Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
'Say not'? - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 22:29 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? The problem with Debbie's analysis is that this street preacher does not herald a call from immoral living to moral living without Christ. Rather, the call is to turn from immoral living to a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's another one of those straw man divisions which does not really exist. Nevertheless, the Elijah spirit is one which prepares the way of the Lord, and one to which we ought not object. If you happen to have stumbled on a street preacher in the spirit of Elijah, you ought not object just because your theology tells you he is majoring on the minors. John the Baptist prepared people to believe upon Jesus by preaching the following: Luke 3:7-14 (7) Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. (9) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (10) And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? (11) He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. (12) Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? (13) And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. (14) And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. In modern times, the call goes out, say not that you are Catholic, say not you have a pope, say not you are Baptist, or Methodist, or Lutheran, or Presbyterian. God is able to raise up children from this sidewalk. Judgment is coming and every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. Turn away from your sins and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ in deed and in truth. He that says he believes in him will keep his commandments. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Couldn't have said it better myself! In fact, what upsets me is that I couldn't have even said it }:( Oh well, that's not going to stop me from agreeing with it :) Well said, Debbie. Bill - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 12:20 PM Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 14, 2006 14:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Of course it is sin and needs repenting of. (JD is actually making the same vocabulary mistake below as DM.) But it is not immorality; in fact, it is morality. Where this whole discussion of repentance began was with a critique of street preachers' focus on repentance as a call to turn from immoral living to moral living. As pointed out long ago by Bill and/or JD, the repentance urged on people in much biblical preaching was not a call to moral living, but a call to recognize God. Insofar as it was a call to moral living, it was to people who were already the people of God, and was a call to recognize God as covenant partner. Peter's sermon fits right into that and moves beyond it; the covenant is gathered up in Christ who turns out to be both its maker and keeper, and that is why repentance is sealed by being baptized into him. D From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 1:45 PM To: Debbie Sawczak Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 12:54 Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Well it is something that needs to be repented of JD; if it is not sin, then why the need to repent? Dead works is something lifeless as opposed to works of righteousness which are the fruit of walking after the spirit. One is dead religion - the other is life and peace. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:17:39 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes -- and who said that repentance from dead works is speaking of sin, anyway? Dead works is that body of works that convinces someone that she is accpted by God RATHER THAN PLACING HER FAITH IN THE CHRIST and allowing Him and Him alone to be glorified in this [saving] function. Bill's comment is brilliant, I think, and as it is attached to Acts 2 -- the best possible understanding
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
[Original Message] From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 1/15/2006 10:29:21 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? The problem with Debbie's analysis is that this street preacher does not herald a call from immoral living to moral living without Christ. Rather, the call is to turn from immoral living to a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's another one of those straw man divisions which does not really exist. Nevertheless, the Elijah spirit is one which prepares the way of the Lord, and one to which we ought not object. If you happen to have stumbled on a street preacher in the spirit of Elijah, you ought not object just because your theology tells you he is majoring on the minors. John the Baptist prepared people to believe upon Jesus by preaching the following: Luke 3:7-14 (7) Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. (9) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (10) And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? (11) He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. (12) Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? (13) And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. (14) And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. In modern times, the call goes out, say not that you are Catholic, say not you have a pope, say not you are Baptist, or Methodist, or Lutheran, or Presbyterian. God is able to raise up children from this sidewalk. Judgment is coming and every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. Turn away from your sins and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ in deed and in truth. He that says he believes in him will keep his commandments. David Miller. cd: Amen and Amen. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
THE CALL? From unbelief to belief? From immorality to morality (already addressed). From morality? The latter is certainly no 'straw man'. It may be that some on TT need to be called from this. I sometimes see DM with one foot in this camp. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 16, 2006 08:02 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? [Original Message] From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 1/15/2006 10:29:21 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? The problem with Debbie's analysis is that this street preacher does not herald a call from immoral living to moral living without Christ. Rather, the call is to turn from immoral living to a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's another one of those straw man divisions which does not really exist. Nevertheless, the Elijah spirit is one which prepares the way of the Lord, and one to which we ought not object. If you happen to have stumbled on a street preacher in the spirit of Elijah, you ought not object just because your theology tells you he is majoring on the minors. John the Baptist prepared people to believe upon Jesus by preaching the following: Luke 3:7-14 (7) Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. (9) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (10) And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? (11) He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. (12) Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? (13) And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. (14) And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. In modern times, the call goes out, say not that you are Catholic, say not you have a pope, say not you are Baptist, or Methodist, or Lutheran, or Presbyterian. God is able to raise up children from this sidewalk. Judgment is coming and every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. Turn away from your sins and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ in deed and in truth. He that says he believes in him will keep his commandments. David Miller. cd: Amen and Amen. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Couldn't have said it better myself! In fact, what upsets me
is that I couldn't have even said it }:(
Oh well, that's not going to stop me from agreeing with it
:)
Well said, Debbie.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 12:20
PM
Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the
gospel?
