Re: [Tutor] How to post: Was Re: The Charms of Gmail
You know what? I've been lurking here a long time. I've asked a few questions and gotten a few useful responses. But overwhelmingly, when I think of this list, I find that my instinctive response is Full of rude, arrogant people. So screw this. I don't need to keep reading insults to people who are trying to ask reasonable questions. I don't need to read long rants about how GMail is ruining the world and all its users ought to be banned. I don't need to watch people be harassed for daring to top-post. There's at least one post in every thread I read here that makes me think This guy's a jerk... why am I reading this? I'm done. With the list, and possibly with Python... it doesn't seem to do much that other languages I like don't do, and the loudest portion of the language's advocates -- not the majority, just the loudest -- are just plain obnoxious. I don't need that in my life. Good luck to all of you, and I hope your lives are pleasant. And I hope those of you who don't currently know learn how to treat people politely. Andy McKenzie On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.infowrote: On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:59:15PM +, Mark Lawrence wrote: I entirely agree. I'll offer to supply the cotton wool, baby oil, bibs and nappies that we can wrap the newbies up in Wrap the newbies up in? Who taught you to speak English? And what's with the two spaces after a full stop? It's not 1955 anymore, get with the program. (See how annoying it is to have the substance of your post completely ignored while trivial incidentals are picked on? Are you now even a *tiny* bit moved to use a single space after full stops?) as we don't want to offend them. It's not about *offending* them. It's about being a tedious, shrill nagger that makes the whole environment unpleasant for everybody, not just the newbies. If you can give advice without being unpleasant and a nag, please do so. Would you rather be right, and ignored, or effective? I mean if we do offend them, they might desert us for places such as stackoverflow, where they can read top voted answers that are completely wrong. I keep hearing people say this about StackOverflow, but whenever I google on a question I find plenty of good answers there. Yes, I see some pretty wrong or silly or ignorant answers, but not as the top-voted answer. Can you show me some of these top-voted but wrong answers? -- Steven ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Beginner Question
On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Sven Hennig shenni...@googlemail.comwrote: Hello, I would like to learn a programming language and have decided to use Python. I have some programming experience and doing well in Python. What really causes me problems is OOP. I'm just dont get it... I'm missing a really Practical example. In every book I've read are the examples of such Class Dog and the function is bark . Has anyone an OOP example for me as it is really used in real code, so I can better understand the concept? I do not know why this is so hard for me. Greetings Sven The actual code I have is in PHP, so it's not exactly useful to post here, but I can give you an outline of a class I used and found useful. The class was created to help me manipulate network subnets in an interface to handle DHCP and DNS on a server. class subnet: def __init__(cidr): # Do some stuff with the CIDR notation of the subnet (1.2.3.0/24syntax) def netmask: # Calculate the netmask and return it (ie, 255.255.255.0) def first_ip: # Calculate and return the first IP in the range. def last_ip: # Calculate and return the last IP in the range def number_of_addresses: # Calculate the number of usable addresses in the range and return that value The benefit to me was that I could create an instance of the subnet object for a group (say, lab_1), and then pull out various information. Calling lab_1.first_ip() returns the first possible IP address. That was a lot more readable and a lot more concise than something like first_ip( 1.2.3.0/24). I hope this helps! Andy ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] global variables
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Matthew Ngaha chigga...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Chris Down ch...@chrisdown.name wrote: I would doubt that anyone has told you don't ever use classes, because that's nonsense; you've probably misread a dissuasion from that path in a single instance as applying more broadly than was intended. I am being totally honest here. I was very confused at the time and i said i didn't agree because it's what i had put so much effort into learning. They went on to say at some well known Python talks speakers have stated why using OOP (especially inheritance, but not excluding any others) is very bad design and the same thing can always be achieved without it. To be clear they said every use case OOP is the worst option. I asked what about GUIs which their design is strongly based around OOP? and they sad GUIs are badly designed to begin with so it proves the point about OOP. OK, I'm not a fantastic programmer in any language, but this strikes me as someone with an axe to grind giving bad advice to new programmers. Here are a few of the things that I see wrong with their statements: 1) For almost every option in programming, there's at least one case where it's a good idea, design-wise. Saying in every use case OOP is the worst option is absurd. Of course there are cases where it's not the worst option. There are also cases where it is. That goes for just about everything. 2) If they think OOP is always a bad idea, WHY are they using Python? Isn't object orientation kind of the whole POINT of Python? From python.org: Python is an interpreted, object-oriented, high-level programming language with dynamic semantics. If they honestly believe that object oriented programming is always a bad idea, they really need to pick a different language. Perl, maybe, although even in Perl people are doing object oriented work. I have trouble believing that someone who believes OOP is inherently bad is a current high-level programmer in Python, unless they're trapped in a job they don't want to be doing. 3) Bad design in a product does not mean bad design in the tool used to build it. I've built some really terrible things out of wood with really nice tools. I've watched people use really nice drafting tools to design houses that would have been unusable for living in. Saying badly designed GUIs prove that OOP is bad is, frankly, illogical at best and stupid at worst. I strongly suspect that either the speaker they were listening to wasn't clear, or they weren't clear. Either that, or the speaker or whoever you were talking to mis-represented their ability level. Andy ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] [OT] Replies go to individuals, not the list?
