Re: [Tutor] META: Moderation and subscription to the tutor list

[Alan Gauld via Tutor]

On 08/05/16 08:59, Alan Gauld via Tutor wrote:

> This means you can get
> - single emails (default)
> - emails plus digest

- digest and no emails

> - neither (this is my choice because I read via gmane)

Sorry, I missed an option...


-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
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Re: [Tutor] META: Moderation and subscription to the tutor list

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, May 08, 2016 at 08:59:01AM +0100, Alan Gauld via Tutor wrote:
> On 01/05/16 05:18, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> > ...(And I think we should default to 
> > individual emails, not daily digest.)
> 
> It took me a little while to find this one, but I've checked
> and the default is to receive individual emails. You need to
> opt-in to get the digests and opt-out to stop getting emails.

Thanks for checking!

-- 
Steve
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Re: [Tutor] META: Moderation and subscription to the tutor list

[Alan Gauld via Tutor]

On 01/05/16 05:18, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> ...(And I think we should default to 
> individual emails, not daily digest.)

It took me a little while to find this one, but I've checked
and the default is to receive individual emails. You need to
opt-in to get the digests and opt-out to stop getting emails.

This means you can get
- single emails (default)
- emails plus digest
- neither (this is my choice because I read via gmane)

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


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Re: [Tutor] META: Moderation and subscription to the tutor list

[Alan Gauld via Tutor]

On 01/05/16 07:23, boB Stepp wrote:

> I am in agreement with this as well.  I have often wondered if
> newcomers are subscribed or not

Most are. Several who are not, subscribe very soon
after - presumably in response to the intro message.

>  as after subscription one receives a
> very helpful email which addresses most of the common post formatting
> issues that we seem to endlessly rehash.  Or perhaps I am one of the
> few who actually read it upon subscribing?

Probably most don't read it (all). But many simply are not
technically savvy enough to know how to post in plain text,
or avoid top posting etc. There are foreign concepts to many
of the modern generation of internet users.

> I wonder no matter which way the current matter gets decided, if it
> might be time to rewrite the automated response email.  

I'm open to suggestions on this. It has gradually grown over
the years as new caveats get added. A rewrite is something
that is within our remit and abilities without involving
the list admins.

> mentioned.  It probably should be added.  I feel that the interleaved
> writing style employed by many lists is completely foreign to
> newcomers to programming.

Absolutely. In fact even some programmers have never come
across it because it's not how most web forums (fora?) work.
And business email is now almost universally on Outlook/Exchange
and top posting is the norm.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


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Re: [Tutor] META: Moderation and subscription to the tutor list

[Alan Gauld via Tutor]

On 01/05/16 10:06, Alan Gauld via Tutor wrote:

> Quite a lot of people use the digest service, especially lurkers.
> (A quick scan of the members lists suggests around 35-40%
> of all members use digest). I'd be reluctant to remove a
> service that is so widely used.

I've just had a look at the digest options and one possible option
is to send a Mime format digest rather than plain text. I'm not sure
what that would mean in practice but from experience on other
lists it may mean users see individual messages that they can reply to.
This would potentially avoid the long multi-message replies we currently
see. I don't know how it would affect threading.

I therefore propose to switch on MIME digest mode as a trial
at the end of next week if I don't hear a compelling reason
not to...

Hopefully most modern mail tools can handle MIME digests nowadays.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


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Re: [Tutor] META: Moderation and subscription to the tutor list

[Alan Gauld via Tutor]

On 01/05/16 06:35, c...@zip.com.au wrote:

> There seems to me a subjectly large number of very short threads with a 
> question from someone, a couple of responses from list members, and no 
> further 
> reply.
> 
> To me this argues that either newcomers are not subscribed and probably do 
> not 
> see any responses, or that sufficient are discourteous enough or naive enough 
> to nothing bother to acknowledge help.

I suspect the latter...

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


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Re: [Tutor] META: Moderation and subscription to the tutor list

[Alan Gauld via Tutor]

On 01/05/16 05:18, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> What's your policy here on the tutor list? 

I don't really have a policy. The list policy, set by
my predecessors, is to allow anyone to send mail and
encourage them to subscribe. All unsubscribed mail
goes to moderation (and there is not very much of it).

New subscribers are automatically put on moderation.
They are manually removed from moderation when they
post often enough that I recognize their ID and have
enough time/energy to visit the members page...

Replies can be seen by non subscribers in several
places including python.org, activestate.com and gmane.

> I think we should require 
> subscription before people can post. 

That doesn't achieve much since several lists servers
like gmane are subscribed so anyone on gmane etc can post
(albeit they go into the moderation queue). And the hassle
of subscribing may put some newbies off posting at all,
which we don't want.