- Original Message -
From: Debbie Sawczak
To: 'Lance Muir'
Sent: January 14, 2006 14:18
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Of course it is sin and needs repenting of. (JD is
actually making the same vocabulary mistake below as DM.) But it is not
immorality; in fact, it is morality.Where this wholediscussion of
repentance began was with a critique ofstreet preachers' focus on
repentance as a call to turn from immoral living to moral living.As
pointed out long ago by Bill and/or JD, the repentance urged on people in much
biblical preaching was not a call to moral living, but a call to recognize
God. Insofar as it was a call to moral living,it was to people who were
already the people of God, and was a call to recognize God as covenant
partner.Peter's sermon fits right into that and moves beyond
it;the covenant is gathered up in Christ who turns out to be both its
maker and keeper, and that is why repentance is sealed by being baptized into
him.
D
From: Lance Muir
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006
1:45 PMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What
is the gospel?
- Original Message -
From: Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: January 14, 2006 12:54
Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Well it is something that needs to be repented of JD;
if it is not sin, then why the need to repent?
Dead works is something lifeless as opposed to works
of righteousness which are the fruit of walking after the spirit.
One is dead religion - the other is life and
peace.
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:17:39 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Yes -- and who said that "repentance from dead
works" is speaking of sin, anyway? "Dead works" is that
body of works that convinces someone that she is accpted by God RATHER THAN
PLACING HER FAITH IN THE CHRIST and allowing Him and Him alone to be
glorified in this [saving] function. Bill's comment
is brilliant, I think, and as it is attached to Acts 2 --
the best possible understanding of what happened on that First
Day.
There is no reason to think that the Hebrews writer has something else
in mind when he speaks of repentance from the failing effort of self
justification.
jd
From:
"Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Debbie Sawczak
Dead worksis not the same as immorality, which
is what I think David means by sin. IMO, that [his equating sin with
immorality] is where this false and hence problematic distinction arises
between repentance from 'sin' and repentance from a failure to recognize
who Christ is.
yD
From: Lance Muir
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006
10:01 AMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: Fw:
[TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: January 14, 2006 09:38
Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Re:
repentance: basically, your admitting that Bill's understanding of the
Acts passage he postedis correct--i'd agree that's bible
teaching
however, the
point you are trying tomake about it, represented below,is a
scripturedog that don't hunt--as usual, itis your own private
notion universalized, shot through with geekness butrooted plainly
(through contrast) in personalized philosophy,over which you
sprinklesome home-brew holy waterlabeled 'Heb
6:1'
the issue
historically is that you don't study and think much about (e.g.) Heb 6:1
while continually presupposing that it matches your philosophical
bias,bec to you it sounds alwayslike it
does
in the end,
it simply ain't bible teaching, Bro
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:46:06 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:|| Surely you know better than to hang the entire
gospel on one's interpretation of one sermon.
|| Heb. 6:1 says that an elementary principle of the doctrine
of Christ is repentance from dead works. This clearly links
repentance and sin.
||
--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked
by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Datab
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
The problem with Debbie's analysis is that this street preacher does not herald a call from immoral living to moral living without Christ. Rather, the call is to turn from immoral living to a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's another one of those straw man divisions which does not really exist. Nevertheless, the Elijah spirit is one which prepares the way of the Lord, and one to which we ought not object. If you happen to have stumbled on a street preacher in the spirit of Elijah, you ought not object just because your theology tells you he is majoring on the minors. John the Baptist prepared people to believe upon Jesus by preaching the following: Luke 3:7-14 (7) Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. (9) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (10) And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? (11) He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. (12) Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? (13) And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. (14) And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. In modern times, the call goes out, say not that you are Catholic, say not you have a pope, say not you are Baptist, or Methodist, or Lutheran, or Presbyterian. God is able to raise up children from this sidewalk. Judgment is coming and every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. Turn away from your sins and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ in deed and in truth. He that says he believes in him will keep his commandments. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Couldn't have said it better myself! In fact, what upsets me is that I couldn't have even said it }:( Oh well, that's not going to stop me from agreeing with it :) Well said, Debbie. Bill - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 12:20 PM Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 14, 2006 14:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Of course it is sin and needs repenting of. (JD is actually making the same vocabulary mistake below as DM.) But it is not immorality; in fact, it is morality. Where this whole discussion of repentance began was with a critique of street preachers' focus on repentance as a call to turn from immoral living to moral living. As pointed out long ago by Bill and/or JD, the repentance urged on people in much biblical preaching was not a call to moral living, but a call to recognize God. Insofar as it was a call to moral living, it was to people who were already the people of God, and was a call to recognize God as covenant partner. Peter's sermon fits right into that and moves beyond it; the covenant is gathered up in Christ who turns out to be both its maker and keeper, and that is why repentance is sealed by being baptized into him. D From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 1:45 PM To: Debbie Sawczak Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 12:54 Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Well it is something that needs to be repented of JD; if it is not sin, then why the need to repent? Dead works is something lifeless as opposed to works of righteousness which are the fruit of walking after the spirit. One is dead religion - the other is life and peace. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:17:39 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes -- and who said that repentance from dead works is speaking of sin, anyway? Dead works is that body of works that convinces someone that she is accpted by God RATHER THAN PLACING HER FAITH IN THE CHRIST and allowing Him and Him alone to be glorified in this [saving] function. Bill's comment is brilliant, I think, and as it is attached to Acts 2 -- the best possible understanding of what happened on that First Day. There is no reason to think that the Hebrews writer has something else in mind when he speaks of repentance from the failing effort of self
