church, had placed so much emphasis 
on that "born again experience" that we had misled godly people into 
doubting their salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's 
shoulders, and he could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as 
anyone you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life, 
yet believe in "spiritual death" and the necessity to be "born again" and 
thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he stopped being 
spiritually dead and started being a born again believer. We did that 
to him -- not the Lord. 
 
 

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

Hey, Bill  !!!   apparently we are all pretty good at playing chess.
 
Jd  -Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan <openairmission@yahoo.com>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:41:15 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14


Why?

So that folks like you can fall, trip and stumble at the Word!
1 PT 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them
which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were
appointed.

1 Pt Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Some questions:   Why is it that the "sinner's prayer" is nowhere to
> be found in scripture or even hinted at? Why is it that the
> phrase "born again Christian" is nowhere used in the biblical message
> and can only be established as we justify several passages of
> scripture?  Why is it that no evangelist in biblical lit gives the
> command "ye must be born again?"  
>  
> JD 
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>
> To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
> Sent: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:14:12 -0400
> Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
> 
> 
> How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who
> was obviously under conviction of the Spirit?
> You are judging him by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know
> what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make
> a great showing after the flesh or some may just live in quiet
> desperation.  I would have taken this dear man seriously 
> enough to go over the scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure
> of his eternal destiny rather than give him some
> false assurance.  
>  
> A born again person who is right with God knows they are born again
> and right with God.  If they don't know this
> it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help.
>  
>  
> Bill writes: 
> Yes, in Christ in his resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt by
> the Holy Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus
> Christ. What we call our "conversion experience" does happen in this
> lifetime, and sometimes this can be a profound and life-altering
> experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have
> grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the Lord.
>  I think we are prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious
> experience and not trained well enough at basing it in the object of
> that faith: Jesus Christ. 
>  
> I watched a saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down
> and weep because he did not know for sure if he had been "born
> again." He had grown up in the church and could not remember a time
> that he did not believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of
> those earth-shaking conversion experiences that others had had. We,
> the church, had placed so much emphasis on that "born again
> experience" that we had misled godly people into doubting their
> salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's shoulders, and
> he could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as anyone
> you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life,
> yet believe in "spiritual death" and the necessity to be "born again"
> and thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he
> stopped being spiritually dead and started being a born again
> believer. We did that to him -- not the Lord. 
>  
>  
> 


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how 
you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend 
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and 
he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

God is a member of the G O P ???
 
Jd  -Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:35:45 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14


Same crowd that says ONLY Gop knows who are His & who are not, change
tunes like I change socks!

--- Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> A born again person who is right with God knows they are born again
> and right with God.  If they don't know this
> it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help.
> 
> No, this man was a strong, solid, dedicated believer. His problem
> was, he had been deceived by people like you. Again, please just
> leave me and my words, thoughts, posts out of your considerations. I
> have ask you nicely now three times.
> 
> Bill
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Judy Taylor 
>   To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org 
>   Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:14 AM
>   Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
> 
> 
>   How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who
> was obviously under conviction of the Spirit?
>   You are judging him by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know
> what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make
>   a great showing after the flesh or some may just live in quiet
> desperation.  I would have taken this dear man seriously 
>   enough to go over the scriptures and pray with him so he can be
> sure of his eternal destiny rather than give him some
>   false assurance.  
> 
>   A born again person who is right with God knows they are born again
> and right with God.  If they don't know this
>   it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help.
> 
> 
>   Bill writes: 
>   Yes, in Christ in his resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt by
> the Holy Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus
> Christ. What we call our "conversion experience" does happen in this
> lifetime, and sometimes this can be a profound and life-altering
> experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have
> grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the Lord.
>  I think we are prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious
> experience and not trained well enough at basing it in the object of
> that faith: Jesus Christ. 
> 
>   I watched a saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down
> and weep because he did not know for sure if he had been "born
> again." He had grown up in the church and could not remember a time
> that he did not believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of
> those earth-shaking conversion experiences that others had had. We,
> the church, had placed so much emphasis on that "born again
> experience" that we had misled godly people into doubting their
> salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's shoulders, and
> he could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as anyone
> you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life,
> yet believe in "spiritual death" and the necessity to be "born again"
> and thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he
> stopped being spiritually dead and started being a born again
> believer. We did that to him -- not the Lord. 
> 
> 


