Re: [U2] Worst Case/Best Case

[Dawn Wolthuis]

HI Harold -- I'm confused. I don't even see a post from me in this
thread. What are you reading from me that has the word "proof" in it.
Did you mean "Wol" instead of "Dawn" below? Otherwise, could you
provide the quote from me? Thanks.  --dawn

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Oaks, Harold  wrote:
> Dawn:
>
> Where might we find the proof you speak of?  Is there a nice, tidy paper
> somewhere? The Mathematician in me is quite interested.  I would be
> overjoyed to show this to management.
>
> Thanks-
> Harold Oaks
> Clark County,WA
>
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Anthony W.
> Youngman
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 2:19 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: Re: [U2] Worst Case/Best Case
>
> In message <002a01ca37d4$03bc58b0$0b350a...@com>, Symeon Breen
>  writes
>>Just to pick up on one point - I am a .net developer but we use u2 as
>>the data store in a growing business with many new customers every
>>year. It is more a problem with peoples mindset than a problem with u2
>>technology itself, lets home rocket can tackle this head on.
>
> As I KEEP banging on, it's EASY to prove that U2 (and MV in general) is
> a far better database engine than an RDBMS, we just need to show that to
> management.
>
> "Efficiency" and "relational" are NOT compatible, and the maths to prove
> it is simple.
>
> Einstein's corollary to Occam - "make it as simple as possible, but no
> simpler" - relational is OVER simplified.
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
> --
> Anthony W. Youngman  'Yings, yow graley
> yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the thimble. 'What
> *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man lowered the
> thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998 Visit the
> MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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>
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>



-- 
Dawn M. Wolthuis

Take and give some delight today
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Re: [U2] [UV] @Variables in Paragraph

[Charles Stevenson]

Let me change the subject from Rocket for a sec.

It's always wise to listen when Mecki Foerhmann posts.  A couple days he 
made some good points  responding to something I'd written.  He said:

This reminds me of a guy I used to work with years ago.
cds:  See posts from July 8, 09 in u2-community for confessions of my 
misspent youth. I probably  mighta coulda been that guy's brother.  I'm 
more moderate now.  _Extremely_ moderate.

He tried to do everything in PROC,
cds:Proc & Paragraph are both primarily Job Control Languages.  To keep 
it simple I'll just talk PA.  Let's table PQ v. PA for another day.  PA 
or PQ, Mecki's point stands.

and it usually even worked, but everybody hated to work on his accounts.

cds: Maintainability is the foremost attribute of quality software.


Nothing against paragraphs, but why not use the right tool for the job?
After what do we have Basic for?
Just think of the poor programmer who'll have to try to figure out 
what your paragraphs are doing (or are supposed to be doing) when 
you're not around.
cds:  I'm using Mecki's comments as a jumping off point.  Please don't 
take any of this as a criticism of Mecki's practices.


Let's assume that Perry's question is a 'one-of'.  It is the 1st time 
it's ever occurred & probably won't come up again.  Then my general 
purpose utility is overkill.   I woudl use it in one of my systems where 
it is already heavilly deployed, but wouldn't introduce it here, just 
for this.


Keep in mind Mecki's admonition to use "the right tool for the right 
job".  PA is the JCL.


I suggest Perry write a very small basic program to handle this one 
stumbling block.  His (undoubtedly simplified) example:


  PA
  SELECT  FILENAME  WITH ...
  DISPLAY @SYSTEM.RETURN.CODE

becomes something like:
 
  PA

  SELECT  FILENAME  WITH ...
  RUN  BP  DISPLAY.AT.USER.RETURN.CODE

If the requirement is not just to display @USER.RETURN.CODE, but to be 
able to use it within the paragraph, then the program needs to load it 
into an inline prompt via ILPROMPT function.  See Barry Rogen's post, 
Mar 6, 09 for more on ILPROMPT.



What I object to (and what I too often see), is abandoning PA's job 
control as soon as there is a glitch.
Many programmers resort to letting Basic do job control, & EXECUTE as 
needed.
The same on the reporting side:  Let the query language do most of the 
work.  Do not write entire reports in Basic as soon as a complication 
arises, when a few I-descriptors or I-descriptor subroutines could solve 
the problem, leaving the report as a whole under the easily maintained & 
flexible query language's care.


Basic requires more lines of code, it is not as readable, not as 
changeable, not as maintainable as if when we let the Job Control &  
DB-Query languages do what they do best.


What do we have basic for?  When it comes to job control & db queries, 
reserve basic for the little glitches & complicated stuff, stepping in 
to do what vanilla PA & retrieVe can't, then bowing out.



Sometimes one finds oneself tackling the same tricky bit over & over, or 
variations on the theme.  At that point, it is time to introduce a 
generalized utility.  Perry might generalize the proposed 
DISPLAY.AR.USER.RETURN.CODE basic program to accept an argument of which 
@var to display.  He might catalogue it as a verb with the "K" processor 
code to keep the select list active.


In my case, I was finding a repeated desire to use the @variables in 
inline prompts for later use in the PA,  (a PA hole ever since PI 
days).  So I wrote ILPROMPT.DEF to load an inline prompt for use within 
the PA.  At it's core:

   DATA [something processed based on command line]
   DUMMY = ILPROMPT( "<<': [per commandline]: '>>' )
Then I made it a more robust by doing things like protecting the data 
stack & any active select list, preventing output to screen, etc..   
Utilities need to be robust.


The very same can be argued for general purpose I-descriptor subroutines.


Last, remember Mecki's admonition:
  
  "Just think of the poor programmer who'll have to try to figure out 
what your
   paragraphs are doing (or are supposed to be doing) when you're not 
around." 

Utilities MUST be well documented, standard, & commonly used so everyone 
knows what to expect.



Again, do not take any of this as criticism of anything Mecki wrote or 
an argment against anything he advocates. He just unwittingly offered me 
a soapbox.   I've never had the privilege of working with him, but based 
on what he's written here over the years, I know I would enjoy it if I 
ever could.



Now let's get back to fretting about Rocket Software.
Chuck
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Re: [U2] just a suggestion but ......

[Larry Hiscock]

Since this isn't "technically" a technical discussion (pun intended), we
should probably move it to the u2-community list.

Larry Hiscock
Moderator


-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Anthony W.
Youngman
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 2:31 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] just a suggestion but ..