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
In modern times, the call goes out, "say not that you are Catholic, say not you have a pope, say not you are Baptist, or Methodist, or Lutheran, or Presbyterian. God is able to raise up children from this sidewalk. Judgment is coming and every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. Turn away from your sins and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ in deed and in truth. He that says he believes in him will keep his commandments." dm Why the quotes? -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] The problem with Debbie's analysis is that this street preacher does not herald a call from immoral living to moral living without Christ. Rather, the call is to turn from immoral living to a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's another one of those straw man divisions which does not really exist. Nevertheless, the Elijah spirit is one which prepares the way of the Lord, and one to which we ought not object. If you happen to have stumbled on a street preacher in the spirit of Elijah, you ought not object just because your theology tells you he is majoring on the minors. John the Baptist prepared people to believe upon Jesus by preaching the following: Luke 3:7-14 (7) Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. (9) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (10) And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? (11) He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. (12) Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? (13) And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. (14) And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he s aid unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. In modern times, the call goes out, "say not that you are Catholic, say not you have a pope, say not you are Baptist, or Methodist, or Lutheran, or Presbyterian. God is able to raise up children from this sidewalk. Judgment is coming and every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. Turn away from your sins and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ in deed and in truth. He that says he believes in him will keep his commandments." David Miller. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Couldn't have said it better myself! In fact, what upsets me is that I couldn't have even said it }:( Oh well, t hat's not going to stop me from agreeing with it :) Well said, Debbie. Bill - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 12:20 PM Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 14, 2006 14:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Of course it is sin and needs repenting of. (JD is actually making the same vocabulary mistake below as DM.) But it is not immorality; in fact, it is morality. Where this whole discussion of repentance began was with a critique of street preachers' focus on repentance as a call to turn from immoral living to moral living. As pointed out long ago by Bill and/or JD, the repentance urged on people in much biblical preaching was not a call to mo ral living, but a call to recognize God. Insofar as it was a call to moral living, it was to people who were already the people of God, and was a call to recognize God as covenant partner. Peter's sermon fits right into that and moves beyond it; the covenant is gathered up in Christ who turns out to be both its maker and keeper, and that is why repentance is sealed by being baptized into him. D From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 1:45 PM To: Debbie Sawczak Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 12:54 Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?Well it is something that needs to be repented of JD; if it is not sin, then why the need to repent? Dead works is something lifeless as opposed to works of righteousness which are the fruit of walking after the spirit. One is dead religion - the other is life an
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
"Dead works" are those personal imperatives that one one uses to point to the right path to salvation. Works of righteousness flow FROM the influence of the Indwelling and testify to a fact already accomplished. jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well it is something that needs to be repented of JD; if it is not sin, then why the need to repent? Dead works is something lifeless as opposed to works of righteousness which are the fruit of walking after the spirit. One is dead religion - the other is life and peace. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:17:39 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes -- and who said that "repentance from dead works" is speaking of sin, anyway? "Dead works" is that body of works that convinces someone that she is accpted by God RATHER THAN PLACING HER FAITH IN THE CHRIST and allowing Him and Him alone to be glorified in this [saving] function. Bill's comment is brilliant, I think, and as it is attached to Acts 2 -- the best possible understanding of what happened on that First Day. There is no reason to think that the Hebrews writer has something else in mind when he speaks of repentance from the failing effort of self justification. jd From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Debbie Sawczak Dead worksis not the same as immorality, which is what I think David means by sin. IMO, that [his equating sin with immorality] is where this false and hence problematic distinction arises between repentance from 'sin' and repentance from a failure to recognize who Christ is. yD From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:01 AMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 09:38 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Re: repentance: basically, your admitting that Bill's understanding of the Acts passage he postedis correct--i'd agree that's bible teaching however, the point you are trying tomake about it, represented below,is a scripturedog that don't hunt--as usual, itis your own private notion universalized, shot through with geekness butrooted plainly (through contrast) in personalized philosophy,over which you sprinklesome home-brew holy waterlabeled 'Heb 6:1' the issue historically is that you don't study and think much about (e.g.) Heb 6:1 while continually presupposing that it matches your philosophical bias,bec to you it sounds alwayslike it does in the end, it simply ain't bible teaching, Bro On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:46:06 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:|| Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's interpretation of one sermon. || Heb. 6:1 says that an elementary principle of the doctrine of Christ is repentance from dead works. This clearly links repentance and sin. || --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