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how 
you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend 
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and 
he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Kevin Deegan]

Sounds like he was under conviction.
How many times have well meaning people interjected themselves into
this kind of situation and thereby told a LOST man, You're OK Jesus
Loves you, You believe in Jesus don't you?

1 JN 5 These things have I written that YOU MIGHT KNOW that you HAVE
ETERNAL LIFE

Something inside that man was bearing witness of his LOST condition.


--- David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Judy wrote:
> > How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray
> > with this man who was obviously under conviction
> > of the Spirit? ...
> > A born again person who is right with God knows
> > they are born again and right with God.  If they don't
> > know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying
> > out for help.
> 
> For what it's worth, I had kind of the same reaction to reading this.
>  I 
> hear of long term Christian men growing up in the church but never
> having 
> had experienced being born again.  I read a pastor's testimony once
> who had 
> pastored a very large traditional church.  He suddenly experienced
> the new 
> birth, and did not know what to do.  He told his congregation from
> the 
> pulpit that he had been a Christian all his life, earned a doctorate
> in 
> theology, pastored for many years, but he had never been born again. 
> He 
> gave his testimony.  It completely split the church.  Many could not
> fathom 
> how such a scholar of the Bible, such a good man, could not have been
> born 
> again.  Many actually believed that he had lost his mind and gone
> insane. 
> About half the church stayed with him, but the other half just could
> not 
> understand.
> 
> I don't know this man that Bill mentioned.  Bill did.  That means
> Bill has a 
> better foundation from which to speak on this issue, but it does seem
> to me 
> that the Lord was dealing with him.
> 
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller. 
> 
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
> may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
> 
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you
> have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
> 


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Bill Taylor]

I am glad, David, that you are not immediately jumping to conclusions,
either about this man -- his faith, obedience, etc. -- or as to how we may
have counseled him through this crisis of faith. Thank you. It demonstrates
spiritual maturing on your part.

This was a man who had confessed many times that Jesus is Lord and had
demonstrated as well as any of us are able to tell that he believed in his
heart that God had raised Jesus from the dead. The problem was not his soul
condition, it was with his theological conditioning. Our pastor had been
drilling us for weeks with the same old "you must be born again" stuff,
which was more of the same old thing which he had been hearing and teaching
and living out his whole life. The problem was our pasture had grounded this
teaching not in Jesus Christ but in our existential encounter. If we had not
had a powerful conversion experience, then we had good reason to question
our salvation. Well, here was a man who, because of his Christian
"experience," having been raised by godly parents in the church and believed
the truth of Jesus Christ his entire life, had never had one of those
experiences where you're supposed to feel the ground shake. The truth was,
he had never not believed. As a good friend of mine says, if he would have
repented he would have had to stop believing. He had always believed from as
far back as he could remember. He had just been deceived into thinking that
his salvation was in jeopardy because he had not had a "powerful conversion
experience." Of course, our pasture was convinced he was going to bring this
poor old man to the Lord. And so he pounded him and drilled him and only
made things worse -- but, thankfully, I was able to visit with him and
ground his belief in Jesus Christ and bring him to a faithful assurance of
his salvation in Jesus Christ, his Savior.

But what a travesty to have done this to that man. You surely do not have to
agree with me concerning "born again" and when that takes place, to
understand the dilemma that bad theology had placed us -- him especially --
in. To jump to conclusions and immediately start seeing red flags going up,
is only to confirm your own lack of awareness and biblical sensitivity here.
Thank you for not doing that.

