Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
> > C'mon, FFS, you know what I mean. > > Nobody has called anybody a Nazi, okay? > > I'm sorry Dewald, but when I think Gestapo, "knitting circle" is not the > first thing that comes to mind. Nazi is. Yes Twitter needs to be a > little more clear in their communication (ironic?) with developers and > not just send out blank e-mails when they deny a whitelist application > or blacklist somebody as spam. But that is not "Gestapo-like" tactics. > Go ask a survivor of WWII; I'm sure they could tell you the difference. I think Ryan Sarver has covered most of this in his reply. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Payne --
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
On 2/15/2010 4:14 PM, Dewald Pretorius wrote: Oh for crying out loud, is everyone now going to stare themselves blind at the phrase "Gestapo-like" and forget about the issue at hand? It is meant to portray a one-sided action where the accused party is not afforded a voice, or his/her objections, rationale, or explanations are ignored. C'mon, FFS, you know what I mean. Nobody has called anybody a Nazi, okay? I'm sorry Dewald, but when I think Gestapo, "knitting circle" is not the first thing that comes to mind. Nazi is. Yes Twitter needs to be a little more clear in their communication (ironic?) with developers and not just send out blank e-mails when they deny a whitelist application or blacklist somebody as spam. But that is not "Gestapo-like" tactics. Go ask a survivor of WWII; I'm sure they could tell you the difference.
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
Jim, It's part of the functionality of the tool, so it's not something that is prone to a human forgetting. Is the jim_fulford account the one that your OAuth tokens are associated with? Either way, a...@twitter.com is your best channel for follow up. Thanks, Ryan On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Jim Fulford wrote: > Ryan, can you check and see if #1 below is really happening. My > twitter account is > jim_fulford. It has my main email on it, and has never been changed. > I did not get a warning > or a suspension notice of any kind. > > Thanks > Jim Fulford > > On Feb 16, 1:46 pm, Ryan Sarver wrote: > > Sorry I am a little late to the thread and there are a lot of topics here > so > > I'll do my best to cover them. > > > > 1. Email notices - we send out an email for warnings and for suspensions > > every time to the email on record for the account that is being > suspended. > > If the email isn't up to date or isn't valid then you won't receive it, > but > > otherwise an email goes out every time. So it would be good to make sure > the > > email on record for each account is a valid one. > > > > 2. Dispute a warning or suspension - we've always said that emailing > > a...@twitter.com is the right path for disputing a warning or > suspension. If > > you feel that you have emailed us at that address and haven't gotten a > > response, let me know, but the whole reason we use ticketing on that > email > > endpoint is to make sure we follow up with each thread. > > > > 3. Publication of policies - we are working to make them clearer and > easier > > to find. However, we disagree that posting explicit boundaries is a good > > idea. The policies are in place to help enforce the spirit of Twitter > which > > cannot be broken down into explicit numbers. If you are having problems > with > > living on the edges of the unpublished numbers, then you are likely doing > > something that is not within the spirit of the platform. > > > > 4. Hostile language - we have said over and over that we are open to > > constructive criticism. It forces us to be better and we strive to be > > better, however, we won't put up with hostile and inflammatory language > on > > the list. We're all professionals here and we expect a certain level of > > professionalism from everyone on the list. > > > > Let me know if you have any questions. Best, Ryan > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Dewald Pretorius > wrote: > > > Nom nom nom, say the spammers. > > > > > Add to that method a few proxies and/or IP addresses, or something as > > > simple as giving your users a PHP proxy pass-thru script that they can > > > upload to their servers, and there is no way that Twitter can even > > > identify the offending app, let alone suspend/ban/blackhole it. > > > > > On Feb 16, 12:28 pm, PJB wrote: > > > > Presumably to do the OAuth vanity plate, you have to do what you > > > > described in your "disgruntled developer" post above. I.e., the user > > > > registers their own OAuth app and enters the corresponding values in > > > > your app, allowing you to masquerade as their app in tweets. > Frankly, > > > > it seems to run counter to the purposes of OAuth. But the developer > > > > of one vanity plate app I found publishes email correspondence with > > > > "Brian" from Twitter, and says they have been personally vetted by > > > > Twitter, so I guess it is okay...- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - >
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
Perfectly put Ryan. On 16 Feb 2010, at 18:46, Ryan Sarver wrote: > Sorry I am a little late to the thread and there are a lot of topics here so > I'll do my best to cover them. > > 1. Email notices - we send out an email for warnings and for suspensions > every time to the email on record for the account that is being suspended. If > the email isn't up to date or isn't valid then you won't receive it, but > otherwise an email goes out every time. So it would be good to make sure the > email on record for each account is a valid one. > > 2. Dispute a warning or suspension - we've always said that emailing > a...@twitter.com is the right path for disputing a warning or suspension. If > you feel that you have emailed us at that address and haven't gotten a > response, let me know, but the whole reason we use ticketing on that email > endpoint is to make sure we follow up with each thread. > > 3. Publication of policies - we are working to make them clearer and easier > to find. However, we disagree that posting explicit boundaries is a good > idea. The policies are in place to help enforce the spirit of Twitter which > cannot be broken down into explicit numbers. If you are having problems with > living on the edges of the unpublished numbers, then you are likely doing > something that is not within the spirit of the platform. > > 4. Hostile language - we have said over and over that we are open to > constructive criticism. It forces us to be better and we strive to be better, > however, we won't put up with hostile and inflammatory language on the list. > We're all professionals here and we expect a certain level of professionalism > from everyone on the list. > > Let me know if you have any questions. Best, Ryan smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