not taken too much of your time. I don't think we are really that far apart on this matter, but perhaps my comments will provoke some additional considerations on your part. My prayers and blessings are with you and your family. God bless. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:13 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Hi David, I want to begin by apologizing to you, but I am not going to be able to give your questions the attention they deserve. I wrote most of last night (in between short posts to others), thinking I was approximating what I needed to say in order present a satisfactory response; however, upon reading my reply, I realized that I was still leaving much unsaid. Nevertheless the problem boils down to this: either an appropriate answer is going to take more time than I have to offer, or I am going to have to condense my thoughts, knowing that they will not fully -- or perhaps even adequately -- address your inquiry. I'll attempt to do the best I can with the latter. I think Dean said quite well one of the points I would like to make: If one is going to preach the condemnation of the law of sin, then he or she must give the sinner a way out, which is Christ; for to fail to do so is to leave a soul in torment, and not in a state of grace (thanks Dean). This it seems to me is the locus of failure in most of the preaching on repentance which I have encountered. It is certainly at the center of my concerns against street preaching. When repentance is preached as the introduction to the good news of Jesus Christ to people whose background is not rooted and grounded in the grammar of God's correspondence with humanity, which is inclusive of most people in the western world today, the bottom line is this: it is being preached out of context. There is no repentance apart from Jesus Christ and to expect people to repent who do not know him is to demand of them the impossible. Repent? What the hell for? and What does that even mean? The confusion I see over the topic of preaching repentance, is based in a failure on the part of most Christians to realize that repentance, when it was preached in the New Testament, was directed almost exclusively (I am inclined to leave off the almost but have not fully research it) to people who were already people of God: it was preached to God's people, the Jews; or to people who knew Christ -- relationally, if not also via personal encounter -- and had put their faith in him. These were people to whom the utterance had meaning. It was meaningful because it was already contextualized in the language of God. To them, repentance meant not only a turning away from something -- as Dean puts it, the law of sin -- but a turning to the one whom they already knew as God. The great difficulty they had was in turning to Jesus Christ as the One who was that God. And as you know, many of them refused to do so. And so, to those people, repentance was firstly a change of mind, a turning away from old beliefs and a turning to a new way of thinking about God. The task of repentance for them entailed a restructuring of their thinking about who this God was in whom they had believed. Theirs was to begin to think of God in a way which placed Jesus at the heart of God's identity. It was thus a first order paradigm shift. Repent for what? Repent about this man you know as Jesus of Nazareth. Change your mind about him. He is your Messiah. To preach repentance to people who do not have this contextual background is to place upon them a death sentence. It is to throw the whole weight of salvation upon their shoulders and to expect of them what no one apart from Christ has ever accomplished: I have to do something in order to be saved, but I have not the will to pull it off. Hence, if it is taken seriously at all, the weight of that decision will crush them -- if not today, then someday soon. Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. I think I'll cut is off with that, David. To go further would be to get into things we have discussed many times in the past. I hope this begins to address your questions and to give you some indication as to my thoughts in relation to this subject. I am sorry that I do not have more time to spend on this, but I have dozens of papers to grade, on top of wanting to spend some time with Tanya and Andy, not to mention I'm over sixty posts behind in my ready :) Thanks DavidM. I hope you are not displeased with me. Bill - Original Message
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
The interloper speaks: NO DAVID, IT DID NOT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION. You saw the 'yes' and, harkening back the days of olde (yes/no) it made you think that it answered the question. (remember those days?) You wished for him (Bill) to say YES so, you read him to say yes. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 12, 2006 12:42 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Bill wrote: Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes This answered my question, Bill, thank you. It was nice icing on the cake to read the rest of your thoughts. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that your standard framework of thinking readily sees repentance as part of the gospel. What I mean is that it seems to me that you are kind of being pushed toward admitting that repentance is part of the gospel because of what you read in the Bible, but your standard framework of thinking pushes the preaching of repentance away from being up front and center like it was in the ministry of Jesus and his apostles. You gave some cultural reasons why you think this ought to be so, but I have a little different perspective that I would like to share below. Bill wrote: When repentance is preached as the introduction to the good news of Jesus Christ to people whose background is not rooted and grounded in the grammar of God's correspondence with humanity, which is inclusive of most people in the western world today, the bottom line is this: it is being preached out of context. I think we view society very differently. About 85% of those in the United States profess to be Christian. One would be hard pressed to find anyone in our society who has not heard of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, I do not find much question about what we mean when we use the word repentance. Oh, you can be sure that when I preach I explain it. I want to be sure they understand exactly what I mean, but most people seem to have a good idea about the word before I even start. My preaching style is one where I tend to ask questions before making a point. For example, I will ask the crowd, how many of you know what repentance is. I let them answer. That tells me what my audience knows and what they don't know. I do the same thing in the Sunday School class that I teach. Do you want to know what word it was that gave students the most trouble this week? It was the word worldliness. I have had this come up