> (And I think we should default to individual emails, 
> not daily digest.)

Quite a lot of people use the digest service, especially lurkers.
(A quick scan of the members lists suggests around 35-40%
of all members use digest). I'd be reluctant to remove a
service that is so widely used.

While modern mail tools generally have filters that can do
a similar job I do sympathise with digest users since I used
to be one of them and it was a useful way to keep the mail
count down. But they should take the time to post replies
'nicely'...


-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


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Re: [Tutor] META: Moderation and subscription to the tutor list

[boB Stepp]

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:35 AM,   wrote:
> On 01May2016 14:18, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Alan,
>>
>> I thought I'd mention that the list-owners of "python-list" have now
>> decided to only allow people to post if they are subscribed to the list:
>>
>> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2016-April/707571.html
>>
>> The motivation is to ensure that if people ask a question, and people
>> reply only to the list, the original poster has at least a chance of
>> seeing the replies.
>>
>> Of course, in the case of python-list, non-subscribers can just use the
>> Usenet interface (comp.lang.python, or Google Groups, or gmane). But
>> anyone using Usenet is presumably savvy enough to check for replies
>> using Usenet.
>>
>> What's your policy here on the tutor list? I think we should require
>> subscription before people can post. (And I think we should default to
>> individual emails, not daily digest.)
>
>
> I am not Alan, but personally I am +0.8 and +1 on these.
>
> I think requiring subscription ensures that users see responses. I don't
> know if tutor is already like that, and requiring subscription _does_ raise
> the bar for people coming for help. I would hope that any "please subscribe
> in order to post" list responses to newcomers was both welcoming and very
> clear on how to do it.

I am in agreement with this as well.  I have often wondered if
newcomers are subscribed or not as after subscription one receives a
very helpful email which addresses most of the common post formatting
issues that we seem to endlessly rehash.  Or perhaps I am one of the
few who actually read it upon subscribing?

I wonder no matter which way the current matter gets decided, if it
might be time to rewrite the automated response email.  I just got one
(again) after sending a different post and looking it over, it is
overly long and wordy, perhaps discouraging newcomers from actually
reading it?  Also, I note that the verboten "top posting" is never
mentioned.  It probably should be added.  I feel that the interleaved
writing style employed by many lists is completely foreign to
newcomers to programming.

> There seems to me a subjectly large number of very short threads with a
> question from someone, a couple of responses from list members, and no
> further reply.

> Finally, I would like to see digest simply not offered. They are a disaster.
> They break subject lines, threading and bury responses in noise.

+ infinity!

-- 
boB
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Re: [Tutor] META: Moderation and subscription to the tutor list

[cs]

On 01May2016 14:18, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

Hi Alan,

I thought I'd mention that the list-owners of "python-list" have now
decided to only allow people to post if they are subscribed to the list:

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2016-April/707571.html

The motivation is to ensure that if people ask a question, and people
reply only to the list, the original poster has at least a chance of
seeing the replies.

Of course, in the case of python-list, non-subscribers can just use the
Usenet interface (comp.lang.python, or Google Groups, or gmane). But
anyone using Usenet is presumably savvy enough to check for replies
using Usenet.

What's your policy here on the tutor list? I think we should require
subscription before people can post. (And I think we should default to
individual emails, not daily digest.)


I am not Alan, but personally I am +0.8 and +1 on these.

I think requiring subscription ensures that users see responses. I don't know 
if tutor is already like that, and requiring subscription _does_ raise the bar 
for people coming for help. I would hope that any "please subscribe in order to 
post" list responses to newcomers was both welcoming and very clear on how to 
do it.


There seems to me a subjectly large number of very short threads with a 
question from someone, a couple of responses from list members, and no further 
reply.


To me this argues that either newcomers are not subscribed and probably do not 
see any responses, or that sufficient are discourteous enough or naive enough 
to nothing bother to acknowledge help.


Finally, I would like to see digest simply not offered. They are a disaster.  
They break subject lines, threading and bury responses in noise.


Cheers,
Cameron Simpson 
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[Tutor] META: Moderation and subscription to the tutor list

[Steven D'Aprano]

Hi Alan,


I thought I'd mention that the list-owners of "python-list" have now 
decided to only allow people to post if they are subscribed to the list:

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2016-April/707571.html


The motivation is to ensure that if people ask a question, and people 
reply only to the list, the original poster has at least a chance of 
seeing the replies.

Of course, in the case of python-list, non-subscribers can just use the 
Usenet interface (comp.lang.python, or Google Groups, or gmane). But 
anyone using Usenet is presumably savvy enough to check for replies 
using Usenet.

What's your policy here on the tutor list? I think we should require 
subscription before people can post. (And I think we should default to 
individual emails, not daily digest.)



-- 
Steve
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