Thanks for your response Ryan. Growing pains are painful, but communication is the soothing sav.. On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Ryan Sarver wrote: > Sorry I am a little late to the thread and there are a lot of topics here > so I'll do my best to cover them. > > 1. Email notices - we send out an email for warnings and for suspensions > every time to the email on record for the account that is being suspended. > If the email isn't up to date or isn't valid then you won't receive it, but > otherwise an email goes out every time. So it would be good to make sure the > email on record for each account is a valid one. > > 2. Dispute a warning or suspension - we've always said that emailing > a...@twitter.com is the right path for disputing a warning or suspension. > If you feel that you have emailed us at that address and haven't gotten a > response, let me know, but the whole reason we use ticketing on that email > endpoint is to make sure we follow up with each thread. > > 3. Publication of policies - we are working to make them clearer and easier > to find. However, we disagree that posting explicit boundaries is a good > idea. The policies are in place to help enforce the spirit of Twitter which > cannot be broken down into explicit numbers. If you are having problems with > living on the edges of the unpublished numbers, then you are likely doing > something that is not within the spirit of the platform. > > 4. Hostile language - we have said over and over that we are open to > constructive criticism. It forces us to be better and we strive to be > better, however, we won't put up with hostile and inflammatory language on > the list. We're all professionals here and we expect a certain level of > professionalism from everyone on the list. > > Let me know if you have any questions. Best, Ryan > > > On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Dewald Pretorius wrote: > >> Nom nom nom, say the spammers. >> >> Add to that method a few proxies and/or IP addresses, or something as >> simple as giving your users a PHP proxy pass-thru script that they can >> upload to their servers, and there is no way that Twitter can even >> identify the offending app, let alone suspend/ban/blackhole it. >> >> On Feb 16, 12:28 pm, PJB wrote: >> > Presumably to do the OAuth vanity plate, you have to do what you >> > described in your "disgruntled developer" post above. I.e., the user >> > registers their own OAuth app and enters the corresponding values in >> > your app, allowing you to masquerade as their app in tweets. Frankly, >> > it seems to run counter to the purposes of OAuth. But the developer >> > of one vanity plate app I found publishes email correspondence with >> > "Brian" from Twitter, and says they have been personally vetted by >> > Twitter, so I guess it is okay... >> > > -- Dale Merritt Fol.la MeDia, LLC
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
Sorry I am a little late to the thread and there are a lot of topics here so I'll do my best to cover them. 1. Email notices - we send out an email for warnings and for suspensions every time to the email on record for the account that is being suspended. If the email isn't up to date or isn't valid then you won't receive it, but otherwise an email goes out every time. So it would be good to make sure the email on record for each account is a valid one. 2. Dispute a warning or suspension - we've always said that emailing a...@twitter.com is the right path for disputing a warning or suspension. If you feel that you have emailed us at that address and haven't gotten a response, let me know, but the whole reason we use ticketing on that email endpoint is to make sure we follow up with each thread. 3. Publication of policies - we are working to make them clearer and easier to find. However, we disagree that posting explicit boundaries is a good idea. The policies are in place to help enforce the spirit of Twitter which cannot be broken down into explicit numbers. If you are having problems with living on the edges of the unpublished numbers, then you are likely doing something that is not within the spirit of the platform. 4. Hostile language - we have said over and over that we are open to constructive criticism. It forces us to be better and we strive to be better, however, we won't put up with hostile and inflammatory language on the list. We're all professionals here and we expect a certain level of professionalism from everyone on the list. Let me know if you have any questions. Best, Ryan On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Dewald Pretorius wrote: > Nom nom nom, say the spammers. > > Add to that method a few proxies and/or IP addresses, or something as > simple as giving your users a PHP proxy pass-thru script that they can > upload to their servers, and there is no way that Twitter can even > identify the offending app, let alone suspend/ban/blackhole it. > > On Feb 16, 12:28 pm, PJB wrote: > > Presumably to do the OAuth vanity plate, you have to do what you > > described in your "disgruntled developer" post above. I.e., the user > > registers their own OAuth app and enters the corresponding values in > > your app, allowing you to masquerade as their app in tweets. Frankly, > > it seems to run counter to the purposes of OAuth. But the developer > > of one vanity plate app I found publishes email correspondence with > > "Brian" from Twitter, and says they have been personally vetted by > > Twitter, so I guess it is okay... >
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
its not an excuse - but this one is (right now) out of my control. i've forwarded this thread along to those "in the know". On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 6:20 AM, Ryan Alford wrote: > Is it even worst that Raffi has seen this thread and posted in it, and > still not a peep? You would think that he would look into it and help out, > or contact somebody that could look into it. It's seems like they just have > their head in the sand. > > Ryan > > > On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Jim Fulford wrote: > >> 5 Days not and applicatin is still down and no response at all from >> Twitter on my Support Ticket. >> >> Beware of Oauth, Twitter can disable your site in a second with no >> notice. I have still not gotten any feedback, communication of any >> kind. The only nice thing about this process is that my users have >> been patient and understanding. Wish I could say the same about >> Twitter. See Below >> >> -- >> easyduzzit sent a message using the contact form at >> http://www.gotwitr.com/contact. >> >> When I look in my Twitter connections your service appears as >> follows: >> "GoTwitr by Phazer Systems Suspended." >> >> I'd appreciate knowing if there is anything your customers can do to >> let Twitter know we appreciate your service. >> >> >> >> >> > -- Raffi Krikorian Twitter Platform Team http://twitter.com/raffi