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Leam Hall leamh...@gmail.com wrote: All, Am I more confused than normal or if I click Reply should it go just to the sender instead of the list? Yep. Someone decided it didn't make sense for reply to go to the list that sent the message and should be receiving the reply. I've never understood it, even after reading the arguments in favor. Andy ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] [OT] Replies go to individuals, not the list?
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Alan Gauld alan.ga...@btinternet.comwrote: On 20/08/13 13:15, Andy McKenzie wrote: Yep. Someone decided it didn't make sense for reply to go to the list that sent the message Lists never send messages. People do. So reply goes to the *person* who sent the message. Which is what mail always does, to modify it for mail forwarded by a list server makes no sense whatsoever. And it breaks the ability to send to the originator. IMHO of course :-) http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutorhttp://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor The problem is, as far as I'm concerned the message came from the list. Needing to go to the dropdown and select Reply to all is just one extra movement, and it's one I have to make every single time I reply. In all honesty, I can't think of a single time that I've wanted to reply to just the original sender: that's the point of a mailing list, to have conversations on it. I've occasionally been prompted to remember that I wanted to ask an individual something specific off-list, but it's never been a direct response to what was posted ON the list. As to the ability to send to the originator: I've been on a lot of lists where the address was munged. They all included the original sender's email address in the body, so if I really wanted to send to them, I could. And the rest of the time (basically always) I didn't have to think about it. It's basically a practicality thing for me. On a list where the vast majority of replies went to the original sender, I'd agree with you. For something like this, it's just making me do extra work without providing me with an extra benefit. Andy ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] [OT] Replies go to individuals, not the list?
leam hall wrote: The only question I have is what is compelling about being different than other lists? Far as I can tell, most reply to the list if you click reply. It's not something to get religious over; if I reply and don't have time to make sure it goes to those who might be interested, at least it will go to the person I'm responding to. They can forward it on if it's important enough. :) Yeah, and top-posting with html mail is similarly taking the easy way out. After all, who cares if everyone else has to put up with your bad habits. Well, since someone else brought it up... I really prefer top posting. In general, I don't WANT to reread every message: I want to quickly get to whatever is new. Top posting, much like the return-address munging question, is a personal preference. For me, it runs opposite to what this list requires. Clearly whoever set up this list agreed with you. What REALLY gets to me is the people who try to insist that their way is objectively RIGHT, and everyone else is practicing bad habits, or polluting the net, or some other nonsense like that. The fact is, we just have different work flow preferences. You like one thing, I like another. If you want to present your view rationally and objectively, or talk about your preferred layouts, that's fine. But let's not start saying someone has bad habits because they disagree with you. Andy ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
[Tutor] Multiple search and replace?
Hey folks, I'm trying to figure out how to do something, and it feels like it should be possible, but I can't figure out how. What I want is to define four expressions, like so: (\sNorth\s|\sN\s)(\sSouth\s|\sS\s)(\sEast\s|\sE\s)(\sWest\s|\sW\s) And then run a replace such that the groups are replaced, in order, with N , S , E , or W (capital letters, no spaces before). It's easy enough to use re.sub to replace ONE of those, and I could just do that four times, but is there a way to do all at once? It looks from some things I've seen like it should be, but I can't figure out how. Thanks, Andy McKenzie ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] multiple versions of python on windows?