before too. Just as the word gay has changed in meaning over the last 50 years, so this word is shifting in primary usage. The word has more general usage nowadays to describe someone well traveled and educated in the different cultures of the world. So when they read a sign with it listed as a sin, it provokes dialogue. What could possibly be wrong with worldliness? Isn't worldliness a good thing? Bill wrote: There is no repentance apart from Jesus Christ and to expect people to repent who do not know him is to demand of them the impossible. Repent? What the hell for? and What does that even mean? Perhaps you are talking about total repentance of all sins. In regards to specific sins, many people repent without it being any kind of response to the gospel of Jesus Christ. People regret sins and stop doing them all the time, in many religions, and even atheists will do this. It really is not as foreign a concept as you seem to make it. In fact, I think one of the reasons that repentance forms the foundation for preaching the gospel is because it is probably the term people can most relate toward. Faith is much more difficult to understand and practice by someone in sin. Faith is something they do automatically when they repent after realizing that they are completely helpless and lost and in need of a Savior. That realization comes from the message that they need to repent, and in attempting to comply with that message, they are led into faith in their Savior, Jesus Christ. Bill wrote: The confusion I see over the topic of preaching repentance, is based in a failure on the part of most Christians to realize that repentance, when it was preached in the New Testament, was directed almost exclusively (I am inclined to leave off the almost but have not fully research it) to people who were already people of God: it was preached to God's people, the Jews; or to people who knew Christ -- relationally, if not also via personal encounter -- and had put their faith in him. Aw, Bill, the message was primarily to the sinners, not to the theologians and scholars who explained things away with their minds. In my experience, the problem has nothing at all to do with confusion. It has to do with the fact that people love their sin. They follow the prince of this world. Their loyalty is not to God. This week a man attempted to mock me while I was preaching. He had a science fiction work called, The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide, by Douglas Adams. He held it up
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, Lance, but I did not wish for Bill to say yes. I am simply asking him to tell me whether or not repentance is part of the gospel because his post seemed to juxtapose repentance with the gospel. Bill rightfully acknowledged that repentance is part of the gospel. Why are you saying that Bill does not believe that repentance is part of the gospel? David Miller. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? The interloper speaks: NO DAVID, IT DID NOT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION. You saw the 'yes' and, harkening back the days of olde (yes/no) it made you think that it answered the question. (remember those days?) You wished for him (Bill) to say YES so, you read him to say yes. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 12, 2006 12:42 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Bill wrote: Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes This answered my question, Bill, thank you. It was nice icing on the cake to read the rest of your thoughts. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that your standard framework of thinking readily sees repentance as part of the gospel. What I mean is that it seems to me that you are kind of being pushed toward admitting that repentance is part of the gospel because of what you read in the Bible, but your standard framework of thinking pushes the preaching of repentance away from being up front and center like it was in the ministry of Jesus and his apostles. You gave some cultural reasons why you think this ought to be so, but I have a little different perspective that I would like to share below. Bill wrote: When repentance is preached as the introduction to the good news of Jesus Christ to people whose background is not rooted and grounded in the grammar of God's correspondence with humanity, which is inclusive of most people in the western world today, the bottom line is this: it is being preached out of context. I think we view society very differently. About 85% of those in the United States profess to be Christian. One would be hard pressed to find anyone in our society who has not heard of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, I do not find much question about what we mean when we use the word repentance. Oh, you can be sure that when I preach I explain it. I want to be sure they understand exactly what I mean, but most people seem to have a good idea about the word before I even start. My preaching style is one where I tend to ask questions before making a point. For example, I will ask the crowd, how many of you know what repentance is. I let them answer. That tells me what my audience knows and what they don't know. I do the same thing in the Sunday School class that I teach. Do you want to know what word it was that gave students the most trouble this week? It was the word worldliness. I have had this come up before too. Just as the word gay has changed in meaning over the last 50 years, so this word is shifting in primary usage. The word has more general usage nowadays to describe someone well traveled and educated in the different cultures of the world. So when they read a sign with it listed as a sin, it provokes dialogue. What could possibly be wrong with worldliness? Isn't worldliness a good thing? Bill wrote: There is no repentance apart from Jesus Christ and to expect people to repent who do not know him is to demand of them the impossible. Repent? What the hell for? and What does that even mean? Perhaps you are talking about total repentance of all sins. In regards to specific sins, many people repent without it being any kind of response to the gospel of Jesus Christ. People regret sins and stop doing them all the time, in many religions, and even atheists will do this. It really is not as foreign a concept as you seem to make it. In fact, I think one of the reasons that repentance forms the foundation for preaching the gospel is because it is probably the term people can most relate toward. Faith is much more difficult to understand and practice by someone in sin. Faith is something they do automatically when they repent after realizing that they are completely helpless and lost and in need of a Savior. That realization comes from the message that they need to repent, and in attempting to comply with that message, they are led into faith in their Savior, Jesus Christ. Bill wrote: The confusion I see over the topic of preaching repentance, is based in a failure on the part of most Christians to realize that repentance, when it was preached in the New Testament, was directed almost exclusively (I am inclined to leave off the almost but have not fully research it) to people who were already people of God: it was preached to God's