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
Is it even worst that Raffi has seen this thread and posted in it, and still not a peep? You would think that he would look into it and help out, or contact somebody that could look into it. It's seems like they just have their head in the sand. Ryan On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Jim Fulford wrote: > 5 Days not and applicatin is still down and no response at all from > Twitter on my Support Ticket. > > Beware of Oauth, Twitter can disable your site in a second with no > notice. I have still not gotten any feedback, communication of any > kind. The only nice thing about this process is that my users have > been patient and understanding. Wish I could say the same about > Twitter. See Below > > -- > easyduzzit sent a message using the contact form at > http://www.gotwitr.com/contact. > > When I look in my Twitter connections your service appears as > follows: > "GoTwitr by Phazer Systems Suspended." > > I'd appreciate knowing if there is anything your customers can do to > let Twitter know we appreciate your service. > > > > >
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
On 15 Feb 2010, at 22:59, Abraham Williams wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 14:55, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Quite. I've never felt in any way intimidated by the API group, and any > disagreements I have had with their policies have been entirely constructive. > > Ditto. However if anyone wishes to anonymously pass information to the > Twitter Platform Team I would be happy too help. > > Abraham > Ditto here. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
> Oh for crying out loud, is everyone now going to stare themselves > blind at the phrase "Gestapo-like" and forget about the issue at hand? > It is meant to portray a one-sided action where the accused party is > not afforded a voice, or his/her objections, rationale, or > explanations are ignored. Then say that instead of throwing bombs. Don't tell me you used the term in order to provoke absolutely *no* reaction at all. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- This manual has been carefully for errors to make sure correct. -- classiccmp
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Quite. I've never felt in any way intimidated by the API group, and any > disagreements I have had with their policies have been entirely constructive. I feel more intimidated by people in this group than the core Twitter team. I mean, some day, someone may compare me with some nazi stuff, or do empty threads of moving to some other service... -- Julio Biason Twitter: http://twitter.com/juliobiason
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 14:55, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Quite. I've never felt in any way intimidated by the API group, and any > disagreements I have had with their policies have been entirely > constructive. > Ditto. However if anyone wishes to anonymously pass information to the Twitter Platform Team I would be happy too help. Abraham -- Abraham Williams | Community Advocate | http://abrah.am Project | Out Loud | http://outloud.labs.poseurtech.com This email is: [ ] shareable [x] ask first [ ] private. Sent from Seattle, WA, United States
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
> > Look, it is self-evident by now that this heavy-handed Gestapo-like > > action against applications is causing great anxiety in the developer > > community. We now have two very recent incidents, one of which was > > handled by Brian, who is part of the Platform team. > > Dude, really? Gestapo? > > Look, I don't think it's awesome or anything, but be *really* careful > about attributing malice to something which could just be > incompetence. Encourage fair play, for sure, but let's stick to the > facts and avoid rhetoric. Quite. I've never felt in any way intimidated by the API group, and any disagreements I have had with their policies have been entirely constructive. Also, Godwin's. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- Silly is a state of mind, stupid is a way of life. -- Dave Butler --
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
i, for one, enjoy hearing (constructive) criticisms -- people should feel free to mail to this list, send a tweet to @twitterapi, find us on IRC, or, in the case of sensitive information, reach out to some of us directly. it forces us at twitter to become better. On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Dewald Pretorius wrote: > Raffi, > > People keep quiet and don't say what they really think on these forums > because they are scared of falling out of favor with you guys. That is > what I meant. > > On Feb 15, 5:54 pm, Raffi Krikorian wrote: > > "the wrath of the platform team" <- that's a highly unfair > characterization. > > just sayin'. > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Dewald Pretorius > wrote: > > > Look, it is self-evident by now that this heavy-handed Gestapo-like > > > action against applications is causing great anxiety in the developer > > > community. We now have two very recent incidents, one of which was > > > handled by Brian, who is part of the Platform team. > > > > > For every person who has commented on this thread, there are numerous > > > others who remain silent out of fear of incurring the wrath of the > > > Platform team. I know, some of them have emailed me privately about > > > this. > > > > > Ryan, we need to hear from you, please. > > > > > This is not a good situation, neither for you nor for us, and we > > > cannot solve this. Only you can. > > > > > On Feb 15, 4:16 pm, PJB wrote: > > > > I thought Twitter didn't like bots? If so, why did they apparently > > > > have one send out suspension warnings? That's at least my conclusion > > > > given their non-response to questions, at least in that case. > > > > > > (As well, it seems as though the OAuth push is, at least in part, > > > > about app policing.) > > > > > > One would have thought that the Twitter police would be better aimed > > > > at enacting policies to deal with abuse by end-users, rather than > such > > > > a heavy hand against apps. What's next? TweetDeck is going to be > > > > banned because they allow single-button duplicate tweets across > > > > multiple accounts? > > > > > > Some of us have built businesses and livelihoods around Twitter. > It's > > > > scary to have those things threatened by the possibility of > capricious > > > > enforcement handled by "no questions please" email demands. > > > > > > On Feb 15, 11:11 am, Abraham Williams <4bra...