Bill
- Original Message -
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14


> Judy wrote:
> > How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray
> > with this man who was obviously under conviction
> > of the Spirit? ...
> > A born again person who is right with God knows
> > they are born again and right with God.  If they don't
> > know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying
> > out for help.
>
> For what it's worth, I had kind of the same reaction to reading this.  I
> hear of long term Christian men growing up in the church but never having
> had experienced being born again.  I read a pastor's testimony once who
had
> pastored a very large traditional church.  He suddenly experienced the new
> birth, and did not know what to do.  He told his congregation from the
> pulpit that he had been a Christian all his life, earned a doctorate in
> theology, pastored for many years, but he had never been born again.  He
> gave his testimony.  It completely split the church.  Many could not
fathom
> how such a scholar of the Bible, such a good man, could not have been born
> again.  Many actually believed that he had lost his mind and gone insane.
> About half the church stayed with him, but the other half just could not
> understand.
>
> I don't know this man that Bill mentioned.  Bill did.  That means Bill has
a
> better foundation from which to speak on this issue, but it does seem to
me
> that the Lord was dealing with him.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller.
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Kevin Deegan]

Why?

So that folks like you can fall, trip and stumble at the Word!
1 PT 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them
which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were
appointed.

1 Pt Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Some questions:   Why is it that the "sinner's prayer" is nowhere to
> be found in scripture or even hinted at? Why is it that the
> phrase "born again Christian" is nowhere used in the biblical message
> and can only be established as we justify several passages of
> scripture?  Why is it that no evangelist in biblical lit gives the
> command "ye must be born again?"  
>  
> JD 
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
> Sent: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:14:12 -0400
> Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
> 
> 
> How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who
> was obviously under conviction of the Spirit?
> You are judging him by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know
> what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make
> a great showing after the flesh or some may just live in quiet
> desperation.  I would have taken this dear man seriously 
> enough to go over the scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure
> of his eternal destiny rather than give him some
> false assurance.  
>  
> A born again person who is right with God knows they are born again
> and right with God.  If they don't know this
> it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help.
>  
>  
> Bill writes: 
> Yes, in Christ in his resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt by
> the Holy Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus
> Christ. What we call our "conversion experience" does happen in this
> lifetime, and sometimes this can be a profound and life-altering
> experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have
> grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the Lord.
>  I think we are prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious
> experience and not trained well enough at basing it in the object of
> that faith: Jesus Christ. 
>  
> I watched a saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down
> and weep because he did not know for sure if he had been "born
> again." He had grown up in the church and could not remember a time
> that he did not believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of
> those earth-shaking conversion experiences that others had had. We,
> the church, had placed so much emphasis on that "born again
> experience" that we had misled godly people into doubting their
> salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's shoulders, and
> he could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as anyone
> you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life,
> yet believe in "spiritual death" and the necessity to be "born again"
> and thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he
> stopped being spiritually dead and started being a born again
> believer. We did that to him -- not the Lord. 
>  
>  
> 


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Kevin Deegan]

Same crowd that says ONLY Gop knows who are His & who are not, change
tunes like I change socks!

--- Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> A born again person who is right with God knows they are born again
> and right with God.  If they don't know this
> it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help.
> 
> No, this man was a strong, solid, dedicated believer. His problem
> was, he had been deceived by people like you. Again, please just
> leave me and my words, thoughts, posts out of your considerations. I
> have ask you nicely now three times.
> 
> Bill
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Judy Taylor 
>   To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org 
>   Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:14 AM
>   Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
> 
> 
>   How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who
> was obviously under conviction of the Spirit?
>   You are judging him by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know
> what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make
>   a great showing after the flesh or some may just live in quiet
> desperation.  I would have taken this dear man seriously 
>   enough to go over the scriptures and pray with him so he can be
> sure of his eternal destiny rather than give him some
>   false assurance.  
> 
>   A born again person who is right with God knows they are born again
> and right with God.  If they don't know this
>   it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help.
> 
> 
>   Bill writes: 
>   Yes, in Christ in his resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt by
> the Holy Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus
> Christ. What we call our "conversion experience" does happen in this
> lifetime, and sometimes this can be a profound and life-altering
> experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have
> grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the Lord.
>  I think we are prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious
> experience and not trained well enough at basing it in the object of
> that faith: Jesus Christ. 
> 
>   I watched a saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down
> and weep because he did not know for sure if he had been "born
> again." He had grown up in the church and could not remember a time
> that he did not believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of
> those earth-shaking conversion experiences that others had had. We,
> the church, had placed so much emphasis on that "born again
> experience" that we had misled godly people into doubting their
> salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's shoulders, and
> he could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as anyone
> you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life,
> yet believe in "spiritual death" and the necessity to be "born again"
> and thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he
> stopped being spiritually dead and started being a born again
> believer. We did that to him -- not the Lord. 
> 
> 