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Bill wrote: And so, to those people, repentance was firstly a change of mind, a turning away from old beliefs and a turning to a new way of thinking about God. The task of repentance for them entailed a restructuring of their thinking about who this God was in whom they had believed. Theirs was to begin to think of God in a way which placed Jesus at the heart of God's identity. It was thus a first order paradigm shift. Repent for what? Repent about this man you know as Jesus of Nazareth. Change your mind about him. He is your Messiah. Upon further reflection of your words here, I am starting to wonder what relationship there is in your mind between sin and repentance. You seem to think of repentance as a theological paradigm shift about one's philosophical understanding of the Godhead, particularly concerning Jesus' position therein, rather than a changing of one's mind about his participation in sin. Would you care to clarify? I bet Judy smells a rat here. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
The interloper says 'horsefeathers'!! - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 12, 2006 17:48 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Bill wrote: And so, to those people, repentance was firstly a change of mind, a turning away from old beliefs and a turning to a new way of thinking about God. The task of repentance for them entailed a restructuring of their thinking about who this God was in whom they had believed. Theirs was to begin to think of God in a way which placed Jesus at the heart of God's identity. It was thus a first order paradigm shift. Repent for what? Repent about this man you know as Jesus of Nazareth. Change your mind about him. He is your Messiah. Upon further reflection of your words here, I am starting to wonder what relationship there is in your mind between sin and repentance. You seem to think of repentance as a theological paradigm shift about one's philosophical understanding of the Godhead, particularly concerning Jesus' position therein, rather than a changing of one's mind about his participation in sin. Would you care to clarify? I bet Judy smells a rat here. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
You already know why, David. If you claim not to then, you don't know yourself (there's an ol 'saw') - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 12, 2006 17:43 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? I'm not sure what you are trying to say, Lance, but I did not wish for Bill to say yes. I am simply asking him to tell me whether or not repentance is part of the gospel because his post seemed to juxtapose repentance with the gospel. Bill rightfully acknowledged that repentance is part of the gospel. Why are you saying that Bill does not believe that repentance is part of the gospel? David Miller. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? The interloper speaks: NO DAVID, IT DID NOT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION. You saw the 'yes' and, harkening back the days of olde (yes/no) it made you think that it answered the question. (remember those days?) You wished for him (Bill) to say YES so, you read him to say yes. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 12, 2006 12:42 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Bill wrote: Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes This answered my question, Bill, thank you. It was nice icing on the cake to read the rest of your thoughts. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that your standard framework of thinking readily sees repentance as part of the gospel. What I mean is that it seems to me that you are kind of being pushed toward admitting that repentance is part of the gospel because of what you read in the Bible, but your standard framework of thinking pushes the preaching of repentance away from being up front and center like it was in the ministry of Jesus and his apostles. You gave some cultural reasons why you think this ought to be so, but I have a little different perspective that I would like to share below. Bill wrote: When repentance is preached as the introduction to the good news of Jesus Christ to people whose background is not rooted and grounded in the grammar of God's correspondence with humanity, which is inclusive of most people in the western world today, the bottom line is this: it is being preached out of context. I think we view society very differently. About 85% of those in the United States profess to be Christian. One would be hard pressed to find anyone in our society who has not heard of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, I do not find much question about what we mean when we use the word repentance. Oh, you can be sure that when I preach I explain it. I want to be sure they understand exactly what I mean, but most people seem to have a good idea about the word before I even start. My preaching style is one where I tend to ask questions before making a point. For example, I will ask the crowd, how many of you know what repentance is. I let them answer. That tells me what my audience knows and what they don't know. I do the same thing in the Sunday School class that I teach. Do you want to know what word it was that gave students the most trouble this week? It was the word worldliness. I have had this come up before too. Just as the word gay has changed in meaning over the last 50 years, so this word is shifting in primary usage. The word has more general usage nowadays to describe someone well traveled and educated in the different cultures of the world. So when they read a sign with it listed as a sin, it provokes dialogue. What could possibly be wrong with worldliness? Isn't worldliness a good thing? Bill wrote: There is no repentance apart from Jesus Christ and to expect people to repent who do not know him is to demand of them the impossible. Repent? What the hell for? and What does that even mean? Perhaps you are talking about total repentance of all sins. In regards to specific sins, many people repent without it being any kind of response to the gospel of Jesus Christ. People regret sins and stop doing them all the time, in many religions, and even atheists will do this. It really is not as foreign a concept as you seem to make it. In fact, I think one of the reasons that repentance forms the foundation for preaching the gospel is because it is probably the term people can most relate toward. Faith is much more difficult to understand and practice by someone in sin. Faith is something they do automatically when they repent after realizing that they are completely helpless and lost and in need of a Savior. That realization comes from the message that they need to repent, and in attempting to comply with that message, they are led into faith in their Savior, Jesus Christ. Bill wrote: The confusion I see over the topic of preaching repentance, is based in a failure on the part of most Christians
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