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Sounds like Twitter dropped the ball with notifications. It appears > > > that > > > > > Twitter normally does send notifications before suspension as > Refollow > > > [1] > > > > > got 2 warning. Although Rob had the issue of no response to > > > clarifications. > > > > > > > Abraham > > > > > > > [1] > > > > http://refollow.tumblr.com/post/380619972/weve-been-suspended-by-twitter > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:34, PJB wrote: > > > > > > > > Wow. What's really of concern is the capricious approach Twitter > > > > > > seems to have with app developers. Some apps are given a month > to > > > > > > make a change, some are cut off immediately, some are sent legal > > > > > > letters, some are contacted beforehand, some aren't. > > > > > > > > Frankly, there should be no tracking code. If there is an issue, > > > > > > apart from extreme situations, Twitter should contact the app > and, as > > > > > > they apparently did with socialtoo, give some reasonable period > of > > > > > > time to remedy. > > > > > > > > On Feb 15, 10:02 am, Peter Denton > wrote: > > > > > > > Twitter should at least send a notification suspension, as well > as > > > a > > > > > > > tracking code possibly, for both parties benefits, twitter and > the > > > app. > > > > > > > > > *Reason*: My app was suspended, for something perfectly > harmless, > > > and was > > > > > > > re-granted permission the next day, but it took a few > > > communications > > > > > > with > > > > > > > twitter to resolve. > > > > > > > > > This is only going to continue to become more and more > frequent. I > > > would > > > > > > > hate to envision a team of a few people having to follow up on > app > > > > > > > suspensions w/o reference. > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Dewald Pretorius < > > > dpr...@gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > The argument of, "Clearly defining rules helps the spammers > > > because > > > > > > > > then they know exactly how to stay just within the > boundaries," > > > holds > > > > > > > > _absolutely no_ water. > > > > > > > > > > Imagine you own an ice rink. You draw a circle with a radius > of 2 > > > > > > > > meters on the ice, and make the rule that it's okay to skate > > > inside > > > > > > > > the circle, and not okay to skate outside the circle. > > > > > > > > > > If someone skates right at the edge, at 1.999 meters, all the > > > time, it > > > > > > > > _does not matter_ because you have decided that it is okay > and > > > > > > > > acceptable to skate there. > > > > > > > > > > The same g
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law Abraham On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 13:51, Dewald Pretorius wrote: > Look, it is self-evident by now that this heavy-handed Gestapo-like > action against applications is causing great anxiety in the developer > community. We now have two very recent incidents, one of which was > handled by Brian, who is part of the Platform team. > > For every person who has commented on this thread, there are numerous > others who remain silent out of fear of incurring the wrath of the > Platform team. I know, some of them have emailed me privately about > this. > > Ryan, we need to hear from you, please. > > This is not a good situation, neither for you nor for us, and we > cannot solve this. Only you can. > > On Feb 15, 4:16 pm, PJB wrote: > > I thought Twitter didn't like bots? If so, why did they apparently > > have one send out suspension warnings? That's at least my conclusion > > given their non-response to questions, at least in that case. > > > > (As well, it seems as though the OAuth push is, at least in part, > > about app policing.) > > > > One would have thought that the Twitter police would be better aimed > > at enacting policies to deal with abuse by end-users, rather than such > > a heavy hand against apps. What's next? TweetDeck is going to be > > banned because they allow single-button duplicate tweets across > > multiple accounts? > > > > Some of us have built businesses and livelihoods around Twitter. It's > > scary to have those things threatened by the possibility of capricious > > enforcement handled by "no questions please" email demands. > > > > On Feb 15, 11:11 am, Abraham Williams <4bra...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Sounds like Twitter dropped the ball with notifications. It appears > that > > > Twitter normally does send notifications before suspension as Refollow > [1] > > > got 2 warning. Although Rob had the issue of no response to > clarifications. > > > > > Abraham > > > > > [1] > http://refollow.tumblr.com/post/380619972/weve-been-suspended-by-twitter > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:34, PJB wrote: > > > > > > Wow. What's really of concern is the capricious approach Twitter > > > > seems to have with app developers. Some apps are given a month to > > > > make a change, some are cut off immediately, some are sent legal > > > > letters, some are contacted beforehand, some aren't. > > > > > > Frankly, there should be no tracking code. If there is an issue, > > > > apart from extreme situations, Twitter should contact the app and, as > > > > they apparently did with socialtoo, give some reasonable period of > > > > time to remedy. > > > > > > On Feb 15, 10:02 am, Peter Denton wrote: > > > > > Twitter should at least send a notification suspension, as well as > a > > > > > tracking code possibly, for both parties benefits, twitter and the > app. > > > > > > > *Reason*: My app was suspended, for something perfectly harmless, > and was > > > > > re-granted permission the next day, but it took a few > communications > > > > with > > > > > twitter to resolve. > > > > > > > This is only going to continue to become more and more frequent. I > would > > > > > hate to envision a team of a few people having to follow up on app > > > > > suspensions w/o reference. > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Dewald Pretorius < > dpr...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > The argument of, "Clearly defining rules helps the spammers > because > > > > > > then they know exactly how to stay just within the boundaries," > holds > > > > > > _absolutely no_ water. > > > > > > > > Imagine you own an ice rink. You draw a circle with a radius of 2 > > > > > > meters on the ice, and make the rule that it's okay to skate > inside > > > > > > the circle, and not okay to skate outside the circle. > > > > > > > > If someone skates right at the edge, at 1.999 meters, all the > time, it > > > > > > _does not matter_ because you have decided that it is okay and > > > > > > acceptable to skate there. > > > > > > > > The same goes with Twitter rules. Make the rules very granular > and > > > > > > very clear. Then, if someone skates just within the fringes, _it > does > > > > > > not matter_ because they are still within what you deem > acceptable. > > > > > > > > And, then _everyone_ knows where is the line between good and bad > > > > > > application behavior, because then it is a fence and not a broad > gray > > > > > > smudge. > > > > > > > > Most app developers are _not_ "the enemy" and most app developers > will > > > > > > be more than happy to not develop or to disable features that > violate > > > > > > the rules. > > > > > > > > If only we can understand the rules. > > > > > > > > On Feb 15, 12:04 am, PJB wrote: > > > > > > > +1 to what Dewald says. > > > > > > > > > We are purposely NOT developing certain features for fear that > > > > Twitter > > > > > > > may suddenly change their rules once again. Is this the sort > of > > > > > > > business envi