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Judy Taylor]

I'm not locked into a formula such as the "sinner's 
prayer" or the "Roman's road" but we should be able to counsel
a weeping soul who is unsure - that is "give account 
for the hope that is within us" and pray with them ie "comfort
them with the comfort wherewith we have been 
comforted".  I know a lady whose testimony is that she was told 
from
the time she was a small girl that she was saved and 
not to doubt her salvation even when she would go fwd to the
altar because of inward doubts.  She taught Sunday 
School and was 33yrs old and having an affair with a married
man before she was jerked to reality.  So for 
years and years well meaning religious ppl had helped to keep her 
in bondage to sin.
 
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:31:01 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  Some questions:   Why is it that the "sinner's prayer" is 
  nowhere to be found in scripture or even hinted at? 
  Why is it that the phrase "born again Christian" is nowhere used in the biblical message and can only be established as 
  we justify several passages of scripture?  Why is it that no 
  evangelist in biblical lit gives the command "ye must be born 
  again?"  JD From: 
  Judy Taylor 
  

  
  How terribly sad  - 
  did somebody counsel and pray with this man who was obviously under 
  conviction of the Spirit?
  You are judging him 
  by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know what goes on in the hearts 
  of ppl - folk can make
  a great showing after 
  the flesh or some may just live in quiet desperation.  I would have 
  taken this dear man seriously 
  enough to go 
  over the 
  scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of his eternal destiny rather 
  than give him some
  false assurance.  
  
   
  A born again person 
  who is 
  right with God knows they are born again and right with God.  If they 
  don't know this
  it is a huge red flag - 
  and this man 
  was crying out for help.
   
   
  Bill writes: 
  
  Yes, in Christ in his 
  resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith 
  in Jesus Christ. What we call our "conversion experience" does happen in this 
  lifetime, and sometimes this can be a profound and life-altering 
  experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have grown up in 
  the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the Lord.  
  I think we are prone 
  to base too much of our "faith" in religious experience and not trained well 
  enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus Christ. 
  
   
  I watched a 
  saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down and weep because 
  he did not know for sure if he had been "born again." He had grown up in 
  the church and could not remember a time that he did not believed in 
  Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those earth-shaking conversion 
  experiences that others had had. We, the church, had placed so much emphasis 
  on that "born again experience" that we had misled godly people into doubting 
  their salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's shoulders, and he 
  could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as anyone you would ever 
  meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life, yet believe in "spiritual 
  death" and the necessity to be "born again" and thus could not place his 
  finger on a point in his life when he stopped being spiritually dead and 
  started being a born again believer. We did that to him -- not the L 
  ord. 
   
   
   

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[David Miller]

Judy wrote:
> How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray
> with this man who was obviously under conviction
> of the Spirit? ...
> A born again person who is right with God knows
> they are born again and right with God.  If they don't
> know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying
> out for help.

For what it's worth, I had kind of the same reaction to reading this.  I 
hear of long term Christian men growing up in the church but never having 
had experienced being born again.  I read a pastor's testimony once who had 
pastored a very large traditional church.  He suddenly experienced the new 
birth, and did not know what to do.  He told his congregation from the 
pulpit that he had been a Christian all his life, earned a doctorate in 
theology, pastored for many years, but he had never been born again.  He 
gave his testimony.  It completely split the church.  Many could not fathom 
how such a scholar of the Bible, such a good man, could not have been born 
again.  Many actually believed that he had lost his mind and gone insane. 
About half the church stayed with him, but the other half just could not 
understand.