I have no idea on Wing, but I'm using Eclipse with the PyDev plugin, and I'm able to associate projects with either Python 2.7 or 3.2 in Windows. It checks for correct grammar in each, and if I tell it to run as a Python script, it uses the correct executable. So if you're not tied to Wing, you might give Eclipse/PyDev a try. -Andy On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Jim Mooney cybervigila...@gmail.comwrote: On 21 April 2013 22:47, School northri...@s.dcsdk12.org wrote: You can install multiple versions. The programs use the version they were assigned to, so there shouldn't be any conflict. This brings up the question of installing multiple versions of Wing 101 IDE. I forget the install but even if I can install in a different directory for Py 2.7, Windows awful Registry might trip me up. I've grown to love portables since they bypass Windows Worst Idea, but Wing isn't one of them. If anyone knows, does the paid version of wing allow to switch between multipe installs? I know, this is probably a Wing discuss question, but I'm burned out on joining discussion groups to ask one question, since otherwise Wing is very easy to grasp. -- Jim Mooney Today is the day that would have been tomorrow if yesterday was today ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
[Tutor] Hello, and a newbie question
Hey folks. I'm just starting to pick up Python, and I'd like to avoid some of the mistakes I made in the past. To elaborate on that, my primary programming/scripting experience is PHP, with a little bit of Perl thrown in. Like so many people who write in PHP, I was entirely self-taught, and would be the first to admit that a lot of what I've written is, well... wrong. It works, but it's sloppy and inefficient, because there were standard constructions and solutions I just didn't know about. I'd like to avoid that with Python. So: my first two questions to the list. 1) Python 2.7 or 3.x? I know I'm going to want to do some work with NLTK (which appears to only have an alpha version out for Python 3), but I've just gone through the hassle of dealing with an upgrade from PHP 4 to 5.3, and I'd rather not start learning something that's already obsolete. Any words of advice? 2) Best practices. I have the WROX Press Beginning Python book, which targets Python 2. Clearly that's of only limited value if I'm going to go with Python 3, but it looks like it's at least going to be a good overview. But some of the stuff they do seems to be fairly personalized, rather than trying to follow standards. Should I just start out with the tutorial from docs.python.org? I would assume that that would start putting me in the right habits from the beginning... is that accurate, or is there a better way to go? Thanks in advance, Andy McKenzie ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Hello, and a newbie question
On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Dave Angel da...@davea.name wrote:
On 04/16/2013 11:58 AM, Andy McKenzie wrote:
Hey folks.
I'm just starting to pick up Python, and I'd like to avoid some of the
mistakes I made in the past. To elaborate on that, my primary
programming/scripting experience is PHP, with a little bit of Perl thrown
in. Like so many people who write in PHP, I was entirely self-taught, and
would be the first to admit that a lot of what I've written is, well...
wrong. It works, but it's sloppy and inefficient, because there were
standard constructions and solutions I just didn't know about. I'd like
to
avoid that with Python.
Welcome to the mailing list. I expect you'll find Python a much cleaner
language than the other two, though php has some definite convenience for
its particular niche.
So: my first two questions to the list.
1) Python 2.7 or 3.x? I know I'm going to want to do some work with NLTK
(which appears to only have an alpha version out for Python 3), but I've
just gone through the hassle of dealing with an upgrade from PHP 4 to 5.3,
and I'd rather not start learning something that's already obsolete. Any
words of advice?
If you have to use a library that's not available yet for 3.x, then you
need to use 2.x on the other hand, if you're learning now, maybe that
library will be available by the time you actually need it.
For most people, I'd advise against trying to use a tutorial that targets
a different version than you're running. If you get frustrated quickly,
you can get bogged down by the differences when you're just copying an
exact program out of some book.
Python 3 in particular has spent some substantial effort cleaning up the
warts, the biggest one being Unicode. For beginning programmers using only
ASCII, probably the main thing that'll bog you down is that print() is now
a function, rather than a statement, so you need parentheses. But once you
get used to seeing syntax error, you quickly get the hang of it. And once
you do, the function is much nicer.
2) Best practices. I have the WROX Press Beginning Python book, which
targets Python 2. Clearly that's of only limited value if I'm going to go
with Python 3, but it looks like it's at least going to be a good
overview.
But some of the stuff they do seems to be fairly personalized, rather
than
trying to follow standards. Should I just start out with the tutorial
from
docs.python.org? I would assume that that would start putting me in the
right habits from the beginning... is that accurate, or is there a better
way to go?