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
"the wrath of the platform team" <- that's a highly unfair characterization. just sayin'. On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Dewald Pretorius wrote: > Look, it is self-evident by now that this heavy-handed Gestapo-like > action against applications is causing great anxiety in the developer > community. We now have two very recent incidents, one of which was > handled by Brian, who is part of the Platform team. > > For every person who has commented on this thread, there are numerous > others who remain silent out of fear of incurring the wrath of the > Platform team. I know, some of them have emailed me privately about > this. > > Ryan, we need to hear from you, please. > > This is not a good situation, neither for you nor for us, and we > cannot solve this. Only you can. > > On Feb 15, 4:16 pm, PJB wrote: > > I thought Twitter didn't like bots? If so, why did they apparently > > have one send out suspension warnings? That's at least my conclusion > > given their non-response to questions, at least in that case. > > > > (As well, it seems as though the OAuth push is, at least in part, > > about app policing.) > > > > One would have thought that the Twitter police would be better aimed > > at enacting policies to deal with abuse by end-users, rather than such > > a heavy hand against apps. What's next? TweetDeck is going to be > > banned because they allow single-button duplicate tweets across > > multiple accounts? > > > > Some of us have built businesses and livelihoods around Twitter. It's > > scary to have those things threatened by the possibility of capricious > > enforcement handled by "no questions please" email demands. > > > > On Feb 15, 11:11 am, Abraham Williams <4bra...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Sounds like Twitter dropped the ball with notifications. It appears > that > > > Twitter normally does send notifications before suspension as Refollow > [1] > > > got 2 warning. Although Rob had the issue of no response to > clarifications. > > > > > Abraham > > > > > [1] > http://refollow.tumblr.com/post/380619972/weve-been-suspended-by-twitter > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:34, PJB wrote: > > > > > > Wow. What's really of concern is the capricious approach Twitter > > > > seems to have with app developers. Some apps are given a month to > > > > make a change, some are cut off immediately, some are sent legal > > > > letters, some are contacted beforehand, some aren't. > > > > > > Frankly, there should be no tracking code. If there is an issue, > > > > apart from extreme situations, Twitter should contact the app and, as > > > > they apparently did with socialtoo, give some reasonable period of > > > > time to remedy. > > > > > > On Feb 15, 10:02 am, Peter Denton wrote: > > > > > Twitter should at least send a notification suspension, as well as > a > > > > > tracking code possibly, for both parties benefits, twitter and the > app. > > > > > > > *Reason*: My app was suspended, for something perfectly harmless, > and was > > > > > re-granted permission the next day, but it took a few > communications > > > > with > > > > > twitter to resolve. > > > > > > > This is only going to continue to become more and more frequent. I > would > > > > > hate to envision a team of a few people having to follow up on app > > > > > suspensions w/o reference. > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Dewald Pretorius < > dpr...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > The argument of, "Clearly defining rules helps the spammers > because > > > > > > then they know exactly how to stay just within the boundaries," > holds > > > > > > _absolutely no_ water. > > > > > > > > Imagine you own an ice rink. You draw a circle with a radius of 2 > > > > > > meters on the ice, and make the rule that it's okay to skate > inside > > > > > > the circle, and not okay to skate outside the circle. > > > > > > > > If someone skates right at the edge, at 1.999 meters, all the > time, it > > > > > > _does not matter_ because you have decided that it is okay and > > > > > > acceptable to skate there. > > > > > > > > The same goes with Twitter rules. Make the rules very granular > and > > > > > > very clear. Then, if someone skates just within the fringes, _it > does > > > > > > not matter_ because they are still within what you deem > acceptable. > > > > > > > > And, then _everyone_ knows where is the line between good and bad > > > > > > application behavior, because then it is a fence and not a broad > gray > > > > > > smudge. > > > > > > > > Most app developers are _not_ "the enemy" and most app developers > will > > > > > > be more than happy to not develop or to disable features that > violate > > > > > > the rules. > > > > > > > > If only we can understand the rules. > > > > > > > > On Feb 15, 12:04 am, PJB wrote: > > > > > > > +1 to what Dewald says. > > > > > > > > > We are purposely NOT developing certain features for fear that > > > > Twitter > > > > > > > may suddenly change their rules once again. Is this
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
Correction. Delv into what the specs might someday be. :-P Abraham On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:38, Dewald Pretorius wrote: > This type of behavior by Twitter and treatment of developers is a > _great_ motivator to delve into the specs of the Google Buzz API. > > On Feb 15, 3:11 pm, Abraham Williams <4bra...