In message <007001ca385a$857a7e50$906f7a...@com>, doug chanco 
 writes
>does anyone besides me think that a new list rocketU2 or something could be
>added to talk about rocket, so that this list can go back to being
>technical?  I certainly think that people need to vent/express their
opinion
>about rocket/where u2 is going, if its dying (or not),  etc .. but maybe
its
>time to move thoes discussuions over to the community list or create a new
>one specific to rocket/ the sale of U2
>
I don't think there's any point in a new list ...

I know we want (some of us at any rate) for this to be a technical list, 
but all this Rocket stuff is going to blow over fairly quickly. And imho 
it belongs on this list because it's stuff we NEED to know.

Give it till the deal is formally approved and Rocket start talking, and 
all these threads will be gone.

Cheers,
Wol
-- 
Anthony W. Youngman 
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source
Pick
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Re: [U2] Worst Case/Best Case

[Bessel, Karen]

I'm with you there, Harold. 

I don't agree that U2 is a match for any "real" RDBMS like SQL. It just
doesn't have the same capabilities. For example, referential integrity.
In SQL, it's there, it's built in, it's an integral part of the system
and you can't create "orphan records" if you set up your relationships
properly. In U2, you can do that too, with application programming -
lots and lots of programming, which can be (and often is) flawed. This
is just one example of WHY you can't compare U2 to other RDBMS on the
market - you're comparing pomegranates and pineapples, and when you are
done with your comparison, U2 comes up lacking. 

Don't get me wrong --- I love U2, and my career STARTed in a Pick shop.
I'm sorry to see where it's gone over the years.

Plus, to all the people out there who keep saying that it's us to list
members to convince our companies to stay with U2 instead of migrating
away, I say "Hogwash". In anything other than a small "mom & pop" shop,
programmers do not have ANY input into these kinds of decisions.
Management looks at a new and pretty system with lots of bells &
whistles, and they don't really care what platform is running on - "We
have to have it".










Karen Bessel
Software Developer

Tyler Technologies, Inc.
6500 International Parkway, Suite 2000
Plano, TX 75093
Phone: 972.713.3770 ext:6227
Fax: 972.713.3780 
Email: karen.bes...@tylertech.com
Web: http://www.tylertech.com


 
Tyler is proud to be the Platinum Sponsor of 
The Court Technology Conference 2009
Sept. 22-24, 2009 | Denver, CO
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Re: [U2] Worst Case/Best Case

[Oaks, Harold]

Dawn:

Where might we find the proof you speak of?  Is there a nice, tidy paper
somewhere? The Mathematician in me is quite interested.  I would be
overjoyed to show this to management.

Thanks-
Harold Oaks
Clark County,WA 

-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Anthony W.
Youngman
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 2:19 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Worst Case/Best Case

In message <002a01ca37d4$03bc58b0$0b350a...@com>, Symeon Breen
 writes
>Just to pick up on one point - I am a .net developer but we use u2 as 
>the data store in a growing business with many new customers every 
>year. It is more a problem with peoples mindset than a problem with u2 
>technology itself, lets home rocket can tackle this head on.

As I KEEP banging on, it's EASY to prove that U2 (and MV in general) is
a far better database engine than an RDBMS, we just need to show that to
management.

"Efficiency" and "relational" are NOT compatible, and the maths to prove
it is simple.

Einstein's corollary to Occam - "make it as simple as possible, but no
simpler" - relational is OVER simplified.

Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman  'Yings, yow graley
yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the thimble. 'What
*is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man lowered the
thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998 Visit the
MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: [U2] just a suggestion but ......

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message <007001ca385a$857a7e50$906f7a...@com>, doug chanco 
 writes

does anyone besides me think that a new list rocketU2 or something could be
added to talk about rocket, so that this list can go back to being
technical?  I certainly think that people need to vent/express their opinion
about rocket/where u2 is going, if its dying (or not),  etc .. but maybe its
time to move thoes discussuions over to the community list or create a new
one specific to rocket/ the sale of U2


I don't think there's any point in a new list ...

I know we want (some of us at any rate) for this to be a technical list, 
but all this Rocket stuff is going to blow over fairly quickly. And imho 
it belongs on this list because it's stuff we NEED to know.


Give it till the deal is formally approved and Rocket start talking, and 
all these threads will be gone.


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman 
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Lance J. Andersen]

Anthony W. Youngman wrote:
In message <25013-46...@sneakemail.com>, Tony Gravagno 
<3xk547...@sneakemail.com> writes

I'm not sure why you're emphasizing OLD.  The MV implementation
in Caché supports many versions of Pick plus the Prime nuances of
U2.


:-)


I believe one would find the level of thoroughness
corresponds to the size and value of the prospect audience - in
other words, Universe apps might migrate faster than any other.


jBase followed the Prime philosophy "INFORMATION is Pick done right". 
I *think* Jim came from Prime. And like I tried to do with MaVerick, 
Jim took the "done right" attitude. I'm not surprised he appears to 
have taken a lot from Prime.
I do not recall Jim working as part of the Prime INFORMATION team (which 
I was part of) at Prime while I was there .  I worked there from 
1983-1993 and was one of the original PI vars, Standard Data Systems 
prior to joining Prime.  Perhaps he was there before at Prime or 
Devcom.  Clif was Jim part of the group at Devcom with John Drumheller?


-Lance


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Glen Batchelor]

   Nope. I never suggested any of that. Please pick specific facts and
counter them.


Glen Batchelor
IT Director
All-Spec Industries
 phone: (910) 332-0424
   fax: (910) 763-5664
E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com
   Web: http://www.all-spec.com
  Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com


> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 4:37 PM
> To: 'U2 Users List'
> Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
> 
> " ground-breaking iPod"
> 
> 
> You have succumbed to apple marketing, people think they invented the gui
> or
> windows - both wrong - people now think they invented mp3 players - i
> still
> have a tiny 256meg mpg player with an oled screen that i bought a couple
> of
> years before apple entered with the ipod. I have met people who think the
> iphone is the first ever phone with a proper web browser - in fact the
> advert in the uk hinted at this, and was subsequently banned for being
> inaccurate.
> 
> 
> Apple are one of my gripes they invent nothing but marketing !
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glen Batchelor
> Sent: 17 September 2009 22:50
> To: 'U2 Users List'
> Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
> 
> 
>  The iPhone was a progression of proprietary touch technology and combined
> supporting technologies and software (stemming from the original
> ground-breaking iPod through to the iTouch/iPhone) that did not exist with
> other mobile multi-media or cellular phone products. Other makers have
> been
> trying to catch up with their versions of Apple's mobile products, but
> they're just not in the same league. It wasn't _just_ marketing that has
> made iPhone popular. The overall design and execution of the technology
> progression was planned very well. Can you say the same for any MV
> database?
> Apple has had a long-term (and huge) client following for many of their
> hardware devices and software applications. Many facets of the iPhone
> including interface design and app design and deployment venues
> contributed
> to the fast growth. It's not just a smart phone with web toys on it. It's
> a
> business sales channel with access to many markets. It will change the way
> business is being done, even more so than the Palm and Blackberry.
> 
>  Suggesting that marketing can help U2 grow the way the iPhone has is just
> absurd. Sure, we need marketing help in general but what has been said
> before is still true; people don't buy databases, they buy solutions. The
> iPhone is a solution (which runs SQLite for the apps BTW). Write an
> application for the iPhone that talks to U2 and sell it if you want to
> broaden the horizon. I have a few ideas of my own, but I'm not paying $800
> for a used MacBook just to try a market idea out. :) I got twin toddlers
> to
> feed and bills to pay!!
> 
> 
> Glen Batchelor
> IT Director
> All-Spec Industries
>  phone: (910) 332-0424
>fax: (910) 763-5664
> E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com
>Web: http://www.all-spec.com
>   Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> > boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Chanco
> > Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:14 PM
> > To: U2 Users List
> > Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
> >
> > Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two
> > down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2?
> >
> > They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2
> >
> > Dougc
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Frank
> > Eperjesi
> > Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:53 PM
> > To: U2 Users List
> > Subject: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
> >
> > Not to knock Rocket (Especially now that I guess I am be a dealer of
> > there).  Also I have no history with them
> >
> > A lot of what all you say as to U2 not evolving enough is true, but part
> > of the reason for that and problems in the D3, U2 or mult-value world in
> > general is that almost all the current multi-value providers are doing
> > one or more of these things .:
> >
> > 1) Either living off the bones of their installed base and/or swooping
> > in to feed off of whoever is still running D3 and its flavors, but doing
> > nothing to attract new users.  IBM falls into the 2nd category.
> >
> > 2) Jbase (& I think Cache) are successful application software companies
> > that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to
> > save 

Re: [U2] Worst Case/Best Case

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message <002a01ca37d4$03bc58b0$0b350a...@com>, Symeon Breen 
 writes

Just to pick up on one point - I am a .net developer but we use u2 as the
data store in a growing business with many new customers every year. It is
more a problem with peoples mindset than a problem with u2 technology
itself, lets home rocket can tackle this head on.


As I KEEP banging on, it's EASY to prove that U2 (and MV in general) is 
a far better database engine than an RDBMS, we just need to show that to 
management.


"Efficiency" and "relational" are NOT compatible, and the maths to prove 
it is simple.


Einstein's corollary to Occam - "make it as simple as possible, but no 
simpler" - relational is OVER simplified.


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman 
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message <25013-46...@sneakemail.com>, Tony Gravagno 
<3xk547...@sneakemail.com> writes

I'm not sure why you're emphasizing OLD.  The MV implementation
in Caché supports many versions of Pick plus the Prime nuances of
U2.


:-)


I believe one would find the level of thoroughness
corresponds to the size and value of the prospect audience - in
other words, Universe apps might migrate faster than any other.


jBase followed the Prime philosophy "INFORMATION is Pick done right". I 
*think* Jim came from Prime. And like I tried to do with MaVerick, Jim 
took the "done right" attitude. I'm not surprised he appears to have 
taken a lot from Prime.


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman 
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message 
<8b8d8a92acaa5b45986c590ff22600ce023ea...@bai-sbs.baisbs.local>, Frank 
Eperjesi  writes
Not sure what the purpose of your email was, but please stick to 
facts


I don't mean to be rude, but it would help if you did a little 
investigation about your "facts" too.


1) I did not say I knew Cache was a MV application.  I indicated I was 
not sure (see below) However, I did go to their web site and they say 
they are/were a high level "Application" provider for various medical 
record applications. It appears that is their major source of income.



It isn't. It has an MV compatibility layer.

Not sure why they developed Cache but it appears to be related heavily 
to te support their core application products (that make the big 
bucks).  If their old core product was not MV they are just another 
company who has decided to feed off the old MV installed base.  That is 
not necessary a bad thing, they may be a very good alternative, but it 
is what it is


Cache == MUMPS (which is contemporaneous with Pick, ie it first appeared 
in the 60s). Just as Pick Systems has morphed into Tiger Logic, but the 
basic Pick product still remains, so has MUMPS morphed into Cache, but 
it's still basically the same thing.


http://www.intersystems.com/healthshare/index.html


P.S. In support of an older Pick client or ours that wanted to migrate 
to it, we are currently doing a conversion for that client to it.  The 
conversion seems fairly easy and trouble free from an OLD version of 
Pick.




2) Jbase representatives when they originally approached me many, many, 
many years ago pretty much described the relationship between Temenos 
and Jbase just as I described it. The conglomerate that bought Jbase 
did so to insure that they had a platform that could run Temenos 
applications.  This included IBM platforms not supported by Pick or 
whoever.


Jbase did exist before they were bought out and does still exist. 
However it is a tool for corporate to save the value of their core 
Temenos applications that produces most of their income and allow their 
core application to run on huge IBM and other platforms that their Bank 
clients were insisting on.  As a data base it is lunch money to corporate.


P.S. It appears to be nice product with a lot of great features (I have 
no conversion experience) However, it is what it is.


jBase presumably is a nice product (I have no experience of it). And as 
I said, the Cache MV layer was written by Jim Idle, co-author of 
jBase...


Frank E. Eperjesi
Vice President
Business Automation, Inc.
(714) 998-6600 phone (714) 998-6170 Fax


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman 
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message 
<8b8d8a92acaa5b45986c590ff22600ce023ea...@bai-sbs.baisbs.local>, Frank 
Eperjesi  writes

Not to knock Rocket (Especially now that I guess I am be a dealer of
there).  Also I have no history with them

A lot of what all you say as to U2 not evolving enough is true, but part
of the reason for that and problems in the D3, U2 or mult-value world in
general is that almost all the current multi-value providers are doing
one or more of these things .:

1) Either living off the bones of their installed base and/or swooping
in to feed off of whoever is still running D3 and its flavors, but doing
nothing to attract new users.  IBM falls into the 2nd category.

2) Jbase (& I think Cache) are successful application software companies
that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to
save their investment.  I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache
has some nice new features.


Just to niggle (a BIG niggle), what you say of Cache might be true, but 
it's NOT true of jBase.


jBase was written - like INFORMATION - to be a "MV done right", for 
whatever value the people involved thought was "right".