Thanks in advance,
Andy McKenzie
I'd start with the python.org tutorial for the version you're trying to
learn. Get serious about trying everything, and don't try to absorb it all
in one sitting, even though it can be done.
And use a text editor that helps you indent, or even that colorizes your
code. And when you just want to try things, use the interpreter directly.
It's amazing what you can learn directly from it. You can ask the
interpreter lots of questions about an object:
help(obj)
dir(obj)
print( type(obj) )
print( repr(obj) )
And don't forget to post here when you seem to be stuck. Sometimes a well
placed comment beats days of struggling. When you do get an exception you
don't understand, paste the whole thing, as well as the code you were
trying.
Best of luck.
Thanks for the advice, folks. Given that it looks like the biggest changes
are unicode handling (which I'm not going to need any time soon) and the
way the print function works, I decided to stick with 2.7. I'm an IT guy,
though unemployed at the moment, and it occurred to me that I'm familiar
with Python, but not the version your entire established codebase is in
wasn't a great thing to have on a resume.
Since it looks like the new formatting for print -- that is, print(Print
this stuff!) -- works fine in 2.7, I'm just getting myself used to doing
that from the beginning.
I went through the first four or five sections of the tutorial this
afternoon, with a few side trips into things that got me interested, and I
figure I'll do at least one more section after dinner. I did find it
interesting that one of the first things I wanted to know turned out to be
an extremely common question: What's the Python equivalent to print_r()
from PHP? If any of you are familiar with PHP (I know at least a couple
of you seemed to be), you'll know that pprint() (which seems to be the most
common answer) isn't actually very close. Its output isn't nearly as
readable.
For instance: output of running print_r on a very short dictionary from
PHP:
Array
(
[key3] = thing3
[key2] = thing2
[key1] = thing1
)
And running pprint on the same dict in Python:
{'key1': 'thing1', 'key2': 'thing2', 'key3': 'thing3'}
I finally decided that a good project would be building a quick function
that recreates the print_r
Re: [Tutor] Hello, and a newbie question
On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Dave Angel da...@davea.name wrote: On 04/16/2013 05:20 PM, Andy McKenzie wrote: SNIP Thanks for the advice, folks. Given that it looks like the biggest changes are unicode handling (which I'm not going to need any time soon) and the way the print function works, I decided to stick with 2.7. I'm an IT guy, though unemployed at the moment, and it occurred to me that I'm familiar with Python, but not the version your entire established codebase is in wasn't a great thing to have on a resume. Since it looks like the new formatting for print -- that is, print(Print this stuff!) -- works fine in 2.7, I'm just getting myself used to doing that from the beginning. The degenerate print, where you're printing exactly one thing, works the same. But if you have two things to print, putting parens around them in Python 2.x will cause a tuple to be printed, rather than printing the two with a space between. print(3,5) -- version 2.x (3, 5) print(3,5) -- version 3.x 3 5 To get 3.x functionality, you'd want to use from __future__ import print_function and I do not think that works in 2.6 or older versions. It also can be awkward even in 2.7 if you're mixing existing code with new print functions. That's good to know, since I hadn't run into it yet. So am I correct in understanding that I can just put the from __future__ import print_function in each new 2.7 script, and get identical functionality to what happens in 3.x? Or do I need to do that system-wide somehow? -Andy ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Hello, and a newbie question
On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Alan Gauld alan.ga...@btinternet.comwrote:
On 16/04/13 22:20, Andy McKenzie wrote:
For instance: output of running print_r on a very short dictionary from
PHP:
Array
(
[key3] = thing3
[key2] = thing2
[key1] = thing1
)
And running pprint on the same dict in Python:
{'key1': 'thing1', 'key2': 'thing2', 'key3': 'thing3'}
I finally decided that a good project would be building a quick function
that recreates the print_r function, and I got that working. New
function output, in Python:
(
[key3] = thing3
[key2] = thing2
[key1] = thing1
)
You should probably use {} instead of () as the delimiter to indicate that
the thing is a dictionary and not a tuple. but otherwise that's a good
starter project.
Good idea. I went with () because I was just trying to duplicate the
output in PHP. Now that I've got that, I can start thinking about
improvements. Varying the punctuation to match the type would probably be
a good idea.
Thanks,
Andy
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