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Sounds like Twitter dropped the ball with notifications. It appears that > > Twitter normally does send notifications before suspension as Refollow > [1] > > got 2 warning. Although Rob had the issue of no response to > clarifications. > > > > Abraham > > > > [1] > http://refollow.tumblr.com/post/380619972/weve-been-suspended-by-twitter > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:34, PJB wrote: > > > > > Wow. What's really of concern is the capricious approach Twitter > > > seems to have with app developers. Some apps are given a month to > > > make a change, some are cut off immediately, some are sent legal > > > letters, some are contacted beforehand, some aren't. > > > > > Frankly, there should be no tracking code. If there is an issue, > > > apart from extreme situations, Twitter should contact the app and, as > > > they apparently did with socialtoo, give some reasonable period of > > > time to remedy. > > > > > On Feb 15, 10:02 am, Peter Denton wrote: > > > > Twitter should at least send a notification suspension, as well as a > > > > tracking code possibly, for both parties benefits, twitter and the > app. > > > > > > *Reason*: My app was suspended, for something perfectly harmless, and > was > > > > re-granted permission the next day, but it took a few communications > > > with > > > > twitter to resolve. > > > > > > This is only going to continue to become more and more frequent. I > would > > > > hate to envision a team of a few people having to follow up on app > > > > suspensions w/o reference. > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Dewald Pretorius > > > wrote: > > > > > The argument of, "Clearly defining rules helps the spammers because > > > > > then they know exactly how to stay just within the boundaries," > holds > > > > > _absolutely no_ water. > > > > > > > Imagine you own an ice rink. You draw a circle with a radius of 2 > > > > > meters on the ice, and make the rule that it's okay to skate inside > > > > > the circle, and not okay to skate outside the circle. > > > > > > > If someone skates right at the edge, at 1.999 meters, all the time, > it > > > > > _does not matter_ because you have decided that it is okay and > > > > > acceptable to skate there. > > > > > > > The same goes with Twitter rules. Make the rules very granular and > > > > > very clear. Then, if someone skates just within the fringes, _it > does > > > > > not matter_ because they are still within what you deem acceptable. > > > > > > > And, then _everyone_ knows where is the line between good and bad > > > > > application behavior, because then it is a fence and not a broad > gray > > > > > smudge. > > > > > > > Most app developers are _not_ "the enemy" and most app developers > will > > > > > be more than happy to not develop or to disable features that > violate > > > > > the rules. > > > > > > > If only we can understand the rules. > > > > > > > On Feb 15, 12:04 am, PJB wrote: > > > > > > +1 to what Dewald says. > > > > > > > > We are purposely NOT developing certain features for fear that > > > Twitter > > > > > > may suddenly change their rules once again. Is this the sort of > > > > > > business environment that Twitter wishes to foster? > > > > > > > > We had assumed that, at the very least, applications would be > > > > > > contacted before any sort of action on Twitter's behalf. But > > > > > > apparently not. And apparently this push for OAuth integration > is > > > > > > simply a means to more easily cut-off access to certain apps. > > > > > > > > Ugly. > > > > > > > > On Feb 14, 4:30 pm, Dewald Pretorius wrote: > > > > > > > > > I attempted to make clear that my issue was not with the guilt > or > > > > > > > innocence of GoTwitr. > > > > > > > > > It's with the message being sent to all of us when no > communication > > > > > > > accompanies a suspension. > > > > > > > > > I'm going to beat the dead horse yet again. With vague and > nebulous > > > > > > > rules, nobody knows for certain what is allowed and what is > not. > > > > > > > > > Twitter invite people to build businesses using their system > and > > > API. > > > > > > > By providing the platform, extending the invitation, and making > the > > > > > > > rules, they are also assuming a responsibility. > > > > > > > > > It is a grave concern that one's business can be terminated by > > > Twitter > > > > > > > with no warning and no explanation, based on some rule that > nobody > > > > > > > knows for certain exactly what it entails. It would have been a > > > > > > > slightly different situation had their rules been as clearly > > > defined > > > > > > > as Facebook's rules, but they're not, with intentio
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
Sounds like Twitter dropped the ball with notifications. It appears that Twitter normally does send notifications before suspension as Refollow [1] got 2 warning. Although Rob had the issue of no response to clarifications. Abraham [1] http://refollow.tumblr.com/post/380619972/weve-been-suspended-by-twitter On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:34, PJB wrote: > > Wow. What's really of concern is the capricious approach Twitter > seems to have with app developers. Some apps are given a month to > make a change, some are cut off immediately, some are sent legal > letters, some are contacted beforehand, some aren't. > > Frankly, there should be no tracking code. If there is an issue, > apart from extreme situations, Twitter should contact the app and, as > they apparently did with socialtoo, give some reasonable period of > time to remedy. > > > On Feb 15, 10:02 am, Peter Denton wrote: > > Twitter should at least send a notification suspension, as well as a > > tracking code possibly, for both parties benefits, twitter and the app. > > > > *Reason*: My app was suspended, for something perfectly harmless, and was > > re-granted permission the next day, but it took a few communications > with > > twitter to resolve. > > > > This is only going to continue to become more and more frequent. I would > > hate to envision a team of a few people having to follow up on app > > suspensions w/o reference. > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Dewald Pretorius > wrote: > > > The argument of, "Clearly defining rules helps the spammers because > > > then they know exactly how to stay just within the boundaries," holds > > > _absolutely no_ water. > > > > > Imagine you own an ice rink. You draw a circle with a radius of 2 > > > meters on the ice, and make the rule that it's okay to skate inside > > > the circle, and not okay to skate outside the circle. > > > > > If someone skates right at the edge, at 1.999 meters, all the time, it > > > _does not matter_ because you have decided that it is okay and > > > acceptable to skate there. > > > > > The same goes with Twitter rules. Make the rules very granular and > > > very clear. Then, if someone skates just within the fringes, _it does > > > not matter_ because they are still within what you deem acceptable. > > > > > And, then _everyone_ knows where is the line between good and bad > > > application behavior, because then it is a fence and not a broad gray > > > smudge. > > > > > Most app developers are _not_ "the enemy" and most app developers will > > > be more than happy to not develop or to disable features that violate > > > the rules. > > > > > If only we can understand the rules. > > > > > On Feb 15, 12:04 am, PJB wrote: > > > > +1 to what Dewald says. > > > > > > We are purposely NOT developing certain features for fear that > Twitter > > > > may suddenly change their rules once again. Is this the sort of > > > > business environment that Twitter wishes to foster? > > > > > > We had assumed that, at the very least, applications would be > > > > contacted before any sort