Cache is the old MUMPS, and actually hired one of the people who wrote 
jBase (Jim Idle) to write their MV personality.


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman 
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Marc Harbeson]

You got to admit, they are good at whatever it is they do...   LOL  

-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 4:37 PM
To: 'U2 Users List'
Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

" ground-breaking iPod"


You have succumbed to apple marketing, people think they invented the
gui or
windows - both wrong - people now think they invented mp3 players - i
still
have a tiny 256meg mpg player with an oled screen that i bought a couple
of
years before apple entered with the ipod. I have met people who think
the
iphone is the first ever phone with a proper web browser - in fact the
advert in the uk hinted at this, and was subsequently banned for being
inaccurate.


Apple are one of my gripes they invent nothing but marketing !


 
-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glen
Batchelor
Sent: 17 September 2009 22:50
To: 'U2 Users List'
Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general


 The iPhone was a progression of proprietary touch technology and
combined
supporting technologies and software (stemming from the original
ground-breaking iPod through to the iTouch/iPhone) that did not exist
with
other mobile multi-media or cellular phone products. Other makers have
been
trying to catch up with their versions of Apple's mobile products, but
they're just not in the same league. It wasn't _just_ marketing that has
made iPhone popular. The overall design and execution of the technology
progression was planned very well. Can you say the same for any MV
database?
Apple has had a long-term (and huge) client following for many of their
hardware devices and software applications. Many facets of the iPhone
including interface design and app design and deployment venues
contributed
to the fast growth. It's not just a smart phone with web toys on it.
It's a
business sales channel with access to many markets. It will change the
way
business is being done, even more so than the Palm and Blackberry.

 Suggesting that marketing can help U2 grow the way the iPhone has is
just
absurd. Sure, we need marketing help in general but what has been said
before is still true; people don't buy databases, they buy solutions.
The
iPhone is a solution (which runs SQLite for the apps BTW). Write an
application for the iPhone that talks to U2 and sell it if you want to
broaden the horizon. I have a few ideas of my own, but I'm not paying
$800
for a used MacBook just to try a market idea out. :) I got twin toddlers
to
feed and bills to pay!!


Glen Batchelor
IT Director
All-Spec Industries
 phone: (910) 332-0424
   fax: (910) 763-5664
E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com
   Web: http://www.all-spec.com
  Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com


> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Chanco
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:14 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
> 
> Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two
> down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2?
> 
> They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2
> 
> Dougc
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Frank
> Eperjesi
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:53 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
> 
> Not to knock Rocket (Especially now that I guess I am be a dealer of
> there).  Also I have no history with them
> 
> A lot of what all you say as to U2 not evolving enough is true, but
part
> of the reason for that and problems in the D3, U2 or mult-value world
in
> general is that almost all the current multi-value providers are doing
> one or more of these things .:
> 
> 1) Either living off the bones of their installed base and/or swooping
> in to feed off of whoever is still running D3 and its flavors, but
doing
> nothing to attract new users.  IBM falls into the 2nd category.
> 
> 2) Jbase (& I think Cache) are successful application software
companies
> that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to
> save their investment.  I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but
Cache
> has some nice new features.
> 
> 
> My company (BAI) is one of the dwindling software providers still
> bringing in "fresh meat" to the table.
> 
> Up to now just saying U2 was part of IBM made a HUGE difference.  The
> original Unidata name was not a good as saying we were an IBM database
> but their name and support material were very good.
> 
> As good a Rocket may be, not sure saying we are running on a data base
> from a compa

Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Larry Hiscock]

AMEN!  (but I still love my iPhone :-/)

-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 1:37 PM
To: 'U2 Users List'
Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

" ground-breaking iPod"


You have succumbed to apple marketing, people think they invented the gui or
windows - both wrong - people now think they invented mp3 players - i still
have a tiny 256meg mpg player with an oled screen that i bought a couple of
years before apple entered with the ipod. I have met people who think the
iphone is the first ever phone with a proper web browser - in fact the
advert in the uk hinted at this, and was subsequently banned for being
inaccurate.


Apple are one of my gripes they invent nothing but marketing !


 
-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glen Batchelor
Sent: 17 September 2009 22:50
To: 'U2 Users List'
Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general


 The iPhone was a progression of proprietary touch technology and combined
supporting technologies and software (stemming from the original
ground-breaking iPod through to the iTouch/iPhone) that did not exist with
other mobile multi-media or cellular phone products. Other makers have been
trying to catch up with their versions of Apple's mobile products, but
they're just not in the same league. It wasn't _just_ marketing that has
made iPhone popular. The overall design and execution of the technology
progression was planned very well. Can you say the same for any MV database?
Apple has had a long-term (and huge) client following for many of their
hardware devices and software applications. Many facets of the iPhone
including interface design and app design and deployment venues contributed
to the fast growth. It's not just a smart phone with web toys on it. It's a
business sales channel with access to many markets. It will change the way
business is being done, even more so than the Palm and Blackberry.

 Suggesting that marketing can help U2 grow the way the iPhone has is just
absurd. Sure, we need marketing help in general but what has been said
before is still true; people don't buy databases, they buy solutions. The
iPhone is a solution (which runs SQLite for the apps BTW). Write an
application for the iPhone that talks to U2 and sell it if you want to
broaden the horizon. I have a few ideas of my own, but I'm not paying $800
for a used MacBook just to try a market idea out. :) I got twin toddlers to
feed and bills to pay!!


Glen Batchelor
IT Director
All-Spec Industries
 phone: (910) 332-0424
   fax: (910) 763-5664
E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com
   Web: http://www.all-spec.com
  Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com


> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Chanco
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:14 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
> 
> Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two
> down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2?
> 
> They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2
> 
> Dougc
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Frank
> Eperjesi
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:53 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
> 
> Not to knock Rocket (Especially now that I guess I am be a dealer of
> there).  Also I have no history with them
> 
> A lot of what all you say as to U2 not evolving enough is true, but part
> of the reason for that and problems in the D3, U2 or mult-value world in
> general is that almost all the current multi-value providers are doing
> one or more of these things .:
> 
> 1) Either living off the bones of their installed base and/or swooping
> in to feed off of whoever is still running D3 and its flavors, but doing
> nothing to attract new users.  IBM falls into the 2nd category.
> 
> 2) Jbase (& I think Cache) are successful application software companies
> that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to
> save their investment.  I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache
> has some nice new features.
> 
> 
> My company (BAI) is one of the dwindling software providers still
> bringing in "fresh meat" to the table.
> 
> Up to now just saying U2 was part of IBM made a HUGE difference.  The
> original Unidata name was not a good as saying we were an IBM database
> but their name and support material were very good.
> 
> As good a Rocket may be, not sure saying we are running on a data base
> from a company called "rocketsoftware" wi

Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Symeon Breen]

" ground-breaking iPod"


You have succumbed to apple marketing, people think they invented the gui or
windows - both wrong - people now think they invented mp3 players - i still
have a tiny 256meg mpg player with an oled screen that i bought a couple of
years before apple entered with the ipod. I have met people who think the
iphone is the first ever phone with a proper web browser - in fact the
advert in the uk hinted at this, and was subsequently banned for being
inaccurate.