I don't know this man that Bill mentioned.  Bill did.  That means Bill has a 
better foundation from which to speak on this issue, but it does seem to me 
that the Lord was dealing with him.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[knpraise]

Some questions:   Why is it that the "sinner's prayer" is nowhere to be found in scripture or even hinted at? Why is it that the phrase "born again Christian" is nowhere used in the biblical message and can only be established as we justify several passages of scripture?  Why is it that no evangelist in biblical lit gives the command "ye must be born again?"  
 
JD  -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:14:12 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14



How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who was obviously under conviction of the Spirit?
You are judging him by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make
a great showing after the flesh or some may just live in quiet desperation.  I would have taken this dear man seriously 
enough to go over the scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of his eternal destiny rather than give him some
false assurance.  
 
A born again person who is right with God knows they are born again and right with God.  If they don't know this
it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help.
 
 
Bill writes: 
Yes, in Christ in his resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we call our "conversion experience" does happen in this lifetime, and sometimes this can be a profound and life-altering experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the Lord.  I think we are prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious experience and not trained well enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus Christ. 
 
I watched a saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down and weep because he did not know for sure if he had been "born again." He had grown up in the church and could not remember a time that he did not believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those earth-shaking conversion experiences that others had had. We, the church, had placed so much emphasis on that "born again experience" that we had misled godly people into doubting their salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's shoulders, and he could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as anyone you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life, yet believe in "spiritual death" and the necessity to be "born again" and thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he stopped being spiritually dead and started being a born again believer. We did that to him -- not the L
ord. 
 
 

Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[Bill Taylor]

 

A born again person 
who is right 
with God knows they are born again and right with God.  If they don't know 
this
it is a huge red flag - 
and this man was 
crying out for help.
 
No, this man was a strong, 
solid, dedicated believer. His problem was, he had been deceived by people like 
you. Again, please just leave me and my words, thoughts, posts out of your 
considerations. I have ask you nicely now three times.
 
Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:14 
  AM
  Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
  
  How terribly sad  - 
  did somebody counsel and pray with this man who was obviously under 
  conviction of the Spirit?
  You are judging him 
  by "outward appearances" Bill.  You can't know what goes on in the hearts 
  of ppl - folk can make
  a great showing after 
  the flesh or some may just live in quiet desperation.  I would have 
  taken this dear man seriously 
  enough to go 
  over the 
  scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of his eternal destiny rather 
  than give him some
  false assurance.  
  
   
  A born again person 
  who is 
  right with God knows they are born again and right with God.  If they 
  don't know this
  it is a huge red flag - 
  and this man 
  was crying out for help.
   
   
  Bill writes: 
  
  Yes, in Christ in his 
  resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, that comes 
  by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we call our "conversion 
  experience" does happen in this lifetime, and sometimes this can 
  be a profound and life-altering experience; other times it is not so 
  profound for people who have grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes 
  worshiping the Lord.  I think we are prone to base too much of our 
  "faith" in religious experience and not trained well enough at basing it in 
  the object of that faith: Jesus Christ. 
   
  I watched a 
  saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down and weep because 
  he did not know for sure if he had been "born again." He had grown up in 
  the church and could not remember a time that he did not believed in 
  Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those earth-shaking conversion 
  experiences that others had had. We, the church, had placed so much emphasis 
  on that "born again experience" that we had misled godly people into doubting 
  their salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's shoulders, and he 
  could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as anyone you would ever 
  meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life, yet believe in "spiritual 
  death" and the necessity to be "born again" and thus could not place his 
  finger on a point in his life when he stopped being spiritually dead and 
  started being a born again believer. We did that to him -- not 
  the Lord.