of action on Twitter's behalf. But > > > > apparently not. And apparently this push for OAuth integration is > > > > simply a means to more easily cut-off access to certain apps. > > > > > > Ugly. > > > > > > On Feb 14, 4:30 pm, Dewald Pretorius wrote: > > > > > > > I attempted to make clear that my issue was not with the guilt or > > > > > innocence of GoTwitr. > > > > > > > It's with the message being sent to all of us when no communication > > > > > accompanies a suspension. > > > > > > > I'm going to beat the dead horse yet again. With vague and nebulous > > > > > rules, nobody knows for certain what is allowed and what is not. > > > > > > > Twitter invite people to build businesses using their system and > API. > > > > > By providing the platform, extending the invitation, and making the > > > > > rules, they are also assuming a responsibility. > > > > > > > It is a grave concern that one's business can be terminated by > Twitter > > > > > with no warning and no explanation, based on some rule that nobody > > > > > knows for certain exactly what it entails. It would have been a > > > > > slightly different situation had their rules been as clearly > defined > > > > > as Facebook's rules, but they're not, with intention. > > > > > > > Take follower churn for example. Do I churn followers if I unfollow > > > > > ten people in a day, and follow five others? Or do I only churn if > I > > > > > unfollow a hundred? Or is it two hundred? Or, wait, is the number > > > > > immaterial while my intention puts me in violation or not? If so, > how > > > > > is my intention discerned? > > > > > > > Take duplicate content for example. If I tweet "Happy New Year!" > every > > > > > January 1st, is that duplicate content? What about "Good morning > > > > > tweeps!" every morning? Will my personal and business accounts be > > > > > suspended if I tweet, "Can't wait for the iPad!" from the same IP > > > > > a
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
Twitter should at least send a notification suspension, as well as a tracking code possibly, for both parties benefits, twitter and the app. *Reason*: My app was suspended, for something perfectly harmless, and was re-granted permission the next day, but it took a few communications with twitter to resolve. This is only going to continue to become more and more frequent. I would hate to envision a team of a few people having to follow up on app suspensions w/o reference. On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Dewald Pretorius wrote: > The argument of, "Clearly defining rules helps the spammers because > then they know exactly how to stay just within the boundaries," holds > _absolutely no_ water. > > Imagine you own an ice rink. You draw a circle with a radius of 2 > meters on the ice, and make the rule that it's okay to skate inside > the circle, and not okay to skate outside the circle. > > If someone skates right at the edge, at 1.999 meters, all the time, it > _does not matter_ because you have decided that it is okay and > acceptable to skate there. > > The same goes with Twitter rules. Make the rules very granular and > very clear. Then, if someone skates just within the fringes, _it does > not matter_ because they are still within what you deem acceptable. > > And, then _everyone_ knows where is the line between good and bad > application behavior, because then it is a fence and not a broad gray > smudge. > > Most app developers are _not_ "the enemy" and most app developers will > be more than happy to not develop or to disable features that violate > the rules. > > If only we can understand the rules. > > On Feb 15, 12:04 am, PJB wrote: > > +1 to what Dewald says. > > > > We are purposely NOT developing certain features for fear that Twitter > > may suddenly change their rules once again. Is this the sort of > > business environment that Twitter wishes to foster? > > > > We had assumed that, at the very least, applications would be > > contacted before any sort of action on Twitter's behalf. But > > apparently not. And apparently this push for OAuth integration is > > simply a means to more easily cut-off access to certain apps. > > > > Ugly. > > > > On Feb 14, 4:30 pm, Dewald Pretorius wrote: > > > > > I attempted to make clear that my issue was not with the guilt or > > > innocence of GoTwitr. > > > > > It's with the message being sent to all of us when no communication > > > accompanies a suspension. > > > > > I'm going to beat the dead horse yet again. With vague and nebulous > > > rules, nobody knows for certain what is allowed and what is not. > > > > > Twitter invite people to build businesses using their system and API. > > > By providing the platform, extending the invitation, and making the > > > rules, they are also assuming a responsibility. > > > > > It is a grave concern that one's business can be terminated by Twitter > > > with no warning and no explanation, based on some rule that nobody > > > knows for certain exactly what it entails. It would have been a > > > slightly different situation had their rules been as clearly defined > > > as Facebook's rules, but they're not, with intention. > > > > > Take follower churn for example. Do I churn followers if I unfollow > > > ten people in a day, and follow five others? Or do I only churn if I > > > unfollow a hundred? Or is it two hundred? Or, wait, is the number > > > immaterial while my intention puts me in violation or not? If so, how > > > is my intention discerned? > > > > > Take duplicate content for example. If I tweet "Happy New Year!" every > > > January 1st, is that duplicate content? What about "Good morning > > > tweeps!" every morning? Will my personal and business accounts be > > > suspended if I tweet, "Can't wait for the iPad!" from the same IP > > > address at roughly the same time? What if I did what Guy Kawasaki > > > recommended athttp://bit.ly/jkSA1andtweeted the same text four > > > times a day, will my account be suspended? > > > > > These are question my users ask me, and I don't have an answer for > > > them. > > > > > On Feb 14, 6:51 pm, Tim Haines wrote: > > > > > > Dewald, > > > > > > Try looking in the google cache. I'm surprised it was allowed to > live for > > > > as long as it did. > http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:o2N2KuZsuYgJ:www.gotwitr.com/+go... > > > > > > It was basically a spam enabler. > > > > > > T. > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Dewald Pretorius > wrote: > > > > > I cannot comment on what Jim's site did or didn't do, since he has > > > > > pulled all descriptive information from the site. > > > > > > > Nevertheless, it is highly disturbing that applications are being > > > > > suspended without any notice. This particular site seems to have > had a > > > > > contact form, plus it was OAuth, so the owner could have been > > > > > contacted via the email address on file for the Twitter user that > owns > > > > > the application. > > > > > > > Yes, some apps do stuff