Apple are one of my gripes they invent nothing but marketing !


 
-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glen Batchelor
Sent: 17 September 2009 22:50
To: 'U2 Users List'
Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general


 The iPhone was a progression of proprietary touch technology and combined
supporting technologies and software (stemming from the original
ground-breaking iPod through to the iTouch/iPhone) that did not exist with
other mobile multi-media or cellular phone products. Other makers have been
trying to catch up with their versions of Apple's mobile products, but
they're just not in the same league. It wasn't _just_ marketing that has
made iPhone popular. The overall design and execution of the technology
progression was planned very well. Can you say the same for any MV database?
Apple has had a long-term (and huge) client following for many of their
hardware devices and software applications. Many facets of the iPhone
including interface design and app design and deployment venues contributed
to the fast growth. It's not just a smart phone with web toys on it. It's a
business sales channel with access to many markets. It will change the way
business is being done, even more so than the Palm and Blackberry.

 Suggesting that marketing can help U2 grow the way the iPhone has is just
absurd. Sure, we need marketing help in general but what has been said
before is still true; people don't buy databases, they buy solutions. The
iPhone is a solution (which runs SQLite for the apps BTW). Write an
application for the iPhone that talks to U2 and sell it if you want to
broaden the horizon. I have a few ideas of my own, but I'm not paying $800
for a used MacBook just to try a market idea out. :) I got twin toddlers to
feed and bills to pay!!


Glen Batchelor
IT Director
All-Spec Industries
 phone: (910) 332-0424
   fax: (910) 763-5664
E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com
   Web: http://www.all-spec.com
  Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com


> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Chanco
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:14 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
> 
> Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a release or two
> down the line we'll have customers standing in line to buy U2?
> 
> They did it with iPhone so I'm sure they can do it with U2
> 
> Dougc
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Frank
> Eperjesi
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:53 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general
> 
> Not to knock Rocket (Especially now that I guess I am be a dealer of
> there).  Also I have no history with them
> 
> A lot of what all you say as to U2 not evolving enough is true, but part
> of the reason for that and problems in the D3, U2 or mult-value world in
> general is that almost all the current multi-value providers are doing
> one or more of these things .:
> 
> 1) Either living off the bones of their installed base and/or swooping
> in to feed off of whoever is still running D3 and its flavors, but doing
> nothing to attract new users.  IBM falls into the 2nd category.
> 
> 2) Jbase (& I think Cache) are successful application software companies
> that basically created their own version of Multi-value to migrate to
> save their investment.  I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but Cache
> has some nice new features.
> 
> 
> My company (BAI) is one of the dwindling software providers still
> bringing in "fresh meat" to the table.
> 
> Up to now just saying U2 was part of IBM made a HUGE difference.  The
> original Unidata name was not a good as saying we were an IBM database
> but their name and support material were very good.
> 
> As good a Rocket may be, not sure saying we are running on a data base
> from a company called "rocketsoftware" will be any help in selling to
> our prospect base.
> 
> Unlike IBM we will have to sell RocketSoftware viability as well as our
> applications.
> 
> Unless Rocket comes up with a super marketing effort, things just got a
> lot harder for us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank E. Eperjesi
> Vice President
>

Re: [U2] Posted on Behalf of Susie Seigesmund

[Charles Stevenson]

I gotta admit it's fun watching Susie juggle all this with her new boss 
keeping quiet.


Rock on, Susie. 

Oh dear,  I feel another music pun coming on.  Something about Rockettes 
to join Rocketman & U2.  While we're a it let's ditch the U2UG Toucan 
for Buzz Lightyear, Master of the Univese.




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Re: [U2] just a suggestion but ......

[Charles Stevenson]

I don't get it.  Rocket is legally bound to say nothing,  but the CEO is 
at U2 University. Silently?  Oh, wait, no.  He shared the keynote 
address and shared his vision with the attendees, . . .  which  would  
be  .  .  .  :   _?


Hang in there , Chuck.

Chuck


John,
  I'm working on talking them into exactly that.
  - Chuck

Israel, John R. wrote:

I agree.
I am also a little disappointed that nobody from Rocket has chimed in 
to this group.  I know they may not be able to say anything 
officially, but they ought to say SOMETHING!!!

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Re: [U2] just a suggestion but ......

[Results]

John,
  I'm working on talking them into exactly that.

  - Chuck

Israel, John R. wrote:

I agree.

I am also a little disappointed that nobody from Rocket has chimed in to this 
group.  I know they may not be able to say anything officially, but they ought 
to say SOMETHING!!!


John Israel
Senior Programmer/Analyst
Dayton Superior Corporation
721 Richard St.
Miamisburg, OH  45342
937-866-0711 x44380

-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of doug chanco
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 8:21 AM
To: 'U2 Users List'
Subject: [U2] just a suggestion but ..

does anyone besides me think that a new list rocketU2 or something could be
added to talk about rocket, so that this list can go back to being
technical?  I certainly think that people need to vent/express their opinion
about rocket/where u2 is going, if its dying (or not),  etc .. but maybe its
time to move thoes discussuions over to the community list or create a new
one specific to rocket/ the sale of U2

 


just a thought

 


dougc

 


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[U2] Posted on Behalf of Susie Seigesmund

[Results]

Dear IBM U2 Database and Tools Valued Customer,

It’s three days post announcement, and my email is so full that I am 
sending this letter rather than trying to respond to each one individually.


First, thanks for the many congratulatory messages. However, some of you 
are expressing concern about the future of the U2 products under Rocket 
Software. Let me reassure you that our plan, and Rocket’s Plan, is to 
grow this business. Historically, IBM was committed to the U2 Products, 
and to the growth of the business. But the shift from Data Management to 
Information Management and the new focus on selling an entire stack of 
SQL-based products into large enterprises changed this. The shift began 
to impact the U2 business over the past eighteen months, with reduced 
marketing and sales resources. This led to our decision that separation 
from IBM was the best way to ensure the future health of the U2 
business. While IBM continued to deliver new releases of our products 
rich with new features, under Rocket we plan to increase and accelerate 
our investment in these products. Our commitment to continual 
improvement of both the quality and consumability of our products is 
shared by Rocket. The entire U2 business, including all of the 
employees, is moving to Rocket, and I will manage it as a separate 
business unit. We intend to improve our responsiveness to your business 
needs.


