Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
Where noSQL falls down. Could you reprint this invoice for me? noSQL: Oh gee, reprinting is an application issue, I'll have to write some code to allow that, it may take 2 to 4 hours with testing. Pick; Sure we've been doing that for 30 years. Give me a minute. -Original Message- From: David Jordan da...@dacono.com.au To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Dec 16, 2011 9:41 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I have to pick you up on scaling. U2 scales really well there are some staggering performance test that have been done. U2 does things differently, but it does scale. An area that NOSQL databases are not demonstrating in what I have looked at, is the transactional processing and security that a commercial database requires. It is not to say that Rocket does not have some work to do in some areas, but I don't get that something new is the be all and end all and that something that is mature is outdated. I like to try and get the best out of both. David Jordan -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2011 1:38 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. Yes, the mv model can emulate a relational database. But, it you throw away the dict part of a file, the data is actually in a form of a document. And, if you go way back to the definition of a database model created for analysis - Entity-Relationship by Chen in the early 1980's, the mv model is very close to the ER model. So, if you add back the dictionaries, the database model could be a DDERDBMS - Dictionary Driven Entity-Relationship Data Base Management System. Anyway, whatever mongoDB classify themselves as, so should the PICK model. But then, U2 is not that well known, as it is not marketed to end users per se. It is an embedded database for VAR's. The focus is on the application, not the underlying database. This could be seen as a problem in some markets. So, it could be seen to be lost energy promoting the database to end users or developers within the nosql market as U2 is not open source, hence costs money, does not scale that well (sharding and/or federation) and is not really for high volume loads within a web service delivery environment. It's a good solid product for well established actively-promoted vertical market applications which need to extend to the surrounding I.T. ecosystem. Dawn Wolthuis wrote: I do disagree with this. If neo4j meets the not-determined criteria (except by marketing departments) then MV products do too. MV vendors might have suggested they are relational at varying points in their history (again marketing depts) but they do not meet Relational or at least SQL-only DBMS criteria. We are very much in the not-SQL-only camp whether we proclaim it or not. No product in that mix does everything. I put Tom del's nodal logo on a blog entry in 2006. It is someone in the MV space that has the nodal domains. We are NoSQL, no doubt, but we can decide to stay in our MV sandbox rather than joining the game if we so choose. --dawn - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Graph-DataBase-tp32982649p32989774.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
Regarding scaling, the MV DBMS I use advertises as highly scalable. Even if typical partitioning is not by sharding there are many ways in which databases can scale. People looking for non-SQL-only DBMS tools will have many and varied requirements --dawn Typed on a mobile keyboard On Dec 16, 2011, at 8:37 PM, DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) nab...@mvdbs.com wrote: I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. Yes, the mv model can emulate a relational database. But, it you throw away the dict part of a file, the data is actually in a form of a document. And, if you go way back to the definition of a database model created for analysis - Entity-Relationship by Chen in the early 1980's, the mv model is very close to the ER model. So, if you add back the dictionaries, the database model could be a DDERDBMS - Dictionary Driven Entity-Relationship Data Base Management System. Anyway, whatever mongoDB classify themselves as, so should the PICK model. But then, U2 is not that well known, as it is not marketed to end users per se. It is an embedded database for VAR's. The focus is on the application, not the underlying database. This could be seen as a problem in some markets. So, it could be seen to be lost energy promoting the database to end users or developers within the nosql market as U2 is not open source, hence costs money, does not scale that well (sharding and/or federation) and is not really for high volume loads within a web service delivery environment. It's a good solid product for well established actively-promoted vertical market applications which need to extend to the surrounding I.T. ecosystem. Dawn Wolthuis wrote: I do disagree with this. If neo4j meets the not-determined criteria (except by marketing departments) then MV products do too. MV vendors might have suggested they are relational at varying points in their history (again marketing depts) but they do not meet Relational or at least SQL-only DBMS criteria. We are very much in the not-SQL-only camp whether we proclaim it or not. No product in that mix does everything. I put Tom del's nodal logo on a blog entry in 2006. It is someone in the MV space that has the nodal domains. We are NoSQL, no doubt, but we can decide to stay in our MV sandbox rather than joining the game if we so choose. --dawn - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Graph-DataBase-tp32982649p32989771.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