David, I started a response to this and my computer locked up and I lost it. And so I'm writing to let you know that a response will be coming, but not tonight. Sorry about the delay. Bill - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Bill wrote: And so, to those people, repentance was firstly a change of mind, a turning away from old beliefs and a turning to a new way of thinking about God. The task of repentance for them entailed a restructuring of their thinking about who this God was in whom they had believed. Theirs was to begin to think of God in a way which placed Jesus at the heart of God's identity. It was thus a first order paradigm shift. Repent for what? Repent about this man you know as Jesus of Nazareth. Change your mind about him. He is your Messiah. Upon further reflection of your words here, I am starting to wonder what relationship there is in your mind between sin and repentance. You seem to think of repentance as a theological paradigm shift about one's philosophical understanding of the Godhead, particularly concerning Jesus' position therein, rather than a changing of one's mind about his participation in sin. Would you care to clarify? I bet Judy smells a rat here. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
cd: Do a word search on Grace and note how often Paul uses that word in the New Testament-and you have your reply Bro as it must be part of the message -We are to preach Jesus Christ and Him Crucified an absolute must- I Cor. 1:23, 1 Cor 2:2. [Original Message] From: Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 1/10/2006 11:32:39 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Good questions, David. I am working on a reply. Bill - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 4:38 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Bill wrote: no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. Christ, it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: Repent, or be damn! I have seen a few street preachers that focus on this message too, and others who seem to speak of nothing but abortion. Right now I am focused on preaching against an official state sanctioned department of immorality at the University of Florida called the LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered) Affairs department. Sometimes students ask me why don't I address some other sins or other issues. Well, the Lord sent me on this mission and right now I am focused upon one thing, at least up through March of this year. They should talk to the Lord about why if they have a problem with it. I will for a minute or two address some other pressing issue, but I am always pressed in my spirit not to turn aside from the mission God has put on my heart. As I engage the students in dialogue and debate, I am always saying, let's get back to why I'm here today... My question to you is this. The message, Repent or be damned, is this not part of the gospel that Jesus preached? Is it not a part of the gospel that most ministers neglect greatly? You seem to speak about this message as being excluded from the gospel when you say, they never really got to the gospel. I realize that you might want to go to definitions about the word gospel meaning good news, but good news is always in a context. If people do not know they are damned by their sins, which is prevelant in this culture of lawlessness, then an emphasis of salvation is not a message of good news. It is simply a message of an archaic religion that most people find unnecessary for life. Considering the actual record we have of what was preached, starting with John the Baptist, moving to Jesus, and then to his apostles, is the message, Repent or be damned really not part of the gospel? What do you think? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Hi David, I want to begin by apologizing to you, but I am not going to be able to give your questions the attention they deserve. I wrote most of last night (in between short posts to others), thinking I was approximating what I needed to say in order present a satisfactory response; however, upon reading my reply, I realized that I was still leaving much unsaid. Nevertheless the problem boils down to this: eitheran appropriate answeris going to take more time than I have to offer, or I am going to have tocondense my thoughts, knowing that they will not fully -- or perhaps even adequately -- address your inquiry. I'll attempt to do the best I can with thelatter. I think Dean said quite well one of the points I would like to make: If one is going to preach the condemnation of the law of sin, then he or she must give the sinner a way out, which is Christ; for to fail to do so is to leave a soul in torment, andnot in a state of grace (thanks Dean). This it seems to me is the locus of failure in most of the preaching on repentance whichI have encountered. It is certainly at the center of my concerns against "street preaching." When repentance is preached as the introduction to the good news of Jesus Christ to people whose background is not rooted and grounded in the grammar of God's correspondence with humanity, which is inclusive of most people in the western world today, the bottom line is this:it is being preached out of context. There is no repentance apart from Jesus Christ and to expect people to repent who do not know him is to demand of them the impossible. "Repent? What the hell for? and Whatdoes that even mean?" The confusion I see over the topic of preaching repentance, is based in a failure on the part of most Christians to realize that repentance, when it was preached in the New Testament, was directed almost exclusively(I am inclined toleave off the "almost"buthavenot fully research it) to people who were already people of God: it was preached to God's people, the Jews; or topeople who knew Christ -- relationally, if not also via personal encounter -- and had put their faith in him. These were people to whom theutterance had meaning. It was meaningful because it was already contextualized in the language of God. To them, repentance meant not only a turning away from something -- as Dean puts it, "the law of sin" -- but a turning to the one whom they alreadyknew asGod.The great difficulty they had was in turning to Jesus Christ as the One who was that God. And as you know, many of them refused to do so. And so, to those people, "repentance" was firstly achange of mind, a turning away from old beliefs and a turning to a new way of thinking about God. The task of repentance for them entailed a restructuring of their thinking about who this God was in whom they had believed. Theirs was to begin to think of God in a way which placed Jesus at the heart of God's identity. It was thus afirst order paradigm shift. Repent for what? Repent about this man you know as Jesus of Nazareth. Change your mind about him. He is your Messiah. To preach repentance to people who do not have this contextual backgroundis to place upon thema death sentence. It is to throw the whole weight of salvation upon their shoulders and to expect of them what no one apart from Christ has ever accomplished:"I have to do something in order to be saved, but I have not the will topull it off."Hence, if it is taken seriously at all, the weight of that decision will crush them -- if not today, then someday soon. Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. I think I'll cut is off with that, David. To go further would be to get into things we have discussed many times in the past. I hope this begins to address your questions and to give you some indication as to my thoughts in relation to this subject. I am sorry that I do not have more time to spend on this, but I have dozens of papers to grade, on top of wanting to spend some time with Tanya and Andy, not to mention I'm over sixty posts behind in my ready :) Thanks DavidM. I hope you are not displeased with me. Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 4:38 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Bill wrote: no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" I have seen a few street preachers that focus on this message too, and others who seem to speak of