The plan for this move began early this year. We talked with many 
entities who were interested in purchasing us. We worked hard to find 
the right partner – one who also believed in the growth potential of 
this business – and Rocket is that partner. While IBM obviously wanted 
to get the highest price, they were equally concerned to find a partner 
who would focus on your future success. Rocket shares IBM’s focus on 
quality and has been a trusted IBM business partner for 15 years. The 
timing of U2 University influenced the schedule for signing and 
announcing. We wanted the opportunity to address some of our customer 
concerns and talk with you personally. Andy Youniss, President and CEO 
of Rocket, shared the keynote address, and shared his vision with the 
attendees. He promised that all of you will hear from him once the deal 
closes. As in all transactions of this kind, Rocket is not able to 
contact you directly until that time. If the FTC grants early review, 
this deal is expected to close September 30.


Thank you for being our customers. We tell people we have the best 
products, the best people and the best partners and customers - because 
it’s true!



Sincerely,


Susie Siegesmund

Director, IBM U2 Data Servers and Tools

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Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Tony Gravagno]

> From: Frank Eperjesi
> Not sure what the purpose of your email was,

It sounds like you're wondering if I derive income or other
benefits from any of the MV DBMS providers about which I comment.
The answer is no.  I run eight MV platforms here on a daily basis
(plus others infrequently, plus relational), so I am a bit more
linked in to what's happening around this market than many, and I
hope my experience serves to help others.  As a programmer, I
enjoy accuracy.  As a member of this community I don't care which
MV vendor "wins" but I do try to make sure everyone (including
myself) has the right information on which to base decisions so
that we can continue to do business effectively and profitably
into the future - and I'm not shy when I think one company does
things better than another.  A well informed community is a
healthy community, and since this is where I make my living I try
to help keep accurate information flowing.  That's the purpose of
my posting.  HTH


> but please stick to facts

You did say "Jbase (& I think Cache) are successful application
software companies that basically created their own version of
Multi-value to migrate to save their investment."   The part of
the statement beginning with "that basically" is incorrect.  The
MV integration with Caché does not exist to save any other
investment.  You have conveyed a simple misperception and my
purpose was to "stick to the facts" to help keep that from
propagating as a fact.


> 1) I did not say I knew Cache was a MV application.  I 
> indicated I was not sure (see below) However, I did go 
> to their web site and they say they are/were a high 
> level "Application" provider for various medical 
> record applications. It appears that is their major 
> source of income.
> 
> Not sure why they developed Cache but it appears to be 
> related heavily to te support their core application 
> products (that make the big bucks).


You have the order confused - they had the database first and
fairly recently they decided to enter the application market with
an application (non MV) that another company developeded over
their platform.  It's similar to IBM with DataStage, SB+, JET,
and wIntegrate.


> If their old core product was not MV they are just 
> another company who has decided to feed off the old MV 
> installed base.  That is not necessary a bad thing, 
> they may be a very good alternative, but it is what it 
> is
> http://www.intersystems.com/healthshare/index.html

Your link to Healthshare is not related to their MV initiative.
This is the non-link that I was trying to fix.

Rocket buys U2 and some consider it a good thing because it's an
intentional choice (U2 not acquired as part of some other
purchase).  InterSystems did the same.  This is very simple -
InterSystems is a company that is already familiar with databases
and they made an investment in this market.  It has always seemed
to me that they see value in the applications and related
channel, so they created a bridge to their platform and a market
that has similar applications and a similar channel.  I consider
this to be good for MV as they seem to be a better business
partner than any other DBMS vendor in this market.  Of course
they stand to profit if you sell your applications on their
platform, but so do you.  That seems very symbiotic, hardly a
feeding scenario.

One point that most people miss - the MV features in Caché are
now available to a large community of Caché user/developers - the
size of the "MV" market may have doubled when InterSystems
entered this market.  When a lot of people on this side of the
market are looking to retrain into new and unknown areas, there
are (can be / will be if cultivated) untapped opportunities in
the Caché community for MV developers.


> P.S. In support of an older Pick client or ours that 
> wanted to migrate to it, we are currently doing a 
> conversion for that client to it.  The conversion  
> seems fairly easy and trouble free from an OLD version 
> of Pick.

I'm not sure why you're emphasizing OLD.  The MV implementation
in Caché supports many versions of Pick plus the Prime nuances of
U2.  I believe one would find the level of thoroughness
corresponds to the size and value of the prospect audience - in
other words, Universe apps might migrate faster than any other.


> 2) Jbase representatives when they originally 
> approached me many, many, many years ago pretty much 
> described the relationship between Temenos and Jbase 
> just as I described it. The conglomerate that bought 
> Jbase did so to insure that they had a platform that 
> could run Temenos applications. This included IBM 
> platforms not supported by Pick or whoever.
> 
> Jbase did exist before they were bought out and does 
> still exist.  However it is a tool for corporate to 
> save the value of their core Temenos applications that 
> produces most of their income and allow their core 
> application to run on huge IBM and other platforms 
> tha

Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Lance J. Andersen]

I should point out, that the comment I was referring to was not from 
Dawn, I just did a bad cut trying to streamline the message.  Sorry Dawn.




Lance J. Andersen wrote:



Dawn Wolthuis wrote:

The one statement below that isn't the way I would say it at all is

 


What I like about Cache is that is provides competition in the 
Multivalue market.  If Oracle had the same level of competitive 
providers as the mv world has, they would not have got away with 
their price tag for so long.

I have to disagree with this statement.   There are many RDMS 
providers out there with very large revenue streams.  And if you count 
Open Source implementations such as MySQL or PostgreSQL you have quite 
a large playing field (and there are other Open Source RDBMs, just 
MySQL and PostgreSQL have the lion's share).


The revenue generated from  the MV databases has never come close to 
Oracle, Sybase, DB2, MS SQL Server.  There are many reasons for this, 
but to say that MV market has more competitive providers is not true 
and certainly the revenue has never come close to the traditional 
RDBMs products.

David Jordan
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Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Lance J. Andersen]

Dawn Wolthuis wrote:

The one statement below that isn't the way I would say it at all is

  


What I like about Cache is that is provides competition in the Multivalue 
market.  If Oracle had the same level of competitive providers as the mv world 
has, they would not have got away with their price tag for so long.