Comments below... -Original Message- From: DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) [nab...@mvdbs.com] Date: 12/16/2011 09:37 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. parts snipped From the horse's mouth - IE, Codd and Date themselves, relational is a MODEL. There are not STRICT definitions. The current and widespread interpretation is different from the intentions set out way back when by those designing the model. CD also acknowledged that the relational model was not (and is not) perfect. And I quote... Pick is the best implementation of what the relational model tried to accomplish - Dr. Nathan Goodman, VP Codd and Date International. And yes, I have met with Codd, Date and Goodman on this very issue. This argument reminds me of those interpreting an artist's paintings... this was painted during so-n-so's blue period... he was distraught and depressed... you can tell this from his choice of colors. Well, maybe the artist just ran out of red paint... or perhaps, the artist took advantage of a fire sale at the corner DIY art supply store. In the Pick/U2/MV model, we're mainly dealing with business applications. As such, the more relevant questions shouldn't revolve around relational, but instead does x model allow an application to perform well, adjust easily to a company's changing needs, provide a robust, performant, and easy to maintain environment, etc. Most importantly, does i model allow a company to focus on, and increase the bottom line of their business. It really shouldn't be about one technology vs another. -Laura ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Presentation on Python to UniVerse
No other software is required to make this work - except the intercall library and python. But, to help with the python coding, there is ctypesgen - https://code.google.com/p/ctypesgen/ - which will create a python to intcall library. The other files, intcall.h and the *.so files are free from Rocket and supplied with UV. See the InterCall documentation. Good luck. djm George Gallen-2 wrote: We are running UV 10.1 on RHEL. Do you know if it will interface with this level? Is there any other software (licenses) required to allow the interface to work? - Learn and Do Excel and Share http://mvdbs.com http://mvdbs.com -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Presentation-on-Python-to-UniVerse-tp32983185p32995017.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
In your quote from Dr Goodman, for what exact source are you quoting. I would like to include that quote with a link in one on articles. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
Hi Laura, I agree 100%. I think many have lost sight of the fact that customers don't care what their software runs on, or what it's written in, just whether it solves their business problems. Have a wonderful Christmas! Charlie Noah Charles W. Noah Associates cwn...@comcast.net http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlienoah The views and opinions expressed herein are my own (Charlie Noah) and do not necessarily reflect the views, positions or policies of any of my former, current or future employers, employees, clients, friends, enemies or anyone else who might take exception to them. On 12-17-2011 12:09 PM, Laura Hirsh wrote: Comments below... -Original Message- From: DavidJMurray (mvdbs.com) [nab...@mvdbs.com] Date: 12/16/2011 09:37 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Graph DataBase I also, to some extent, agree with Dawn. The mv, NF**2, post relational, PICK, or whatever the correct model name is, it is not a relational database. There are very strict definitions to a relational database, namely, but not complete, normalisation, SQL, joins etc. parts snipped From the horse's mouth - IE, Codd and Date themselves, relational is a MODEL. There are not STRICT definitions. The current and widespread interpretation is different from the intentions set out way back when by those designing the model. CD also acknowledged that the relational model was not (and is not) perfect. And I quote... Pick is the best implementation of what the relational model tried to accomplish - Dr. Nathan Goodman, VP Codd and Date International. And yes, I have met with Codd, Date and Goodman on this very issue. This argument reminds me of those interpreting an artist's paintings... this was painted during so-n-so's blue period... he was distraught and depressed... you can tell this from his choice of colors. Well, maybe the artist just ran out of red paint... or perhaps, the artist took advantage of a fire sale at the corner DIY art supply store. In the Pick/U2/MV model, we're mainly dealing with business applications. As such, the more relevant questions shouldn't revolve around relational, but instead does x model allow an application to perform well, adjust easily to a company's changing needs, provide a robust, performant, and easy to maintain environment, etc. Most importantly, does i model allow a company to focus on, and increase the bottom line of their business. It really shouldn't be about one technology vs another. -Laura ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Graph DataBase
From: Laura Hirsh ... Most importantly, does i model allow a company to focus on, and increase the bottom line of their business. It really shouldn't be about one technology vs another. Laura hit it on the head. There's all of this rhetoric about where MV is best positioned. But even outside of the NoSQL ecosystem, other databases are just out there evangelizing their platform. While people in the MV market try to figure out if MV fits a specific NoSQL niche definition, there's still no marketing outside of the already established base. If people don't see MV anywhere but on a NoSQL web page, it's going to be regarded as just another unworthy curiosity - the way any of us would gloss over a NoSQL database that we've never heard of. If the MV DBMS vendors just put the platform out there, we won't need to worry about where it fits; people will categorize it where they see fit. That's the way real grassroots movements like NoSQL work, a concept largely forgotten in this community. And while I give the DBMS vendors grief about lack of marketing, this community is as guilty of it as they are. Grassroots, a concept that used to be closely associated with us, means it comes from the community, not just the vendor upline. T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