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
The context of the public ministry -- an excellent point. jd -- Original message -- From: "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi David, I want to begin by apologizing to you, but I am not going to be able to give your questions the attention they deserve. I wrote most of last night (in between short posts to others), thinking I was approximating what I needed to say in order present a satisfactory response; however, upon reading my reply, I realized that I was still leaving much unsaid. Nevertheless the problem boils down to this: eitheran appropriate answeris going to take more time than I have to offer, or I am going to have tocondense my thoughts, knowing that they will not fully -- or perhaps even adequately -- address your inquiry. I'll attempt to do the best I can with thelatter. I think Dean said quite well one of the points I would like to make: If one is going to preach the condemnation of the law of sin, then he or she must give the sinner a way out, which is Christ; for to fail to do so is to leave a soul in torment, andnot in a state of grace (thanks Dean). This it seems to me is the locus of failure in most of the preaching on repentance whichI have encountered. It is certainly at the center of my concerns against "street preaching." When repentance is preached as the introduction to the good news of Jesus Christ to people whose background is not rooted and grounded in the grammar of God's correspondence with humanity, which is inclusive of most people in the western world today, the bottom line is this:it is being preached out of context. There is no repentance apart from Jesus Christ and to expect people to repent who do not know him is to demand of them the impossible. "Repent? What the hell for? and Whatdoes that even mean?" The confusion I see over the topic of preaching repentance, is based in a failure on the part of most Christians to realize that repentance, when it was preached in the New Testament, was directed almost exclusively(I am inclined toleave off the "almost"buthavenot fully research it) to people who were already people of God: it was preached to God's people, the Jews; or topeople who knew Christ -- relationally, if not also via personal encounter -- and had put their faith in him. These were people to whom theutterance had meaning. It was meaningful because it was already contextualized in the language of God. To them, repentance meant not only a turning away from something -- as Dean puts it, "the law of sin" -- but a turning to the one whom they alreadyknew asGod.The great difficulty they had was in turning to Jesus Christ as the One who was that God. And as you know, many of them refused to do so. And so, to those people, "repentance" was firstly achange of mind, a turning away from old beliefs and a turning to a new way of thinking about God. The task of repentance for them entailed a restructuring of their thinking about who this God was in whom they had believed. Theirs was to begin to think of God in a way which placed Jesus at the heart of God's identity. It was thus afirst order paradigm shift. Repent for what? Repent about this man you know as Jesus of Nazareth. Change your mind about him. He is your Messiah. To preach repentance to people who do not have this contextual backgroundis to place upon thema death sentence. It is to throw the whole weight of salvation upon their shoulders and to expect of them what no one apart from Christ has ever accomplished:"I have to do something in order to be saved, but I have not the will topull it off."Hence, if it is taken seriously at all, the weight of that decision will crush them -- if not today, then someday soon. Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. I think I'll cut is off with that, David. To go further would be to get into things we have discussed many times in the past. I hope this begins to address your questions and to give you some indication as to my thoughts in relation to this subject. I am sorry that I do not have more time to spend on this, but I have dozens of papers to grade, on top of wanting to spend some time with Tanya and Andy, not to mention I'm over sixty posts behind in my ready :) Thanks DavidM. I hope you are not displeased with me. Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 4:38 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Bill wrote: no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" I have seen a few
Re: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Good questions, David. I am working on a reply. Bill - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 4:38 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Bill wrote: no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. Christ, it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: Repent, or be damn! I have seen a few street preachers that focus on this message too, and others who seem to speak of nothing but abortion. Right now I am focused on preaching against an official state sanctioned department of immorality at the University of Florida called the LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered) Affairs department. Sometimes students ask me why don't I address some other sins or other issues. Well, the Lord sent me on this mission and right now I am focused upon one thing, at least up through March of this year. They should talk to the Lord about why if they have a problem with it. I will for a minute or two address some other pressing issue, but I am always pressed in my spirit not to turn aside from the mission God has put on my heart. As I engage the students in dialogue and debate, I am always saying, let's get back to why I'm here today... My question to you is this. The message, Repent or be damned, is this not part of the gospel that Jesus preached? Is it not a part of the gospel that most ministers neglect greatly? You seem to speak about this message as being excluded from the gospel when you say, they never really got to the gospel. I realize that you might want to go to definitions about the word gospel meaning good news, but good news is always in a context. If people do not know they are damned by their sins, which is prevelant in this culture of lawlessness, then an emphasis of salvation is not a message of good news. It is simply a message of an archaic religion that most people find unnecessary for life. Considering the actual record we have of what was preached, starting with John the Baptist, moving to Jesus, and then to his apostles, is the message, Repent or be damned really not part of the gospel? What do you think? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