I have to disagree with this statement.   There are many RDMS providers 
out there with very large revenue streams.  And if you count Open Source 
implementations such as MySQL or PostgreSQL you have quite a large 
playing field (and there are other Open Source RDBMs, just MySQL and 
PostgreSQL have the lion's share).


The revenue generated from  the MV databases has never come close to 
Oracle, Sybase, DB2, MS SQL Server.  There are many reasons for this, 
but to say that MV market has more competitive providers is not true and 
certainly the revenue has never come close to the traditional RDBMs 
products.

David Jordan
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Re: [U2] Why we haven't heard from Rocket

[Kevin King]

Of course, it didn't help matters that the rudder of that battleship had
been welded in place by lawyers...
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Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Dawn Wolthuis]

The one statement below that isn't the way I would say it at all is

"As cache was already multivalue, they added the PICK flavor to their
flavors just like flavors on UniVerse."

Their native data model is broader than MV, so they (Jim Idle of jBASE
and many others) wrote MV to sit on top of the MUMPS model. They have
a full implementation of the MV model, including MVBASIC and query
language, so that applications can be migrated quite handily (they
provide considerable assistance) and maintained that way. They have
the best and best performing SQL implementation against MV of any MV
platform, I'm pretty sure.

They also enhanced MVBASIC for objects so you can do such things as
server-side DOM manipulation, with the web page as an object, for
example. You can then also treat files as classes and records as
objects.

But MV was not added as another flavor of MUMPS, but as another data
model and associated languages supported within their database engine.
That's how I see it, at least.   --dawn

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:39 AM, David Jordan  wrote:
>
> Cache has evolved from the old Mumps environment.  This was a 
> multidimensional flavor similar to PICK.  Intersystems bought out all the 
> flavours of mumps to form the company today.  Mumps background was largely in 
> health, so they are a major player in that industry.  However they have a 
> range of markets and are OEM as much as U2 is.  I came upon cache being used 
> for backing up student work at a private school, so it has a range of 
> clients.  As cache was already multivalue, they added the PICK flavor to 
> their flavors just like flavors on UniVerse.
>
> What I like about Cache is that is provides competition in the Multivalue 
> market.  If Oracle had the same level of competitive providers as the mv 
> world has, they would not have got away with their price tag for so long.
>
> David Jordan
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-- 
Dawn M. Wolthuis

Take and give some delight today
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Re: [U2] just a suggestion but ......

[David Wolverton]

The CEO of Rocket was here at the U2 Uniersity... You should have been here!

I think it's a good move from the mouths of the IBMers here -- but we have a
habit of watching for falling sky in our goup - we did the same thing when
IBM bought Informix, remember?? 

> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of 
> Israel, John R.
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 7:30 AM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] just a suggestion but ..
> 
> I agree.
> 
> I am also a little disappointed that nobody from Rocket has 
> chimed in to this group.  I know they may not be able to say 
> anything officially, but they ought to say SOMETHING!!!
> 
> 
> John Israel
> Senior Programmer/Analyst
> Dayton Superior Corporation
> 721 Richard St.
> Miamisburg, OH  45342
> 937-866-0711 x44380
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of doug chanco
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 8:21 AM
> To: 'U2 Users List'
> Subject: [U2] just a suggestion but ..
> 
> does anyone besides me think that a new list rocketU2 or 
> something could be added to talk about rocket, so that this 
> list can go back to being technical?  I certainly think that 
> people need to vent/express their opinion about rocket/where 
> u2 is going, if its dying (or not),  etc .. but maybe its 
> time to move thoes discussuions over to the community list or 
> create a new one specific to rocket/ the sale of U2
> 
>  
> 
> just a thought
> 
>  
> 
> dougc
> 
>  
> 
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Re: [U2] Z_xxxxxxx not created

[Kevin King]

Just verified there's plenty of space on the drive - 220G.  Not likely any
transient space issues.  Client assures me the directory is "wide open",
though of course I can't verify that.
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Re: [U2] Why we haven't heard from Rocket

[Dawn Wolthuis]

I was guessing that was the case. In that case, I am impressed with
the information they did put out there regarding how they have worked
with other products to give the U2 community hints that they should
not be freaking out. The fact that you, Susie and others seem pleased
with this move should give the community some satisfaction and hope
for the future of the product. Unfortunately, the IBM name was a huge
draw for some, but the flip side of that is that it is much easier
(and probably more fun) to move a canoe than a battleship.   --dawn

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Stephen O'Neal  wrote:
> Susie just informed me that Rocket cannot respond publically until the
> transaction is approved by the FTC and the deal is consummated.
>
>   Steve O'Neal
>   Services Sales Leader for U2 in North America,        Information
> Management Lab Services,        IBM Software Group
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-- 
Dawn M. Wolthuis

Take and give some delight today
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Re: [U2] Why we haven't heard from Rocket

[George Gallen]

consummated.H.Choice word? I hope it's not the users that get 
consummated!

> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Stephen O'Neal
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 9:40 AM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: [U2] Why we haven't heard from Rocket
>
> Susie just informed me that Rocket cannot respond publically until the
> transaction is approved by the FTC and the deal is consummated.
>
>Steve O'Neal
>Services Sales Leader for U2 in North America,Information
> Management Lab Services,IBM Software Group
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[U2] Why we haven't heard from Rocket

[Stephen O'Neal]

Susie just informed me that Rocket cannot respond publically until the 
transaction is approved by the FTC and the deal is consummated.

   Steve O'Neal
   Services Sales Leader for U2 in North America,Information 
Management Lab Services,IBM Software Group
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Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Robert Porter]

Just to add a bit as I have done some development in Cache'...
 
Cache' is the from MUMPS lineage... MUMPS to OpenM to Cache'...  and does have 
pretty decent MV support. It has a steep learning curve (but has decent free 
e-learning and a free downloadable version), but has support for just about any 
language and development environment you can think of... You can run terminal 
sessions, Cache' server pages (.csp),as a SQL server, from Java with JDBC, .Net 
with managed objects, ODBC,  a couple of scripting languages, as web services, 
"MVBasic", procs, etc.  
 
I would recommend checking the http://www.intersystems.com/mv/index.html  page 
... some very good resources there for us MV people.
 