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
Yet TweetAdder and Hummingbird are still kicking around and active? ∞ Andy Badera ∞ +1 518-641-1280 Google Voice ∞ This email is: [ ] bloggable [x] ask first [ ] private ∞ Google me: http://www.google.com/search?q=andrew%20badera On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Tim Haines wrote: > Dewald, > Try looking in the google cache. I'm surprised it was allowed to live for > as long as it did. > http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:o2N2KuZsuYgJ:www.gotwitr.com/+gotwitr&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk > It was basically a spam enabler. > T. > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Dewald Pretorius wrote: >> >> I cannot comment on what Jim's site did or didn't do, since he has >> pulled all descriptive information from the site. >> >> Nevertheless, it is highly disturbing that applications are being >> suspended without any notice. This particular site seems to have had a >> contact form, plus it was OAuth, so the owner could have been >> contacted via the email address on file for the Twitter user that owns >> the application. >> >> Yes, some apps do stuff that warrant suspension. But, to just suspend >> an app with no communication is bad. >> >> If Twitter don't want to give some sites the opportunity to correct >> transgressive behavior (I know they do communicate in some cases), at >> the very least send an email to the owner with, "Your service has been >> suspended because...", and give a clear path and instructions on how >> the situation can be remedied as soon as possible. >> >> I'm going to say it again, Twitter: Your rules are vague and nebulous. >> Not everyone understands and interprets the rules the way you do >> internally. >> >> You must realize that actions like these sometimes shout so loud that >> we cannot hear when you say, "We care about our developers." >> >> Rightly or wrongly, here's a developer who has lost face with his user >> base, and has been in the dark for 4 days now. The message it sends to >> us, the other developers, is a very bad message. If you properly >> communicated with Jim, he probably wouldn't even have posted about it >> here. >> >> On Feb 14, 3:56 pm, Jim Fulford wrote: >> > Hello, I need some help. 4 days ago I started getting emails from my >> > users that they could not login to our site using the Oauth service. >> > I checked my site and it said my application had been suspended. I >> > did not get any email from Twitter, they just deactivated my >> > application so nothing works. I have sent in two support tickets, but >> > gotten no response. 2 days ago, I took my site downwww.gotwitr.com >> > so that I would stop getting support email from my users. >> > >> > I have had this site up for 5 months, and I have over 5000 users have >> > used the service. I am so glad that I have never charged for the >> > service, this would be a nightmare. >> > >> > If they would let me know what our site, or one of our users did to >> > get banned, we would be glad to fix it. We have tried to make our >> > site as Twitter API friendly as possible. >> > >> > We are 100% Oauth, we have never saved or requested any users >> > passwords. >> > We only let our users hit the Twitter API 1000 times in a 24 hour >> > period >> > We have all of our tools that follow or unfollow use individual user >> > verification, (no mass follow or unfollow) >> > >> > An email with the issue would have been great. >> > >> > Not getting a response in the last 4 days that my site has been down >> > is really not acceptable! >> > >> > Thanks > >
Re: [twitter-dev] Re: Application Suspended
Dewald, Try looking in the google cache. I'm surprised it was allowed to live for as long as it did. http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:o2N2KuZsuYgJ:www.gotwitr.com/+gotwitr&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk It was basically a spam enabler. T. On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Dewald Pretorius wrote: > I cannot comment on what Jim's site did or didn't do, since he has > pulled all descriptive information from the site. > > Nevertheless, it is highly disturbing that applications are being > suspended without any notice. This particular site seems to have had a > contact form, plus it was OAuth, so the owner could have been > contacted via the email address on file for the Twitter user that owns > the application. > > Yes, some apps do stuff that warrant suspension. But, to just suspend > an app with no communication is bad. > > If Twitter don't want to give some sites the opportunity to correct > transgressive behavior (I know they do communicate in some cases), at > the very least send an email to the owner with, "Your service has been > suspended because...", and give a clear path and instructions on how > the situation can be remedied as soon as possible. > > I'm going to say it again, Twitter: Your rules are vague and nebulous. > Not everyone understands and interprets the rules the way you do > internally. > > You must realize that actions like these sometimes shout so loud that > we cannot hear when you say, "We care about our developers." > > Rightly or wrongly, here's a developer who has lost face with his user > base, and has been in the dark for 4 days now. The message it sends to > us, the other developers, is a very bad message. If you properly > communicated with Jim, he probably wouldn't even have posted about it > here. > > On Feb 14, 3:56 pm, Jim Fulford wrote: > > Hello, I need some help. 4 days ago I started getting emails from my > > users that they could not login to our site using the Oauth service. > > I checked my site and it said my application had been suspended. I > > did not get any email from Twitter, they just deactivated my > > application so nothing works. I have sent in two support tickets, but > > gotten no response. 2 days ago, I took my site downwww.gotwitr.com > > so that I would stop getting support email from my users. > > > > I have had this site up for 5 months, and I have over 5000 users have > > used the service. I am so glad that I have never charged for the > > service, this would be a nightmare. > > > > If they would let me know what our site, or one of our users did to > > get banned, we would be glad to fix it. We have tried to make our > > site as Twitter API friendly as possible. > > > > We are 100% Oauth, we have never saved or requested any users > > passwords. > > We only let our users hit the Twitter API 1000 times in a 24 hour > > period > > We have all of our tools that follow or unfollow use individual user > > verification, (no mass follow or unfollow) > > > > An email with the issue would have been great. > > > > Not getting a response in the last 4 days that my site has been down > > is really not acceptable! > > > > Thanks >