Also see chapter 3 on the tech guide 
http://www.intersystems.com/cache/technology/techguide/cache_tech-guide_03.html#12
 
 
Oh, they are also are very VAR oriented, which for many of us is a plus.  If 
you haven't checked out Cache' yet and are worried about getting your future, 
it wouldn't hurt to download and start playing. I do warn you that because it 
has so many options on how to get to your data, it can be a bit overwhelming 
with wondering what t do first.  The e-learning is very good, and looking at 
the various options, I'd pick one and concentrate on that then venture out into 
others. Personally I love .Net (C#) and using Cache' Managed Objects and much 
of what I learned translated well into Entity Framework.
 
Rob
 
 
Robert F. Porter, MCSE, CCNA, ZCE
Lead Sr. Programmer / Analyst
Laboratory Information Services
Ochsner Health System
 
 
 
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>>> "Frank Eperjesi" frank_eperj...@baipro.com> 9/18/2009 2:46 AM >> ( 
>>> mailto:frank_eperj...@baipro.com> )
...

1) I did not say I knew Cache was a MV application.  I indicated I was not sure 
(see below) However, I did go to their web site and they say they are/were a 
high level "Application" provider for various medical record applications. It 
appears that is their major source of income.
...
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Re: [U2] What Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Kevin King]

Preach it, brother! ;-)
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Re: [U2] Z_xxxxxxx not created

[Kevin King]

Thanks for all the insights everyone.  Most appreciated!
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Re: [U2] just a suggestion but ......

[Israel, John R.]

I agree.

I am also a little disappointed that nobody from Rocket has chimed in to this 
group.  I know they may not be able to say anything officially, but they ought 
to say SOMETHING!!!


John Israel
Senior Programmer/Analyst
Dayton Superior Corporation
721 Richard St.
Miamisburg, OH  45342
937-866-0711 x44380

-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of doug chanco
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 8:21 AM
To: 'U2 Users List'
Subject: [U2] just a suggestion but ..

does anyone besides me think that a new list rocketU2 or something could be
added to talk about rocket, so that this list can go back to being
technical?  I certainly think that people need to vent/express their opinion
about rocket/where u2 is going, if its dying (or not),  etc .. but maybe its
time to move thoes discussuions over to the community list or create a new
one specific to rocket/ the sale of U2

 

just a thought

 

dougc

 

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[U2] just a suggestion but ......

[doug chanco]

does anyone besides me think that a new list rocketU2 or something could be
added to talk about rocket, so that this list can go back to being
technical?  I certainly think that people need to vent/express their opinion
about rocket/where u2 is going, if its dying (or not),  etc .. but maybe its
time to move thoes discussuions over to the community list or create a new
one specific to rocket/ the sale of U2

 

just a thought

 

dougc

 

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Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[David Jordan]

Cache has evolved from the old Mumps environment.  This was a multidimensional 
flavor similar to PICK.  Intersystems bought out all the flavours of mumps to 
form the company today.  Mumps background was largely in health, so they are a 
major player in that industry.  However they have a range of markets and are 
OEM as much as U2 is.  I came upon cache being used for backing up student work 
at a private school, so it has a range of clients.  As cache was already 
multivalue, they added the PICK flavor to their flavors just like flavors on 
UniVerse.

What I like about Cache is that is provides competition in the Multivalue 
market.  If Oracle had the same level of competitive providers as the mv world 
has, they would not have got away with their price tag for so long.

David Jordan
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Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general

[Frank Eperjesi]

Not sure what the purpose of your email was, but please stick to facts

1) I did not say I knew Cache was a MV application.  I indicated I was not sure 
(see below) However, I did go to their web site and they say they are/were a 
high level "Application" provider for various medical record applications. It 
appears that is their major source of income.

Not sure why they developed Cache but it appears to be related heavily to te 
support their core application products (that make the big bucks).  If their 
old core product was not MV they are just another company who has decided to 
feed off the old MV installed base.  That is not necessary a bad thing, they 
may be a very good alternative, but it is what it is

http://www.intersystems.com/healthshare/index.html


P.S. In support of an older Pick client or ours that wanted to migrate to it, 
we are currently doing a conversion for that client to it.  The conversion  
seems fairly easy and trouble free from an OLD version of Pick. 



2) Jbase representatives when they originally approached me many, many, many 
years ago pretty much described the relationship between Temenos and Jbase just 
as I described it. The conglomerate that bought Jbase did so to insure that 
they had a platform that could run Temenos applications.  This included IBM 
platforms not supported by Pick or whoever. 

Jbase did exist before they were bought out and does still exist.  However it 
is a tool for corporate to save the value of their core Temenos applications 
that produces most of their income and allow their core application to run on 
huge IBM and other platforms that their Bank clients were insisting on.  As a 
data base it is lunch money to corporate.

P.S. It appears to be nice product with a lot of great features (I have no 
conversion experience) However, it is what it is.


Frank E. Eperjesi
Vice President
Business Automation, Inc.
(714) 998-6600 phone (714) 998-6170 Fax
 
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-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 6:03 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Problem with Multi-value market in general


> From: Doug Chanco
> Maybe they will hire apple's marketing dept. and in a 
> release or two down the line we'll have customers 
> standing in line to buy U2? They did it with iPhone so 
> I'm sure they can do it with U2

Actually a key difference here is the mindset of the people
offering the products as well as the mindset of the target
audience.  Apple thinks on a daily basis about tools like iPhone.
They market it to end-users who see obvious uses for the tools.
They make it relatively easy for developers to create and deploy
end-user solutions.  

But I have yet to see a single company express interest in
deploying MV-served functionality through an iPhone (real apps,
not browser), Blackberry, Android, or Palm, and even front-ending
an app with Windows Mobile is still seen as something exotic.
And we can do all of those today!  While many MV people use the
devices, the same people can't get their head around the benefits
of making their own applications available on them.  People
deploying apps on devices don't think of their apps as "MySQL"
apps or "SQL Server" apps, they're device apps, or just mobile
access points to business software.  Change the mindset of how
your company thinks about its applications, to focus on the
business offering, without the stigma of "well, it's Pick so I
can't use it with devices", and you'll be on a rocket toward
success without relying on some new company to make it happen for
you.

> From: Frank Eperjesi

> 2) Jbase (& I think Cache) are successful application 
> software companies that basically created their own 
> version of Multi-value to migrate to save their 
> investment.  I have not looked a Jbase in a while, but 
> Cache has some nice new features.

Part of that is incorrect.  I hope I can summarize this properly.

jBase International doesn't sell anything outside of the database
and related options - it's not an application company.  They are
owned by mPower1, who also owns Temenos, who has a successful
banking application built over a variant of jBase called T24.  So
it's their "sibling" that has